Carl's Ambient Light Rejecting? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 294 Old 02-01-2017, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rdlightning01 View Post
Really want to try this screen out, Wanted it by super bowl. But about to pull the trigger last night and seen carl doesnt recommend alr on short throw projectors.
Would like someones opinion if they think this screen material would work for me. I have a lot of ambient light and a benq 1080st projector. I wish i would of got a 1070 now. but didnt know much at the time of purchasing.
BenQ 1080st 7' throw 135" currently on white-silver back milskin spandex
Ordered last night carls flexi white and considered the paint on it option
What should i do?
Thanks
I've seen people start getting mixed opinions about Carl's ALR at a bit longer throw-ratio than the 1080st offers, and it is a fairly aggressive screen. I wouldn't recommend using Carl's ALR with the BenQ 1080st.
A less aggressive paint or Carl's less aggressive FlexiGrey/ProGrey would be the safer option with that short-throw.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #182 of 294 Old 02-02-2017, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I've seen people start getting mixed opinions about Carl's ALR at a bit longer throw-ratio than the 1080st offers, and it is a fairly aggressive screen. I wouldn't recommend using Carl's ALR with the BenQ 1080st.
A less aggressive paint or Carl's less aggressive FlexiGrey/ProGrey would be the safer option with that short-throw.
Should i return the Flexi-white and order the flexi grey?
Or Do a paint on the flexi white?
Also currently shopping projectors. Upgrading from the 1080st. I have plenty of room for a long throw. 2-3k budget. Just didnt do my research when i first got into projectors years ago.
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post #183 of 294 Old 02-02-2017, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlightning01 View Post
Should i return the Flexi-white and order the flexi grey?
Or Do a paint on the flexi white?
Also currently shopping projectors. Upgrading from the 1080st. I have plenty of room for a long throw. 2-3k budget. Just didnt do my research when i first got into projectors years ago.
The FlexiGrey is a good option for the short-throw if you don't want to paint, but both the FlexiWhite and FlexiGrey can be painted (both are smooth and pretty light-colored).
If you're going to be upgrading the projector to a model with a longer throw, it might be best to wait till then and pick up Carl's ALR while continuing to use your spandex screen with the short-throw for now.

When you upgrade projectors, are you planning to keep the old projector around for TV duty or outdoor fun or will it likely be sold away (aka, is there much reason to build a screen for it)?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #184 of 294 Old 02-02-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rdlightning01 View Post
Should i return the Flexi-white and order the flexi grey?
Or Do a paint on the flexi white?
Also currently shopping projectors. Upgrading from the 1080st. I have plenty of room for a long throw. 2-3k budget. Just didnt do my research when i first got into projectors years ago.
For 2-3K I would look at Sony HW45es on the low end of that budget. To future proof a bit better, for the 3k price point I would look at the Epson 5040ub or JVC RS400U which is available on the AV Science store site for $2999 now. Awesome deal.
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post #185 of 294 Old 02-03-2017, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by SXRDISBEST View Post
For 2-3K I would look at Sony HW45es on the low end of that budget. To future proof a bit better, for the 3k price point I would look at the Epson 5040ub or JVC RS400U which is available on the AV Science store site for $2999 now. Awesome deal.
If you don't game on it, the RS400 is a great image for $3k.
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post #186 of 294 Old 02-03-2017, 11:50 AM
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I know al the talk is about Carls ALR samples and seen some 5d comparisons...but I thought I would post pics of my DIY elite 3d ALR screen....
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post #187 of 294 Old 02-03-2017, 11:53 AM
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Here is one with full daylight coming in the windows...
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post #188 of 294 Old 02-07-2017, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlightning01 View Post
Should i return the Flexi-white and order the flexi grey?
Or Do a paint on the flexi white?
Also currently shopping projectors. Upgrading from the 1080st. I have plenty of room for a long throw. 2-3k budget. Just didnt do my research when i first got into projectors years ago.
I have this screen paired with an Espon 5040ub and I am very happy with the results. Another great option is the JVC RS400u!
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post #189 of 294 Old 02-07-2017, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Matts4313 View Post
Alright all - here are all the screenies. Some of these I had the flash still on like a dummy, but you should get a pretty good idea. I tried to take a few different angles. Let me know if there are any others you are looking for.

