110" satin white diy screen but need improve - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johny1989 View Post
has anyone tried to apply any of these mixes on a black surface (preferably matte).
Yes.....the result is gross attenuation. Unless one applies the surface paint in several heavy layers to achieve a fully opaque surface...and the the underlying surface can be purple & white polka dot for all it matters. What does matter is that such surfaces tend to absorb and attenuate light on their own.

In comparison, an ultra reflective base (mirror - Mylar) needs just the right amount of top coat to allow just the right amount light through so once attenuated, it returns the slightly augment the surface's reflection.

Balance, balance, balance....a sensible mantra to adhere to.

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post #152 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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sir i really like your posts on the thread, you have helped tremendously in coordinating a superb result,
please tell me what you think on painting the mix on a black surface. yes the pearl i got was breathable size
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan56200490
Spoiler!


That seems more likely...something between 5-10 microns. Flour is approx 5-10 microns as well. Something to consider....Mica sizes as small as .5 microns are available....and the best of the best of optically pure Glass Beads are also 95%+ perfectly round......whereas many if not most are less than 60-70%, an important factor when such are being used in a single layer.

A Mica particle 5 microns small would tend to cake because they are not round, but chip / flake-like in shape.

Interference Powders average 5 microns. They are noted for their uniformity....and that last aspect is critical in how well they perform as far as visible texture and the tendency to sparkle. Another juicy tidbit....while one would tend to think smaller gets increasingly more reflective, it is exactly the opposite. Smaller can add color, but it also reduces the amount of light reflected because of the lack of surface available, and increased packing density can reduce reflective ability even more.

Here is a more complete Table of the varying sizes (micron) of many common materials.

Spoiler!

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post #153 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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so it is better to paint on a black surface? gross attenuation of the light rejected by the pearl mix?
please describe

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post #154 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johny1989 View Post
has anyone tried to apply any of these mixes on a black surface (preferably matte).
I've tried a few different mixes on black surfaces.

Like Mississippi mentioned, a fairly opaque mix (one that uses a decent amount of non-clear/colored paint and a concentrated enough metallic to pair well with the paint without getting smothered) doesn't really care about the color of the underlying surface because it covers it thoroughly....as long as it's smooth, an opaque mix is pretty happy.

The FolkArt mix is translucent/clear enough that the underlying surface color can affect it, especially as you move off-axis...this means a neutral color is helpful AND a lighter shade can give a little more peak-gain plus a noticeably higher off-axis brightness.

I've also experimented with a translucent/milky-clear tintable metallic which still lost a bit of peak-gain on the black surface, but became a decently aggressive light-fighter with the dark background becoming more noticeable off-axis which meant off-axis lights hitting the screen were fought quite effectively while the image for viewers nearer the middle was bright from the high gain.

Overall a lighter/darker backing doesn't do much that you can't already mostly do using a darker or lighter-colored mix, but in my experience so far a lighter-colored underlying surface tends to help the somewhat translucent mixes give a cleaner/less-grainy image...so I'd recommend a slightly darker-colored mix on a white surface instead of getting a similarly-colored result with a translucent mix on a dark surface.

I'll try to find/post the video I recorded of the clear-metallic on black test panel for the fun of it..even though I don't really recommend it.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #155 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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polyurethane is transparent no matter what the mettalics ratio or the number of coats.
i sprayed 10 times with the poly pearl powder mix a piece of paper and light from the smartphobe flash penetrates easily all the mix and the paper.
propably i will just spray many layers of the mix on the white matte surface because i find it difficult to spread the coat evenly on the black surface.

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post #156 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 05:16 AM
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If you decide you want the mix slightly grey/silver, adding a tiny bit of neutral-black paint (just enough to give it a silvery appearance after several dusters) and applying that onto a white surface tends to give a nicer result (at least in my experience) particularly once the projector is hitting the screen....even if an uneven coverage is making the unlit screen look a little speckled/dirty from an angle in the lit room when the projector is off.


