Carl's Ambient Light Rejecting? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 294 Old 01-22-2016, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypermotard View Post
It looks nice dude! I have 2 questions as I am new to all this. Do your cross braces actually touch the screen material?Also is the frame painted underneath where it touches the screen material? I read somewhere (on painted screens I believe) that it is recommended to not let the cross bracing touch the screen surface, but I am unsure if that matters when using this screen material. Thank you.
Good questions. No, my frame doesn't touch the material, except of course right at the very edges. I'd say if this is a concern, sanding the field of the frame directly behind the material down 1/8" or so should create a bit of a "bowl" for the material to span across. Of course, don't sand the very edges to allow that to be the "high points".

Frame is not painted.

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post #92 of 294 Old 01-22-2016, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mishari84 View Post
I tested Cinegrey 5D and was very impressed, but unfortunately it not available.

- It was as bright as a white material at the right setup ( angular setup).
- bright enough in non-ideal setup, but much better contrast and details than white material.
- Maintains contrast in a great deal in very lit room.
- No washout out in a darkroom with light walls, unlike white material.

If Carl's ALR has those benefits I will jump on it.
I think I read somewhere cinegrey 5d is rated at 1.5 gain, folks here seem to be suggesting carls is rated about 1.0 gain or so. It looks like the cg5d material is available here in 140" size:

http://www.focusedtechnology.com/eli...FRCGaQodaI0KSg
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post #93 of 294 Old 01-22-2016, 03:01 PM
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I think actual 3rd-party measurement put the Cinegrey5D closer to 1.0gain...I remember it turned out way below Elites claim (then again, so does the Carl's it seems). I'd bet their gains are more alike than different.

They're both pretty dark-colored materials, but it'd be great if someone with samples or screens or some mix of each could compare them side-by-side.
I kind of feel like the Carl's looks darker-colored in pictures, but that's a pretty meaningless thing unless the picture has both materials side-by-side or in a really directly comparable situation.

In practically all sizes the Carl's is a little to a lot cheaper.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #94 of 294 Old 01-22-2016, 08:21 PM
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I read through the entire cinegrey5d thread, someone tested it and claims about 1.3 gain at center and 1.0 gain at sides. I also read through a ton of painted screen threads.I wonder if a thin coating of clear matte poly might help reduce the gain on the alr screen with a shorter throw projector, especially in the middle of the screen where it is reflecting light the strongest?
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post #95 of 294 Old 01-27-2016, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypermotard View Post
I read through the entire cinegrey5d thread, someone tested it and claims about 1.3 gain at center and 1.0 gain at sides. I also read through a ton of painted screen threads.I wonder if a thin coating of clear matte poly might help reduce the gain on the alr screen with a shorter throw projector, especially in the middle of the screen where it is reflecting light the strongest?
This is the second time I've read about this poly business on an ALR screen. I understand your thought process but you have to realize if the screen had no gain, it would just be a dark gray screen. You might as well just paint a flat dark gray screen if you want to take away the angular artifacts.
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post #96 of 294 Old 02-03-2016, 10:14 AM
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I got my Carl's alr up on the frame and on the wall. Blacks ate better. No Hotspot or glare. great with lights on or off. Very happy.
I still have a ways to go before I am finished. I still have to install the rest of the back lighting kit and raise the screen up a few inches.
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post #97 of 294 Old 02-20-2016, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sharpshiell View Post
I got my Carl's alr up on the frame and on the wall. Blacks ate better. No Hotspot or glare. great with lights on or off. Very happy.
I still have a ways to go before I am finished. I still have to install the rest of the back lighting kit and raise the screen up a few inches.
Looks good but a bit dark. What projector are you using? Is this standard light output mode?


I just ordered a HW40ES and some Carls ALR so im hoping it doesn't turn out to dark for nighttime viewing. If it does I will have to go with a dual screen route.
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post #98 of 294 Old 02-20-2016, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by H4lfbr33d View Post
Looks good but a bit dark. What projector are you using? Is this standard light output mode?


