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post #1 of 25 Old 01-01-2017, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Creating the Gray Glow Paint Mix

Disclaimer:
I want to be clear, this thread is not a critique of Silver Fire. Silver Fire has proven to be a great mix for a great many people. That said, there are some things about my specific application of that mix that isn't working for me. MississippiMan and others have made it clear that they doesn't see the same issues I am seeing or to the same degree. My problem could be my mix, my spray technique, my primer, my projector, my dry times, my number of coats, the grounding in my house, my vision sensitivities, any number of things. Regardless, I've given up on trying to find the problem with my specific application of Silver Fire. I recommend anyone who thinks Silver Fire will work for them to try Silver Fire first. It is proven to work great for many people. This thread is simply my attempt to find a mix based off what I learned from Silver Fire that improves upon the issues I couldn't solve.

Background:
I started a beginner thread a couple of months ago looking for help painting my first screen for my simple theater. Like so many other DIYers on this forum that simple request has turned into an obsession and I'm now looking to create a screen mix that works for my preferences. This thread is where I'll post my progress looking for the right screen mix for me and I would love some help from any veterans who may want to lend a hand as a stumble along.

The screen I'm using now and looking to replace is a Silver Fire 2.5 ~3.0 screen. Silver Fire is a great screen paint. However, my mix and application of Silver Fire had the issues of greater flashlighting and more graininess than I would like. These things are somewhat subjective and I probably did some things wrong being a beginner so I don't want to claim all Silver Fire mixes have these issues. But, mine did and I cannot seem to fix them. It may be that I am simply more sensitive to these artifacts than others. I tried to lighten up my SF mix with more UPW but I found that although adding more white reduced the grain and flash lighting, it also significantly decreased my contrast at a much greater rate. Showing that the metallics do more for white levels in Silver Fire than deluting them with UPW can put back. I've also tried other tweaks to my existing SF mix to no avail.

Rather than continuing to try and adjust my existing SF mix I decided to try taking a more fresh look at the problem.

I'm going to call this paint Gray Glow. Since I'm basically hoping to find a paint mix like Silver Fire, but with less. Less dark of a base color and a less gain (hopefully ending up with less of the artifacts commonly associated with gain). I hope that by moving those dials back I'll find a screen with less grain and a more even brightness while finding adequate contrast. My theater is mostly ambient light controlled so I don't need a strong ambient light rejecting screen. However, I do have a cheap not very bright projector (BenQ w7000) and a larger than average screen (154" 2.35:1). So, I need a grayish screen to help my projector with contrast and I need to find/retain as much gain as I can while attempting keep grain and flashlighting below my subjective tolerances. That is the balance I'm trying to find.

If anyone is aware of an existing mix that might meet my needs I'd love to hear about it. But, as I've learned about the various give and takes of a theater screen and where my preferences sit in that spectrum. I no longer expect to simply find one.

I've already covered Silver Fire and my thoughts on that. The other screen mix I've tried is Cream and Sugar (C&S) Ultra mix from the Home Theater Shack (HTS) forums. The HTS members go about screen paint creation very scientifically. They seem to believe that grain in a screen should be non existent, a screen should have mostly perfect light uniformity, and should have excellent color balanced. They test all of those standards with tools and sensors. This makes their screens very technically sound. However, because of their aversion to grain and screen unevenness their mixes are often very low gain and generally boring. That is what I found with the C&S mix I tried. Good colors, but the paint wasn't grey enough to help my projector with contrast and I actually found that I prefer my screen to have a little bit of grain and a little more pop than what I got with C&S. I think a little grain can help blend/diffuse projector pixels and I'm willing to lose some screen uniformity if I can get get some improved gain and contrast.

Getting Started:
My first attempt is a mix between C&S and SF metallics.

I'm starting out with the C&S N9 mix (with half a measure of water) as a color meter tested base with close to 1.0 gain. Then I created a Rustoleum SS and Pearl White mix which I can incrementally added hoping to eventually achieve my desired balance of grain, gain, and screen uniformity to match my preferences

My metallic mix is currently 8:1. (8 parts Pearl White 1 part SS)

I've gotten decent results with a ~1:1 ratio. (1 parts C&S 1 parts Metallic mix) It appears to match the brightness of Silver Fire (on axis) with just a touch of grain and very little uniformity issues. I'll post some pictures later. If I were to stop today I would could go with this mix and be happy. But I'd like to try a few more tests first.

