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post #1 of 62 Old 05-28-2017, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Low gain removable screen options?

I have a 0.9 Scorpion mix on a 112" wall which was used for my JVC x30, which just died on me. I have just purchased an Epson 5020UB to replace it, and I want to explore the option of a lower gain screen/wall as we usually have the lights on a bit (dark man cave room, recessed lights) I'm thinking the Epson has at least double the lumens of the JVC in Living Room mode so I'm hoping I can use 0.5 to 0.7 gain for when the lights are on a little. I can either paint my existing wall, or explore some removable option and keep my 0.9 wall as well? Spandex? Other materials? I'll probably just paint my wall unless there an easy way to add or remove a layer or screen on top of it
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post #2 of 62 Old 05-28-2017, 11:23 AM
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Since you didn't mention it I'll just say that the first thing to do is to try your new projector on your old screen to see how bright it actually is rather than relying on published projector lumens to make the decision on what gain would be most appropriate.

I can tell you from my research that it's very difficult to find any dedicated screen material with a lower gain than 0.8. The lowest I've found is 0.6 for Da-Lite's HD Progressive 0.6 and Draper's Grey XH600V. You can check them out but as I recall they are on the pricey side. Stewart Filmscreen has a 0.7 gain screen material called GrayMatte 70, but of course Stewart is usually the most expensive as it's considered the industry standard for quality. I'm not familiar with various DIY fabrics with different gains but I'm sure others will have suggestions to make.

Obviously with paint you can custom mix any gain level you want, so paint is by far the most flexible and least expensive option. Painted screens aren't for everyone, but since you've already done one you are certainly a good candidate to do it again.
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post #3 of 62 Old 05-28-2017, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes I will certainly try it out first, but I fully expect it will be bright enough for lower gain. ... yeah I'm expecting a paint based solution....just a matter of what mix.......
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post #4 of 62 Old 05-28-2017, 11:59 PM
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I believe matte-white milliskin spandex as a single layer or layered over black spandex is either 0.5gain or 0.6gain....I can't remember off hand right now.

The paint color "Veil" or "OONN 53/000" or "Pebble Grey" is just under 0.55gain if you get a flat/matte finish. Glidden and ColorPlace are good brands for neutral grey shades.

I think the Epson LivingRoom preset is around 1500lm at full lamp or around 1200lm using EcoLamp. It also dims quite a lot if you need it zoomed small/far and some folks don't like how loud the fan runs in full lamp mode..so it might be safer to assume ~1200lm.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #5 of 62 Old 05-29-2017, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree that I'll probably prefer ECO as I once demo'd the 5025ub and the full power fan was pretty loud.... I also the auto iris chatter being pretty loud on the 5025ub, but I will either deal with it, or maybe consider a hushbox for both the fan noise and iris noise? Either way, I got a great deal on the 5020 so l'll live with it
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post #6 of 62 Old 05-29-2017, 09:48 AM
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Your best and easiest route to a really nice screen that is both "Paint Free" and easily removable would be a Spandex, Milliskin "White over Black". Now be advised, that any "Removable" screen must hang on something, so dependent upon your Ceiling situation, a true "Hanging on Wire" might be best. Simple Eye Hooks up top, (anchored in using the following Combo

https://www.amazon.com/Toggler-Snapt...dp/B005C4YE4M/

Along with this:

With these on Top of the Frame:

These "2 Hole" Hangers support 40 lbs each so they are worthy of the task. Just position them sideways on the top of the Frame, with the Loop centered on the Frame so that the Frame will hang straight.

I'm suggesting "Hanging" from the Ceiling, because any wall-oriented method would involve making some type of Hole within an area you wish to preserve as a Screen. The Holes up top can be finished out much easier than any hole in your "Screen Wall".

Lastly, no Solid Screen material on a Frame will be as lightweight as Spandex on a 1x3 Frame:

Below is a diagram of a 120" diagonal "Zeo Edge" 1 x 3 Frame. The outside perimeter of the frame has the 1x3s standing "On Edge" and the Central Vertical inside supports are 1x4s set sideways and flush the rear edge of the Frame. (...locate the Screen Hanging Loops on top directly over the outside Vertical Braces...)




Good luck....
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post #7 of 62 Old 05-30-2017, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Your best and easiest route to a really nice screen that is both "Paint Free" and easily removable would be a Spandex, Milliskin "White over Black". Now be advised, that any "Removable" screen must hang on something, so dependent upon your Ceiling situation, a true "Hanging on Wire" might be best. Simple Eye Hooks up top, (anchored in using the following Combo

https://www.amazon.com/Toggler-Snapt...dp/B005C4YE4M/

Along with this:

With these on Top of the Frame:

These "2 Hole" Hangers support 40 lbs each so they are worthy of the task. Just position them sideways on the top of the Frame, with the Loop centered on the Frame so that the Frame will hang straight.