I just ordered a HW40ES and some Carls ALR so im hoping it doesn't turn out to dark for nighttime viewing. If it does I will have to go with a dual screen route.

Thanks I'm using an Epson 6030ub. The pictures don't do it justice they look really good but a whole lot better in person. The blacks look black but not too dark like when it's on a scene and somebody has a black coat it looks black but you can still make out the buttons and stuff it doesn't just look like a black spot like some TVs do if that makes sense. I am a plasma guy and all my plasmas were way too black when I first got them until I had them calibrated


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post #99 of 294 Old 02-20-2016, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H4lfbr33d View Post
Looks good but a bit dark. What projector are you using? Is this standard light output mode?


I just ordered a HW40ES and some Carls ALR so im hoping it doesn't turn out to dark for nighttime viewing. If it does I will have to go with a dual screen route.

I just looked up your projector and noticed I took my samples and we put them on that exact same projector at my friends shop he's got one on one of the show floors. It looked pretty good. We put this material next to Black diamond screen sample and couldn't notice much difference between the two. When I drive back there I'm going to get that black diamond sample from him and do some more comparison shots


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post #100 of 294 Old 02-20-2016, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Vrgs13 View Post
I just looked up your projector and noticed I took my samples and we put them on that exact same projector at my friends shop he's got one on one of the show floors. It looked pretty good. We put this material next to Black diamond screen sample and couldn't notice much difference between the two. When I drive back there I'm going to get that black diamond sample from him and do some more comparison shots


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That is reassuring. Thanks for your input.
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post #101 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 11:56 AM
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I've heard it said and believed myself that CarlsALR has no orientation requirements (is supposed to look the same rightsideup, upsidedown or sideways), BUT I immediately noticed my sample of CarlsALR has a visibly wider viewing-cone (horizontally) when the sample is positioned portrait instead of landscape.

I noticed the same thing with Carl's Silver.

This seems to suggest both materials have optical screen properties that can be taken advantage of depending if you require more horizontal rejection and wider vertical viewing OR more vertical rejection and wider horizontal viewing, BUT I'm not sure the typical orientation the screen is normally cut and sold for...I suspect it's normally designed for wider horizontal viewing and stronger vertical rejection because that would benefit the largest amount of users, but that's just guessing based on how the sample labels are oriented.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #102 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I've heard it said and believed myself that CarlsALR has no orientation requirements (is supposed to look the same rightsideup, upsidedown or sideways), BUT I immediately noticed my sample of CarlsALR has a visibly wider viewing-cone (horizontally) when the sample is positioned portrait instead of landscape.

I noticed the same thing with Carl's Silver.

This seems to suggest both materials have optical screen properties that can be taken advantage of depending if you require more horizontal rejection and wider vertical viewing OR more vertical rejection and wider horizontal viewing, BUT I'm not sure the typical orientation the screen is normally cut and sold for...I suspect it's normally designed for wider horizontal viewing and stronger vertical rejection because that would benefit the largest amount of users, but that's just guessing based on how the sample labels are oriented.
Have you done any comparison with your production/in use screen?
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post #103 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NU_FTW View Post
Have you done any comparison with your production/in use screen?
I've done some comparison now with a few different paint-mixes and my white screen.

I also found out the CarlsALR screens using the 118inches-width or slightly less (and Carl's Silver at 126inches-width or slightly less) will have wider horizontal brightness and more aggressive vertical rejection while the screens over that width or at/below half that width will have a wider vertical brightness and more aggessive horizontal rejection.
This means those looking for the widest horizontal viewing cone can benefit from sticking toward the 135"-16:9 and 128"-2.39 sizes of Carl'sALR.

The difference isn't night'n'day, but it IS visible and worth it if you're able.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #104 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I've done some comparison now with a few different paint-mixes and my white screen.