I'm a little nervous that the more of my custom metallic mix I add the further from C&S's base color neutrality I will get. Does anyone have any tips on how I check for basic color neutrality in a mix without buying a color meter?

I also haven't tested any polyurethane or Gold Acrylic in the mix yet. I'd love some pointers as to what role those 2 components add to Silver Fire to help determine if I should attempt to incorporate either of those.

I'll try and keep the thread up to date as I go.

Mike

Last edited by youngm; 01-02-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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post #2 of 25 Old 01-01-2017, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are some pictures:

Main screen is my Silver Fire v2.5 3.0 mix
Right is C&S Ultra
Middle is 3oz C&S 1oz metallic mix
Left is ~1oz C&S ~1oz metallic mix (derived from left overs of 3:1 mix so not completely accurate)



Here is an attempt to test edge dimming of the samples (Not a very good representation but I think it shows some)




SF vs C&S Grain:


SF vs 3:1 Grain


SF vs 1:1 Grain


Some movie pictures. I tried to provide some bright scenes and some dim scenes.



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post #3 of 25 Old 01-01-2017, 07:46 PM
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There seems to a strange vertical banding across the entire background screen from left to right on ALL the screenshots. ...and of course this follows from the on axis to the off axis shots as well...which doesn't necessarily have anything to with edge dimming. In addition there seems to centralized vertical hotspot across all the screenshots as well. Both the vertical banding and the vertical hotspotting are effecting not only the background screen but all the samples as well.

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post #4 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 06:36 AM
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A very cool demonstration so far and a neat idea for experimenting between those mixes to get things you like from each.

What metallic/s are you using for Cream&Sugar?

The Rustoleum silver and pearl metallic paints are nicely very close to neutral, so adding them for extra gain shouldn't hurt your mix's neutrality enough to see a difference in that regard.

Adding gold is used to warm up a mix (to balance a cold mix OR simply because some prefer a warmer color-balance instead of perfect neutral).
Poly is added for a couple reasons:
-it can make mixes friendlier to spray (it typically dries fairly fast which helps the mix avoid running/sagging, AND it is thinner than most paints which means it helps thin the mix so it goes on and dries smoother),
-it also helps diffuse/matte the mix but does so significantly less aggressively than flat/matte paint typically does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post
There seems to a strange vertical banding across the entire background screen from left to right on ALL the screenshots. ...and of course this follows from the on axis to the off axis shots as well...which doesn't necessarily have anything to with edge dimming. In addition there seems to centralized vertical hotspot across all the screenshots as well. Both the vertical banding and the vertical hotspotting are effecting not only the background screen but all the samples as well.
Are you talking about the horizontal color-banding caused by the camera's fast exposure catching the projector refresh?
If so, that isn't visible in-person.. Just on camera.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #5 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 07:04 AM
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No. I left the horizontal banding alone. I know quite well that is a pj issue...and yes if the camera can pick it up so too can the eyes as well. Often,.you'll get horizontal banding from poorly ground outlets or a ground loop...I see it and correct for quite often in my business installations.

I am talking about the vertical banding from left to right on all and specifically the on axis shots. It's as if someone poorly rolled the screen in a vertical pattern and got different amounts of paint on the roller on each pass...nor were the passes blended/feathered in together. That's the effect that seems to be prevalent.

I apologize that it very hard to have much of anything because of both the vertical and horizontal issues going on.
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post #6 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
There seems to a strange vertical banding across the entire background screen from left to right on ALL the screenshots.
Hi pb_maxxx,

I do have some slight wall issues (small stud dips) over towards the right side of the screen above the 3:1 and C&S samples that I intend to try and improve before I spray my wall again. I barely notice those when watching movies on the SF so I'm not too concerned if my final repair doesn't perfectly fix them. The SF was sprayed right to left on the entire screen.

I think I do slightly see some vertical lines as the background screen dims towards the edges. I haven't noticed that with the naked eye I'll have to take a closer look tonight.