I'm suggesting "Hanging" from the Ceiling, because any wall-oriented method would involve making some type of Hole within an area you wish to preserve as a Screen. The Holes up top can be finished out much easier than any hole in your "Screen Wall".

Lastly, no Solid Screen material on a Frame will be as lightweight as Spandex on a 1x3 Frame:

Below is a diagram of a 120" diagonal "Zeo Edge" 1 x 3 Frame. The outside perimeter of the frame has the 1x3s standing "On Edge" and the Central Vertical inside supports are 1x4s set sideways and flush the rear edge of the Frame. (...locate the Screen Hanging Loops on top directly over the outside Vertical Braces...)




Good luck....
Thanks so much. I'll probably end up with a paint-based solution after demo'ing the projector and according for which picture mode and bulb power mode I intend on using both both lights on/off, and accounting for some bulb dimming. I'm hopeful I can lower the gain from my current 0.9 to 0.6 or so to allow for 2-3 60W recessed lights to be on while viewing (all at or behind the viewer)....
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post #8 of 62 Old 05-30-2017, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post
Thanks so much. I'll probably end up with a paint-based solution after demo'ing the projector and according for which picture mode and bulb power mode I intend on using both both lights on/off, and accounting for some bulb dimming. I'm hopeful I can lower the gain from my current 0.9 to 0.6 or so to allow for 2-3 60W recessed lights to be on while viewing (all at or behind the viewer)....

Well, aside from my own 120" diagonal recommendation, I don't see anything listed as far as how big your screen will be nor a throw distance stated.

Taking my figures aside, and allowing for the "center Throw distance (16') a 0.6 gain screen will only put out 10 foot lambert....on Normal. On Eco your brightness will fall precipitously.(6-7 Fls max.) Now while either o both might give you something akin to an acceptable image quality in total darkness, Almost any amount of low ambient light will have a higher candle power of illumination than does the projected / reflected light off the screen. Now if you could jam the PJ up closer to 12'-3" Throw, then you'd stand a chance, (10-12 fl)

So yeah...at .6 gain your image will be dull and washed out in even low ambient light. In the dark, unless a short throw distance is observed, it's not going to have much "pop & sizzle" either.

You should rethink your situation...and choose you paint application accordingly. Better to start out with a Paint that will maintain / even improve Blacks and Gray Scale, and preserve gain, then do your "in PJ" adjustments and calibrations to stopper down light output to your liking.

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post #9 of 62 Old 05-30-2017, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Well, aside from my own 120" diagonal recommendation, I don't see anything listed as far as how big your screen will be nor a throw distance stated.

Taking my figures aside, and allowing for the "center Throw distance (16') a 0.6 gain screen will only put out 10 foot lambert....on Normal. On Eco your brightness will fall precipitously.(6-7 Fls max.) Now while either o both might give you something akin to an acceptable image quality in total darkness, Almost any amount of low ambient light will have a higher candle power of illumination than does the projected / reflected light off the screen. Now if you could jam the PJ up closer to 12'-3" Throw, then you'd stand a chance, (10-12 fl)

So yeah...at .6 gain your image will be dull and washed out in even low ambient light. In the dark, unless a short throw distance is observed, it's not going to have much "pop & sizzle" either.

You should rethink your situation...and choose you paint application accordingly. Better to start out with a Paint that will maintain / even improve Blacks and Gray Scale, and preserve gain, then do your "in PJ" adjustments and calibrations to stopper down light output to your liking.
Here are some more data points

Screen/Wall size - 112" diagonal
Throw distance - 12.5'... I could move it one more stud to 11', which would be *right on the edge* of the 5020UB's limits, but give it the max brightness. Either way, i will have it at or very close to max brightness. So if I use Projector Central mid-zoom numbers (to allow for aging), I get the following (Normal / Eco)

Dynamic - 1890 lumens / 1323
Living Room - 1473 lumens / 1030
Cine/Nat/ThX - 804 lumens / 562

Based on these, I think it comes down to using 0.6 gain screen with Living Room vs. using a 0.9/1.0 gain screen in Cinema....
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post #10 of 62 Old 05-30-2017, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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PS... I *hate* any screen shimmering/grain/pebbling, etc... so I cannot get very aggressive with metallic elements..... the Scopion mix has very little and I don't notice any shimmering which is nice... so there is a limitation there for me...
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post #11 of 62 Old 05-30-2017, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post
Here are some more data points

