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post #1 of 45 Old 11-07-2016, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Epson 3500- New Install-Screen Help

Hey guys, I'm moving around again and unfortunately had to get rid of my projector and screen in the process so I'm back in the need of getting a new projector and doing a DIY screen.

Good news is that I have a decent light controlled space and looks like I can fit a 120" screen based on the projector calculator.

I'm going with the Epson 3500.....I'm trying to determine the final logistics but will be ceiling mounted and from front of the lens to the screen will be between 11' and 13' from the screen (depends on how the lens shift ends up working out based on some ceiling soffitts in the room.

This will be my 3rd screen, the previous 2 were sprayed on MM specials. I'm open to another spray project but also interested in looking at roll on options as well.

This is also the first time I've had a 3D projector so would be very interested in a solution that would enhance this capability.

Well, as always, looking forward to it and seeing what we can do together!

Thanks

Jon
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post #2 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 01:35 AM
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You can spray or roll a half'n'half mix of 1quart Rustoleum SterlingSilver metallic and 1quart ColorPlace flat interior "Pebble Grey" (or ColorPlace interior flat white if you prefer a lighter-colored screen around N8 grey EDIT: N7-N7.5-grey) and either will hit a peak-gain around 1.2-1.3 which should be more than enough with that bright projector at around 120". If you'll be spraying duster-coats, thinning the 1quart RustSS and 1quart-"PebbleGrey" mix with about 30oz of water helps it go on thin and smooth.
If you prefer to use a different flat-grey instead of the ColorPlace (which is about $10/gallon at walmart) you'll either want to shrink the amount down closer to 25oz flat-grey and 1quart RustoleumSS metallic to remain around 1.3gain, or you can use a full quart of each which should tame the mix closer to 1.0-1.1gain which is still quite bright with that Epson.

This combination looks very similar to the lighter SilverFire2.5 1.0-NC mixes and behaves about the same for spraying, but the price is a bit lower around $40 instead of $80-$110....and 2quarts is more than enough for rolling or spraying a 120" screen.


If you're sensitive enough to be bothered by sparkles/grain on your previous screens, a different mix using FolkArt metallic and matte water-based poly can be exceptionally clean-looking, but I've only had good results with spraying it and you'd need to pick up 6tubes of the little 2oz FolkArt metallics (1tube of GunmetalGrey metallic and 5 tubes of the Pearl metallic and/or SterlingSilver metallic) which can be found at Joann's, Michaels, walmart, etc...mix those six 2oz tubes together with 12oz matte water-based poly and 10oz-12oz water and spray several thin dusters.
The results can be really really smooth and clean/clear, but sometimes you'll need to stop at more than one place to get all the FolkArt metallic's which can be a pain if you're in a hurry.
HomeDepot sells a nice matte water-based poly by Varathane..about $12/quart. The FolkArt is usually $1.75-$2/tube, so it'd be around $25 all together for the mix to fill a 120"+ screen.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #3 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 04:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
You can spray or roll a half'n'half mix of 1quart Rustoleum SterlingSilver metallic and 1quart ColorPlace flat interior "Pebble Grey" (or ColorPlace interior flat white if you prefer a lighter-colored screen around N8 grey) and either will hit a peak-gain around 1.2-1.3 which should be more than enough with that bright projector at around 120". If you'll be spraying duster-coats, thinning the 1quart RustSS and 1quart-"PebbleGrey" mix with about 30oz of water helps it go on thin and smooth.
If you prefer to use a different flat-grey instead of the ColorPlace (which is about $10/gallon at walmart) you'll either want to shrink the amount down closer to 25oz flat-grey and 1quart RustoleumSS metallic to remain around 1.3gain, or you can use a full quart of each which should tame the mix closer to 1.0-1.1gain which is still quite bright with that Epson.

This combination looks very similar to the lighter SilverFire2.5 1.0-NC mixes and behaves about the same for spraying, but the price is a bit lower around $40 instead of $80-$110....and 2quarts is more than enough for rolling or spraying a 120" screen.


If you're sensitive enough to be bothered by sparkles/grain on your previous screens, a different mix using FolkArt metallic and matte water-based poly can be exceptionally clean-looking, but I've only had good results with spraying it and you'd need to pick up 6tubes of the little 2oz FolkArt metallics (1tube of GunmetalGrey metallic and 5 tubes of the Pearl metallic and/or SterlingSilver metallic) which can be found at Joann's, Michaels, walmart, etc...mix those six 2oz tubes together with 12oz matte water-based poly and 10oz-12oz water and spray several thin dusters.
The results can be really really smooth and clean/clear, but sometimes you'll need to stop at more than one place to get all the FolkArt metallic's which can be a pain if you're in a hurry.
HomeDepot sells a nice matte water-based poly by Varathane..about $12/quart. The FolkArt is usually $1.75-$2/tube, so it'd be around $25 all together for the mix to fill a 120"+ screen.
Sounds awesome, appreciate the quick feedback. We actually move in at the end of the month so I have time to get all the materials. We do like a brighter screen and we don't mind the sparkles so sounds like I have a decent plan.