I certainly don't notice any of the horizontal rainbow banding with my naked eye, but I may just not be sensitive to it. I'll need to look closer.

I have no idea how to take good screen shots with my phone camera. I'll see if I can find some way to improve exposure times to make the pictures more like what my eye is seeing.

Thanks!
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post #7 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
What metallic/s are you using for Cream&Sugar?
I'm using the recommended Liquitex Basics Silver Acrylic

Quote:
it also helps diffuse/matte the mix but does so significantly less aggressively than flat/matte paint typically does.
I'm interested in seeing the effect as I add poly to my mix. Do you have a recommended amount to add where I might start seeing a difference? Would I notice anything if I added 2oz of poly to 8oz of paint?
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post #8 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 09:50 AM
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Add at minimum 1/4 Poly to mix volume....at most 1/3rd total Volume. 1/3rd is the more normal amount, and represents the ratio used in most SF mix formulas.

Something else has to be the cause if your seeing any significant dimming or Flash lighting. SF does not exhibit such overt tendencies when mixed in the proper ratios and using the correct ingredients.

The very way you describe things suggest that you have a light uniformity issue with the PJ itself. How far back in the Zoom range is it located?

How new / old is the Lamp in the PJ?

The number / thickness of the coats can also be an issue, as what with SF being so translucent, a "too deep" coating can absorb enough light at / around the edges to accentuate any lack of near perfect uniformity.

Another issue is the color / shade of the under-laying paint / primer. Anything other than white will also tend to attenuate reflected light, more at the edges though.

Both the last two things really do not apply to actual "Flash lighting", which is a noticeably brighter, almost washed out central image. However if the Center is significantly brighter than the edges, some might jump to guess that Hot spotting or Flash lighting is occurring.

Lastly, since you shooting such a large image, any variables as far as uniformity or lens'ing / light output will be exacerbated.

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post #9 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Something else has to be the cause if your seeing any significant dimming or Flash lighting. SF does not exhibit such overt tendencies when mixed in the proper ratios and using the correct ingredients.
I agree. There has to be something wrong with me, my mix, my spray technique, my primer, my projector, my dry times, my number of coats, the grounding in my house, my vision sensitivities, something other than Silver Fire itself. I want to make it clear that this thread is not a critique of Silver Fire. Silver Fire works great for lots of people and if it works them it is a better mix than this one.

That said, there is something wrong with my specific application and or use of Silver Fire and I'm done trying to fix it. In all the samples and tests I've done the only way I've seen improvement is in toning down Silver Fire. By doing so I know I'm getting something less good than Silver Fire but at this point I'm ready to settle for something less good. That is what this paint mix attempting to do. Diminish Silver Fire power and compensate for that by attempting to balance what I have going for me, mainly a mostly light controlled room.

I'll try to add a more clear disclaimer in the first post to help ensure people don't think this thread is about how I think Silver Fire is a bad mix.

Thanks.
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post #10 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Add at minimum 1/4 Poly to mix volume....at most 1/3rd total Volume. 1/3rd is the more normal amount, and represents the ratio used in most SF mix formulas.
Thanks MM. I'll try adding that much to one of my test mixes and see if I notice any difference in my samples.
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post #11 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I figured out my camera problem. My projector was running at 24hz. Pictures are much better now. I'll post some more tonight hopefully with my next mix attempts. Here is a better test photo from my not yet light controlled room. Shows how good SF is and rejecting ambient light compared to C&S or my mix.
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post #12 of 25 Old 01-02-2017, 11:30 PM
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If you have a good amount of poly already, would it be alright for me to suggest trying a specific FolkArt mix which just uses FolkArt metallic, poly and water..or would you prefer to work with the ingredients you've already gotten?
I've had better results (noticeably cleaner/clearer) spraying the FolkArt mixes than I have spraying Rustoleum based mixes. If you already have a few spare ounces of poly and something smooth and white to spray paint onto for a test-panel, you only need to grab a single tube of FolkArt metallic "pearl white" or "sterling silver" along with a tube of FolkArt metallic "gunmetal gray".. About $4 total from Joann's/Michael's or Walmart art/craft department. But I would totally understand any reluctance to try even more things after everything you've already been trying.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #13 of 25 Old 01-03-2017, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I've hit an wall with my current attempts using the Rustoleum metallics. Out of my previous tests I decided I liked the brightness of the 3:1 sample the best. Monday I I tried a mix of 2 parts C&S to 1 part Metallic mix and attempted to lighten the metallic mix to match the same color of my 3:1 mix. I didn't quite tint the metallic mix correctly and my 2:1 sample ended up a hair darker than my 3:1 mix but the 3:1 mix still looked brighter than the 2:1 mix. This is telling me that I'm getting significantly more benefit from the lighter paint color than the addition of metallics. The rustoleum Metallics do help at some point but it appears the point they start providing benefit to brightness is about the same point I start to notice them more than I'd like. I also tried different amounts of poly with the heavier 1:1 mix and I still didn't like the results I was getting.

