Screen Things are looking Dark in Sunny San Diego...BF 12.0 !! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 9 Old 11-14-2018, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Screen Things are looking Dark in Sunny San Diego...BF 12.0 !!

Hello all,


Just returned from a relatively quick stint in San Diego where I proceeded to paint two 5' 10' sheets of Sintra.

One was a Black Flame 6.0 (2 quarts w/ 4oz BF Colorant)
The 2nd a customized Black Flame 12.0 that used 2 quarts of Black Flame w/ 10 oz BF Colorant and 8oz of a Custom Neutral Gray I have used before for high lumen applications.


While the eventual use of the Screen shown will be with mega -Lumen 4K projectors (10k to 12k Lumen), the examples all shown are 5' x 10' images shot from a lowly Epson 2045 (1750 Lumen optimistically, in Bright Cinema Mode)



The Screens were both sprayed using a Earlex 2901 Spray head w/1.0 mm needle. I have not bothered to post any images of the 4.0 screen as it has had very many examples shown on this Forum.



Starting out...a shot of the 12.0 in full lighting with no image.





Next, a series of Primaries (RBG) in a semi darkened room (garage with one 100 watt lamp in the rear right corner). It was remarked to me by someone who does 3D & CGI rendering that the projected images had better, more saturated Color than his MacBook monitor.













Then...in order for the Client to observe the increase of the Black Levels under worse case situation...I projected a Black field while holding the light directly toward the Screen.








Ok...now for a little bit of Video Content:








Turned the view to one of the Client's 1080p Security Cams.....







Here is the Monitor Screen in the dark.....







.........and a couple showing that same image under extremely hurtful, direct lighting from a total of 6- 4' Florescent Bulbs...2 of which whose ends are almost directly above the Screen.










I tilted the image a bit so the darknes of the Screen could be seen under the lighting as opposed to the imaged area.. Bodes well for the "Black Bark"crowd.




I am fully certain that if the projector was push 3-6K more lumens onto the shade of Black Flame 12.0 as shown, it would easily overwhelm the foot candles of room brightness as well defeat the intrusive light that is at least dulling the image to some extent. Even so, the results certainly show what 1750 Lumen can accomplish on a 5' x 10' screen area under absolutely insane light. That being the case, adjust your own needs and expectations based on less extreme circumstances.



The last two images show first, a white card example against the Screen surface to highlight the shading difference....





And lastly, for those who'd like to experiment....my Custom "dead on neutral" Dark Gray. The numerical code at the bottom of the label is what makes an exact duplication easy at Home Depot, using the PPG Diamond Flat. This Mix is wholly customized...there is no Color Card example that will match it. Use it wisely....preferably along with a Silver Fire / Black Flame mix as a final "add-in" to a Colorant assisted shade. I don't suggest using it by itself, or simply mixed with any non-tinted Metallic, but if you do, do it as a experiment, not a defined course of action as YRMVW.







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Last edited by MississippiMan; 11-16-2018 at 09:38 AM. Reason: I changed on word........
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post #2 of 9 Old 11-14-2018, 02:22 PM
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The tilted image and white sample side-by-side/overlaid are great additions along with the rest of the pictures. That affordable Epson is a great way to get a good yet realistic/reasonable amount of brightness despite some really angry lighting.

I'll still shake a fist at you for showing-off your own paid services and pre-made/sold mix, but it is a good-looking screen.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #3 of 9 Old 11-15-2018, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The tilted image and white sample side-by-side/overlaid are great additions along with the rest of the pictures. That affordable Epson is a great way to get a good yet realistic/reasonable amount of brightness despite some really angry lighting.

I'll still shake a fist at you for showing-off your own paid services and pre-made/sold mix, but it is a good-looking screen.

Thank you for the compliment. The entire object of the San Diego effort was to show the ability for Projection Screen Displays in larger commercial show settings to resist intrusive light, while holding costs down to absolute minimum levels. Also to provide design flexibility for oddly shaped displays and artistic endeavors.


As such the results hold much relevancy for a large majority of DIY'ers whose applications in the least will involve a degree of ambient light present, while still others must deal with abusive light and consider very expensive ALR Screens. Screens are getting BIGGER in homes, and such performance at a budget cost is desperately needed.

Spoiler!

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post #4 of 9 Old 11-15-2018, 10:13 AM
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Wow, your screen is really impressive. At some point in the next several years I'd like to copy your work for a 2nd DIY screen in my large living room that isn't particularly light-controlled. Right now I just have a 46 inch Panasonic plasma mounted to the wall.

