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post #1 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Bdget buid-110 edgless ALR DIY-Epson 2040

So after a few year hiatus, I am venturing back in to the front projection world
Our new home has a really great room up stairs. It sold us on the house. It is 18 by 26. Our designated theater area is roughly 13 by 15
This leaves a 5 ft walkway to the back part of the room.
We will have a seating area at the back of the 15 foot zone, with a viewing position about 11.5 feet form the screen.
Our ceiling height is 8ft.
Our Epson 2040 will be ceiling mounted with a drop mount to get it to the proper height. (3 inches below the top of the screen)
I am trying to get the center of the screen in the 40 to 46 inch range from the floor. But I have to make sure there will be room for standing while game playing and not blocking the image. (guitar hero) maybe 15% of the time

The room is not presently light controlled, and with the dual nature, light control may not completely happen
For this reason I am considering the ALR screens.
Top choices are the Elite series 3d and 5d, or some version of DIY.
I have a limited history with spraying. So some trepidation there.
I have a Christmas morning hard deadline. A lot of trepidation there.
By limited light control, I mean I have blinds on two walls, including 1 double window 26 feet directly in front (behind the viewers) of the screen. Ihis window faces west. So considerable evening exposure.
I am considering black out curtains to mitigate this, in addition to the blinds in place.

I know ALR screens effect 3d. But I am not completely certain I can see the 3d anyway. I have issues with one eye that had a corneal transplant, and that transplant is not doing great these days. My last in theater experience with 3d was not awesome. Not sure 3D is all that good for the young eyes of my 10, 9,3, and 2 year olds either. Obviously eye health is much more important to me now than when I was a kiddo.
I think the Epson 2040 will be plenty bright for the grey screen.

I am planning on building a DIY screen. I bought lumber yesterday for a 110 screen. My screen wall space is 12 feet wide, by 8 feet tall. But I have some Starlet 6 speakercraft speakers (54 inches tall, 11 inches wide, in wall mounted) that will take up considerable space. (not really budget, but I had them a few years ago when budget was not a consideration, so they were in storage. Free fits my budget build)

I plan to make the screen thin, edgeless, and back lit. I want the floating zero edge look. I may band it with 1/4 material, that Mississppiman mentioned in another thread. I kinda like that idea to cover folds and absorb a small bit of extra light. This may not make the Christmas morning version of this build. But maybe in the vacation week following.

For the DIY screen frame, I am planning on building a faceframe similar to cabinetry. I purchased 1x4 pine (3/4 by 3.5 actual). I'll use pocket screws to do a rail on style type frame. 54x96 Rails will be 96 wide, and they will provide 7 of the 54 inches to the height. This leaves styles 47 inches tall.
Ill then attach a frame of 2x4's to the back of this frame. Ill have this frame attach to the 2"x side of the 2x4's giving me a 3.5 inch off set from the wall, and about 2 inches of face frame reveal outside the 2x4 backing. Insert LED ribbon lighting here for the floating look. Probably on a switched outlet, cause who wants to mess with a remote, and vampire draws, from the DC block.
I'll reinforce the corners of the face frame with 45's in each corner, and a vertical in the center. That should keep things square, and flat.
Ill use a French cleat on the back to attach to the wall, and a screw in the bottom to keep it there. The French cleat will span the back of the frame, and on the wall Ill leave it a bit shorter. That will give me some horizontal shift, incase I blow it on the PJ mount, and need a little wiggle. that zero edge will be zero forgiving. The PJ drop mount should give me the vertical shift I need. So I only need to nail the distance. I am not sure if it would be better to have the PJ mounted in front of the seating area, or behind it. I have 26 feet, and the limited zoom of the PJ to figure it out. I believe I can project 110 inches between 9 and 14 feet. Probably closer means brighter, to possible off set the ambient light. I doubt I ever go larger in screen size in this configuration, so I am not concerned there. Though I have attic space above to easily make changes if needed.

I like the idea of the elite screens 3d, and the $99 amazon rice makes it pretty competitive to most DIY screens, though possible inferior.
I also like the idea of the DIY painted screens. Though they will require the purchase of a paint sprayer. Christmas is already over budge, so there is that. I do have some other cabinets to build, so the sprayer would be reusable in the near future. I just built an entire library and hand stained and shellacked it. NEVER NEVER AGAIN!!!!! It took longer to finish than to build. This thing covers 2 walls 12 feet long floor to ceiling, with hardwood cabinetry, and convertible shelves, and a murphybed.

The Epson arrives today according to the email I just got from Amazon.

Does anyone have experience with the elite screens 3D or 5D? Do you wish you had spent the extra time and went DIY on the painted screen?
I think I read somewhere last night that pine is a bad idea for the screen frame. I have not cut anything so I can return it. Should I go with poplar? It would cost nearly triple, but only for 4 boards. Think $40 versus $20. In the scheme of things if its worth it, Ill do it. I did dig through the pile and get square flat boards.
Ill throw up some pics of the library as soon as I research just how to do that. Has nothing to do with the project. But this is the internet. At least it will show I am not a pretender.
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post #2 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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So I have to have 5 posts before I can post photos. I am sure I will get there. I am pretty sure I have an old account that from when I was in in to HT before, but I could not access that to save my life. The user name was the same minus the numeral 1. I tried to email the admin, but never got any help back, so I created a new account. I know it says not to. But After several days of waiting around I gave up on that.
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post #3 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 12:37 PM
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Spraying is easy.....it's nothing to have any real concerns about when doing it with the right type Sprayer and using well outlined technique.