**These are just from my phone, no calibrations/enhancements. 4 lights - all 60 watt turned on, plus the entry way light (3x 30 watt lights). Screen is on 'bright cinema' with no adjustments att all.
Sorry to re-hash something old, but can someone point me to a good link for building out an ambilight setup for a projector screen. Most links are centered about a 3-5m setup, but a 120" screen is closer to 8m and apparently driving that many LEDs is more complex. Or so I've read...

TY
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post #190 of 294 Old 02-07-2017, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by boojew View Post
Sorry to re-hash something old, but can someone point me to a good link for building out an ambilight setup for a projector screen. Most links are centered about a 3-5m setup, but a 120" screen is closer to 8m and apparently driving that many LEDs is more complex. Or so I've read...

TY
I'm planning on doing this myself, it's not any more difficult as such, the problems comes because the strips only run at 5V... This means that at these screen sizes, if you were to use the 144 leds/m strips, I calculated with my 130" screen, if they were to go white (full RGB) the current draw would be something like 75amps!!! You'd have to power the strips ever meter otherwise you'll melt the power lines right off the strips and probably start a fire.

Even the 72leds/m stips would still be crazy high. I wish they made 12V WS2812 / APA102 LED strips or even better, 24V! Would drastically reduce the current involved.
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post #191 of 294 Old 02-08-2017, 09:04 AM
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I'm planning on doing this myself, it's not any more difficult as such, the problems comes because the strips only run at 5V... This means that at these screen sizes, if you were to use the 144 leds/m strips, I calculated with my 130" screen, if they were to go white (full RGB) the current draw would be something like 75amps!!! You'd have to power the strips ever meter otherwise you'll melt the power lines right off the strips and probably start a fire.

Even the 72leds/m stips would still be crazy high. I wish they made 12V WS2812 / APA102 LED strips or even better, 24V! Would drastically reduce the current involved.
... so what are you going to do?
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post #192 of 294 Old 02-08-2017, 05:01 PM
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... so what are you going to do?
You have a couple of options:

1. Suck it up, power the strips ever meter and be VERY careful.
2. Use strips with a lower LED density.

There is a third possible option. There are new RGBW addressable LED strips (SK6812 based) that have a white LED on the die as all (not a separate LED in the strip, which would lower the density as well). This means, when there is demand for white, instead of pulling 20mA x3 (RGB) / 60mA per LED, you just use the white LED and now it's only pulling 20mA per LED instead of 60mA.

But there is a problem, it's a lot harder to mix the colours and get them right... Hyperion needs to support it to know how to correctly mix the LEDs and it looks like this might have been added although I don't know if it correctly knows NOT to use RGB, just W to get white:

https://github.com/jgarff/rpi_ws281x/issues/89

I'm reading through this thread now. If done correctly and again, if there were 24V versions of SK6812 strips, things would be a LOT easier, that 75A pull would be reduced down to 5A which is MUCH more manageable.
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post #193 of 294 Old 02-08-2017, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
You have a couple of options:

1. Suck it up, power the strips ever meter and be VERY careful.
2. Use strips with a lower LED density.

There is a third possible option. There are new RGBW addressable LED strips (SK6812 based) that have a white LED on the die as all (not a separate LED in the strip, which would lower the density as well). This means, when there is demand for white, instead of pulling 20mA x3 (RGB) / 60mA per LED, you just use the white LED and now it's only pulling 20mA per LED instead of 60mA.

But there is a problem, it's a lot harder to mix the colours and get them right... Hyperion needs to support it to know how to correctly mix the LEDs and it looks like this might have been added although I don't know if it correctly knows NOT to use RGB, just W to get white:

https://github.com/jgarff/rpi_ws281x/issues/89

I'm reading through this thread now. If done correctly and again, if there were 24V versions of SK6812 strips, things would be a LOT easier, that 75A pull would be reduced down to 5A which is MUCH more manageable.
Ah got it! Thank you! Yea, 75A is not happening in my basement. Based on how soon I want to do this, I will investigate how to power it by the meter.
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post #194 of 294 Old 02-08-2017, 07:58 PM
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Ah got it! Thank you! Yea, 75A is not happening in my basement. Based on how soon I want to do this, I will investigate how to power it by the meter.
Actually - wouldnt there be a forth solution - to be a strip w/ a lower LED per M count.. So for example, 30/m. For 8m, that would 240 LEDs. i'm guessing the downside is it wouldnt look nearly as good as a higher LED count
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post #195 of 294 Old 02-08-2017, 08:12 PM
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I have this screen paired with an Espon 5040ub and I am very happy with the results. Another great option is the JVC RS400u!
Flexi white or flexi gray?
I have epson 5020 in my basement where its pitch black, and my current generic tenaioned white screen just doesnt seem right. Picture is not sharp, and off all togwther compared to some other setups Ive seen (nothing crazy)

So Ive ordered samples from Carl, kinda think Im gonna order flexi gray.