U-Turn Orbit Plus turntable, Marantz SR-7009 AVR, iNuke 6000DSP, DIY LinkwitzLab speakers, MartyCube + JohnnySub, BenQ W1070, Roku stick, Plex
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post #5 of 9 Old 11-15-2018, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by genesplitter View Post
Wow, your screen is really impressive. At some point in the next several years I'd like to copy your work for a 2nd DIY screen in my large living room that isn't particularly light-controlled. Right now I just have a 46 inch Panasonic plasma mounted to the wall.



Several years..................


You may well have to thank me posthumously.


I wouldn't wait so long....catch me above ground and I can do a lot more alive to help you out than via a seance.
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post #6 of 9 Old 11-22-2018, 10:38 AM
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wouldnt it be better if the grey was a first layer of screen ?. then on top many dusts of your mix(metallics with poly)

:)
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post #7 of 9 Old 11-23-2018, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johny1989 View Post
wouldnt it be better if the grey was a first layer of screen ?. then on top many dusts of your mix(metallics with poly)

Not under most situations because having a bright white layer underneath a translucent Gray allows for the brighter / white light that is absorbed / passes through the dark initial surface is collected and recombined (...although attenuated...) into the topmost image, giving the Whites and brighter Colors a needed boost assist.


Now yeah...if you had 10,000+ lumen hitting a very dark Gray surface of a respectable size, certainly the Blacks produced would be deeper....but there would be some degree of loss in White Levels and Color dynamics. It would be better in almost every case to have an even darker Translucent Top Layer over a bright White substrate than it would be to have a darker substrate that simple goes further toward attenuating and absorbing the incoming light.
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post #8 of 9 Old 11-23-2018, 08:11 AM
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one possibility that is missed here is to have an underlayment surface of black chrome wrap vinyl or simply dust the underlayment with a darker tint but being high in reflectance value like piano finishes or gloss(the only pitfall here would be that most of these colours don't come as water-based).
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Not under most situations because having a bright white layer underneath a translucent Gray allows for the brighter / white light that is absorbed / passes through the dark initial surface is collected and recombined (...although attenuated...) into the topmost image, giving the Whites and brighter Colors a needed boost assist.


Now yeah...if you had 10,000+ lumen hitting a very dark Gray surface of a respectable size, certainly the Blacks produced would be deeper....but there would be some degree of loss in White Levels and Color dynamics. It would be better in almost every case to have an even darker Translucent Top Layer over a bright White substrate than it would be to have a darker substrate that simple goes further toward attenuating and absorbing the incoming light.

:)
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post #9 of 9 Old 11-23-2018, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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No...not missed...but tried several years ago...as I have already stated on other Threads you've asked the same on. The results were less than satisfactory.

And I thought (...but I'm not sure...) you also have already experimented with similar approaches...although I never saw any report of exemplary end results.

Glossy or Metallic reflectivity on a Black Substrate underneath a similarly formulated Dark Top coat isn't conducive to adding much except unwanted sheen or graininess. If the Top Coating is opaque enough to offset those issues, then any advantages (...if any...) in having them is also lost. Also...attenuation is cumlative. Dark over Dark = even Darker....usually.

After 16 years examining and trying virtually every combination known to exist with all the known and many varied materials, you'd be hard pressed to come up with anything new at this juncture...except perhaps a new version of an older product that simply does a better job. But as I've said repeatedly to you and many others, never let anything said discourage you from trying something someone else says won't work...of in the least not work well..


Lots of People in the past on this Forum did exactly that, tossing such nay-saying in my direction all through the 2000s, and because I and others just ignored them (...when we could...) we went on to create applications that surpassed everything that had came before.

But it wasn't all "Epiphany Based" revelations...lemmie tell ya!

Back in 2002 I myself spent almost a full month reading every single DIY oriented Thread going back almost to the very beginning of AVS...and all the Posts within thoseThreads, concerning the use of Paints to create Screens....much of which were negative results, ones that had / showed some promise but more detrimental issues. That came at a time when most PJ Heads owned 3-Tube CRTs, and they we always looking for more Gain (Blacks were not an issue...) But anything...ANYTHING that detracted from the pristine CRT Image quality was dismissed outright. It was not until the breakout of more affordable, sensible sized projectors such as the InFocus X1 DLP and slightly later Sanyo Z1 LCD models that "Normals" got into the "BIG picture" (...oh, there were some Folks that stole away home with their Company Office Presentation Projectors...they rounded out the numbers somewhat. )

Those El' Cheapo DLPs & LCDs desperately needed help across the board. More Gain to accommodate low Lumen output. And something...anything to improve the sub 500:1 Contrast.

Well...the last couple paragraphs are themselves kinda a rehash of what has been ventured many times before, so please excuse my excessive verbosity.
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