I haven't really ever seen any plaudits about the Elite 3D / 5D materials as sold independently, but I have read more than a few dissapointing reviews of the actual mfg Screen versions. Some exceptions apply, however when a PJ with enough lumen output to compensate for the 3D attenuation was used, other issues such as screen artifacts came into play..

Such things are relative to the eyes and sensitivities of various users. One can only make a decision based on what they have read, coming from actual end user reviews and / or those who have tested the various materials.

With a window 26' to the rear. and a willingness to use Blackout Curtains, I'd venture to say you do not have any appreciable light concerns. Widow-wise.

A 110" screen is 54" high "view-able".
Your Screen wall is 96" tall.

When Ceiling Mounted, the top edge of the projected image is about 5% of the image height above the center of the lens.
If you want to avoid cutting into the image area when standing within 5' - 6' of the screen, the Projector must be mounted so that the len's center is at 10" down from the ceiling. For best illumination for 3D you want to set the PJ at a Throw distance of 10'-2". That closer distance also is best as it will increase the angle of projection, reducing the chance of interference when standing closer.

So if the top of the image is at 7.5" down from the Ceiling, and the image itself is 54" high, the bottom of the Image will be 34.5" off the Floor. That puts the center of the image at 62". Unless your willing to employ considerable Vertical Keystone adjustment (...strongly advised against), that is the height you must plan for so as to be able to stand closer to the screen than 7' for game immersion. Especially if you not "Hobbit-sized" .


If you paint a light Gray Screen that has at least 1.2 gain, you'll achieve a total of 35 fl reflective brightness on Normal Lamp in 2D, and 16 fl in 3D

You'll need to consider a Paint mix that has the gain you need but can also help retain / improve Contrast, and keep the viewing angles needed for the screen's placement considerations. Mounting the PJ behind the seating is not feasible because of the Gaming needs, and also because it's exhaust it in front, and with it only 7' above your head, unless your hearing is only average, when in 3D mode and pumping out 37 db, your not going to be happy.

I suggest Silver Fire v2.5 N/C That mix will cost about $65-70.00 if you can source the Metallic at Lowes in individual 32 oz Jars for $24.95 ea. and the Polyurethane at $17.00 a quart.
Treat yourself to the correct HVLP Sprayer, one that can use / has a 1.0 mm Metal Tip/Needle (also great for Staining)

It's Christmas...furgudnessake.

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post #4 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 12:52 PM
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That sounds like quite a plan, and having the CineGrey 3D material available for ~$100 is a crazy deal.
The CineGrey 3D is a well like screen which is quite similar to Carl's ALR and your Epson will have more than enough brightness and a great ceiling-mounted angle for the screen.

That projector's small zoom range means it doesn't lose a noticeable amount of brightness from being zoomed far/small, and mounting it nearer the longer end of its range (zoomed small/far) will give better overall uniformity on any ALR screen in case you're sensitive to small uniformity differences.. But Mississippi is right about mounting toward the closer/larger end of its range being better for standing gaming without blocking the beam.

It also sounds like you could potentially have fun with spraying your own screen and reusing the sprayer for later wood projects, but $99 is a ridiculous bargain for the CineGrey 3D.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 12-05-2016 at 12:59 PM.
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post #5 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Spraying is easy.....it's nothing to have any real concerns about when doing it with the right type Sprayer and using well outlined technique.

I haven't really ever seen any plaudits about the Elite 3D / 5D materials as sold independently, but I have read more than a few dissapointing reviews of the actual mfg Screen versions. Some exceptions apply, however when a PJ with enough lumen output to compensate for the 3D attenuation was used, other issues such as screen artifacts came into play..

Such things are relative to the eyes and sensitivities of various users. One can only make a decision based on what they have read, coming from actual end user reviews and / or those who have tested the various materials.

With a window 26' to the rear. and a willingness to use Blackout Curtains, I'd venture to say you do not have any appreciable light concerns. Widow-wise.

A 110" screen is 54" high "view-able".
Your Screen wall is 96" tall.

When Ceiling Mounted, the top edge of the projected image is about 5% of the image height above the center of the lens.
If you want to avoid cutting into the image area when standing within 5' - 6' of the screen, the Projector must be mounted so that the len's center is at 10" down from the ceiling. For best illumination for 3D you want to set the PJ at a Throw distance of 10'-2". That closer distance also is best as it will increase the angle of projection, reducing the chance of interference when standing closer.

So if the top of the image is at 7.5" down from the Ceiling, and the image itself is 54" high, the bottom of the Image will be 34.5" off the Floor. That puts the center of the image at 62". Unless your willing to employ considerable Vertical Keystone adjustment (...strongly advised against), that is the height you must plan for so as to be able to stand closer to the screen than 7' for game immersion. Especially if you not "Hobbit-sized" .