Could you poat close up images of material, how smooth ia it, and how is the contrast and black levels? (If u maybe compared with white screen?)
Thanks
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post #196 of 294 Old 02-08-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by boojew View Post
Actually - wouldnt there be a forth solution - to be a strip w/ a lower LED per M count.. So for example, 30/m. For 8m, that would 240 LEDs. i'm guessing the downside is it wouldnt look nearly as good as a higher LED count
Yep, that's the second option I listed

Quote:
2. Use strips with a lower LED density.
There is however, a fourth option indeed. I believe in Hyperion you can limit the global brightness of the LED's. With 144leds/m you probably want to do that anyway as it will be insanely bright.
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post #197 of 294 Old 02-09-2017, 01:38 PM
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Holly c$#&, I ordered sample pack yesterday, arrived today, im in canada, to make things better.
Cant wait to try it out tonight.
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post #198 of 294 Old 02-10-2017, 04:34 PM
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I read through this thread and this was very informative. Want to put out my specs for suggestions. I bought Optoma GT1080 .Throw distance is approx 7ft ceiling mounted the projector and the image size is 154inch diagonal image(16:9). Seating is from 11ft away from the screen. It's a basement so lighting can be controlled. Looking for low ambient lighting since we have few windows and the walls are white/light color. Could have gone with Benq HT2150ST but would have had 120inch screen and we wanted a bigger image. Can you guys advice on which carls screen material for this setting. Don't want to paint the screen unless that is the best option available and the image quality would be significantly better. Prefer already available screen material and can build the frame around that.
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Originally Posted by cerberu202 View Post
I read through this thread and this was very informative. Want to put out my specs for suggestions. I bought Optoma GT1080 .Throw distance is approx 7ft ceiling mounted the projector and the image size is 154inch diagonal image(16:9). Seating is from 11ft away from the screen. It's a basement so lighting can be controlled. Looking for low ambient lighting since we have few windows and the walls are white/light color. Could have gone with Benq HT2150ST but would have had 120inch screen and we wanted a bigger image. Can you guys advice on which carls screen material for this setting. Don't want to paint the screen unless that is the best option available and the image quality would be significantly better. Prefer already available screen material and can build the frame around that.
Not sure about the other materials they have but supposedly you shouldn't use ALR material with that short of a throw, you'll get some serious hot spotting. I was told that my 130" screen with the projector being 13ft away was going to be problematic...
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post #200 of 294 Old 02-11-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cerberu202 View Post
I read through this thread and this was very informative. Want to put out my specs for suggestions. I bought Optoma GT1080 .Throw distance is approx 7ft ceiling mounted the projector and the image size is 154inch diagonal image(16:9). Seating is from 11ft away from the screen. It's a basement so lighting can be controlled. Looking for low ambient lighting since we have few windows and the walls are white/light color. Could have gone with Benq HT2150ST but would have had 120inch screen and we wanted a bigger image. Can you guys advice on which carls screen material for this setting. Don't want to paint the screen unless that is the best option available and the image quality would be significantly better. Prefer already available screen material and can build the frame around that.
Your best non-white pre-made screen material option will probably be Carl's FlexiGrey. It'll dim your image a bit and is a fairly medium/light-grey instead of an aggressive light fighter, but its subtle gain/shade shouldn't hotspot and it's not an expensive material.
Otherwise a plain flat/matte light-grey paint can work very well with short-throw projection.."Universal Grey" or the slightly darker "Pebble Grey" are about the darkest you'd probably want to go at that size, if that.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #201 of 294 Old 02-13-2017, 08:55 AM
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Thanks for the response. I see Carl's FlexiGrey is approx 0.8 gain and as you mentioned will dim the image a bit. Are there any alternatives to ALR that I can buy if not from Carl's. Does painting get me the 1.1 gain of ALR screen or similar experience? Not averse to painting if I cannot get a good ready screen material if the difference would be significant. I like flexigrey but want to find out other options and their price and viewing experience if they have they significant significant differences.
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post #202 of 294 Old 02-13-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cerberu202 View Post
Thanks for the response. I see Carl's FlexiGrey is approx 0.8 gain and as you mentioned will dim the image a bit. Are there any alternatives to ALR that I can buy if not from Carl's. Does painting get me the 1.1 gain of ALR screen or similar experience? Not averse to painting if I cannot get a good ready screen material if the difference would be significant. I like flexigrey but want to find out other options and their price and viewing experience if they have they significant significant differences.
The problems won't come specifically from gain nor screen-color, but the combination of both..the darker your screen-color is compared to its gain (technically a difference over ~2X) the worse it'll be for a ShortThrow.