Screen/Wall size - 112" diagonal
Throw distance - 12.5'... I could move it one more stud to 11', which would be *right on the edge* of the 5020UB's limits, but give it the max brightness. Either way, i will have it at or very close to max brightness. So if I use Projector Central mid-zoom numbers (to allow for aging), I get the following (Normal / Eco)

Dynamic - 1890 lumens / 1323
Living Room - 1473 lumens / 1030
Cine/Nat/ThX - 804 lumens / 562

Based on these, I think it comes down to using 0.6 gain screen with Living Room vs. using a 0.9/1.0 gain screen in Cinema....
Well as I said, if the ambient light in the living room is of a higher level of foot candles in proportion to the foot lambert of brightness of reflected projected light...especially to digital Blacks, the end results will be significantly noticeable loss of image quality.

Considering the current Scorpion (N)9 surface you have, one thing you've been lacking there are really satisfying blacks. And it's a primary reasoning behind why you know you'd need something to help with image quality in Ambient.

Well I can say with conviction that Lumen output + Screen Gain is what gives one great performance in ambient light. And since "Gain w/o Gray" won't work, "Gain w/Gray certainly will.

But by "Gain"....that means a mix that a .9 - 1.1 Gain that "can significantly" enhance Blacks, keep whites and colors vibrant, and not have any degree of Graininess....well, the stronger the foot lambert of reflected light off the screen is, the more resistant every aspect of the Image will be.

You cannot conjure up, or create a brighter image if the screen's gain (lack thereof) has already suppressed reflection.

For the ridiculous times when light exceeds common sense, all the same applies. Now if your lighting in "Living Room Situations" is even "moderate, non directed" Ambient light needs that Lumen horse power.

So that brings up the Epson. Your putting too much dependence on how much brighter you think the 5020 is than the older JVC. Certainly it's brighter....but it has nowhere near the depth of projected Black levels of the JVC. The difference, seemingly or otherwise...between the Blackest black and the Whitest white is what creates Image Quality in ambient light. And if Blacks start out "less black", they will deteriorate all the more quickly than projected Black that is projected....blacker.

I just finished a 157" 2.39:1 "On a fully painted 18' x 11' "Wall"...dedicated Theater, JVC x970r. Also two other Theaters with x570r s. And a last one with a x770r

Each one a painted wall, each one a Silver Fire 1.0 (Black Flame N/C actually) with 10 oz Matte White added (20 oz total). Those Theaters certainly are very effectively light controlled, but the ability to turn up the Cans is a plus they neither expected nor felt necessary. But now that such is in hand...they all are even more happy.

But on to Image Quality. Those JVC owners w/LyCos tech certainly would not tolerate any "speckles or grain". They also determined, to a man, that if ambient light watching was going to happen, they didn't want any serious decrease in overall image quality...and absolutely as little hit on those excellent JVC Blacks. And something important to all of them...enhanced Image Quality in 3D modes.

All those Screens are at the 1.1 gain level. And while they look miraculous, they too can only work their miracles if given the right balance of Depth of Gray + Gain

There really is no question why the highest performing ALR (resistant & rejection) applications, DIY & Mfg, all have both Gain and Black Level Enhancement properties. Some more, some less...some completely over the top. But the common denominator is to "combat" ambient light, so one must know what kind of application will deliver Black & Gray Scale image quality and brilliant Colors while resisting ambient light levels present.

That is simply not done by turning down reflected image brightness. ANY SCREEN THAT IS .4/+ UNDER UNITY GAIN WILL SUPRESS TOO MUCH LIGHT.

All said, now knowing your screen size / throw, the 5020 should show a bright image.....on Standard. When ambient light is truly low, Eco should be fine. So if you can match up the correct Shade of Gray with something close to +/- 1.0gain, you'll be there. And in truth, the right paint choice would let you just redo the wall, (squash that Bug ) and use one screen shooting in 2 different Light Output modes. You can calibrate each Mode so really, that's where you should go. You'll find the cost of building a Frame alone is something that offsets specialized Pain costs.

The only time when screen attenuation alone works, in the .5 - .6 gain area, is when a truly high lumen level of incoming projected light can actually "drive through the Gray" and produce bight colors, and whites that can be perceived as whites. (they are really a light Gray...but so bright as to appear white...)
Under those conditions, the quality of the projected Blacks will rest squarely on the Projector's ability. The Screen will enhance whatever it receives, but it can only do so much with whatever it does receive.