If you paint a light Gray Screen that has at least 1.2 gain, you'll achieve a total of 35 fl reflective brightness on Normal Lamp in 2D, and 16 fl in 3D

You'll need to consider a Paint mix that has the gain you need but can also help retain / improve Contrast, and keep the viewing angles needed for the screen's placement considerations. Mounting the PJ behind the seating is not feasible because of the Gaming needs, and also because it's exhaust it in front, and with it only 7' above your head, unless your hearing is only average, when in 3D mode and pumping out 37 db, your not going to be happy.

I suggest Silver Fire v2.5 N/C That mix will cost about $65-70.00 if you can source the Metallic at Lowes in individual 32 oz Jars for $24.95 ea. and the Polyurethane at $17.00 a quart.
Treat yourself to the correct HVLP Sprayer, one that can use / has a 1.0 mm Metal Tip/Needle (also great for Staining)

It's Christmas...furgudnessake.
Thanks for all the help. Those are great thoughts.
I saw in the past you recommended 3 sprayers. but I can not find that post to save my life.
Would Walmart blackout cloth work OK for spraying?( I realize I have to roll on the primer and spray the finish) I was there the other day and they had 3 types.
Will the 54 inch wide cloth stretch enough to cover a 54 inch frame? Or do I need to go smaller?
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post #6 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
That sounds like quite a plan, and having the CineGrey 3D material available for ~$100 is a crazy deal.
The CineGrey 3D is a well like screen which is quite similar to Carl's ALR and your Epson will have more than enough brightness and a great ceiling-mounted angle for the screen.

That projector's small zoom range means it doesn't lose a noticeable amount of brightness from being zoomed far/small, and mounting it nearer the longer end of its range (zoomed small/far) will give better overall uniformity on any ALR screen in case you're sensitive to small uniformity differences.. But Mississippi is right about mounting toward the closer/larger end of its range being better for standing gaming without blocking the beam.

It also sounds like you could potentially have fun with spraying your own screen and reusing the sprayer for later wood projects, but $99 is a ridiculous bargain for the CineGrey 3D.
Thanks for your thoughts.
This is the product on Amazon. I cant share links yet. But paste that in Amazon and it will lead you to 135 inch 3d. $99 plus free shipping.
Elite Screens Designer Cut, 135-inch 16:9, ALR DIY Ambient Light Rejecting Projector Screen Material, ZRM-135H-CINEGREY3D

Now I just need to decide which route to go. I did correspond with Elite a bit. I have asked what is the drop dead date to order and still get a few days prior to Christmas. I'll need to make my decision by then. They are the direct vender on Amazon. Seems their return communication is next business day. I would really like to try out their 5d, but it is about 40% more. I really am trying to do this on the skinniest budget. I have in the past lost myself in these projects.
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post #8 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 01:53 PM
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The CineGrey 3D is generally a little better reviewed than the 5D although they are fairly close. The 5D is a little brighter and works better with a longer throw-ratio, so your gaming setup (and brightness at the size you'll be using) are a bit better suited for the CineGrey 3D.

BlackOutCloth doesn't stretch, so you'd need a larger piece or a smaller frame.. Aiming for several inches extra on all sides to have some edges to grip while attaching it to a frame make things a lot easier.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #9 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 05:16 PM
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The OP should not be considering any Angular Reflective Material considering his Screen's height and the necessary positioning of the Projector.

On an AR screen, the angle of light reflected back to the viewer equals the angle of incidence from the Projector. While the image will be bright while one is standing, it will be greatly reduced in brightness for those sitting.

Trying to offset that by angling the Projector will only serve to reverse who gets the brighter image.

It will not work equally for both viewing positions.

To get the better performance, both the Screen and the Projector would have to be mounted considerably lower

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Last edited by MississippiMan; 12-05-2016 at 05:19 PM.
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post #10 of 35 Old 12-05-2016, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The OP should not be considering any Angular Reflective Material considering his Screen's height and the necessary positioning of the Projector.
That would effectively rule out any light-fighting paint besides plain matte-grey or a glass-bead screen.
However a retro-reflective screen would be much worse for any seated viewing (most of the brightness would head toward the ceiling instead of the seated or standing viewers), and a matte-grey screen would also be dimmer and fight less light.


With an 8ft ceiling and the screen mounted high up the wall (about 6inches from the ceiling to keep the projector slightly above 7ft-high for gaming) PJ mounted around 10ft-back and viewers at 12ft-12.5ft, the peak brightness height would happen around 36inches-height (nicely positioned between seated and standing viewers)...giving a nearly ideal brightness for seated viewers and only a modest brightness loss for standing viewers.
At these angles, you'd be hitting around 19ftL-standing and 22ftL-sitting with the Epson on Eco-lamp and the most accurate/dimmest preset using the CineGrey 3D at 110".

The only way to get even more brightness would be by using a lighter-colored/less-aggressive screen which wouldn't fight ambient light as effectively.. And 19+ftL in the projector's dimmest mode is already a lot.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #11 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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MM, and FT,
I can not thank you guys enough for all your advice. You are making it possible for me to set this up correctly.
I knew getting in to a budget setup there would be compromises.
I knew choosing between the Benq 2050 and the Epson 2040 there would be a compromise between saving a few bucks now on a PJ ($499 vs $640 on black Friday), and saving a bunch of bucks later on bulbs ($249 vs $79), but for those savings I was trading off lens shift.. I guess I did not fully appreciate what that trade off meant. Now I am fully understanding that.