I believe (but could be wrong) there are a couple couple more grey screens which would also work: Elite's CineGrey Classic (not the 3D nor 5D) is sold on screens or by itself as a ~$65 135inch rectangle of material, SilverTicket's Grey screen (not their Silver) may also be light-colored and low-gain enough to work.
I do think Carl's FlexiGrey will be a little lighter-colored and lower-gain..if so, it'll be the safest choice with the best image uniformity of the pemade grey screens (the Stewart GreyMatte70 would be even better, but much more expensive).

Paint would be able to work very well. Any plain flat/matte light-grey can work well for short-throw because there won't be practically any difference between its color and gain. Similarly, any metallic mix that only boosts the gain by 2X or less compared to the plain color will also work. As an added bonus, keeping the gain boost around or under 2X that of the color also means the paint will be quite forgiving and easy to use.

Your main problem will probably be that 154" is pretty big and the Optoma short-throw is not very bright. The BenQ 2150st short-throw is brighter and also users a slightly longer throw (it'll still be in front of you rather than behind, but less far in front of you), but that BenQ is usually around $800-$900. The regular-throw BenQ would be a couple hundred cheaper, but you'd only get as large as ~131" unless you can place it farther than 11ft back from the screen.
With the Optoma and its 700lumens of peak color-brightness you'll want to keep gain in the 0.7-1.0 range and the color around N7.5-N10 (light-grey on up to white). The paint color "Snowfield" or the slightly darker "Universal Grey" are probably your best paint-color choices with that projector at that size..the slightly darker "Pebble Grey" might be pushing your luck unless you're okay with an overall darker image.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #203 of 294 Old 02-14-2017, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The problems won't come specifically from gain nor screen-color, but the combination of both..the darker your screen-color is compared to its gain (technically a difference over ~2X) the worse it'll be for a ShortThrow.

I believe (but could be wrong) there are a couple couple more grey screens which would also work: Elite's CineGrey Classic (not the 3D nor 5D) is sold on screens or by itself as a ~$65 135inch rectangle of material, SilverTicket's Grey screen (not their Silver) may also be light-colored and low-gain enough to work.
I do think Carl's FlexiGrey will be a little lighter-colored and lower-gain..if so, it'll be the safest choice with the best image uniformity of the pemade grey screens (the Stewart GreyMatte70 would be even better, but much more expensive).

Paint would be able to work very well. Any plain flat/matte light-grey can work well for short-throw because there won't be practically any difference between its color and gain. Similarly, any metallic mix that only boosts the gain by 2X or less compared to the plain color will also work. As an added bonus, keeping the gain boost around or under 2X that of the color also means the paint will be quite forgiving and easy to use.

Your main problem will probably be that 154" is pretty big and the Optoma short-throw is not very bright. The BenQ 2150st short-throw is brighter and also users a slightly longer throw (it'll still be in front of you rather than behind, but less far in front of you), but that BenQ is usually around $800-$900. The regular-throw BenQ would be a couple hundred cheaper, but you'd only get as large as ~131" unless you can place it farther than 11ft back from the screen.
With the Optoma and its 700lumens of peak color-brightness you'll want to keep gain in the 0.7-1.0 range and the color around N7.5-N10 (light-grey on up to white). The paint color "Snowfield" or the slightly darker "Universal Grey" are probably your best paint-color choices with that projector at that size..the slightly darker "Pebble Grey" might be pushing your luck unless you're okay with an overall darker image.
Our ceiling drops after 6-7ft from the screen so could not go back. The seating is under the soffit at arnd 11ft. We tried the BenQ 2150st and it was brighter and nice. As mentioned was looking at a bigger image if possible and optoma GT1080 worked well (din't realize about the brightness and screen material then). I will try to build something with Carl's FlexiGrey. Does anyone happen to have user/calibrate settings for Optoma GT1080. I haven't played around with it yet and if anyone can post their details will try to use them to start with otherwise will post the request in gt1080 owners thread.
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post #204 of 294 Old 02-14-2017, 10:18 AM
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Spoiler!