Now to do some research on painting techniques!

Thanks!
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post #4 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 06:35 AM
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I just finished a 120" Drywall Screen that uses a 3500.

You would be best served using a Mix that uses a combination of Rust-Oleum Silver & Pearl, "Light Gray Flat Enamel" and Polyurethane.

Don't just stay open to spraying.....Spray! My goodness, you already have the experience and success at doing so...why switch to a method that is known to introduce more chance of application issues?

I find the statement that the other described mix would hit 1.2-1.3 gain very hard to accept, and if 3D is a desired application, you do not want happen-chance results. While the 3500 is a very bright machine, in 3D mode it still drops brightness by almost 50%, so you want a very light Gray screen (contrast enhancement) but one that specifically is centered around providing real gain without adverse effects.

The images below (w/3500 @ 120" diagonal) are a darker version of the Mix you should consider.
NO sparklies....NO texture....and NO chance of Roller Marks either. Also, the Color Reproduction is absolutely "dead on correct"...something others seem to fail to consider.






There are two overhead Can lights on over each Corner, but that is not a concern for you with adequate light control. What is to be noted however is that those images come off a surface easily 2x darker than you need / want for excellent 3D performance.

Go with something well proven in this instance.....not a "maybe".

1 Part Silver
2 Parts Pearl
1 Part Light Gray Flat Interior Enamel (M-8.0)
1 Part Matte Poly
2 Parts Water


Bluntly put....the use of Pearl as both a Mix lightener and brightener while utilizing the Silver for Contrast & Color enhancement, and adding Polyurethane for added light dispersion properties (...and non-water-based thinning...) is by far the best combination. The price difference should not be touted as a factor...at all. Not when the end results more than justify a $50-$60 dollar uptick.
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post #5 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 08:39 AM
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I haven't tested the:
2RustPearl
1RustSS
1Behr/GliddenN8
1poly
2water

mix yet, but I have compared 1:1 RustoleumSS:ColorPlace-flatWhite, 1:1 RustSS:SealGrey, 1:1 RustSS : DeepOnyx and a properly sprayed SilverFire2.5 1.0/NC mix:
2RustPearl
2RustSS
1BehrUPW
1.5poly
3-3.5water

and found all of them have the same 1.2-1.3gain (a little brighter than 1.0FlexiWhite and ~1.1ProWhite but dimmer than 1.5gain+ mixes and ~1.8gain CarlsSilver).
I've also found the Rustoleum SterlingSilver has about 4X as much metallic/mica as the Rustoleum Pearl, and a 1:1mix of RustSS:grey hits the same gain as a 4:1mix of RustPearl:grey. Interestingly a 1:4 RustSS:black mix has a very slightly wider viewing-cone at some angles than a 1:1 RustPearl:black mix (both using flat-"DeepOnyx") for a really dark-colored screen with the same ~0.6gain..otherwise they look about the same with the SS version being a touch warmer-toned.

The 1:1mix of RustSS and ColorPlace flat-white lands around 1.2-1.3gain with a shade around N7-N7.5 grey..so I think the mix suggested by Mississippi will be the same gain and about the same color or just a hair lighter-colored.
I believe viewing angles, brightness, and color-accuracy should be so close between these two that you couldn't see a difference if you switched between them with a few seconds of time between switching.

Here are some pictures of a 1:1 RustoleumSS:"PebbleGrey"/"Veil" mix using the Epson 2040. These were rolled, but I agree with Mississippi that spraying is safer and I think it's more consistent with gain.




I'll see about testing Mississippi's suggested mix today to see how it compares with 1:1 RustSS:flatWhite.
There should be side-by-side comparison shots today/tonight now that my curiosity is peaked.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #6 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 09:29 AM
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Perhaps it's the photography at issue, (..or the Projector?) but the shots in the post just above and in the other Thumbnails all look washed out, colors and whites are dull, and there is a definite push toward Red, although slight. They just do not "PoP", nor show any appreciable contrast element. In comparison, not how much wider the dynamic range is in my images, even with overhead lighting present.

Achieving a balance across the board of gain, contrast, and color correctness is the goal, and although some applications come close, only a very few are so close...or so dead on....that the projectors out there today that sport "Out of the Box" modes heralded as being almost perfect do not have their performance affected.

Absolutely, the method of application (...and the underlying substrate) can have everything to do with how well a given Mix will perform. In keeping with that, yes, I often stress that there are some compromises that cannot be considered acceptable IF one wants the best possible results.

