Primer question, one coat enough before BW paint? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 13 Old 05-18-2015, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Primer question, one coat enough before BW paint?

All,

I've been busy over the last week skim coating and sanding my wall to an incredibly smooth finish.

I rolled a coat of KILZ2 primer today.

With a pure white screen, I can see slight roller lines. With normal room light and no projector, I can see just a hint of roller lines (more / less primer coverage). The entire wall is covered and very smooth.

I plan on a Dover Gray (N7.3) mixed 4:1 with AAA-F for a BW paint job.
I'll be using Sherwin Williams Duration Interior paint.

I'm betting that I don't need to bother with a second coat of primer and that the Gray will hide the very slight color variation in the primer coat.

Thoughts?

AJ


ps: I used the primed wall for viewing tonight and it was great as soon as it was dry.

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post #2 of 13 Old 05-18-2015, 09:37 PM
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Metallic paint mixes almost always show rollermarks more noticeably than plain flat/matte or primer, so it might be worth doing a second coat of primer as both practice and to even-out any thinner spots from the first coat.
Use a 1/4"nap roller and make sure to give the roller a full rotation on each end onto the pan's washboard surface to help avoid extra build-up on the roller's edges. That'll keep rollermarks to a minimum.

After the second primer coat, make sure the new surface is smooth..sanding if necessary, because slightly bumped out rollermarks or orangepeel-texture will show up through the screen.

Here's a video showing the edge-rolling which helps avoid rollermarks:

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 05-18-2015 at 09:48 PM.
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post #3 of 13 Old 05-19-2015, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I've watched your video and read the zillion screen painting and discussion threads.

The surface is extremely smooth, I looked over it all with a flashlight on an angle and only found 2 small (1-2") spots that had any kind of texture and 3 pin head size holes (I think from bubbles). So for a 9' wide wall, that was pretty amazing to me.

I was trying not to get too much primer on the wall and ended up with some lighter areas (but zero runs/sags).

I'll put a second coat on this afternoon and paint tomorrow.

Regarding roller direction for a wall, what should be the direction of the final paint coat? Vertical or horizontal?

I'm also debating about just buying a small HVLP gun to shoot the paint.

Thanks again,
AJ

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post #4 of 13 Old 05-19-2015, 07:37 AM
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I've always liked rolling vertical (top-to-bottom) to avoid running the roller too thin on paint partway through the row...since screens are a good deal shorter than they are wide.

The video was technically sideways, but I prefer to think of it as rolling a 2-3ft section of a screen that's 4ft tall. Makes it more similar to rolling a 100" screen instead of a 50" one that way. If that makes any sense.

I've heard of pretty decent success rates for both rolling and spraying, so I wouldn't personally spend the money on a $99 sprayer just yet.
If you're okay spending the extra money and taking some time to practice with it, I suppose it wouldn't hurt anything, not once you're good and comfortable.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #5 of 13 Old 05-20-2015, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I painted the screen today. Sherwin Williams Duration Interior Latex, Matte in Dover Grey color mixed 4:1 with AAA-F.

I did a quick calibration using the AVSHD calibration disk (brightness, Contrast, Color Sat and Tint).

The colors look great and plenty bright considering how dark grey it is.

The screen has a little orange peel from the roller and I am hoping a second coat tomorrow will smooth it out a little.

I can see the texture on bright images that are moving across the screen (don't know if there is a name for seeing this texture).

I'm new to projectors, so am not sure what to measure my picture against, but if a second coat will eliminate a little of the texture, I'll be extremely happy with the results.

I can barely notice a bright center on pure white images. I'd call it a minimal 'hot spot', except it is barely noticeable and only on very bright images.

The picture is very good and much better than my previous rear projector TV.

BTW: I had all the windows open today and had no problem watching TV at 118" diagonal. I watched parts of several movies and they were all watchable, but having the drapes closed made it better.

The AAA-F darkened my paint just a little. I'd be happy to make samples for anyone that wants to measure them. I can make samples with and without AAA-F.

AJ

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post #6 of 13 Old 05-20-2015, 05:30 PM
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The Orange peel will not go away if you paint over it. It needs sanding, and you need to use a lower nap roller carefully to avoid more orange peel.