So to offset the lack of lens shift, and the loss of brightness, I am considering a few more compromises:

I'll mount the screen and PJ somewhat lower. Perhaps the height that Ftoast recommended.
I think this compromise won't be terrible, because gaming while standing will be somewhat limited, but it will happen with the lights on and light rejection will be important.
I will build a platform for the seating to offset the angular problem and get the seated line of sight nearer the center of the screen.
This will allow for better vision while seated behind standing players
This will also provide for some added storage
This may provide for some additional seating in (temporary front row, maybe some beanbag type chairs or something, obviously trading off so PQ and brightness, but this row will be for the kids)


I am heavily leaning towards the Elite 3D at this point. I would like a totally DIY painted screen. But I am getting over the budget already. A painted screen will cost $50 for the screen material, $70 for the paint, and $50 for a budget sprayer. Not to mention probably a week of spraying to get the coats correct. I can get a 130 inch roll of Cinegrey 3D for $99 delivered, savings $20 to $70 (modest, but still a savings, but also a savings of a week of paint and prep)

I bought this PJ mount. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It has a minimum drop of 12.5 inches from the ceiling, and up to 23 inches. I originally thought this would be a good alternative to lens shift. I did not think about all the reflective issues.
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post #12 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 06:50 AM
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It seems the time has come again to call the proverbial "Spade a Spade".

I disagree wholeheartedly with your determination that a correctly formulated and applied Paint would be as ineffective as a purposefully Mfg Angular Reflective screen.

The multi-layered, translucent coating diffused the reflected light enough to disperse that light more equally than Angular or Direct Reflective approaches do. This has been / is proven by a great many others who have full sized Screens. While it may be true that there is some degree of lessening of either vertical or horizontal viewing angles under worst case examples of screen / projector placement, it has NEVER been anywhere near as predominant as you (..and a very few others...) have alluded. In fact, the reduction is so insignificant under most every circumstance, that pointing any such small degree of loss amounts to simply trying to disprove something on the flimsiest of pretext-es

Others like yourself have taken up such a narrow minded and false assumptions based on the limited experience and knowledge they have. And too often they simply and stubbornly refuse to consider every aspect of the combination of actions inherent in such formulas. But it's also apparent that eventually they too embrace the same ideas once they finally prove them to themselves.

I've watched it happen over the many years I've been on this Forum. First and foremost it was, "You cannot get the same quality of Image from a Painted surface as a Mfg Screen"....well that was certainly not true. Then it was, "You cannot get the same results from a singularly applied Paint coating that you can from a multi-layered approach". That was easily enough disproved. Next it was, "You cannot see the benefit from applying a paint over a Silver Metallic Coating." That persisted even after Screen Mfg embraced that exact method.

When Paint formulas became more Translucent, and the effect was heightened, the next weapon in the "Naysayer's arsenal " was, "Metallic Content is detrimental". Then suddenly...other versions (supposedly preferred) where heralded as being something "New and better", and the attempt to belittle and dismiss the use of Mica-Based Formulas as ineffective and incorrect became popular within the small crowd of those not wishing to see such popular acceptance of such.

For sometime, the application of such translucent formulas over Mirrored substrates were shown to produce exceptional results, yet again, many of the same individuals waged a campaign against such usage. Yet again, the refusal to acknowledge that some of the highest performing and most expensive Mfg Screens employed exactly that approach. It is, was, and always has been a case of selective myopia, especially when the individuals had their own agendas to pursue, "Simple is good enough"....or, "Cheaper is best".

Now we have ALR Formulas that use bright white reflective substrates, and Translucent, Metallic infused coatings of various shades such as Silver Fire, and again, individuals...and specifically you Ftoast, continually try to either disprove their worthiness, or in the least make them comparable to lessor effective paint applications. And a primary reason being that you still have yet to ever show any effective, and correctly done example. So persistently have you pursued this approach that you have placed every comment and purported "example" you post into a position that it must out of hand be considered false...or at least misinformation intended to convince others of your own opinions and preferences.

I have tried hard to take a measured approach by suggesting a variety of applications over those I KNEW were best to consider, only to see you time and again attempt to shoot down every suggestion I made that did refer others to more advanced paint applications. And you do so using the most obviously incorrect methods and blatantly wrong assumptions based on wrongly done comparisons using smaller, ineffectual samples.

The actual truth being, every single Painted application now being shown on this Forum has it's roots in the original applications previously mentioned....even your own. Not single one is "original"...and almost all borrow what approach they take from what has been presented on here over the last 15 years. And that includes most every Commercially offered Screen paint, as well as a few Mfg Screen applications as well.

Now all that is actually fine and good...really quite to be expected considering the open source aspect of this Forum. Frankly speaking, had I myself not pursued the advocacy of Silver Fire applications for the last 12 years against all those determined to bury it, it's doubtful than many, if indeed almost any of the current iterations of DIY Paints would be so prevalent. Instead I welcomed the variations...when they were done in the spirit of DIY'ism.

But when select individuals repeatedly attempt to dismiss and dissuade others through misinformation, or downright false comments or assumptions, I feel the need to call them out. Certainly that is what seems to drive some of those same attempts directed towards myself. The big difference being I have mostly ceased trying to prove anything....opting to let the usage and commentary by the end user speak for what is supposed to be a "choice driven" thing based on an individual's own efforts.....not the determined efforts being made to convince others a / an particular application is ineffective or not worth the effort or expense.