Bearing that in mind, it's also to be understood that my own values might sometimes exceed those of others, many of whom can easily accept a lessor standard of performance and never look askance at what they see. And Hey....that's just OK to be sure. Fortunately the images current Projectors can put up go a long, long way in equalizing things. Gone are the days where a exceptional screen surface was needed to make low end projectors look decent.

Just the same, there are still marked differences to be had, if one wants to have them. A exceptional screen surface can make an exceptional Projector look all the more....exceptional. To that effect, I think it is counter-productive for anyone to state that some applications "look just as good as..." or "perform similarly to" Paint applications that go the extra distance because of specific extra ingredients....and methods of applications. And to further press home such a point by equating it all to a difference in price of $50 to $150 is just simply telling people they can "make do". I will admit freely that has never been my Mantra, but history has born out the differences so many times it simply cannot be discounted, nor certainly ignored when giving people advice.

Ftoast, I look forward to whatever results you can show. Good luck.

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post #7 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 09:42 AM
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BTW...for quite a while some have asked if / stated that the Colorant aspect of Silver Fire could be color matched. That is not nor ever has been possible. The translucency and percentages of the primaries just don't allow for the same effect. However I have been recently trying to combine certain neutral Flat Gray paints (...mixed with Interior Enamels only) to acheive an easier method to accomplish something "close" to the same performance.

Mark my words....it's not the same, nor as effective, but close enough to suit the needs of many, and it avoids the precise mixing of 4 separate Primaries as well as the related expense.

However it should be noted that my best results in doing that sort of thing have come from using very Dark Gray Paints, and diluting them with additional UPW to the level of Gray desired. That entails using a varied percentage of the dark Gray with the pure UPW.

For those not so adept at making such judgements "on the Fly", starting with a lighter Gray is certainly safer. Or......*

*.....they can always ask for a suggestion specific to their needs. I've be know to offer them up at times.

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post #8 of 45 Old 11-08-2016, 11:58 AM
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Spoiler!

After finishing the Mississippi-custom mix I realized its gain was quite a bit lower than the SilverFire 1.0/NC panel and the RustSS:ColorPlace-flatGrey panel I was figuring it'd land next to..the shade is a decent ways lighter-colored as well.
Because of this, I decided to try a 1:1mix of RustSS metallic and flat-BehrUPW instead of RustSS+ColorPlaceWhite because the thicker Behr/Glidden paints have generally led to slightly lower gain and a touch more pigment..the results were even closer than I had thought. The color/shade of the Mississippi custom mix appears the same as the RustSS+UPW and both share the same gain and viewing-cone. They're alike to the point that in-person it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins when they're next to eachother for testing.


Here's a picture comparing the color of the Mississippi mix with the simpler mix (and Carls ProGrey and ProWhite on either side):


Here's a white-field showing the gain and a comparison of color-accuracy/white-balance with the Mississippi mix and the simpler mix (and Carls ProGrey and ProWhite on either side)::


As you can see, it's difficult to tell the two mixes in the center apart from eachother.


The white sample toward one side of these pictures is Carls ProWhite 1.1gain material and the grey sample at the opposite end is Carls ProGrey 0.7-0.8gain material and the larger background panel is a flat N7.5 grey (around 0.5gain).
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #9 of 45 Old 11-09-2016, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Well....

looks like I've started something...sorry about that....

so I guess I'm confused again....I don't mind spraying and have had success and will have the time to do it so maybe that is best at this point, unfortunately most of this conversation is over my head.

1 Part Silver
2 Parts Pearl
1 Part Light Gray Flat Interior Enamel (M-8.0)
1 Part Matte Poly
2 Parts Water

To clarify...
1 part Rust-Oleum American Accents Sterling Silver Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint


2 parts Rust-Oleum American Accents White Pearl Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint

1 Part Minwax 22222 Polycrylic Protective Finish

1 part #UL260-10 Graceful Gray Interior Flat Enamel Paint Behr


2 parts water


If I remember right, I need to make about 1 gallon of the stuff.....so I'll have to do some math....



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post #10 of 45 Old 11-09-2016, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newB24 View Post
Well....

looks like I've started something...sorry about that....

so I guess I'm confused again....I don't mind spraying and have had success and will have the time to do it so maybe that is best at this point, unfortunately most of this conversation is over my head.

1 Part Silver
2 Parts Pearl
1 Part Light Gray Flat Interior Enamel (M-8.0)
1 Part Matte Poly
2 Parts Water

To clarify...
1 part Rust-Oleum American Accents Sterling Silver Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint


2 parts Rust-Oleum American Accents White Pearl Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint

1 Part Minwax 22222 Polycrylic Protective Finish

1 part #UL260-10 Graceful Gray Interior Flat Enamel Paint Behr


2 parts water


If I remember right, I need to make about 1 gallon of the stuff.....so I'll have to do some math....


If you do it the easy way and simply dump in the Silver & Pearl & Poly out of their respective 32 oz containers into a 2.5 Gallon Mixing Bucket, and use the water needed to both rinse out the above metallic containers, and thereby achieve the correct measurement for the water, you will wind up with 1.5 gallons total.