Here's the video. This was sprayed on way too thick, so the sample itself didn't look good in person, but the brightness was pretty fun. Yours looks even brighter!

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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #157 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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just finished the screen, the result is unbelievable. the contrast is so high it looks funny. the whites are so bright that you get the idea of oled tv panel and no projector.
colors are many times more vivid
i feel like i got a new hi end super expensive jvc
the only drawback is the pic gets super dim after like 60 degrees but it is enough for all the sitting positions
the blacks look so deep i can watch dark scenes of low quality old movies and stay impressed
the air temperature and humidity really helped with the result.
in the white field pattern you can see some non uniform applied coat but it is so slightly visible you never know if it is there and while watching movie you will never see it even if you try hard.
i dilluted more the mix and grainess got smoother. now i will test waterscratching (super thin) the test melamine and check for further improvements

the mix was 500ml poly
325ml water
280grams pearl dust
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post #158 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 11:15 AM
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That sounds really good. Pretty darn happy for you that you nailed the application process as well as found a mix formula the meets your own specific criteria.
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post #159 of 183 Old 05-17-2018, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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i have also made some extra conclusions.
the test melamine was satin white underlayment
the screen you see is matte white underlayment

1)the test melamine is 5%+ brighter and the mix is identical. both too many coats
2)the water scratch with fine scrathc paper (1600 version) did reduce a lot the grainess but the picture quality remained the same.
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
That sounds really good. Pretty darn happy for you that you nailed the application process as well as found a mix formula the meets your own specific criteria.
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post #160 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Missisipiman what is more transparent than polyurethane but still matte.? this kind of medium would increase the results of pearl dust.
pearl is known to have a pearl like color , i have found a pure pearl , a pearl that is still super small but purer and is used for car paints.

take a look.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KolorEFX-25...AAAOSwALhaYjhV

although 4 times more expensive than the one i got

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post #161 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johny1989 View Post
Missisipiman what is more transparent than polyurethane but still matte.? this kind of medium would increase the results of pearl dust.
pearl is known to have a pearl like color , I have found a pure pearl , a pearl that is still super small but purer and is used for car paints although 4 times more expensive than the one i got
When it comes to using a proper, Water Based carrying agent, a clear Matte Polyurethane is really the only ball game in town.

Honestly, you have to understand the combined qualities and effects in a mix's components...how they react to or augment each other to evaluate any possible change. Or just take a stab at it and hope you hit your mark (...and not get a poke in the eye...)

In your case...using the Pearl you've found in a Clear Matte Poly base, the Poly acts as a medium that both allows the "multi-coat sprayed on" Pearl to adhere to the surface as well as diffusing the overt reflective quotient by keeping the alignment of the Pearl particles randomly positioned instead of arrayed in a wholly uniform and flattened manner.

Also, and because of the multiple light Dusters, there is an inherent depth to the surface structure that not only helps with the aforementioned above, it creates a medium for the reflected light to be even more evenly dispersed.

This is the primary action that all the most higher performance Mixes I've advocated are based upon...the rest of any Metallic Content also following suit.

Now with the purer, possibly brighter Pearl you just discovered, I would strongly suggest just substituting it in the same concentration as the current Pearl....evaluate the results, then step into doing it full sized.

To increase the reflective action of the Pearl more than what your getting now risks developing serious Hot Spotting issues, and a drastically narrowed viewing cone. The only advice I could offer would be that increasing the density (ratio) of Pearl as relates to the Polyurethane, making as heavy a mix as will still spray out evenly, and apply without a "coarseness" developing on the surface.