So again, my advice is to retain as much gain as possible. There are paint mixes that are more capable than the Scorpion, BW, C&S Ultra....right here, but you do have to choose & use the best one suited for your situation. Or be steered to it and run with that selection.

But hey...a White over Black Spandex Screen still seems a best choice for you IMO. Ir even Light Silver over Black. There would be NO screen artifacts, and as stated earlier, you'd still have that "bug on you wall" to watch.

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post #12 of 62 Old 05-30-2017, 09:15 PM
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A 120" 0.5gain screen needs almost 1400lm to hit 16ftL of brightness...a 0.6gain surface needs 1150lm to reach 16ftL, and a 0.7gain surface would only need about 1000lm for that same 16ftL.
When the room is dark/lights-out, 12ftL-14ftL will look more like a standard commercial theatre.

Because you mentioned how the light-sources will be coming from the same direction as the projector along with searching for that brighter PJ plus low-gain, it sounds like you already understand what boosting gain will do with ambient-light that's hitting the screen from the same direction as the projector.

Are there any more tricks you can use to keep the lights away from the screen?
Small shields/shrouds on the light cans between the bulbs and the screen, narrower/spot bulbs in the cans, dimmer switch for the theater lights (or dimmer cord for lamps) to balance the amount of light you need VS how much hits the screen, things like that (if you haven't already)?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #13 of 62 Old 05-31-2017, 01:41 AM
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Non direct ambient light coming from behind the PJ's location still must be dealt with and without ample lumen, turning down the reflective quotient of a screen to such low levels is not going to do any service to image quality.

I clearly stated that the level of light present will have everything to do with what will, and will not work. Obviously turning down, or re-plotting the type of light present by using Shields or Spots can be an answer, but only if Cans are the primary source of light.

I've been dealing with ambient light situations for many years, and what some say doesn't work has been shown to work when the right combination of existing light, screen size and build , PJ lumen output and Contrast specs + Throw are all as balanced as possible. Introducing adverse lighting conditions to any degree can't be good, but reducing screen light output certainly isn't a valid response.

We are NOT talking about Retro-Reflective "light colored"screens such as a Dalite HP, or other similar surfaces. By the very suggestions already made, it's obvious that going dark seems to be an accepted route. But going dark without Gain is a path that leads to poorer performance than need to be achieved.

Paint that goes on in enough medium Gray translucent layers to create refraction along with gain is the best solution.
I've shown that to be the case. Ignoring all that and focusing on a narrow, dark path is not the answer.

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It's well proven by simple math and real world examples that a <1.0 gain neutral matte grey screen surface can reduce the effect of ambient light on a projected image as long as the projector can produce sufficient additional lumens to properly illuminate the darker screen surface to the same level as a 1.0 gain neutral matte white screen surface.

A simple example would be using a projector throwing 500 lumens on a 1.0 gain matte white screen in the presence of 50 lumens of ambient light. The 1.0 gain screen will reflect back to your eyes a 500 lumen image compromised by 50 lumens of ambient light, so the ratio of projector lumens to ambient light lumens is 500:50 or 10:1.

Now replace the 1.0 gain white screen with a 0.5 gain matte grey screen and increase projector lumens to 1,000. The 0.5 gain means the screen will reflect half of those 1,000 image lumens back to your eyes or 500 lumens -- exactly the same as the 1.0 gain white screen with 500 lumen projector. However, the 0.5 gain screen will also only reflect half of the 50 ambient light lumens or 25 lumens. So now the ratio of image lumens to ambient light lumens is 500:25 or 20:1 and the ambient light screen washout factor is cut in half.

The benefit of using a matte grey screen over non-lambertian solutions is that there is no risk of a negative effect on the viewing cone or introduction of artifacts.
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
The benefit of using a matte grey screen over non-lambertian solutions is that there is no risk of a negative effect on the viewing cone or introduction of artifacts.
Dave,
That was a well presented position that goes far to validate the idea that maintaining gain while using a darker base is the most effective route to take. Second is dramatically increasing lumen s delivered to a lower (<.8) gain surface to compensate for foot lambert losses.

But modest use of gain over the Lambertian standard, when combined with a Neutral Gray base has all the more performance potential to maintain image quality under adverse conditions.

And again...a Translucent surface with layered depth, that has Metallic particles dispersed and arrayed in many various direction is the solution to warding off noticeable loss in viewing cone, as well as working to prevent limitations as far as PJ positioning.