Also, please note that as I said, the level of Gray / Gain can be adjusted by dividing a percentage of pure White to Mixed Gray to get a lighter shade of Gray. It is a "Custom Mix" after all, so you are not restricted to accepting only given Color Card examples.

I adjust ALL my mixes to conform to whatever circumstances prevail. So can / should you, based on getting the perfect solution....not an "almost" one.

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post #11 of 45 Old 11-09-2016, 03:35 PM
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Use the Glidden Diamond as the base for your Gray, and for any additional "after mixing" lightening.

It is a higher Gain UPW than the Behr

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post #12 of 45 Old 11-09-2016, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newB24 View Post
so I guess I'm confused again....I don't mind spraying and have had success and will have the time to do it so maybe that is best at this point, unfortunately most of this conversation is over my head.

1 Part Silver
2 Parts Pearl
1 Part Light Gray Flat Interior Enamel (M-8.0)
1 Part Matte Poly
2 Parts Water

To clarify...
1 part Rust-Oleum American Accents Sterling Silver Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint
2 parts Rust-Oleum American Accents White Pearl Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint
1 Part Minwax 22222 Polycrylic Protective Finish
1 part #UL260-10 Graceful Gray Interior Flat Enamel Paint Behr
2 parts water

If I remember right, I need to make about 1 gallon of the stuff.....so I'll have to do some math....
If you're only painting a 120" rectangle (which shouldn't normally need more than 1.5quarts of paint), the half'n'half mix of
1part - Rust-Oleum American Accents Sterling Silver Gloss Metallic Latex Interior Paint
and
1part - Glidden Diamond/Behr Premium, matte, UPW
looks the same as the more complicated mix without the needless expense and extra ingredients.

Of course it's your theater and you can do what you want with it. All I'm saying is..
Less math, less money spent, less time shopping and more time enjoying your projector on a screen that performs every bit as well. I've sprayed them both and watched them side-by-side, they look the same.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #13 of 45 Old 11-10-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post

Of course it's your theater and you can do what you want with it. All I'm saying is..
Less math, less money spent, less time shopping and more time enjoying your projector on a screen that performs every bit as well. I've sprayed them both and watched them side-by-side, they look the same.
Unless you actually tried many of the various combinations possible, and can show such varied results in detail, that statement cannot hold true based on yourown limited experience. At best...it is only a personal opinion..

Even if one considers the matter based solely on common sense and not actual use, such "reasoning" must conclude that a translucent mix that contains a higher percentage of Light Base infused with Mica (WP) MUST have higher gain potential than one that solely uses proportionately more of a darker base w/Mica (SM)

And that mix, that uses proportionately more Pearl than Silver will NOT show graininess or Sparklies as being as predominant.

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post #14 of 45 Old 11-10-2016, 09:28 AM
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...I wouldn't make such definitive statements of equality with such small samples alone. Differences will often show up from screenshot to screenshot stills as well as motion to motion series.

...having said that... there is a certainly a noticable difference between the two center panels of your screenshot.
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Spoiler!


I took the time to compare these two mixes in person to both help the OP as directly as possible AND to further my own understanding of how these various mixes perform.

If Mississippi would rather argue theory and experience instead of devoting that same modest amount of time toward actually comparing things to confirm/deny for himself (or Heaven forbid, trust the pictures right in front of him if not others' own experience), I'm afraid for this forum section's health.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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Spoiler!

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #17 of 45 Old 11-10-2016, 11:34 AM
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You can spout all the hyberbole you want, and try to make it look like you've actually done something important, but the real truth is every posted example you've shown lacks the image quality that others have posted...not just myself.

Sorry, but I will continue to believe that your methods and choices are lacking. Then there is the real possibility that your efforts are in someway sub standard...or in the least questionable. Neither I nor anyone else knows what exactly we are looking at in your posts. And frankly, the more you try to justify your stance while discounting the efforts and applications of others, the more questionable your posts become. The Rank & File Members can do the judging based on prior completed examples and posted evaluations...as they and they alone are best suited to the task.

And as far as me taking the time....your "all it would take is 1 hour" suggestion is laughable. You cannot effectively create a proper SF / BF application using multiple Dusters in under 2.5 hours, let alone a single hour, so again, what your presenting is in the least questionable. I obviously have far more on my daily plate than you, I have my business to maintain, and continually responding to requests to try to prove the worth of the applications I advocate is really not on my agenda. You on the other hand seem to have much to prove, and every reason to try to belittle anything that might take any relevance away from your own efforts. Now that might not be the case, but your own approach to how you post doesn't do much to indicate otherwise.