Is this post my own attempt at using this instance (...and the OP's thread...) as a Bully Pulpit? Perhaps...well, almost certainly so. But again, it is on this thread that again another statement alluding to a performance defect that does not exist (...or is grossly overstated...) has been made, and a wrongful comparison put forth as if it was already and conclusively proven without any doubt whatsoever.

I myself have in the past shown many examples that served to refute statements such as the one made above. Using both conventionally placed, normal Throw PJs as well as Short Throw varieties, all on screens sized from 90" to 200". Many in such adverse lighting conditions that it would seen silly to even attempt such. Yet no matter what, they always seem fodder for responses and retorts that attempt to dismiss what is so obviously shown, and always without any visual proofs to the contrary.

It's well past the time for such obviously incorrect attempts at dissuading others to cease, and to let the members judge things themselves from the advice and help they receive, and their own efforts they make to that effect. The proofs are / will always be in the end results....not just words to the contrary.

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post #13 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 07:01 AM
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tribizwiz1,

I fully understand your reasons and reasoning. And I can agree, the price seems right, and will be as long as the choice works out. It's gotta be hard to resist, especially when considering both budget and time restraints.

To mitigate the effects of the material, I strongly suggest you hang the screen at the proposed height, then rig up a table with some various adjustable levels, and experiment with both the suggested image/lens negative Offset, and the use of some degree PJ Tilt that requires a small amount of Keystone adjustment. This should mitigate the brightness loss, or in the least help to equalize the effect between a standing and setting position.

To you, I apologize for the last post directed elsewhere. Every member's effort means enough to me (...and themselves...) that I do take some personal interest in their eventual satisfaction. That being so, it is extremely hard for me to settle back and watch things develop that might adversely affect the decisions and judgements made.

It's simply a case of who I am, and how I believe others appreciate that fact. I can only hope I'm not too far off.

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post #14 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 07:13 AM
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I would suggest a different Mount...but obviously the budget is a big factor. Your simply not going to get the infinate adjustability you need using a $16.00 mount.

The mount shown only offers to a minimum drop distance that when combined with the Lens Center height will place the Lens Center at approx 14" from the Ceiling. That would then make the screens top view-able edge at 11". And that is too low. So again, using a upward tilt and some vertical Keystone adjustment, you can compensate perhaps just enough to make it work.

Sadly though, you PJ's bottom edge will be under 7' off the Floor. Frankly, if Keystone is going to be needed to be used, it would serve you better to use a Mount that would place the PJ at 6" - 7" off the Ceiling, and use a downward Tilt and Keystone to fix the image at the previously discussed height.

BTW, just so you know...it takes me only 2 days most of Prep & Painting Time, and the actual painting....about 3.5 hours. It's never as complicated or as time consuming as those who have never attempted it seem to think it is / will be.

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post #15 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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The OP should not be considering any Angular Reflective Material considering his Screen's height and the necessary positioning of the Projector.

On an AR screen, the angle of light reflected back to the viewer equals the angle of incidence from the Projector. While the image will be bright while one is standing, it will be greatly reduced in brightness for those sitting.

Trying to offset that by angling the Projector will only serve to reverse who gets the brighter image.

It will not work equally for both viewing positions.

To get the better performance, both the Screen and the Projector would have to be mounted considerably lower
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That would effectively rule out any light-fighting paint besides plain matte-grey or a glass-bead screen.
However a retro-reflective screen would be much worse for any seated viewing (most of the brightness would head toward the ceiling instead of the seated or standing viewers), and a matte-grey screen would also be dimmer and fight less light.


With an 8ft ceiling and the screen mounted high up the wall (about 6inches from the ceiling to keep the projector slightly above 7ft-high for gaming) PJ mounted around 10ft-back and viewers at 12ft-12.5ft, the peak brightness height would happen around 36inches-height (nicely positioned between seated and standing viewers)...giving a nearly ideal brightness for seated viewers and only a modest brightness loss for standing viewers.
At these angles, you'd be hitting around 19ftL-standing and 22ftL-sitting with the Epson on Eco-lamp and the most accurate/dimmest preset using the CineGrey 3D at 110".

The only way to get even more brightness would be by using a lighter-colored/less-aggressive screen which wouldn't fight ambient light as effectively.. And 19+ftL in the projector's dimmest mode is already a lot.
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tribizwiz1,

I fully understand your reasons and reasoning. And I can agree, the price seems right, and will be as long as the choice works out. It's gotta be hard to resist, especially when considering both budget and time restraints.

To mitigate the effects of the material, I strongly suggest you hang the screen at the proposed height, then rig up a table with some various adjustable levels, and experiment with both the suggested image/lens negative Offset, and the use of some degree PJ Tilt that requires a small amount of Keystone adjustment. This should mitigate the brightness loss, or in the least help to equalize the effect between a standing and setting position.

To you, I apologize for the last post directed elsewhere. Every member's effort means enough to me (...and themselves...) that I do take some personal interest in their eventual satisfaction. That being so, it is extremely hard for me to settle back and watch things develop that might adversely affect the decisions and judgements made.