At this point I'm about out of the Rustoleum metallics I had left over from my SF mixes so I'm going to go back to the drawing board.

Quote:
If you have a good amount of poly already, would it be alright for me to suggest trying a specific FolkArt mix
Thanks for the tip Ftoast. Let me restate your suggestion to be sure I understand. You want me to try simply mixing some FolkArt metallic pearl white (or sterling silver) together with folk art gunmetal gray (I assume until I reach a gray color I'm happy with) then add some poly and water and spray? How much poly would you recommend? One part poly to 3 or 4 parts of paint? Then thin with water to spraying consistency? I may give that a try and see how it goes, thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngm View Post
Thanks for the tip Ftoast. Let me restate your suggestion to be sure I understand. You want me to try simply mixing some FolkArt metallic pearl white (or sterling silver) together with folk art gunmetal gray (I assume until I reach a gray color I'm happy with) then add some poly and water and spray? How much poly would you recommend? One part poly to 3 or 4 parts of paint? Then thin with water to spraying consistency? I may give that a try and see how it goes, thanks!
Exactly. Although it should be pretty safe to go a little darker since the mix can turn out a little lighter once it's done and sprayed on.

I've been mixing the FolkArt and poly 1:1 half & half.
Using less poly than that doesn't seem to increase gain very much at all in this case, and using more than this much makes it take way too many coats to cover a surface with color.

My little Wagner Opti-Stain likes this mix thinned to be 1:1:1, for example; 2oz FolkArt metallic and 2oz matte poly and 2oz water. This is pretty darn thin but the FolkArt and the HomeDepot/Varathane matte poly dry quite fast.
It really helps to keep moving fast enough so each coat is really thin and misty (I try to get them so thin/freckly that it needs 3 or more coats to start filling everything in) and I hit it with a blow-dryer for a few minutes right after spraying each coat to help speed up the drying since you'll still want each coat dry before starting the next one.
It's totally normal with the lighter-colored versions of this mix for the first coats to be practically invisible against a white surface, looking like a fine mist of light grey if you look at it from far too the side..so don't worry if you think your first costs are going on too thin/light. More likely you're doing it perfectly.
Going with a darker-colored mix can make it easier to see progress as you go along.

The smoother your white surface is, the brighter this mix will be.
I've gotten the cleanest/clearest projector-on results when spraying this onto a white surface.. Even before the color is fully filled from enough coats (when the screen still looks kinda freckled) the projected image usually already looks nicely uniform. The fill-in mostly makes sure it doesn't look freckled when the projector is off and the lights are on.

Since each tube of FolkArt is about 2oz, you'll end up with about 6oz of mix or a little more which should cover up to 8ft-square.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #15 of 25 Old 01-09-2017, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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This weekend I tested FToast's Folk art recommendation with some interesting results.

First of all the mix.
2 3/4 Pearl White Folk Art
1/4 Gunmetal Gray Folk Art
3oz Poly
3oz Water

To my delight, unlike any of my other tests, the sample I sprayed actually showed noticeably more on axis gain than the N9 C&S with limited grain and little or no flashlighting. It actually looks great on axis and gave me hope again.

However, a couple of issues.
* This mix isn't able to avoid edge dimming. (If that is even possible with a mix that provides noticeable gain.)
* The resulting gray color is really ugly. Very dirty looking.