I also found out the CarlsALR screens using the 118inches-width or slightly less (and Carl's Silver at 126inches-width or slightly less) will have wider horizontal brightness and more aggressive vertical rejection while the screens over that width or at/below half that width will have a wider vertical brightness and more aggessive horizontal rejection.
This means those looking for the widest horizontal viewing cone can benefit from sticking toward the 135"-16:9 and 128"-2.39 sizes of Carl'sALR.

The difference isn't night'n'day, but it IS visible and worth it if you're able.
i have found that hanging the sample horizontally makes the screen look even worse with even more dimming than vertical orientation. There is also no documentation to state that the sample should be hung horizontally. Given the orientation of the print on the back one would assume vertical orientation is what the screen material represents when you receive a large scale sample from Carls place.
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post #105 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I also found out the CarlsALR screens using the 118inches-width or slightly less (and Carl's Silver at 126inches-width or slightly less) will have wider horizontal brightness and more aggressive vertical rejection while the screens over that width or at/below half that width will have a wider vertical brightness and more aggessive horizontal rejection.
This means those looking for the widest horizontal viewing cone can benefit from sticking toward the 135"-16:9 and 128"-2.39 sizes of Carl'sALR.
Is this confirmed by Carl's Place? I am considering their material and if this is true, I want to order the correct size.

Also, I received a sample of the Cinegrey 5D material today. I don't have a PJ to test it with at the moment but it looks almost identical to the Carls ALR with slightly more texture. Carl's may be slightly darker but its hard to tell.
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post #106 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:32 PM
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This is an 8.5ft-wide flat-white painted screen using an LG pa75u projector at about 12ft throw (around 1.4:1 throw-ratio).
The room is mostly dark-colored and while the ceiling light is on, it has a sheild that helps keep the most intense light off the screen.
The samples are centered left/right and the pictures are taken from the height where the sample is giving maximum brightness.
While the on-axis shots where taken from about 1:1 seating-distance:screen-width, the off-axis shots where taken from almost 1.2:1 seating-distance:screen-width ratio.


Starting with a reference point, this is Carls Flexi-White, on-axis from about 8.5ft back..note it has been measured previously at slightly above 1.0gain, I believe.


Here is the same centered Carls Flexi-White sample from about 10ft-back, even with the screen's edge (about 23degrees off-axis)...Note how it has dimmed slightly in relation to the white background screen:



Carl's ALR material is likewise able to reach slightly above 1.0gain on-axis:



This is the kind of dimming you might expect for those seated beside (left/right of) a center position. This is about 2.3ft off-center and about 10ft-back:



And here is Carl's ALR from a position in-line with the screen's edge and about 10ft-back (roughly 23degrees off-axis) similar to where a 4'th and 5'th seat position might be..two seats away from the center seat:



This is Carl's ALR from the 8.5ft-back on-axis position with an 800lumen lamp positioned 4ft right of the screen's center, about 2ft down and 2ft back:
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #107 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by aerodynamics View Post
Is this confirmed by Carl's Place? I am considering their material and if this is true, I want to order the correct size.

Also, I received a sample of the Cinegrey 5D material today. I don't have a PJ to test it with at the moment but it looks almost identical to the Carls ALR with slightly more texture. Carl's may be slightly darker but its hard to tell.
Yes, I called them and they put me on hold for a while to double-check how the samples are cut. The samples are 11"x8.5" and the portrait position (not landscape) is where the horizontal brightness is benefitted..and they confirmed the samples are pulled 11" from the roll meaning the screen-WIDTH of 118" or slightly less will be at the same orientation as the sample when the sample is in the portrait position.