Now thinking about the latter, if you did apply a heavier, denser series of coatings, to achieve maximum gain from the Pearl, then sand the rather "sand-papery like" finish SUPER lightly, and then apply 2 light, very thin Duster Coats of the Clear Matte Poly, that "might" do the trick to a small extent. But that's about it. And it may...or may not work. That degree of uncertainty is the reason I do not make many such "suggestions" to Members, such as some are wont to do

The ONLY assured way to improve on that would be to switch over to using a fine grained metallic Silver within the same Polyurethane Base. The Silver Mica particles are more bright, hence they provide more gain. But to use Silver Metallic exclusively as the reflective agent, the Silver must have only a very small amount of un-coated Mica, because the un-coated particles are much less reflective...so much less that they appear almost black in comparison, and that is what helps (poor choice of wording) produce graininess.

Also, the differing levels of effectiveness between Silvers, as well as the added color of the Base itself has much to do with everything. A Silver that has less gain will make a Base appear a darker Gray all by itself. A Silver Metallic coated Mica that has a higher degree of reflection is usually muted by the addition of a light Gray Tint. As you already know, there can be / is a wide variable that exists between Silver Metallics...just as you finding with the Pearl.

A few years back, when S-I-L-V-E-R was more widely used, the Base most often used was a clear Matte Glaze...which in every sense was essentially Polyurethane based, but made with a component that was predominantly Clear Acrylic. The ratio of Silver to Base never exceeded 10%, and the number of Duster coats required was never less than 8. However it was applied in the beginning using the Wagner Control Spray gun (1.6 mm) by me, and regular "Pressure Tank Fed" HVLP rigs by others (...including it's Creator, CMRA...) and that made it's application a crap shoot if the correct Needle size and application process (correctly applied Dusters) were not adhered to.

To wit, using Silver Metallic alone carries risks to the uninitiated. But it also offers the best hope for improved results, because Pearl only goes a short way to augment Colors...it's more effective at doing what amount of "brightening" it does. Silver Metallic on the other hand not only ups the gain, it can greatly enhance color saturation....and really deepen Blacks, all the while maintaining really spectacular Whites.

So...in your case, while experimenting can be productive, once you reach a certain point "performance-wise" where visual quality outweighs visual caveats, you have to be careful not to undue progress.

You just might have reached that point already....but the "DIY Bug in your Shorts" has you itchin' to scratch further. If the potential outweighs the cost...in your way of reasoning, then absolutely...have at it...give it a go!

Your end results just might reach "Brilliant" levels.

BTW....that Pearl your considering usually is carried onto the Car's surface using Acrylic & Oil Based Clear Coating....and is applied using a larger Needle/Nozzle so that it goes on much heavier than what is recommended for a Screen surface, because it's meant to create a "shimmery sparkling effect"...something we / you / us all try pretty darn hard to avoid!
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post #162 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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@miss issipiMan nice analysis

the dust pearl above it is not intended for car paint, it is many times milled and really really thin, thinner than the "breathable" I used.

i believe i will find many pearls versions /quality if i keep searching.

*last night i placed the projector 10cm further back ,calibrated zoom and focus and ...................... the center peak gain reduced drastically giving an even more uniform super brightness.too bad i dont have the space to sit further back since this can have an identical effect on peak brightness

:)
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post #163 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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pics dried 30 hours later
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post #164 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 02:53 PM
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Dispersing the central cone of light can always make a difference...especially if the screen is high gain and the PJ in use lack light uniformity (below 75% across the given projected beam)


Just remember what I said earlier....overly fine grains do not mean a brighter result....and the tendency for such to create a sheen that does hot spot with normal sizes and throws.


It was already offered up that the size grains you really want to focus on range between the 5-10 micron size
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post #165 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johny1989 View Post
@miss issipiMan nice analysis

the dust pearl above it is not intended for car paint, it is many times milled and really really thin, thinner than the "breathable" I used.

That is a very strange comment owning to the fact you specifically said it was, and the link takes you to a page that states it's for use in mixing many varied PlastiDip Car finishes.


If the image shown is not what the link represents, please try to keep your descriptions matched up with the visuals and Links.