To achieve all that isn't as easy as rolling on or spraying a simple 1or 2 part Paint, nor is it as inexpensive. But very, very few things that are truly worthy of note come with every aspect in their creation being ideally suited to the cheapskates and laggards of the DIY world.

.......and you know who you are...don't try to hide it....just try you best to change!

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post #16 of 62 Old 05-31-2017, 09:36 AM
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Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
But modest use of gain over the Lambertian standard, when combined with a Neutral Gray base has all the more performance potential to maintain image quality under adverse conditions.
Spoiler!
Yes, but only if it avoid bothersome visible artifacts for the viewer and only if a significant part of the washout is happening from a light-source/reflection which isn't coming from a similar direction as the projector.

Hit that gain-boosted screen with a problematic light/reflection that's coming from a position similar to the projector and the gain will increase that washout about as much as it's increasing the projector's brightness.
Spoiler!

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #17 of 62 Old 05-31-2017, 09:59 AM
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Ftoast,

Your stating the obvious, and ignoring the obvious as well.

Granularity Artifacts can be reduced to being inconsequential, so much so that the wall's own properties stand to create the issues when a High Contrast paint is used...even a Matte Gray.

As for the Ambient light issue, I mean really.....if there is a high enough level of ambient (not directed) light that is intense enough to be even 25% comparative to the PJ's output and the Screens Foot Lambert, and therein create an intractable issue, then the whole exercise it moot unless pains are taken to alleviate such "high level" AL intrusion.

And if the AL intrusion isn't all that high, your statement / argument is even more moot. At this point...all it amounts to being is just another non-applicable counterpoint until it can be adjudged just how high the ambient light levels really is / will be.

In any case, serving up the OP with a Paint application that will amount to being a dull surface with no dynamics...that will be a real shame.

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post #18 of 62 Old 05-31-2017, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Ftoast,

Your stating the obvious, and ignoring the obvious as well.

Granularity Artifacts can be reduced to being inconsequential, so much so that the wall's own properties stand to create the issues when a High Contrast paint is used...even a Matte Gray.

As for the Ambient light issue, I mean really.....if there is a high enough level of ambient (not directed) light that is intense enough to be even 25% comparative to the PJ's output and the Screens Foot Lambert, and therein create an intractable issue, then the whole exercise it moot unless pains are taken to alleviate such "high level" AL intrusion.

And if the AL intrusion isn't all that high, your statement / argument is even more moot. At this point...all it amounts to being is just another non-applicable counterpoint until it can be adjudged just how high the ambient light levels really is / will be.

In any case, serving up the OP with a Paint application that will amount to being a dull surface with no dynamics...that will be a real shame.
Some more data points:

1) My theatre room is 19.5' by 11', so very long and narrow; point being that the viewing cone does not have to be very wide
2) The lights in the cans cannot be changed, ... I tried more directional lights and my viewing mates complained about being 'in a spotlight'. It's 2 or maybe 3 60W bulbs, deeply recessed and pointed straight down. The lights are 11' and 15' away from the 'screen' and are on both sides left and right of the Projector. Usually it's only 2 lights when we are watching non-sports, 3-4 lights when watching sports, etc.
3) I'm *very* sensitive to any shimmering/grain on the screen. The current paint on my wall is very good in that regard
4) As I have mentioned to MM in the past, I CANNOT spray down there.... I can roll only.

As for the 5020UB, I did demo the 5025UB a few years ago, so I have a decent recollection of the light power I'm getting, and I expect I'm going to want a darker shade than my current wall, regardless of what gain I can acheive between .5 and 1.2, etc.

THANKS
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post #19 of 62 Old 05-31-2017, 12:08 PM
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So it would seem that the Cans are not a really big issues, especially if they are on any sort of Dimmer.

I do indeed have a mix in mind, a derivative of the RS-MaxxMudd LL, Using Pearlescent but omitting the use of Silver Metallic, and letting a Base that is Tinted to a N7 Gray put the "dark" to the Mix. Then the mix is slightly lightened with a pure White Flat Enamel. The latter serving to also mute any degree of Sparklies.

Neither Sheen nor Graininess will be seen, and this Mix will indeed be Roll-able, and come in at .9 to 1.0 gain and be squarely with the N8 range. It's visual appearance will be 3x+ darker than Scorpion.

As I see it going, the only real logistic issue is acquiring a serviceable White Pearlescent.

Specific details to follow soon, but I'm in the latter stages of re-Flooring a large 3-level Deck outside my Barn-home and I'm determined to finish it...today!

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So it would seem that the Cans are not a really big issues, especially if they are on any sort of Dimmer.