Ftoast, Is there a reason you wanted me to mix Pearl White OR Sterling Silver with Gunmetal and NOT Pearl white WITH Sterling Silver? I wonder if the sterling silver and pearl white would produce a more pleasant gray color? The color doesn't appear to effect picture colors on axis. But when viewed off axis all the gain goes away and it appears the mix simply reflects it's actual color which might look better if I produced a more gray color.

Through all these tests I'm beginning to discover that on axis gain is hard. Off axis gain is near impossible. I'm also discovering that a although I can produce a darkish (N7-N8) gray paint that looks good on axis the darker the gray the more it amplifies edge dimming since in all of the tests I've done the metallics don't appear to reflect off axis.

So, it appears my hope to improve dark levels with a gray paint will not only be at the cost of some on axis brightness it appears the greater costof a gray screen with noticeable gain is off axis brightness. This realization may push me towards a much lighter (N9) screen than I was hoping for. But I'll have to think on what I'd rather have. Slightly better blacks or less noticeable edge dimming?

I also took what was left of this test mix and added another 1/4 oz Gunmetal, 1/4oz Poly, 1/4oz water. This resulted in a much darker color though not as dark as SF 3.0. However, with my realizations about dark grays and edge dimming I decided to eliminate that dark of a color from consideration.

Anyway, here are some pictures. This shows the samples I'll be showing in these picutures. Left is C&S, right is the FolkArt mix, back ground screen is Silver Fire:


This is projecting a white screen. shows how much brighter the folk art mix is than C&S on axis:


This is a simple dark levels compare test:


This is a grain test. Left is C&S, Middle is SF, Right is Folk Art.


Here is an edge dimming test. Left is C&S, right is folk art. Notice how the more off axis the more the folk art sample looks like its original color in the first screen shot.




Here are some misc. on axis pictures:



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post #16 of 25 Old 01-09-2017, 07:05 AM
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Sorry I wasn't more clear about that. It's totally fine to use both FolkArt silver metallic and FolkArt Pearl metallic together...I just didn't want you to waste money buying a bunch for this one test in case it didn't improve things.

I've noticed the same where the darker-colored you go, the faster/earlier your image dims off-axis. On the positive side, the lighter-colored versions of this FolkArt mix get a little more on-axis gain as well as a lot more off-axis gain from the lighter color.

I've run into a batch of gunmetal metallic that was noticeably warmer-tinted (a bit brown/red-ish) more than the rest, and pearl metallic (in general) tends to be a touch warm, so I think using more FolkArt silver metallic and less gunmetal should give your screen a color that looks less dirty and more light-silver.

Is this added gain a good thing or would you prefer less on-axis brightness in addition to a lighter color?

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post #17 of 25 Old 01-09-2017, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Is this added gain a good thing or would you prefer less on-axis brightness in addition to a lighter color?
Because my screen is so wide at 2.35:1 and I think I have given up on the idea of an (N7-N8) screen and prioritize off axis viewing over a perceived contrast. What I haven't yet decided is if I want a brighter on axis view at all.

As it is, unless I actually put brighter samples off axis on the silver fire wall I don't really notice the edge dimming that much. So, I imagine a mostly white folk art mix would give me about 1.1-1.2 gain on axis and be no worse than the C&S is off axis. However, like you said the folk art mix does require a very smooth surface. My samples boards were pretty smooth but this mix really brought out the small paint texture on them. If my wall isn't smooth enough then then on axis gain bump might not be worth it.

I have an order of Auto Air Aluminum (AAA) coming. I'll probably wait to make a decision until I see how that metallic works mixed with a white paint at varying amounts. Between then and now I may try a pure pearl white sample of folk art just to make sure there aren't any surprises with that mix.

Anyone have any other ideas?

Thanks everyone for your help. I'll keep the thread updated.
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post #18 of 25 Old 01-09-2017, 10:18 AM
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The Silver Fire is consistently the same in almost every shot and at every angle.

I see that as being a distinct advantage.


BTW...a Macro Shot showing Grain is not really representative of what one would see from a viewing distance...but it can have much to do with the overall performance.