The "Texture' your seeing is actually the Graininess of the Aluminum. (...and compounded/enhanced by the Orange Peel texture....) When mixed into the Grey, the brighter areas of the Aluminum particles stand out, and also make the darker areas more predominant. Many call this effect the "Dirty Screen" look. Most apparent during panning scenes that have lighter pastels (sky), larger white areas, and skin tones during close ups.

I'm glad your pleased, but your results show that with even a 1/5" ratio Aluminum to paint, granularity issues are still present. Frankly, mixing AAA into a pure, Flat white of a neutral nature is the only "best" application for the stuff. And rolling.....well, when your dealing with "particles" the best application method has been, and always will be spraying. Even the progenitors of the use of Aluminum (AAA) long ago stopped suggesting rolling the stuff unless there was no choice to do otherwise.

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post #7 of 13 Old 05-20-2015, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The Orange peel will not go away if you paint over it. It needs sanding, and you need to use a lower nap roller carefully to avoid more orange peel.

The "Texture' your seeing is actually the Graininess of the Aluminum. (...and compounded/enhanced by the Orange Peel texture....) When mixed into the Grey, the brighter areas of the Aluminum particles stand out, and also make the darker areas more predominant. Many call this effect the "Dirty Screen" look. Most apparent during panning scenes that have lighter pastels (sky), larger white areas, and skin tones during close ups.

I'm glad your pleased, but your results show that with even a 1/5" ratio Aluminum to paint, granularity issues are still present. Frankly, mixing AAA into a pure, Flat white of a neutral nature is the only "best" application for the stuff. And rolling.....well, when your dealing with "particles" the best application method has been, and always will be spraying. Even the progenitors of the use of Aluminum (AAA) long ago stopped suggesting rolling the stuff unless there was no choice to do otherwise.
Thanks, actually it might not be orange peel then, as I can't really feel it at all. I used a high quality 1/4" roller. Wish I'd read the info you presented prior to painting, as I'd have no trouble purchasing an HVLP machine or going to a little lower ratio.

What type of Sanding is recommended to make it perfectly smooth again? Wet sanding (I assume after several days/weeks to completely dry?)

AJ

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post #8 of 13 Old 05-20-2015, 06:30 PM
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Orange Peel bad enough to have a actual "Tactile feel" would be horrible.

Usually it is just the appearance that happens when paint does not flow and meld evenly and instead drys unevenly. Orange Peel can manifest itself even when spraying if too much paint is applied and it drys too slowly.

You can use a 10" x 1" x 3" Large Fine/Medium Grit Combo sponge found in the Drywall tool section at Home Depot. If the surface feels 'almost smooth" you only have to sand it until if feels "slippery smooth". Dry sand only. Afterward, diluting the Primer to the specific thinness so that it will spray out evenly, you will want to re-prime. You could omit that, but spray priming over the mottled surface you will have after sanding can only improve the end results of the Finish coats.

Also, remember that spraying correctly to obtain a ultra smooth surface involves Dusting....very light, quickly applied coats that have a 70% overlap of each row. The coats are each very sparse, and dry quickly, and you get even coverage only after 5-6 coats and are done after 7-8 coats. Sounds like a lot, but the coats will dry under good conditions in only 30 minutes. Less if additional hear and a fan are used.

Questions? Ask 'em first...squirt last.

Here is an economy HVLP Gun. http://www.amazon.com/1000ml-Electri...iglink20246-20

Oh yeah...simply lighten up the Dover Grey / AAA with about 20% additional White. It'll help out a lot!

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Last edited by MississippiMan; 05-20-2015 at 06:48 PM.
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post #9 of 13 Old 05-20-2015, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Oh yeah...simply lighten up the Dover Grey / AAA with about 20% additional White. It'll help out a lot!
Maybe I just punt on the AAA-F and repaint with straight Dover Grey. That is what I used on my test panel (stood it up against the wall on a cheap 1x4" frame/legs).

I'm probably being too critical, considering it's only been about 8 hours since I painted it. I just watched some hocky and baseball and when I "watch the game", all is good. When I "watch the screen", I wonder if I could make it better. It's just a little of my OCD coming through!

Thanks again,

AJ

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post #10 of 13 Old 05-20-2015, 06:56 PM
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That is how many "see it".