I do indeed have a mix in mind, a derivative of the RS-MaxxMudd LL, Using Pearlescent but omitting the use of Silver Metallic, and letting a Base that is Tinted to a N7 Gray put the "dark" to the Mix. Then the mix is slightly lightened with a pure White Flat Enamel. The latter serving to also mute any degree of Sparklies.

Neither Sheen nor Graininess will be seen, and this Mix will indeed be Roll-able, and come in at .9 to 1.0 gain and be squarely with the N8 range. It's visual appearance will be 3x+ darker than Scorpion.

As I see it going, the only real logistic issue is acquiring a serviceable White Pearlescent.

Specific details to follow soon, but I'm in the latter stages of re-Flooring a large 3-level Deck outside my Barn-home and I'm determined to finish it...today!
Thanks so much and Good luck!
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post #21 of 62 Old 05-31-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
So it would seem that the Cans are not a really big issues, especially if they are on any sort of Dimmer.

I do indeed have a mix in mind, a derivative of the RS-MaxxMudd LL, Using Pearlescent but omitting the use of Silver Metallic, and letting a Base that is Tinted to a N7 Gray put the "dark" to the Mix. Then the mix is slightly lightened with a pure White Flat Enamel. The latter serving to also mute any degree of Sparklies.

Neither Sheen nor Graininess will be seen, and this Mix will indeed be Roll-able, and come in at .9 to 1.0 gain and be squarely with the N8 range. It's visual appearance will be 3x+ darker than Scorpion.

As I see it going, the only real logistic issue is acquiring a serviceable White Pearlescent.

Specific details to follow soon, but I'm in the latter stages of re-Flooring a large 3-level Deck outside my Barn-home and I'm determined to finish it...today!
Is there any particular reason you'd choose to mix an N7 matte-grey and an N10 matte-white together instead of simply using a roughly equal overall amount of an ~N8 matte-grey in the first place to mix with the Pearl metallic and poly?

I suppose, because even the fairly concentrated Rustoleum Pearl would need to be used at a ratio of 2:1 or greater to reach ~0.9-1.0gain, you could simply rely on the Pearl to slightly lighten a matte-grey that's a half shade darker than the target.
Buying two separate shades of white/grey to make a slightly lighter shade of grey sounds needlessly expensive and redundant.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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There's no question that a neutral matte grey screen is the simplest, least expensive option with the best odds of avoiding artifacts. However, the degree of negative gain that can work with a neutral matte grey screen surface is really dependent on how many lumens the projector can produce. If the ambient light is strong enough to require a serious amount of negative gain and the projector is not up to producing that many lumens then a more expensive, more difficult to properly produce layered screen with negative gain dark base and higher gain layers makes more sense even though the odds are higher that artifacts will become visible to at least some viewers.

Each case is a little different and needs to be taken on its own merits. It's difficult to assess exactly what's needed for @ohcello without being able to actually see and measure his environment. For example, with recessed can lights pointing straight down the issue is not with direct light from the cans hitting the screen but reflected light. Imagine if the can lights were shining down on a white sofa. It would light up brightly and that reflected light would wash out the screen image. On the other hand if everything under the can lights is dark colored there would be little light reflected onto the screen.

My wife uses a small LED lamp to check her knitting while watching our front projection setup. One night she wore a pure white turtleneck that the little LED lamp lit up like a searchlight and I could see that the black levels on our screen were slightly washed out. I paused the movie and asked her to change to a dark top. When she did there was a visible improvement in black levels. So for anyone at all picky about black levels even the smallest things can make a difference.
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There's no question that a neutral matte grey screen is the simplest, least expensive option with the best odds of avoiding artifacts. However, the degree of negative gain that can work with a neutral matte grey screen surface is really dependent on how many lumens the projector can produce. If the ambient light is strong enough to require a serious amount of negative gain and the projector is not up to producing that many lumens then a more expensive, more difficult to properly produce layered screen with negative gain dark base and higher gain layers makes more sense even though the odds are higher that artifacts will become visible to at least some viewers.

Each case is a little different and needs to be taken on its own merits. It's difficult to assess exactly what's needed for @ohcello without being able to actually see and measure his environment. For example, with recessed can lights pointing straight down the issue is not with direct light from the cans hitting the screen but reflected light. Imagine if the can lights were shining down on a white sofa. It would light up brightly and that reflected light would wash out the screen image. On the other hand if everything under the can lights is dark colored there would be little light reflected onto the screen.