To start, switch the white balance to Warm unless you prefer the look of neutral/medium and turn BrilliantColor down to 1 or as low as you can handle. This stops the projector from using its white/CYW colorwheel segments and dims the image, but gives it much better color-to-white balance and also shows less ringing and jaggies.
Two of your gamma presets are pretty accurate (I believe they are "Film" and "Video") while the other two are pretty bad. "Video" gamma is brighter, so that can help with your large image-size and room.
I don't remember the Brightness and Contrast settings being terribly far off, but they're easy to set by eye using a test-pattern or dark content (for Brightness) and then bright/white content (for Contrast).

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #205 of 294 Old 02-14-2017, 06:59 PM
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Afyer trying all the samples from carls, I dont think I like any of them.
White was look the same as my current screens, and grey ones are just to "grey", or "dimmed" therr is a better black level but a big impact on overall image
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post #206 of 294 Old 02-14-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Afyer trying all the samples from carls, I dont think I like any of them.
White was look the same as my current screens, and grey ones are just to "grey", or "dimmed" therr is a better black level but a big impact on overall image
It helps if you can compare them for brightness when the room is pretty dark and with the sample near the middle of the screen (and yourself seated in a regular viewing spot). Comparing when the room is dark isn't the only comparison, obviously, but it's helpful for getting the most accurate idea of how bright the new screen will make the image compared to the old screen.

It's also really important for the projector to be mounted fairly high..somewhere roughly close to the same height as the screen's top. Several inches above or below the screen's top won't be terrible, but mounting near or below the screen's middle can often lose a lot of the screen's gain.
Likewise, if you normally sit far off-center (like an arm of a sectional) the natural off-axis dimming of every light-fighting screen that can fight light from the sides will also cause the image to be dimmer when viewed from the sides. Often, only the middle seat will be bright enough to fully compare with a white screen's brightness.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #207 of 294 Old 02-14-2017, 08:38 PM
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Basement, no lights whatsoever, sitting dead on centre, projector ceiling mounted.
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post #208 of 294 Old 02-14-2017, 09:30 PM
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Basement, no lights whatsoever, sitting dead on centre, projector ceiling mounted.
It sounds to me like you've covered most of the major points that would put an ALR screen at a disadvantage for brightness.

If your projector is a short-throw or UltraShortThrow, or if the sample was placed closer to the screen's edge rather than the center, that can also drop gain.
Is the Carl's Silver (not the low-gain FlexiGrey nor ProGrey) also looking dimmer despite its high gain?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #209 of 294 Old 02-19-2017, 02:22 AM
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Hey, I just built the Carl's ALR screen. Everything is working very nicely, and I'm super pleased with it's performance. Way better in my light coloured room than compared to FlexiGrey.
Probably going to post a few pics in the upcoming days as well.

Just have one question. While installing the screen, I noticed that the projector picture penetrates the material. Now since I have the screen mounted against a light wall,
will the light bouncing off behind the screen and then back to the screen affect it in any way? Should I mask the behind of the screen with black to prevent it from hitting the wall behind the screen?

Thanks
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post #210 of 294 Old 02-19-2017, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Intz View Post
Hey, I just built the Carl's ALR screen. Everything is working very nicely, and I'm super pleased with it's performance. Way better in my light coloured room than compared to FlexiGrey.
Probably going to post a few pics in the upcoming days as well.

Just have one question. While installing the screen, I noticed that the projector picture penetrates the material. Now since I have the screen mounted against a light wall,
will the light bouncing off behind the screen and then back to the screen affect it in any way? Should I mask the behind of the screen with black to prevent it from hitting the wall behind the screen?

Thanks
Pics!!!!!!!!

But that doesn't sound right though.... Sounds like you have an acoustically transparent screen or something?
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