I'm pretty impressed with how dark yet smooth-looking the Carl's ALR sample is..the extra horizontal gain is a bonus I really did not expect.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #108 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:39 PM
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2 posts since i posted pictures of my older sample of Carls ALR i am sitting in my couch left hand side of couch which is 90" wide 11 feet from screen screen is 110" (126" diag.) wide that is with the sample horizontal which to me looks worse than it does vertical. The sample is taped to a thin cardboard for keeping it flat if you are wondering what is causing the bright reflections at the edges that is the tape on the surface of carls taping to the cardboard. And of course the entire screen i am shooting on is Black Flame X1i
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post #109 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NU_FTW View Post
2 posts since i posted pictures of my older sample of Carls ALR i am sitting in my couch left hand side of couch which is 90" wide 11 feet from screen screen is 110" (126" diag.) wide that is with the sample horizontal which to me looks worse than it does vertical. The sample is taped to a thin cardboard for keeping it flat if you are wondering what is causing the bright reflections at the edges that is the tape on the surface of carls taping to the cardboard. And of course the entire screen i am shooting on is Black Flame X1i
You seem to be seeing the same thing I am..the portrait (vertical) positioned sample allows the Carl'sALR a wider horizontal viewing-cone.

Do you happen to have any ambient-light shots comparing the two without the projector on?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #110 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 06:56 PM
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not at the moment i was just snapping quick photos with my Galaxy S4 when i get my other samples in and i do my ALR testing in my thread i will have such photos with my nice camera. Should also mention that the vertical viewing sucks if my screen were higher it would be worse for the carls alr sample vertical. For me knowing the amount of dimming going on that is just not acceptable.
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post #111 of 294 Old 03-16-2016, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Yes, I called them and they put me on hold for a while to double-check how the samples are cut. The samples are 11"x8.5" and the portrait position (not landscape) is where the horizontal brightness is benefitted..and they confirmed the samples are pulled 11" from the roll meaning the screen-WIDTH of 118" or slightly less will be at the same orientation as the sample when the sample is in the portrait position.

I'm pretty impressed with how dark yet smooth-looking the Carl's ALR sample is..the extra horizontal gain is a bonus I really did not expect.
Thanks. I'm planning on a 100" 16:9 screen so either of those sizes would work for me.

Agree on the smoothness. It was hard to tell which side was which as others have experienced. The Cinegrey 5d is more easily distinguishable due to the increased texture. In general does texture lead to sparkling?
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post #112 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 01:12 AM
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Thanks. I'm planning on a 100" 16:9 screen so either of those sizes would work for me.

Agree on the smoothness. It was hard to tell which side was which as others have experienced. The Cinegrey 5d is more easily distinguishable due to the increased texture. In general does texture lead to sparkling?
It does look to e like the back-side is a little more glossy while the front is made to avoid overt hot-spotting...now I'll have to goof with it setup backwards at some point, thanks.

Texture leading to sparkling:
In general I'd say so, yes. If the material is really matte/low-gloss or the texture is either very tiny or shallow on a more glossy material (which I guess would technically mean there's LESS perceivable texture) then it can hide well, but that's basically just saying plain-flat/matte and certain slight texture is fine..so it ends up being "yes" again.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #113 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 02:15 AM
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Messed with the CarlsALR material using the more glossy-looking backside facing forward using the same positions/setup as described above.
The material appears to be a little dimmer than it was forward facing at ~23degrees off-axis:


,perhaps a touch brighter than it was forward-facing at about 10ft-back/2.3ft-right/left:


, and climbs to almost roughly the same brightness as the Silver sample by the time you reach center/on-axis which is MUCH brighter than it was forward-facing.


I can also confirm the steeper gain-slope continues down to the farther/farthest off-axis points where the screen is able to hold a black-level advantage VS angled incoming ambient light noticeably deeper compared to its already terrific front-facing performance.

IF there's a projector with a naturally long-enough throw (so it can help avoid hot-spotting) and IF the CarlsALR backside is free of visible blemishes (my sample is but I can't say whether or not that's normal for full-size pieces), then it MAY be possible to make a very very aggressive and high gain light-rejecting screen by using the CarlsALR material with the reverse/wrong side facing forward.