It's simply a case of who I am, and how I believe others appreciate that fact. I can only hope I'm not too far off.

Absolutely no worries here. You are putting your substantial knowledge and experience to work for forum members, at no cost to members. That is pretty awesome in my book.



I have some more questions about my setup, but I think Ill research your Silver Fire 2.5 a little more and then come back with my questions. I do not want to ask you things you have probably answered a thousand times.
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I would suggest a different Mount...but obviously the budget is a big factor. Your simply not going to get the infinate adjustability you need using a $16.00 mount.

The mount shown only offers to a minimum drop distance that when combined with the Lens Center height will place the Lens Center at approx 14" from the Ceiling. That would then make the screens top view-able edge at 11". And that is too low. So again, using a upward tilt and some vertical Keystone adjustment, you can compensate perhaps just enough to make it work.

THis mount is adjustable from 11 to 23 inches. So I should be able to drop the lens center to well below 7 feet (6'8" or so), and still keep the bottom of the Pj at 6'5". I was planning on using a shorter wall mounted French cleat to allow the screen to be adjusted horizontally. Hopefully helping with adjustability.
Does any of this help with my top viewable edge and angles? Will raising my seating area on a platform help?


Sadly though, you PJ's bottom edge will be under 7' off the Floor. Frankly, if Keystone is going to be needed to be used, it would serve you better to use a Mount that would place the PJ at 6" - 7" off the Ceiling, and use a downward Tilt and Keystone to fix the image at the previously discussed height.

BTW, just so you know...it takes me only 2 days most of Prep & Painting Time, and the actual painting....about 3.5 hours. It's never as complicated or as time consuming as those who have never attempted it seem to think it is / will be.
What screen material would you use as the base. local sources only offer 54 inches tall
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post #17 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 08:52 AM
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It seems the time has come again to call the proverbial "Spade a Spade".

I disagree wholeheartedly with your determination that a correctly formulated and applied Paint would be as ineffective as a purposefully Mfg Angular Reflective screen.

Spoiler!

I'm not sure why you're arguing like this. I simply said that an angular-reflective screen (such as SilverFire or the more aggressive CineGrey3D) would be the best overall choice for this setup with the projector mounted high (lens-center about 10"-11" from the ceiling) and the screen's top a little higher (about 6inches from the ceiling). The setup would have the projector high enough for the occasional standing (and walking around without bumping your head) and the screen would be in the perfect position to work well for both standing and seated viewers...and this avoids using any digital keystone correction which is always nice to avoid.

I agreed early on that spraying a screen might be a fun project and trbizwiz1 sounds like the kind of fellow who'd also get some extra mileage out of a sprayer that's good for both thin paints as well as stain/poly/sealer..win/win.
A less aggressive angular-reflective screen like SilverFire would fight a bit less light, but that also means it'll lose even less brightness in the standing/sitting positions..a great trade-off if the viewers require more brightness and less light-fighting.

I do think that in this case with lights often on, the Epson2040 on a 110" is more likely to benefit from the additional light-fighting strength of the darker-colored CineGrey3D screen and less likely to benefit from additional brightness from SilverFire (or any other lighter-colored positive-gain ALR screen) beyond the already substantial brightness it'll be making. But either screen would still work well.
Factoring in the Christmas budget and the limited time-frame leans toward the lower-priced, faster, and higher guarantee of success granted by the $99 paint-free CineGrey3D.

Painting is great and painted screens are a lot of fun to both build and use, but trying to rush through one makes it significantly less fun and potentially less great-looking if any mistakes are made. If the ingredients and build can be put together early enough to avoid any manic "rushing toward the finish" by the time it comes to paint, excellent..if any of the important ingredients takes a little longer to ship or some life gets in the way, the rush to get the painting done at the end isn't particularly good for the screen nor the person painting it.


After Christmas when you're not working under a time-limit you could paint up a sample (SilverFire is a good option) and tape it up onto the CineGrey3D. Then you could decide if you prefer a more aggressive light-fighter or a less aggressive/lighter painted screen's extra brightness in person.
Considering the price of the CineGrey3D being only a couple dollars more than a shipped roll of FlexiWhite, it might be possible to carefully remove the material and mount the material backward (especially if you used screen-tite or wrapped it around the front and sides to the back and stapled along the back of the frame) and then paint the backside of the material...stretch it without trimming the edges and spray thinned white primer dustings to make the back-side white, give that a light sanding, paint about 5dusters of SilverFire, give another light sanding and paint the final ~3dusters.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #18 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
[/spoiler]
I'm not sure why you're arguing like this. I simply said that an angular-reflective screen (such as SilverFire or the more aggressive CineGrey3D) would be the best overall choice for this setup with the projector mounted high (lens-center about 10"-11" from the ceiling) and the screen's top a little higher (about 6inches from the ceiling).
Because this is what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
That would effectively rule out any light-fighting paint besides plain matte-grey or a glass-bead screen.
...........which specifically implies that Silver Fire is Angular Reflective...which it clearly is not, given the wealth of shots I have provided taken from directly underneath such screens, every one taken at almost a 90 degree angle.

