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post #31 of 45 Old 11-13-2016, 03:29 PM
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You taking my statements out of context...and "wrongly".

I stated that PB's cropped example did not show both examples. (It actually does, but only "just") I can easily tell where the dividing lines are when viewing the entire image, so you need not go on & on about the parity between the two because there is a difference that is easily seen if one looks at the image without any off-axis effect...which every LCD monitor will show if not correctly aligned with the eye.

...and addressing the terrible quality of the screen shot itself. One needs must wonder why you used a shot with almost nothing resembling correct skin tones...or show only the neck area. As an example to judge by, it's painful to look at, and you've had quite a while to replace it with a better example. Strange you have not...or perhaps you haven't had the time? (It would take less than a hour.) Well one thing goes without any argument...you must improve on the quality of your photography or you simply cannot use your images as being anything remotely accurate enough to consider worthy of such.

I have supplied a "larger" representation, complete with labeling based on your image's "Attachment Title", because all throughout your comments you never stated which center example was which.
Left to Right: Flat Gray, PW, RSS-UPW, MISSMIX, PG, Flat Gray



And then I augmented the divisional lines with dotted lines.



In the example above, using what little bit of information it provides, one can still see that the MMix is the brighter Mix, pretty much 1/2 the way between the Pro White & Pro Gray. It's a hopeless endeavor to compare the quality of Skin Tones, because there really aren't any...or isn't any as the case clearly shows. The fact there appears to be less a discernible difference on the Neck / Chin area only serves to show there is almost no discernible ( and/or correct ) color.

There is also no White, nor any Black representation either, no Black / Gray scale detail.
There is no illustration of viewing cone, Horizontal or Vertical, just your own statement of "equality".

What I'm saying is that your determination as to equality between the two is not based on any criteria worth considering. Perhaps if there was a better example...multiple examples, you and others could make the determination.

I really think your "grouchy" because you must know that the example is a poor offering, and your being called out for making definitive statements that simply cannot hold up under any type of close examination due to it being a poor offering. You might well have a point to make / show...but your still outside the door of acceptably presenting such.
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post #32 of 45 Old 11-13-2016, 08:17 PM
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Spoiler!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
You taking my statements out of context...and "wrongly"
You incorrectly stated the dividing lines between samples in your post which I quoted earlier (completely missing the division between paints and talking about a make-believe one farther to the right) until I told you exactly where they were.
PBmaxx thought the flexiW VS painted sample was the divide between the two painted samples.
You didn't even realize the two painted samples divided directly down the character's face, instead accusing me of taking a poor picture by NOT showing the samples on facial skin tones.

Of course you corrected this after I explained where the divisions were and are now able to finally mark them correctly..after a day or two. I wonder how long it would've taken if I hadn't told you exactly where to look.

The slight difference in reds along that one bottom edge portion is from the sample's bottom edge curling slightly, that's why it only happens in that one shot instead of all three and why it's only happening in that one small area. I'll see about replacing the picture with a better and flatter one.

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post #33 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 01:45 AM
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...actually, truth be told...

you yourself were initially confused about where the dividing lines were when you posted and replied to mm that I cropped the picture right and claimed the reason for the difference had to do with one of the samples slightly curling. Shortly after you realized your own mistake....promptly deleted your post...and reposted a new reply.

...but with all due respect, the picture quality of the example is so poor that it does everybody a disservice who is trying to make an honest assessment of it and I'm quite sure you know that.
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post #34 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 03:30 AM
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Spoiler!

There's a mix (RustSS+ColorPlaceLightBase) that's brighter, easier and cheaper, with the same color-accuracy and smoothness, but Mississippi would rather just guess..even after being both told and shown.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
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Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #35 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 06:19 AM
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You only read want you want to read and comment therein. I stated in my last post exactly what I said earlier on, with the condition that the right-most sample was actually there, but just barely, and certainly NOT enough showed to be able to make any judgement.

And I still "Know" that your results are inaccurate, poorly presented, inadequately described, and yes...by doing so, wholly biased toward your continual effort to discount whatever I might present myself. They almost always have been, especially in the ways and methods you've presented them. I don't really see it changing, since you obviously enjoy your role of junking up threads with your adverse opinions...chief among which is that my Mixes cost people unnecessary Time and waste their money.