It's very obvious your main emphasis focuses on decrying the need to go with more complex, advanced applications. That was / has been a continual trend with a few others over the years, and not so strangely, none of the applications ...simple, inexpensive...whatever...they just seem to never to prove themselves out as being "special" or even keep pace. Usually it's only through the sheer weight of someone continually posting and re-posting the same thing over and over that anyone even takes any notice of such applications. When I decide to post nowadays, 95% of the time it's to solely to provide actual, timely advice...not suggestions to "experiment" or to trash talk other applications. That latter point excepting my letting someone know if another given application will be unsuited to their needs. But just the opposite, if it will suit, and it is easier and less expensive, I will clearly state such as being the case.

When I do a comparison I go full out, not with smaller sized samples...but I also do careful preparation, and when I get to the point where I'm ready, it's because I'm combining that effort with current work. So your continual berating of me for not jumping at your "requests" does not hold any weight. I'll continue to let the End Users speak for my / their chosen applications.

As for your last post above responding to PB...you seem to have willfully ignored the fact that I HAVE helped to OP...both in the past, as well as that he already posted an obvious choice to go with my suggestion. Yet....here you still are. Hmmmm?

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post #18 of 45 Old 11-10-2016, 12:19 PM
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Spoiler!

You're belittling the efforts of myself and others as well as blindly knocking a mix that you've never bothered to try.
I've taken the time to test and compare both mixes to make sure I'm making the best possible suggestions for the OP. No hyperbole. No guessing.
Thin dusters, sprayed onto smooth, white card-stock dry smooth and complete in a few minutes with warm, dry air concentrating on them..the same process works equally well albeit slower on a full-size screen (I've compared that as well).

If you prefer to believe I'm simply lying or making this up for some conspiracy against you..what would even be the point of that?!

These mixes look the same, but one costs $65 more and leaves the OP with 3/4gallon more paint than they'll need for their screen.
If this is to be a whole-wall application, then I'm wrong about the amount of paint needed and apologize..

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #19 of 45 Old 11-10-2016, 04:28 PM
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[QUOTE=Ftoast;48087673]
You're belittling the efforts of myself and others as well as blindly knocking a mix that you've never bothered to try.

I didn't belittle...just stated obvious, view-able facts.
......and I have tried a mix / mixes that are virtually identical to the one you suggested, enough times to know exactly what they can and cannot do. I mean really...it's not like it''s anything new...or special. Truth is, I've yet to see any of the recent offerings present anything "new"...they are all copies or slightly altered versions of years-old applications.


I've taken the time to test and compare both mixes to make sure I'm making the best possible suggestions for the OP. No hyperbole. No guessing.
Thin dusters, sprayed onto smooth, white card-stock dry smooth and complete in a few minutes with warm, dry air concentrating on them..the same process works equally well albeit slower on a full-size screen (I've compared that as well).

So you applied the mixes to Cardboard....and how many Dusters? I cannot remember the last time someone used Cardboard for a screen...I wouldn't...and any sample you can make via spraying that would dry in "a few minutes" is not going to be indicative of a real world effort. It can be at best, a rough example. Also...without true, multiple layers, you cannot get the same results. 3-4 layers ain't gonna do it.

PB has the right of it....samples are not to be considered as being anything to judge "Full Screen Performance" against. They can only ever show exactly the small area of light that is hitting them.


If you prefer to believe I'm simply lying or making this up for some conspiracy against you..what would even be the point of that?!

Never even suggested "Lying" or Fabricating results....just that the results could not be considered definitive to the extent you state them to be, and that the methods used could easily be weighted in favor of a particular application simply by subtle differences in components, mixing, and application, be they inadvertent or intentional. Don't put on a Hair Shirt....almost every time I've done extensive examples using 4'x4' material against a Reference screen, some one-body always claims the results are bogus. To wit....the End Users are better suited to make commentary...if they choose to choose a particular application. Few are going to do Tests using adequately sized examples, and if they use smaller ones, then nothing definitive can be ascertained. (...unless there is a wide disparity between two examples)

The point? It's an old one. People want their own efforts to be acknowledged as being a better choice. How they go about accomplishing getting people to decide is the real issue. I decided long ago during those times of conflict to let Users do the talking. Yes...sometimes it doesn't always go down as hoped. Mistakes are made or choices are proven wrong. Sometimes the Users themselves get belittled or discounted for posting overly enthusiastic evaluations. Then there is the whole "You can't tell squat by looking at a Screen Shot" diatribe. Why that alone would be grounds for someone to state your images are not an accurate assessment. I suggested as much by saying "It might be the Photography"....but I didn't go any further.


These mixes look the same, but one costs $65 more and leaves the OP with 3/4gallon more paint than they'll need for their screen.
If this is to be a whole-wall application, then I'm wrong about the amount of paint needed and apologize..