Often when a screen looks really good on almost all counts, one often cannot but focus on the 1 aspect that is "less than perfect'.

Gain induced via the use of metallic content usually brings along it's usual caveats with it's advantages. Advanced mixes aspire to address and overcome every possible consideration, and come damnably close to doing so, yet still, somehow, someway, there is always gonna be someone who can...and will find fault in one aspect or another. If not the actual performance, then it's what was needed to be done to acheive such.

You are the final judge, and until you are either fortunate or unlucky enough to see a screen that shows the difference between what you have now and what might be possible, just settle back and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

................and above all else, avoid reading any more Threads !!!!!!!

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post #11 of 13 Old 05-21-2015, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Update on painted wall screen.

Well after drying for 24 hours, the screen is actually better!

I can't see the 'dirty screen' except on really light images (like entire panning skies etc.), even then it isn't as bad as yesterday.

We used it all day with the curtains open and had no trouble watching sports, news etc.

I love watching baseball on 118" from 11' away! My wife likes it smaller 95", as her eyes get tired.

We watched a movie last night full size and had no trouble with eye fatigue, as it was the wider aspect blu-ray, so the image was shorter than the 16:9

Thanks all again,

AJ

Epson 5030UBe
118" Painted wall (Black Widow) (Dover Grey mixed 4:1 with AAA-F)
Marantz SR-6010 amp
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post #12 of 13 Old 05-22-2015, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJPeacock View Post
Well after drying for 24 hours, the screen is actually better!

I can't see the 'dirty screen' except on really light images (like entire panning skies etc.), even then it isn't as bad as yesterday.

We used it all day with the curtains open and had no trouble watching sports, news etc.

I love watching baseball on 118" from 11' away! My wife likes it smaller 95", as her eyes get tired.

We watched a movie last night full size and had no trouble with eye fatigue, as it was the wider aspect blu-ray, so the image was shorter than the 16:9

Thanks all again,

AJ

That's good news! Somehow I didn't really register that the paint was that fresh. In my own projects, I usually judge them by what they look like within 1-2 hours after drying to the touch...knowing full well that as they dry more thoroughly and cure out they only improve. Rolled paint can take 2-3 weeks at least before it becomes "cured".

Had I known (sic. realized) I would have suggested a period of watchful hopefulness.

As far as Orange Peel texture, that however doesn't disappear with time. But by your own description it seems to be a minor issue and not grossly apparent.

I strongly suggest you stop looking for the Granularity. Watch some engrossing dark movies...several in a row. Forget you ever read anything about "granularity" A sad realization is that once presented with such a thing on what is otherwise seemingly perfect, all too often it becomes intolerable.

Very glad your where you hoped you would be!

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post #13 of 13 Old 06-16-2015, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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650 hour update (with pictures)

We've spent enough time with the projector and the painted wall screen (BW) to give an update.

I read a lot of these items prior to getting our first projector, but first hand experience is a great teacher.
  1. Best screen size depends a LOT on content being viewed.
  2. Large/projected images really highlight the shortcomings of source material (DVD and Cable isn't all that good!)
  3. The impact that Ambient light has on the image REALLY depends on what you are watching. Baseball, News etc. are easily watched in a very bright room. Movies need a darker environment to bring out the subtlties in the picture.

From a viewing distance of 12', I like to watch baseball/hockey at maximum size 118". TV sitcoms/drama's etc, we like a bit smaller (95"). In fact, we typically have the image size around 95" diagonal all day, then when we watch sports or movies, we expand it to 118"

Here are some pictures with the image at full size. I decided to take them from an oblique angle to show the worst perspective. These pictures are with the curtains open in the afternoon (typical daytime ambient conditions). You can see in a couple of the darker pictures, the amount of 'wash out' that is present on the left side of the picture.

According to all the calculators, these pictures are taken too close to the screen (about 9' from right edge) for a 1080p projected image of 118" diagonal. Pictures are all hand held.










Thanks,
AJ
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Epson 5030UBe
118" Painted wall (Black Widow) (Dover Grey mixed 4:1 with AAA-F)
Marantz SR-6010 amp
Thiel CS .5 front speakers
SVS SB13-Ultra
Polk Audio Center Channel Speaker (CS 350)
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