My wife uses a small LED lamp to check her knitting while watching our front projection setup. One night she wore a pure white turtleneck that the little LED lamp lit up like a searchlight and I could see that the black levels on our screen were slightly washed out. I paused the movie and asked her to change to a dark top. When she did there was a visible improvement in black levels. So for anyone at all picky about black levels even the smallest things can make a difference.
Some more info:

The 19.5 x 11' room is all dark, including the carpet, furniture, walls, ceiling. We tried small spotlights... they were hated by my viewing mates so the 60W ceiling lights went back up. The 'default' configuration is one 60W recessed light about 11' from the screen to the right of center, and another 60W recessed light about 16' from the screen to the left of center. Both lights are on fully, not dimmed, but pushed up way in the can. The Projector will either be ceiling mounted 12.5' from the screen on ECO, or shelf mounted 18.5' from the back of the room (probably NOT on ECO ; ).... testing for brightness, fan and iris noise will determine which I choose. I could also move the mount another stub closer to get the max power out of the Epson at 11', but then it would be *right* over my head.

My current 112" wall is painted with Scorpion and is about .9 gain, my JVC X30 (before it died) with an old bulb had to be on high lamp with the lights completely off to have a good image. With my 2 60W bulbs on, it was pretty much washed out to the point of being very annoying.

MMan is going to recommend to me a MaxxMudd mix soon, which I might try. My plan is basically go with a significantly darker shade of gray, even if the gain is .5 to .7x, and if I can add back some gain through the magic you kind folks without adding any annoying artifacts, great!. If not, I’ll use Living Room mode with the lower gain and that will be that.

Last edited by ohcello; 06-01-2017 at 11:06 AM.
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post #24 of 62 Old 06-01-2017, 11:31 AM
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Mounting the projector closer to the screen will give you more flexibility for going brighter as projectors pass fewer lumens through the lens when mounted further away and zoomed to use only part of the lens. Maximum lumens to the screen are produced when the full lens is used to pass light as it is when placed as close to the screen as possible while still filling the screen image area. When projectorreviews.com tested a 5020UB they made the following comments about image brightness at various lens zoom settings:

Quote:
Effect of zoom on lumen output (Dynamic mode):

In all the talk above about lumens, remember that how you place your projector has a lot of impact on brightness. This Epson with its wide range zoom, loses brightness the further back you place it from your screen.

Put that projector as close to the screen as you can, and you’ve got over 2100 lumens to work with, but lose just over 10% by moving back to the mid-range of the zoom, and for those of you putting the projector on a shelf at the far end of the range, you get about 30 percent less. This is typical of projectors that have zoom lenses with tons of range (2:1 or greater).
So the maximum ~2,100 lumens measured in Dynamic mode when closest to the screen is reduced to ~1,890 lumens at mid-zoom and to ~1,470 lumens when furthest from the screen.
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Mounting the projector closer to the screen will give you more flexibility for going brighter as projectors pass fewer lumens through the lens when mounted further away and zoomed to use only part of the lens. Maximum lumens to the screen are produced when the full lens is used to pass light as it is when placed as close to the screen as possible while still filling the screen image area. When projectorreviews.com tested a 5020UB they made the following comments about image brightness at various lens zoom settings:

So the maximum ~2,100 lumens measured in Dynamic mode when closest to the screen is reduced to ~1,890 lumens at mid-zoom and to ~1,470 lumens when furthest from the screen.
Yep, the only reason I would shelf mount it was to get the iris noise away from me... but we'll have to see how that all plays out... if I can end up with a .9 to 1.0 gain screen , perhaps I can still mount it 19.5' away with enough brightness......
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... but we'll have to see how that all plays out...
You are really being smart to brainstorm various options up front but wait until seeing what you've got before pulling the trigger on everything. Front projection is full of variables and options with different tradeoffs, so it often takes some experimentation to sort out which tradeoffs are most acceptable to us.
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The 'default' configuration is one 60W recessed light about 11' from the screen to the right of center, and another 60W recessed light about 16' from the screen to the left of center. Both lights are on fully, not dimmed, but pushed up way in the can.
Do you have a dimmer switch but prefer the lights at full power, or do you not currently have a dimmer?
Spoiler!