The first "wrong thing" is assuming that someone could / can / will nail down a decent paint application on a 10' diagonal surface using 1.5 quarts of paint mix. Never you mind the potential for the necessity of a mistake driven re-do...or having enough left over to effect a repair using the exact same mix. And what of the very many people have been able to share left overs with pleading friends. No...instead the only real complaint seems to be the extra amount left over when using whole amounts instead of measuring out smaller amounts, while instead requiring people to collect lots of little Tubes / Vials of paint and try to get all the paint out of them. In either instance, the costs of the paints "per volume" involved remains virtually the same. Larger Mixes are easier to deal with. If you have a Quart of Silver and a Quart of Pearl, you'd have to waste 16 oz of Silver to get a 1:2 mix. Or what if you used 1/2 quart of Silver for a Silver / UPW mix and if you ran short because of something unforeseen? That is when the real expense must be borne.

In DIY, some will resist spending anything more than the absolute fewest dollars. Those people will get what they spend for.....but no more. Those who
want more will spend more....and it's not a "bigly" enough difference to warrant steering them away under the pretext of saving a few dollars.

The last "Wrong" thing is that the examples only look the same if one restricts themselves to just one set of choices when making them up...and the fact you were not using the exact same PJ the OP will be using or showing the examples on the exact same size screen pretty much relegates the entire effort to being exactly what I stated before....your own opinion. Simply put...you cannot do any more than offer an opinion unless you make the effort to show an example that truly closely parallels the OPs own project.

Like I did.

......and that in not belittling you or anyone else...it's only stating the obvious.

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post #20 of 45 Old 11-10-2016, 06:24 PM
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Spoiler!

I think you might be confused over which paint-mix I'm suggesting (or I got confused by your mentioning of chasing down multiple tubes of paint).

I'm suggesting a mix of RustoleumSS and Behr/GliddenUPW and water which still results in some extra paint at almost 3quarts after thinning.

Comparing this above mix and the RustSS+RustPL+poly+UPW+water mix showed them to have the same performance even with multiple projectors and in different lighting situations..both screens behaved the same as each other.

I sprayed 8 light dusters for both samples because I assumed any spraying performed by the OP would follow patterns he was familiar with.
The dusters were light enough that the samples were starting to fill-out after the 5'th and looked good by the 7'th...the 8'th was icing to make sure nothing was missed.

I've compared samples sprayed onto this white card-stock against samples sprayed onto ThriftyWhite and found them to match perfectly..if you don't consider the white side of ThriftyWhite to be a good sample surface, then I'd understand if you likewise don't consider the above samples as good surfaces.

I'm very careful with making sure sample comparisons are laying flat against a common surface to help make sure their angles are identical and I made sure the lighting in the projector-off color comparison was overhead rather than toward the side because I wanted the light to hit both samples equally.

Larger samples can be more fun to show, but small samples still allow you to compare the peak-gain, gain slope/fall-off, color and white-balance, visual texture/grain, and lights-on color of a mix. Understanding the gain-slope/fall-off also tells whether or not a surface will hotspot.
All of these aspects were the same between the mix using 2RustPL+1RustSS+1Behr/GliddenUPW+1poly+2water and the mix using 1RustSS+1Behr/GliddenUPW+1water.

I encourage either Mississippi or PBmaxx to try their own comparison to whatever standards they prefer because they'll more likely have the ingredients already on-hand while the OP would end up stuck with paint he isn't using.

I figured it would be nicer if I just did the experimenting for the OP since the added paints won't go to waste in my case (I'll use them for all kinds of unrelated future tests and experiments).. That way I'd have a good excuse to pick up some more paints and he'd be able to see how both mixes compare directly side-by-side.

Win/win. Or so I'd thought.
I didn't expect to be accused of messing up the comparison and/or panel (unwittingly or on-purpose) in some self-worth scheme or bumbling failure..nor did I expect to be told how this actual hands-on experience and the side-by-side pictures are basically worthless simply because it was me who did it and/or because the samples aren't bigger.

Sorry for the rambling. I was trying to help.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #21 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Well this has turned into something I really wasn't expecting.

What if I painted 1/2 my screen with each suggested mix.

Same crappy spray technique, same sloppy ingredient mix both applied in a brand new area....

My only concern is feathering the middle so I don't have a distinct line showing where I taped off each half of the wall......
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post #22 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 07:13 AM
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new824

that would not be a good idea...

...while the screenshot itself is rather poor and blown out as easily seen from the skin tones...

...whether good, bad, or indifferent... there is a distinct difference between these two screen samples as evidenced the distinct line down the red shirt of Mario.

differences as clear as this only become more pronounced in a large full screen.
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post #23 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 07:54 AM
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PB (and newB24 ),

Your re-posted image only shows the Far left side and the 2nd example from the left, not the two center examples.

There wasn't a clear distinction made as to which center most example was what, just references as to what material was to the far right & left. So really, that important distinction was left out.

So now we are left to guess which...and also left to guess as to which is chosen to represent what would be considered the better choice.

newB24, in my mind, it's an easy choice. Go with a known quality, one that you know you have had success with before.