Such statements which are wholly lacking in fact can serve to make some decide against an application that would indeed offer them more flexibility. Besides all that, it's already been stated by the OP that ambient light is not nearly as much an issue as is the Image's positioning on the wall. I myself made note of that here:
Quote:
With a window 26' to the rear. and a willingness to use Blackout Curtains, I'd venture to say you do not have any appreciable light concerns.
Really, in the OP's case, only the budget seems to be the primary determining factor. (...with my help, I can easily get him set well before Christmas...) With Elite obviously trying to hone in on the DIY market, the sheer fact they can and are willing to part with CineGrey3D for so little kinda states what frame of mind they are in...sales-wise. Sort of like seeing a company like Screen Innovations trying whatever they can to sell a Black Diamond material package. (...they aren't, just a for instance...) Sales are off for both companies. And less than enthusiastic customer reviews are a big part of it...along with higher than reasonable prices for the Mfg versions themselves.

Then there is the unknown factor...just how easily will the CineGray 3d lend itself to being attached to a DIY Frame. I would think the use of Screen Tight would be called for..not Stapling. And there lies an additional expense.

I'm going to take this time / opportunity to spill a Trade secret. Without mentioning a name, there is a DIY Screen Paint that has managed to employ the use of extremely small macroscopic Glass Beads, therein reaping the advantages of both gain and still diffusing the reflect-ivity to a far greater extent than other Glass Beaded applications.

Innovation and a refusal to accept conventional thinking can lead to discoveries and methods heretofore thought to be improbable...if indeed impossible to those who simply don't "go there", or refuse to for whatever reasons.

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post #19 of 35 Old 12-06-2016, 05:47 PM
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......which specifically implies that Silver Fire is Angular Reflective...which it clearly is not, given the wealth of shots I have provided taken from directly underneath such screens, every one taken at almost a 90 degree angle.
SilverFire is angular-reflective. Like every other light-grey angular-reflective screen, getting a good picture from directly underneath the screen is easy.
I understand your confusion about this though, so don't feel bad.
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Such statements which are wholly lacking in fact can serve to make some decide against an application that would indeed offer them more flexibility. Besides all that, it's already been stated by the OP that ambient light is not nearly as much an issue as is the Image's positioning on the wall. I myself made note of that here:
Really, in the OP's case, only the budget seems to be the primary determining factor. (...with my help, I can easily get him set well before Christmas...)
Either screen choice will provide more than enough ftL/brightness, and both should provide enough light-fighting with the windows nicely darkened and lights low or off.
A couple weeks should also be plenty of time for getting everything together and ready for either screen (though the CineGrey3D won't require the painting nor paint-prep).
The budget is a bit steep for the spray-paint option with because a paintable surface of FlexiWhite or Sintra/Komex is still going to cost ~$85 (shipped rolled instead of folded), plus $75+ for all the paints, plus the cost of an appropriate HVLP sprayer..the CineGrey surface can easily end up costing half as much.
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Then there is the unknown factor...just how easily will the CineGray 3d lend itself to being attached to a DIY Frame. I would think the use of Screen Tight would be called for..not Stapling. And there lies an additional expense.
It sounds like you may not be very familar with the CineGrey3D material. It is very similar to FlexiWhite, and can be stretched and stapled (or used with screen-tite) just the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
I'm going to take this time / opportunity to spill a Trade secret. Without mentioning a name, there is a DIY Screen Paint that has managed to employ the use of extremely small macroscopic Glass Beads, therein reaping the advantages of both gain and still diffusing the reflect-ivity to a far greater extent than other Glass Beaded applications.
There have been several different versions of these painted screens, but with a projector being ceiling-mounted the retro-reflective brightness will go to waste trying to send light back toward the ceiling instead of the viewers (the seated viewers get particularly robbed).


Like I've already said though, an angular-reflective painted screen (like SilverFire) is another good option here as long as the additional budget and bit of extra work/time required aren't too much hindrance.
However while either option will work well, the CineGrey3D happens to be faster, less expensive and contains fewer variables for something to go wrong before the deadline.

Both will look good. The CineGrey3D just makes things a little better in this case.


Also good advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse View Post
Do yourself a big favor and break all the edges that will come into contact with the screen material with some 100 grit sand paper or file. My flexiwhite ripped on an outside corner because I didn't break the edges.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 12-07-2016 at 07:53 AM.
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post #20 of 35 Old 12-07-2016, 06:55 AM
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And like I've said...and have conclusively shown whereas you have not, Silver Fire is Not Angular Reflective t any appreciable degree worth mention, and no amount of repetitious claims to the contrary will make it so.

You cannot point to a single reported instance of any Member backing such a claim, whereas I can state irrevocably that no such complaint has ever crossed this Forum's Thread. Instead, it has always been reported to be the exact opposite.

As for the CineGray3D Fabric option, again you state your assumptions it will be quicker and less expensive, all without knowing if the OP will even be successful in effectively attaching it to a simple Frame. You have not held a large section of that material in your hand, have you? You do not know how well it will wrap around corners...if at all. If the viewed results are less than desirable, or worse, a failed attempt at attachment happens, it won't be less expensive....it will be a waste of time and money.

I don't wish that on the OP, of course, I'm only pointing out that advice or recommendations given to others without supportive knowledge and actual experience is tantamount to being irresponsible. In the least, a disclaimer-like advisement that there are more things to consider than blindly counting on something being less expensive or quicker should be made. If that warning is take under advisement and the individual proceeds apace, then the weight of any failure is directed where it belongs.