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post #19 of 25 Old 01-09-2017, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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The Silver Fire is consistently the same in almost every shot and at every angle.
That is an interesting point MM. You can see in the 3 pictures with the dogs that on axis the SF screen is very close in brightness to the 2 samples. However, as I move off axis you can see that the C&S sample looks significantly brighter compared to the SF screen above it. Previously I'd look at this and assume this was because of edge dimming of the SF wall. I also have the white screen shot that seems to show some dimming from the background screen, but maybe that dimming is less than what I'm getting from the folk art test?

Today, it is difficult to identify on the SF wall where dimming actually takes place when a movie is playing. I always assumed it was simply telling me that it is difficult to see edge dimming when you don't have something to compare it to. But, maybe you're right. Is the folk art spray dimming at a greater rate than SF?

I'll need to devise some tests. I'd hate to decide to spray folk art assuming the dimming would be minimally noticeable in action like the current SF spray only to discover that wasn't the case.
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post #20 of 25 Old 01-09-2017, 01:00 PM
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The SilverFire is dimming off-axis quite a bit compared to the C&S, but that edge dimming becomes much less obvious when there aren't samples there to directly compare for your eyes.
As long as the edge dimming is gradual enough, it becomes very easy for the eye to ignore...the problem comes when part of the dimming happens fast instead of gradually which causes a noticeable hotspot.
Another problem can be overall extreme dimming, but that's typically not a problem unless the projector throw-ratio is too short (not a problem in your setup).

You could run into a problem with the FolkArt if you make it as dark as the SilverFire while the FolkArt has higher on-axis gain...that would mean there's a steeper falloff from its brighter on-axis image down to it's equally dark off-axis image. Because the FolkArt has a brighter on-axis image, you'll want to keep the mix a little lighter-colored than the SilverFire in order to have a similarly uniform brightness across the screen.
If you make your FolkArt mix a little lighter-colored (or lower the on-axis gain), then its brightness uniformity can be even better than the SilverFire screen was.

When your worried about off-axis dimming and brightness uniformity, sticking toward lighter-colored options helps a LOT.

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post #21 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Another status update.

I finally got around to trying the AAA-F I ordered. I was completely unimpressed. I knew I wanted a lighter screen, so, I decided to simply mix it with a white base to see how things turned out. I chose Sherwin Williams High Reflective White in a Matte finish. Mostly just to try something different. I created mixes of 4:1 (the recommended amount), 2:1, and 1:1. I think the 4:1 looked almost white, the 2:1 looked like maybe an N8.8 and the 1:1 about an N8.3.

No matter how hard I tried I couldn't see any benefit at all from the AAA-F metallic. Even the 1:1 panel looked like I'd simply used a grey paint. On the positive side I couldn't see any grain or edge dimming either.

The new AAA-F formula must not work as well as the old AAA formula and nobody has done enough testing with it to confirm that.

This test was such a failure I didn't even take any pictures.

Next steps. I think I'll try a 2 final tests before I decide:

* A straight AAA spray. Because I have a bunch left over and I'm curious if even pure AAA will show me anything.
* A Pure Folk Art pearl spray. The only sample I ever got a boost in gain over C&S was the Folk art test. I figure, if it is impossible to get a uniform gain perhaps I can at least get some on axis gain and with a mostly white screen not loose too much off axis. Any thoughts on this attempt FToast?

Thanks.
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post #22 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 05:50 PM
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Don't use the FolkArt by itself without the matte poly.. Without the matte poly the FolkArt metallic is quite glossy (even the pearl) and it'll hotspot pretty badly.
The pearl+poly+water will give a warm white/off-white with a lot of brightness on-axis and a brighter image off-axis than any of those grey/silver mixes.

Mixing some of the FolkArt SterlingSilver metallic together with the FolkArt Pearl metallic can help it fight some reflections and ambient light without losing much gain, and as long as you keep it light-grey the off-axis gain won't fall as far. For example, if you mix it to be about the same shade as the C&S the FolkArt mix will only dim about as low as C&S did off-axis. Adding some FolkArt SterlingSilver metallic to the pearl metallic will also help it look a little more silver and less dirty/off-white.

When I talk about adding silver, I still mean to end up with a 1:1:1 ratio of metallic+poly+water.