But...as PB stated, and for what it's worth, painting a "half & half" screen would be a waste of time, money, and leave you with a unusable screen, one that would have to be re-primed white all over, and the re-painted all over. It shouldn't be on your shoulders to experiment (...unless you have a burning desire to do so...) and hope for results you can live with.

Just choose and be done with it. As stated by by Ftoast, there is not a lot of difference between the two simple applications. That might be because the same poly and UPW I suggested was not used. In any case, you'd probably not be crying tears over the results of either. My primary concern is which will effectively be brightest yest also deliver the best Contrast and color enhancement, and in that regard I feel that a/the mix that contains "some" Silver with "more" Pearl along with Polyurethane simply "has to" perform better than a coating that has "NO" translucency whatsoever.

With 3D watching in the cards, you cannot afford to lose any foot lambert at all.

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post #24 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 08:17 AM
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...but if I hazard a guess...when one looks at the painted samples lying flat, in low light, yes they both look extremely close in shade.

However when all the examples are standing up straight in higher room illumination, and when under protected content, the 2nd from the left example is clearly showing a more "whiter" image.

Both "centered" examples do show the obvious improvement over the Pro White (far left obviously) and the Pro Gray (far right...also obvious) and of course the dismal Rear .05 gain background.

Also note that if the far left Pro Gray example is 1.1 gain, it's absolutely nuts to say either of the center examples are 1.2-1.3 gain. 1.0 to 1.1 yes. Higher? No way.

But....as I said, the small samples do not give enough area coverage to make really effective comparisons between what each "centered" example can do. We need to see the Bricks, the Face, the Shirt, in other words, a much larger representation of what is being projected / reflected.

That is what I find fault with....poor and potentially misleading representations. Not necessarily intentional, beyond one simply not doing a better job at showing things accurately.

And therein lies the gist of the issue, and also why I don't "jump" and make up very large examples to prove points I feel are either redundant or already well proven. I won't do a mediocre comparison, and a good comparison requires more than a 1 hout effort spraying, as well as transport to a location where such large examples can be compared.

Just recall if you will my last two comparisons, where I used a 140" screen and 3' x 4' examples (and even one 4' x 8'er)

It makes all the difference in the world if one really wants to show an accurate assessment.

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post #25 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 08:18 AM
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...if you take a second look...I'm fairly certain i only cropped and centered on the middle two samples...

...if so, then yes the distinction does still remain.

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post #26 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 08:27 AM
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No...the suspender on the left is in the Pro White area. Go back and look at the initial image and you can clearly see the suspender on the right lies within a different area...and further right is yet another area, and beyond that is the Flat Gray background.

But....if I'm wrong, then the Pro White and the next example beside it are so ridiculously close as to make the divisional line impossible to see in the photography as shown.

.....I could be wrong...Monitors are /can be very imprecise. And combined with the way it all is being presented, it cannot be clearly ascertained anyway. Each "Centered" example should have facial tones shown....only one does. That alone skewers the making of any more precise determination.

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post #27 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 08:49 AM
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If you're looking to keep as much brightness as possible, using ColorPlace flat Light-Base instead of Behr/GliddenUPW provides a noticeable increase in ftL due to slightly less masking of the Pearl/Silver elements in either mix.

In the picture comparisons the 2RP+1RSS+1upw+1poly+2W mix suggested by Mississippi is next to the ProGrey sample while the 1RSS+1upw+1W mix I suggested is next to the ProWhite..the pictures' names are labeled in order.
Both the complex and the simple mix using the UPW is dimmer than the 1.0-1.1gain ProWhite..I'd estimate Mississippi's suggested mix to land around 0.9-1.0gain.
The simple mix as I originally recommended (using ColorPlace LightBase instead of UPW) lands a little above 1.1gain, closer to 1.2-1.3gain.

I don't suggest painting two different screen sides unless you really want to experiment. I believe the mixes (as long as you use the same flat/matte white for both) will turn out so close that a feathered line would be invisible and it'd just look like a normal screen, BUT the main point of my suggested mix is to give you equal or better performance while costing you less..so I agree it'd be better to use one or the other instead of both unless you really really like to experiment with paint for fun and experience.

Even then, Mississippi's suggested mix already includes both ingredients you could make the simpler mix with AND you could easily make his recommended mix and still have plenty of RustoleumSS and matte-white leftover to paint a small test-panel with. If you really feel an itch to see them both for yourself, that'd be more efficient than buying the RustoleumSS and matte-white twice.
Not sure I'd recommend that either though since you'd just end up seeing how much the same they are after spending around $40-$65 for the Pearl and poly that you likely can't return.