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post #166 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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i must have mixed the links . excuse me/

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post #167 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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this is exactly what i see. the visual upgrade in quality is tremendous
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post #168 of 183 Old 05-18-2018, 07:35 PM
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A overly bright metallic always will look spectacular. Retro Reflective screens are known for optimizing contrast (Black to White) and within their viewing cone, colors can be almost excruciatingly intense.
Pure Silver Metallic coated panels...even Matte Finished Aluminum have been shown to look incredible! As long as you stood dead center and didn't move.....at all.


You have to live with the consequences of such a surface (....already elaborated on here ad nausium...) Try to see if you can accept this as fact....over the last 16 years I have seen this same scenario played out at least 2 dozen times.

Always it comes down to this; There is only so far down the Gain road you can go using granular metallic.....no matter how fine a grain size. Certain application methods can help, but always something must be done to mute excessive reflections. What / how much? Depends upon what you used and how much it took to get there.


As said before, what your doing is experimentation...and that's fully within the MO of DIY'ism. Along the way you get advice and / or warnings. You heed them...or not...and if your fortunate, you succeed in the end at reaching a place you want to be....sharing along the way.
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post #169 of 183 Old 05-19-2018, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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no nausia . no headache . i feel perfectly calm regarding the eyes and head. keep in mind i am hypochondriacwith high nerd level

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post #170 of 183 Old 05-26-2018, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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new pic ,repainted room dark grey with pearl ceiling like the screen to make contrast , i really like it
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post #171 of 183 Old 05-29-2018, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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i bought a new fridge. these days they use a backing insulation made out of anodized aluminum sheets.
i pic a is the anodized alu sheet . pic b is the my pearl mix. both with colse ups with flash

check how much better is the alu in reflecting while keeping a diffuse pattern.

i am really curious of such a surface would make us crazy in terms of contrast and gain.
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post #172 of 183 Old 05-29-2018, 09:05 AM
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The crazy thing about anodized aluminum sheeting, ones that have a "Matte-like" surface, is that there is always a pronounced, "brighter than everywhere else" hot spot that intrudes upon Center. Also, Image Noise was / is a problem. In the past, adding Matt Clear Poly has been tried...along with other Glazing's, in the attempt to reduce / eliminate the unwanted effect. None were very successful.

It's kinda sad too, because if you remove the Hot Spot / Noise issues, the resulting image is incredibly dynamic.


BTW...using a Flash (...all are Focused down to a narrow area....) is really putting a surface to a disadvantage. However....your example does show a marked difference...one that I relate to the Paint itself being too retro reflective.
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post #173 of 183 Old 05-31-2018, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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direct led spot 6.5w on the screen. pj at low lamp mode.
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post #174 of 183 Old 07-19-2018, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Update more to come
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:)
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post #175 of 183 Old 07-19-2018, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Last pic lens shifted left. Check how black is the screen is when not projector on
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post #176 of 183 Old 07-22-2018, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Did perform a lot of testing and blacks and contrast is much improved with led back light on especially the blue shade.

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post #177 of 183 Old 07-23-2018, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Moderator please clean and exit this thread

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post #178 of 183 Old 07-23-2018, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johny1989 View Post
Moderator please clean and exit this thread
I hope I'm just misunderstanding. You aren't requesting any of the cool things you've found to be deleted by a moderator, are you?

Your screen looks really good, and the backlight makes it look even better!
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #179 of 183 Old 07-23-2018, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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thank you
no no no
i would just like some reordering . like moving the pics to the first page maybe.

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post #180 of 183 Old 07-23-2018, 03:01 PM
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Just reconstruct the beginning and use the Edit Feature to Copy & Paste content that includes what you want to be seen in the order you want it to be. If that is the thread you respond to, this one will recede back into the shadows.


Also...keep in mind that the trial and error aspect you experienced can be beneficial as far as warning other experimenters away from non-productive routes previously taken.
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"They said it couldn't be done. Well, we sure showed 'em otherwise!"
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