And really, my efforts to present a Mix that serves the few individuals requests for something easier to assemble may have allowed it's performance to shift downward and become more on par with other simpler mixes like your own, but still it has very discernible advantages. Your examples are just too poorly done to show much of anything. I mean...they are really bad! You'll have to do much better if you want your own criticism of a compared Mix to hold up.

The Mix I presented contains less Silver, and no 4 part Colorant, and a darker shade of Gray/UPW... with the latter when combined with the lack of the first two causes the mix to have significantly less gain, unfortunately. But it still maintains a distinct color correctness, and still has more gain where gain counts for most, while not reducing black levels. Your example cannot show the real benefits of using the Poly lies in both gain retention and viewing cone retention, as well as creating a true "depth" to the image that helps maintain a dynamic appearance.

But oppositely so, perhaps above all else, it shows that the use of a properly mixed, 4 Primary Colorant can darken a Mix more effectively than dumping in a batch of Gray shaded UPW.

So why not stop using this OP's thread as a showcase for your efforts to convince others of any reputed parity since the effort is obviously sub-standard, and make a conspicuous effort to create a really well done set of examples, by refining your photography, using really effective content, all on a Thread of your own making, and then perhaps you and what you present can be taken seriously.

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post #36 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 09:14 AM
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Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
And I still "Know" that your results are inaccurate, poorly presented, inadequately described, and yes...by doing so, wholly biased toward your continual effort to discount whatever I might present myself. They almost always have been, especially in the ways and methods you've presented them. I don't really see it changing, since you obviously enjoy your role of junking up threads with your adverse opinions...
Spoiler!

The Mix I presented contains less Silver, and no 4 part Colorant, and a darker shade of Gray/UPW... with the latter when combined with the lack of the first two causes the mix to have significantly less gain, unfortunately. But it still maintains a distinct color correctness, and still has more gain where gain counts for most, while not reducing black levels.
Spoiler!

So why not stop using this OP's thread as a showcase for your efforts to convince others of any reputed parity since the effort is obviously sub-standard, and make a conspicuous effort to create a really well done set of examples, by refining your photography, using really effective content, all on a Thread of your own making, and then perhaps you and what you present can be taken seriously.
I suggested a mix that costs around $40, consists of nearly 3/4gallon of paint for a 120" rectangle (still plenty of extra), and shows an image that's able to reach equal or brighter than ProWhite...and it's been proven to work well rolled or sprayed.

You popped in here afterward to propose your own alternative mix. You're suggesting a mix that you know costs over $100 ($75 for the amount of metallic alone), consists of 1.5GALLONS of paint for a 120" rectangle, and shows an image that's visibly dimmer than 1.0-1.1gain ProWhite for a 3D application.

I found out through side-by-side comparison that a simple mix similar to my first suggestion (but slightly lower-gain due to the use of UPW) happens to match dead-on with your suggested more expensive+complex N8 mix. I reported the results here and showed a couple pictures to illustrate how ridiculously well-matched these two mixes appear despite their obvious ingredient/cost differences.
If that hurts you on some level where you feel the need to accuse me of everything you've written above, I'm sorry.

Maybe someday you'll find the spare time to sample this simple mix for yourself..then you'll be able to see that I'm not doing this as a response to hurt you. I'm advocating this mix because I've seen them for myself side-by-side in all manner of light and directions and found there's no advantage to this more complicated mix compared to either of the simpler ones (neither the brighter one nor the matched-one).
I'm simply telling what I've seen.
You're doubting me, based on your own guessing.

If my words aren't good enough for you to trust, then no amount of prettier pictures from me will be either.
Your guess is wrong, and that's okay. I just wish you wouldn't blindly cling to an incorrect guess at others' expense.

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post #37 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 09:37 AM
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Also, to folks considering comparing these mixes for themselves;
the simple mix used Rustoleum metallic accents SterlingSilver and plain UPW (or plain ColorPlace LightBase for the brighter version),
while the complex mix was originally suggested by Mississippi to use an N8 UPW (which is what I used).
If you make the complex mix using plain UPW (which is white..the N8-UPW is light-grey), the result will have a slightly lighter color because of the lighter-colored paint being used.
The N8 UPW balances down the difference in color caused by the added Rustoleum Pearl in the complex mix.
The Simple mix doesn't use any Pearl at all, so plain UPW or plain LightBase puts the RustoleumSS up to the same light-grey ~N7.5 color as the complex N8 mix.