I'm making these suggestions to help, so I'm not going to be grumpy at you newB24 for choosing something different. It doesn't hurt me and you'll still have a good screen either way.
The 1quart Rustoleum sterlingsilver and 1quart ColorPlace flat Light-Base mix (with about 30oz water for thin dusters) will give a brighter image and cost less than the more complicated mix, but the higher cost and lower brightness of the complex mix aren't enough to seriously hurt your image nor your wallet.
You're in good shape either way.


I'm just grouchy at Mississippi for stepping in and talking negatively about a mix that he's never seen nor tried simply because he doesn't understand how/why it looks the same (or brighter if ColorPlace is used).
You, newB24 got caught in the middle. Its not your fault and I certainly can understand the confusion when getting different suggestions tossed your direction.

Note how much confusion Mississippi and PBmaxx are having over where each sample begins and ends..that's because there's not a lot of difference between any of these. We're somewhat splitting hairs here, and you've got a good room and bright projector with a perfectly reasonable screen-size.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #28 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post
...if you take a second look...I'm fairly certain i only cropped and centered on the middle two samples...
...if so, then yes the distinction does still remain.
You cropped it centered between FlexiWhite and the RustSS+UPW mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
No...the suspender on the left is in the Pro White area. Go back and look at the initial image and you can clearly see the suspender on the right lies within a different area...and further right is yet another area, and beyond that is the Flat Gray background.
Each "Centered" example should have facial tones shown....only one does. That alone skewers the making of any more precise determination.
The suspender on the left IS in the ProWhite area.
The suspender on the right is in the ProGrey area, further to the right is the N7.5 backdrop, and whatever you think you're seeing beyond that is maybe your eyes playing tricks on you with the brick wall/corner in that scene.?

Each "centered" example DOES have facial tones shown. The fact that you're thinking the two samples are one single sample is pretty indicative of how close the RustSS+UPW and your more complex mix perform. This is why I'm saying newB24 would be better served with the simpler mix..they look and perform the same.
Using ColorPlace instead of UPW would even give a slight brightness boost beyond those two samples.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #29 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
You cropped it centered between FlexiWhite and the RustSS+UPW mix.


The suspender on the left IS in the ProWhite area.
The suspender on the right is in the ProGrey area, further to the right is the N7.5 backdrop, and whatever you think you're seeing beyond that is maybe your eyes playing tricks on you with the brick wall/corner in that scene.?

Each "centered" example DOES have facial tones shown. The fact that you're thinking the two samples are one single sample is pretty indicative of how close the RustSS+UPW and your more complex mix perform. This is why I'm saying newB24 would be better served with the simpler mix..they look and perform the same.
Using ColorPlace instead of UPW would even give a slight brightness boost beyond those two samples.
Hello and Thanks for such explanation about the mixes.

Can we get a final list to buy for both mixes? I want to try both to see which one I Like more..

I was checking only (Google, Lowes and HomeDepot) and I wasn't able to get all paints so, if is possible to get the PartNumber or Reference Number or Maybe a direct link because searching for a particular name bring to much results and in this case is suppose to use exactly was suggested.

Again thanks for the mixes!!!!


Thanks...
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post #30 of 45 Old 11-11-2016, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabe00 View Post
Hello and Thanks for such explanation about the mixes.

Can we get a final list to buy for both mixes? I want to try both to see which one I Like more..

I was checking only (Google, Lowes and HomeDepot) and I wasn't able to get all paints so, if is possible to get the PartNumber or Reference Number or Maybe a direct link because searching for a particular name bring to much results and in this case is suppose to use exactly was suggested.

Again thanks for the mixes!!!!


Thanks...
HomeDepot sells the Glidden Diamond UPW (matte white) for about $15/quart and Varathane water-based matte polyurethane for around $12/quart.
Many Lowe's locations sell the quarts of Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver for $25/quart, but you'll probably have to ask them to special-order the Rustoleum Metallic Accents Pearl for you (they are a Rustoleum dealer and can order it in, but they don't normally carry it in-store on the shelf).
Alternatively, local hardware stores and smaller chains like Menard's can carry both SterlingSilver and Pearl in-store.
Amazon sells the Rustoleum Pearl too, but sometimes they're really expensive like $70/quart or only sold as 2quart-packs for $50-$60....so getting the SterlingSilver from Lowe's is best..and it'll be a good idea to see if they'll order you the Pearl.

Those should be all the ingredients (plus water) for mississippi's mix (unless he prefers a different poly besides the Varathane/Rustoleum brand).

My suggested simpler mix just uses the same Rustoleum SterlingSilver from Lowe's, and either the same Glidden Diamond UPW from HomeDepot OR the slightly cheaper ColorPlace flat interior Light-Base from Walmart hardware department for about $10/quart which makes a slightly higher-gain mix...and some water.

EDIT: sorry for the wall of text explanation instead of online store links. Many of these are easier and cheaper to buy right from the store instead of online, and I'm having trouble getting a buyable link online for the Rustoleum aside from Amazon.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 11-11-2016 at 03:30 PM.
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