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Do you have a dimmer switch but prefer the lights at full power, or do you not currently have a dimmer?
Spoiler!
I do have a dimmer, but my mates want to lights on... those 2 lights.... when I try and dim it, they notice.... trust me, the 2 bulbs on full power IS the de facto setting for 90% of all the viewing I do ... and I don't think that will change much. Every once in a while there will be a show or movie that nobody else wants to watch and I'll get to turn the lights off : )

This is one of the reasons why I don't think I'll miss the JVC X30 *that* much as most of the time that 'next level' contrast was not taken advantage of....

the other factor is that my mates have rainbow-itis... big time... so pretty much NO DLP.... that leaves... sony, JVC, or LCD..with Panny and Epson having the best models.... well... I looked for an AE7000 or AE8000 with a warranty and I found one for two grand..... so....I just got the 5020UB for just under a grade factory refurb, and there is no equivalent deal for a Sony or JVC model that would be bright enough for my default settings.... so that leaves Epson.

It all comes down to the Screen Door Effect... .I noticed it with the 5025UB 2 years ago... but I didn't try 1) messing with slight defocus 2) messing with light de-convergence 3) moving from 11' to maybe 12 or 13' distance.... so we'll see if I can get it to a point where i can live with it. I also wear my glasses when watching (I have 20/25 vision) so maybe watching without the glasses might help as well.

As for the Iris noise... I'll just turn it off if it gets to me too much.... the 5020UB still has pretty good native contrast without it.... equivalent to the Sony's (some say, some have measured, etc).... it's still better than most others I could get for the price I paid.

Bottom line is I wanted more lumens and decent black levels for a room that 90% of the time has some lights on...

Projector gets here tomorrow!
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post #29 of 62 Old 06-02-2017, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
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Bottom line is I wanted more lumens and decent black levels for a room that 90% of the time has some lights on...

Projector gets here tomorrow!
And that will be paramount in the determination of exactly how much ALR enhancement will be needed, and will govern my own final mix recommendation. Most important will be how the increase in lumen output, as relates to projected Black levels, will make whatever mix adjustments necessary. .........and as warned, this must be accomplished without the introduction of granularity / screen introduced artifacts. (...been there, done that...so no worries! )

I have long stated that the designed premise behind SF / BF /RS-MM was that is was their adaptability to various situations, especially SF/BF... is what makes them unique and so multi-purpose.

Particular aspects, such as the inclusion of Polyurethane, using a Multi-level approach, and the adjust-ability of Metallic content and the shade of Gray, all make such flexibility (...and performance...) are the things of importance when considering just what needs to be done to achieve any particular goal.

In ochello's case, this will call for a hearkening back to some of the same methods employed to achieve the above without spraying. The challenge being to preserve gain (...along with respectable Whites and brilliant Colors...) while combating ambient light to the best possible level the projector of choice can muster. And THAT will indeed be wholly dependent upon whatever boost the Screen surface itself can provide.

I for one actually welcome this challenge....when spraying is out of the question, yet performance that lies above what is normally though possible using a roller

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post #30 of 62 Old 06-02-2017, 07:37 AM
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It's well proven by simple math and real world examples that a <1.0 gain neutral matte grey screen surface can reduce the effect of ambient light on a projected image as long as the projector can produce sufficient additional lumens to properly illuminate the darker screen surface to the same level as a 1.0 gain neutral matte white screen surface.

A simple example would be using a projector throwing 500 lumens on a 1.0 gain matte white screen in the presence of 50 lumens of ambient light. The 1.0 gain screen will reflect back to your eyes a 500 lumen image compromised by 50 lumens of ambient light, so the ratio of projector lumens to ambient light lumens is 500:50 or 10:1.

Now replace the 1.0 gain white screen with a 0.5 gain matte grey screen and increase projector lumens to 1,000. The 0.5 gain means the screen will reflect half of those 1,000 image lumens back to your eyes or 500 lumens -- exactly the same as the 1.0 gain white screen with 500 lumen projector. However, the 0.5 gain screen will also only reflect half of the 50 ambient light lumens or 25 lumens. So now the ratio of image lumens to ambient light lumens is 500:25 or 20:1 and the ambient light screen washout factor is cut in half.

The benefit of using a matte grey screen over non-lambertian solutions is that there is no risk of a negative effect on the viewing cone or introduction of artifacts.
Most rules of mathematics and science don’t apply and have little use in the DIY screen forum. There are way too many unknown things that are well known that alter realities once you enter the DIY zone.

For instance it is a well-known fact in the DIY community that a proper screen paint in any given room can deepen blacks and at the same time brighten whites. This is possible because some interactions of elements in the paint are designed to react differently with low level light than with high level light output. It has been proven many times in many tests regardless if it goes against all science.

It is also possible to greatly increase the gain of a surface and at the same time maintain a full wide viewing cone without any loss in brightness off axis. I can show you hundreds of examples here of that even though conventional science and math says that can’t be.

In the DIY zone all things are possible.

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