If that doesn't make sense, feel free to ask questions.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #38 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 11:31 AM
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Your own example clearly shows that the Silver/UPW is NOT as bright as the Pro White, nor is it as bright as the MMix, so it's impossible to take your own evaluation seriously.

Your statements are based on the most basic and limited observation possible, and go no distance whatsoever to address all the other aspects of image quality. Just your proposed evaluation of brightness...which as stated is not even correct.

Quote:
If my words aren't good enough for you to trust, then no amount of prettier pictures will be either.
And to say "No amount of pictures.." would change things is a really blatant cop-out, as you already know it would, but not in the direction you'd want everyone to see. If you did do a correct, more effective presentation, the differences...all the differences would be apparent. But of course that all would have to depend upon what you did and how well you did it. Not a lot of confidence to be had there.
If words alone could convince people, then I'm sure I could do a very good job at that...but my examples and images are what does the trick....that and other User's own experiences.

In the end, the mix I suggested would be at the bottom of my list of choices. The OP stated he had already tried my solutions 2x before and was happy, and frankly the ONLY reason you even have to be presenting anything to him was him stating he was open to suggestions. Well you suggested, I countered, and he seemed to choose...not taking any issue about costs, but you didn't let it rest there.

So yes, I do feel your purposefully pursuing your own agenda at the expense of the OP's thread, and sensibilities.

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post #39 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 12:24 PM
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Spoiler!

You might've missed the mention just above, but the RustSS+UPW is the mix shown side-by-side your 0.9-1.0gain suggested complex mix which is so close in appearance that you and PBmaxxx were both incorrectly guessing the sample locations for a couple days until after I pointed them out for you.

The RustSS+ColorPlace LightBase mix I suggested in the second post is the mix that can hit around a 1.2-1.3gain range..there are comparison pictures of it in another thread, but not in here.

If Mississippi wants to complain about pictures, demand more, then complain about continued postings..well that's just silly.

If newB24 would like a particular picture or comparison, I'll try to make that happen. If newB24 prefers the more complex mix or even something else entirely, that's perfectly fine. It's his theater after all.

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Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #40 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 07:05 PM
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Your like a child who will not listen. Again, your example is something that virtually no real conclusion can be drawn from except it being of such poor quality. The ONLY person with your stated conclusion is you.

You've misstated virtually everything I've posted...and made claims that make absolutely no sense, let alone shown anything to confirm them. Your second post above this one is so obviously wrong in it's assumptions...and that is all they are...that it negates any validity or worth in anything you've posted.

Just looking back at your posted image of the center examples under room light not only shows the MMix looking darker, under projection, it looks lighter. That would indicate it has higher gain than your lighter hued simpler Mix, even despite being of a darker shade. Not so strangely, you've never cared to point that obvious distinction out. In truth, it's the only really concrete determination that can be made out of anything you presented.

As for the images I posted of full screen examples...they say everything needed to be said.

This is not "another" thread...so any references about some other Mix elsewhere not shown on here doesn't hold any significance. They only give you excuse to not redo your so-called comparison. But for the sake of newB24's thread, that might be best.

Lastly, immediately after newB24 made reference toward confirming his intent to use the Mix I suggested, you came back with the same statement you posted just above:
Quote:
If newB24 prefers the more complex mix or even something else entirely, that's perfectly fine. It's his theater after all.
....but not before trying to convince him otherwise. And your still trying.

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post #41 of 45 Old 11-14-2016, 11:03 PM
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Spoiler!
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The ONLY person with your stated conclusion is you.
Spoiler!

Well, I am the only person who's bothered to make both mixes.
You've been writing angry accusations for several days instead of mixing together two of the ingredients you already have and spraying them onto a smooth white panel to compare side-by-side with a panel of your suggested mix. You wouldn't need to take pictures or even write about it..just look and see for yourself so you can stop blindly guessing.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #42 of 45 Old 11-15-2016, 12:58 AM
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Good point about the lack of pictures comparing the originally suggested RustSS+ColorPlace mix side-by-side the complicated mix.
After seeing for myself how alike the complex mix and the RustSS+UPW mix was, I became too focussed on trying to show Mississippi what I was talking about and never posted any pictures comparing the brighter mix I originally suggested.