Myself, I avoid taking such a nondescript, detached approach. Instead I advise people on things I absolutely am assured will work, and work hard to make sure they will work. And so far, that has worked out quite well.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by trbizwiz1
What screen material would you use as the base. local sources only offer 54 inches tall



I would use Flexi-White, as that material is very easily stretched and wrapped onto DIY Frames, and it accepts painted coatings with no describable issues. I've used it on Screens up to 200" diagonal, so I know it will work.

It's also not that expensive. A 16:9 - 79" x 126" (144" diagonal) piece is only $69.00.

I would think that someone else could have mentioned that long before this.

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post #21 of 35 Old 12-07-2016, 07:04 AM
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It sounds like you didn't read my previous post, Mississippi.
The FlexiWhite is only that price if you get it shipped folded in a box, shipping on a roll to avoid creases costs $20 more..$85-$89.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #22 of 35 Old 12-07-2016, 07:44 AM
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It's still a known value, both price and work-ability wise.

That makes it a more viable and reasonable choice under most any circumstance as opposed to an unknown. Especially in a late-hour decision making circumstance.

....and no...I didn't open your "Spoiler".

It should be noted, a ways back the OP stated he really had a good use for a HVLP Sprayer beyond that needed for spraying a screen, so continually fixating on the additional cost seems to be redundant.

That cost of the paint...well that cannot be helped.

The real truth? The OP could easily could assemble everything he needs to paint by this coming Monday. A full 2 weeks before Christmas.

If he wanted to, that is. In the end we both must respect his choice.

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post #23 of 35 Old 12-07-2016, 08:22 AM
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It's still a known value, both price and work-ability wise.
That makes it a more viable and reasonable choice under most any circumstance as opposed to an unknown. Especially in a late-hour decision making circumstance.

....and no...I didn't open your "Spoiler".

It should be noted, a ways back the OP stated he really had a good use for a HVLP Sprayer beyond that needed for spraying a screen, so continually fixating on the additional cost seems to be redundant.

That cost of the paint...well that cannot be helped.

The real truth? The OP could easily could assemble everything he needs to paint by this coming Monday. A full 2 weeks before Christmas.

If he wanted to, that is. In the end we both must respect his choice.
Ahh, that explains how you missed where I'm agreeing with some of this already.
I'll edit the earlier post to un-spoiler it.

The CineGrey3D material is only an unknown to you because you simply don't have as much experience here with these different paints and materials, and that's okay..it's why there are multiple members on this forum giving advice in the first place, because one single person can't know everything.

For those who don't know; the CineGrey3D DesignerCutSeries material is a light, flexible, stretchable material like FlexiGrey/FlexiWhite which works well being pulled tight around the smoothed edges of a frame and stapled (or screen-tite'd) along the outside or rear of the frame. It isn't a thick, stiff, taught material like BlackOutCloth or fiber-reiinforced roll-up screen materials.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #24 of 35 Old 12-07-2016, 02:37 PM
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Here is a Customer Review off Amazon that dictates a reoccurring issue specifically with the CineGray 3D:

Quote:
The packaging issue that other reviewers mentioned is completely factual. The material has bubbles and markings all over it from being rolled around a thick cardboard bolt.
This ruins an otherwise amazing screen. It was really sad to have this amazing picture quality ruined right out of the package. Until this issue gets resolved, I recommend not purchasing the product because it is that bad right now. I hope this review helps someone.
It seems the Material is made and packaged in China, shipped to Amazon where it is stored, then shipped to the Buyer....so it's in the "shipping - storage -shipping loop" a long while.

Caveat Emptor.
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post #25 of 35 Old 12-07-2016, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
I'm going to take this time / opportunity to spill a Trade secret. Without mentioning a name, there is a DIY Screen Paint that has managed to employ the use of extremely small macroscopic Glass Beads, therein reaping the advantages of both gain and still diffusing the reflect-ivity to a far greater extent than other Glass Beaded applications.

Quote:
There have been several different versions of these painted screens, but with a projector being ceiling-mounted the retro-reflective brightness will go to waste trying to send light back toward the ceiling instead of the viewers (the seated viewers get particularly robbed).

And BTW...again you speak without have a shred of knowledge about what your referring to. Just because someone mentions "Glass Beads" you immediately make a conclusion.

The screen referred to is not in any way a Retro Reflective application, so your comments are almost ludicrous in their attempt yo be counter productive to mine.

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post #26 of 35 Old 12-12-2016, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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The screen ended up 1/16 too tall. I'll hit the top and bottom with some sand paper. That should get it closer. This pine sands quickly.
I still have to round over all the edges so the screen fabric won't rip.
The fabric is not in. Should be here Wednesday. I went with the cinegrey 3D.
I'm going to mount the epson from the ceiling. The bottom will be at 6'5".
The top of the screen will be at 6'8". My eyes should be in the middle third. If I need a better angle I'll put the seating on a riser.
I still have wiring to do and some cabinets to build. Painting just isn't in the cards for me.
I really appreciate all the help.
At this point I wish I had gone with the Benq 2050 for the lens shift. I also would still really like to try out the silver fire 2.5 at some point.
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post #30 of 35 Old 01-05-2017, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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