I don't know what throw-ratio would allow the uniformity to reach a point where most wouldn't find it to be a problem, but the viewing-cone width itself holds about the same out to around 23degrees which should be good for many common seating arrangements and I like that the reverse side doesn't seem to sparkle despite the added gain..so that's neat.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 03-17-2016 at 02:49 AM. Reason: Added Pictures
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post #114 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 03:15 AM
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Sorry for the frequent updating/flooding.
Barring the camera's tendancy tendency to make hot/warm-spotting appear worse in photos than it does in-person, and ignoring the added grain from the pictures (it actually looks really smooth), here are some on-axis shots that may give a rough idea of the uniformity differences between portrait/landscape samples (aka, portrait samples represent 135"-16:9 or 128"-2.39 and whatever the second smallest size of 4:3 is while landscape represents most other sizes of the CarlsALR material).

This is the correct facing using portrait orientation:



This is the correct facing using the landscape orientation:



This is the incorrect/back-side facing in a portrait orientation:



Finally, here's the incorrect/back-side facing in the landscape orientation. Here you'll note the significantly more visible dimming toward the left/right sides:



Want to know what the real "kicker" is with these photos? ..they're all using a fairly short ~1.35:1 throw-ratio (distance:width); nothing particularly long or special.
I was kind of expecting it to hotspot like the sun off a car's hood, but it looks even better in person than these photos by a decent ways.
mind. blown.


Anyone remember that awesome build-thread a few weeks ago where someone built a Flexi-White screen using a standard wood frame and held the material on by wrapping it around the frame, folding the edges and clipping a few adjustable bungee cords across the back to hold the material on and tight? Somebody NEEDS to try the 135"/128" CarlsALR incorrect/back-side forward in a similarly painless way.
Deeper blacks, brighter whites, surprisingly good uniformity and no sparkles.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #115 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 05:31 AM
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For all of your test images what is your lens to screen distance, what is the size of each projected image??
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post #116 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NU_FTW View Post
For all of your test images what is your lens to screen distance, what is the size of each projected image??
Since all the previous ones were listed I'm guessing you mean the last four sample shots?
Those were the ~1.35:1 throw-ratio with the screen-width being the sample's portrait orientation width, using the Aaxa p300 dimmed down until the camera could capture an image without needing a shutter speed so fast it would cause really obvious colorwheel/LED separation...though one or two of the photos still have it in a slight amount.

That'd put the width at around 8.5"-9" which would put the distance at about 11.5"-12" lens-to-screen.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 03-17-2016 at 09:13 AM.
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post #117 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 08:40 AM
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With a projector so close/so small there is no way to truely test that material on such a small scale....
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post #118 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NU_FTW View Post
With a projector so close/so small there is no way to truely test that material on such a small scale....
What makes you believe that?

While the shrunken proportions DO increase the available ftL and the close-up increases the likelihood of seeing a small texture/scratch flaw you may otherwise not see at standard distance, the throw-ratio and orientation stays the same and so does the relative uniformity between shots.

Can you explain what the small size is or may be messing up?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #119 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NU_FTW View Post
With a projector so close/so small there is no way to truely test that material on such a small scale....
I'd think it would be fine as long as you could keep the relative brightness of the screen and the throw ratio the same as it would be at a more standard size, no?
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post #120 of 294 Old 03-17-2016, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
What makes you believe that?

While the shrunken proportions DO increase the available ftL and the close-up increases the likelihood of seeing a small texture/scratch flaw you may otherwise not see at standard distance, the throw-ratio and orientation stays the same and so does the relative uniformity between shots.

Can you explain what the small size is or may be messing up?
it would be much harder to show the amount of dimming going on not to mention you never said the orientation of the pj i would imagine since you are doing this so small it is not ceiling mounted either. You will be putting more light in a confined space so it wont be representative of what one could expect with the angle from the projector to the edge of the screen being much greater...
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