The 1RustSS+1ColorPlace"grey"+1water mix is on the left, the complex 2RustPearl+1RustSS+1UPWn8+1poly+2water mix is on the right.

This particular 1RustoleumSS+1ColorPlace mix is using the darker "SealGrey" instead of an N8-grey or N10-white:

Using ColorPlace LightBase instead of "SealGrey"-tinted ColorPlace will leave the gain about the same while lightening the color to be about the same as the complex mix.

Here's a nicer picture of the simple Rust+ColorPlace mix (on the left) and the complex mix (on the right)..I tried to make sure there was a centered and nicely-exposed shot with lights, darks, and facial skin-tones:

See how the darker-colored simple mix is able to give a visibly brighter image? That's because the ColorPlace paint doesn't mask quite as much of the metallic/mica in the RustoleumSterlingSilver.
Spoiler!



Looking back at the comparisons between this simple mix and the 1.1gain ProWhite in another thread, I'd estimate this simple mix to be closer to 1.2gain. Its image is visibly brighter than the ProWhite side-by-side, but only a little.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #43 of 45 Old 11-15-2016, 05:52 AM
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Education for sure. Let us really examine the image for more than just "brightness".

Although the quality is somewhat improved, it still remains out of focus...resulting in a lack of sharpness that speaks of an image that is too soft in appearance. That can also hide the presence of any grain that "might" be noticeable. And...since the image is undoubtedly zoomed in considerably, that alone would attenuate the light the Camera receives by a good deal. That will certainly help Black Levels, yet still the lighter areas on the Left side is blown out in comparison, and what skin tones exist are far too pale looking. While I would not go so far as to say that the Left side is unattractive, I think any / everyone would agree that the Skin Tones on the Right are warmer, more natural looking. (...and the Projector itself has much to say in this all....who can say what settings are being used? )

Shadow detail is also somewhat lacking, something a too bright mix might suppress, and is in the instance shown

You have shown was how a darker mix with a higher amount of Metallic will "shine"....but in the showing you also showed how a mix that does not have sufficient balance in other areas will be limited in scope and performance. None of those characteristics exist in the more complex Mixes I have introduced. And should you go so far as the use the lighter ColorSpace instead without reducing the Metallic Ratio, it's a certainty the issues outlined above would be even worse. Not sure why you feel it's correct to state a comparison against the Pro-White without showing such. Surely that would have taken only "seconds" to set up.

I feel that it was / is plain that any more precisely done example clearly shows the real circumstances.

The effort is appreciated though....as it serves a very distinct purpose.

And that purpose is that it remains questionable as to if one should be willing to accept the results of using such simpler Mixes (...my own included...) instead of more complex mixes that offer a more rounded level of performance.

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post #44 of 45 Old 11-15-2016, 07:14 AM
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...unfortunately, the focus here.and for quite some time has been limited solely on on-axis gain alone.

I know for a fact that the ss + upw mix has a very limited viewing cone because I advocated the same simple mixes more than a dozen years ago... Using delta ceramcoat silver plus upw and a couple of other silvers that would put the gain of rustoleum silver to shame.

Good solutions, no doubt...just not more complete ones.

Lastly, I would not ever suggest spraying a complex solution on to white cardboard and then immediately determine any results.

Coagulation, ionization, flocculation, and curing are just some of the concerns.

...of course around here some of us only talk about curing occasionally...not that most people don't know what it means.

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post #45 of 45 Old 11-15-2016, 07:38 AM
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Spoiler!

The RustSS+ColorPlace LightBase (instead of ColorPlace-grey) will be better suited for a darker room like newB24's while the darker-grey version (using ColorPlace-grey instead of ColorPlace LightBase) would be better for fighting ambient light in a poorer room.

Both of the simple RustoleumSS+ColorPlace mixes (the LightBase and the darker-grey version) show a brighter image than the complex mix and are particularly well-suited for 3D use where the extra brightness is extra important.

Spoiler!

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 11-15-2016 at 09:33 AM.
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