Thanks for the write-up on your tests with AAA-fine. I suggest trying it 1:1 with poly instead of purely by itself. I saw a picture of it used mixed with paint along with a small blob of it pure and the pure blob looked super shiny. The matte poly does a really nice job of cutting gloss while letting the metallic show through.

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post #23 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Don't use the FolkArt by itself without the matte poly.. Without the matte poly the FolkArt metallic is quite glossy (even the pearl) and it'll hotspot pretty badly.
The pearl+poly+water will give a warm white/off-white with a lot of brightness on-axis and a brighter image off-axis than any of those grey/silver mixes.
This, this is what I meant. Basically the test you had me do before but with no grey/silver. I may try mixing a little sterling silver in since I'll be testing already though I've pretty much given up on anything below N9 as a screen color for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Thanks for the write-up on your tests with AAA-fine. I suggest trying it 1:1 with poly instead of purely by itself. I saw a picture of it used mixed with paint along with a small blob of it pure and the pure blob looked super shiny. The matte poly does a really nice job of cutting gloss while letting the metallic show through.
I wasn't going to do this test as anything serious. Rather, I'm curious what the metallic of it looks like since I cannot see it at all in my other mixes. That said I suppose I can add some poly to it to make it perhaps a more useful test.
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post #24 of 25 Old 02-05-2017, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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I sprayed another set of test panels today. This is what I sprayed:

1. Folk Art Pearl white+poly+water 1:1:1.
2. Added 1/4 oz of Folk Art Sterling Silver to the above.
3. AAA-F + Poly at 1:1.

First interesting thing I noticed. All 3 sprays look the exact same on axis. Samples lose on axis gain about the same degree off axis.. This is making me wonder if all the on axis gain I'm seeing from these Folk Art mixes are coming from the high poly ratio? I suspect I could take black paint, mix it 1:1 with poly and get something that looks the same as a white paint at 1:1 mix on axis.

I didn't take any pictures of sample #3 as it looks the same as the darker folk art mixes I did a few posts earlier.

The background wall of these pictures is just joint compound as I'm in the middle of smoothing the wall some more before my final paint. From left to right: Sherwin Williams URW, C&S, Sample 1, and Sample 2.



Projecting white on axis and off.





As before, projecting on axis looks great with lots of gain. Off axis the gain is lost. Despite that because of the lighter paint color the image appears to stay at a similar brightness level compared to the white and C&S samples.





That said, sometimes off axis I can see some discoloration on the Folk Art samples. I suspect this is because the folk art pearl white isn't very color neutral???





Next steps. I think I'm done testing metallic paints. I think I'm going to choose between a basic white paint and C&S.

Like I mentioned above I find it interesting that all 3 samples look the exact same on axis and lose gain off axis at a similar rate. What are you thoughts on that observation FToast?

I'm might do one more experiment taking a white paint, add some Poly, maybe 2:1 (paintoly), to see if I can get some on axis gain with a paint that will be color neutral off axis.
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post #25 of 25 Old 02-05-2017, 06:49 AM
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I think your pictures all line up with what I'd expect to see on-axis and off-axis.
The pictures make it look like the FolkArt mixes are a little brighter on-axis compared to the C&S and the white, but it looks like the lighter-colored C&S as well as the white hold more of their brightness off-axis while the slightly darker-colored FolkArt mixes naturally lose gain off-axis (if they didn't lose gain off-axis, they would look like white screens instead of grey or off-white).

The discoloration on the Pearl sample is probably from the lack of neutrality, but you might want to try holding at an angle under the light (angled to reflect the light away from you rather than toward you) to see if the sample looks speckled..I've noticed the sprayed mixes can turn out speckled off-axis if there isn't enough paint to fully fill-in the panel with color while the on-axis image still looks filled and clear.

When I tested a 1:1:1 mix of gloss black+poly+water, the gain was much lower than the FolkArt metallic 1:1:1 panels, but don't let stop you from testing it as long as you don't mind doing it..more testers mean more chances to prove or disprove things.

Would you mind taking a couple pictures showing your AAA+poly panel on-axis and off-axis next to another panel or two (I don't have any preferences which it's showed next to as long as you mention which is which)?
Thanks either way for doing all this and taking so many pictures to go along with it.

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