Can paint mixes have ALR properties? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Can paint mixes have ALR properties?

Can paint mixes have ALR properties?
ALR /Ambient Light Rejecting implies that the light is rejected, with some ALR fabrics having narrow viewing cones as a result.

Can paints do the same? Do paints just absorb the ambient light and reject it uniformly?

I don't think a paint can reproduce the technology incorporated in some screens like lenticular, but what about angular type ALR's?
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post #2 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 08:21 AM
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Some ALR screens include embedded reflective elements to help achieve ALR properties. It's possible to include similar reflective elements mixed in translucent paint to achieve similar ALR properties. How the actual performance of an ALR paint would compare with an ALR screen would require objective comparison testing by experienced, unbiased AV reviewers. Otherwise you would need to rely on marketing claims and user comments that may not always be objective and unbiased opinions from people with experience in making such judgments.
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post #3 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Can paint mixes have ALR properties?
ALR /Ambient Light Rejecting implies that the light is rejected, with some ALR fabrics having narrow viewing cones as a result.

Can paints do the same? Do paints just absorb the ambient light and reject it uniformly?

I don't think a paint can reproduce the technology incorporated in some screens like lenticular, but what about angular type ALR's?
Yes they can do "Angular"......that has always be easy enough to accomplish simply by maintaining Gain while at the same time deepening the Black and retaining Color dynamics.

Back not to terribly long ago, some few DIY detractors wanted to use just such a limit on viewing cone as a weaponized bludgeon....that is until Screen Mfg started embracing exactly the same "technology". Frankly speaking....advanced DIY Screen making has always been more on the cutting edge than it has been lagging behind playing catch up. Ultra sooth "4K Ready" surfaces for instance....such smoothness has always been a hallmark of a well done DIY Screen. The first noticeably proficient ALR(resistant) DIY Screens hit this Forum all the way back in 2004-05...resulting as an offshoot from the development of paint formulas that could enhance on-screen Contrast without muting White and colors. The caveat being that the more effort that is made to go further down that road, the more restrictive viewing come often becomes.

Candidly, it is exactly the resulting loss of viewing cone that is something that really good ALR (resistant) Paint solutions usually can avoid, and that has always led to the effort to avoid such. As such there are different levels one can aspire to have, something that really isn't practical as far as Mfg Screens are concerned.

The Angular aspect can be taken to extremes.....shucks....a Retro-Reflective Paint is another easily accomplished feature if one can place the Projector accordingly. But other issues such as Screen artifacts (graininess) can ruin the effort, just as they do with retro-reflective Mfg Screens. Such was why back then such longer viewing distances were always suggested by Mfg.

As for true Ambient Light Rejection...well we can still come close, certainly close enough to satisfy most wants and needs. We can also "mostly" avoid the graininess issue. And when one compares the level of proficiency of a painted solution to that of screens that cost $1000s of dollars, DIY'ing a ALR(rejection) screen can do a damnable good job of it.

So now then noob00224 , what's your poison?
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
How the actual performance of an ALR paint would compare with an ALR screen would require objective comparison testing by experienced, unbiased AV reviewers. Otherwise you would need to rely on marketing claims and user comments that may not always be objective and unbiased opinions from people with experience in making such judgments.
All throughout the history of DIY Screen making, such a drive to try to qualify DIY by making it undergo the same level of authoritative testing and evaluation that "some" Mfg Screens undergo has been used to dismiss and/or discredit the many extremely glowing testimonials made by the people that matter....the end users who post such exclamations on this Forum.

Really....it's much more clearly definable a choice that all that.

Here's a kicker...I personally have reached out to a few Members whose abilities could qualify them to do such...as well as the Representative of at least 3 Web-Based Review sites. So far, none has taken up the offer.....(Forum Politics no doubt...or demands that finished DIY Screens be provided...) and even Projector Central, who did their own take on what a supposed DIY painted screen would /should be (...and failed miserably...) never responded.

Peer reviews....literally a few 1000s of them have always been more than sufficient, so any attempt to belittle all those member's efforts to express their satisfaction with the end results should be viewed as just being no more or less subjective than the actual member's reviews themselves.
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post #4 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm doing some research for current/future setups.

The setup is a Benq W2000 (HT3050) at x1.5 throw range on a 106" Cinegrey 3D. Room with white walls. Lights off viewing, with small amount of light coming through the blackout blinds. There is also light from a monitor attached to the HTPC, as well as other LED's from electronics around the room.
It has a hotspot and sparkle on Normal and Eco lamp. Even when the previous lamp was at 3500h it still had a hotspot. Black levels are not great. Colors are great.

Compared to the white screen beforehand, it has better blacks and colors.

I know the blacks can go lower because I had a Cinegrey matte (non ALR, but with a 1.0 gain claim). The colors however, were very washed out. Did not take the projector down and sat it at the lowest throw range, maybe that would have improved things.

An enthusiast sent me a few samples of Black Widow variations. One which was called Grey Pearl, claimed the gain was 1.2, was identical to the Cinegrey 3D if placed on the center of the screen. The black floor was the same. Placing it in a corner made a difference because of the hotspot.

I'd like to lower the black floor without losing color pop, and get rid of the hotspot.
Is that possible?
Spraying would be difficult, how long does the paint take to dry?
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post #5 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@MississippiMan
I'm doing some research for current/future setups.

The setup is a Benq W2000 (HT3050) at x1.5 throw range on a 106" Cinegrey 3D. Room with white walls. Lights off viewing, with small amount of light coming through the blackout blinds. There is also light from a monitor attached to the HTPC, as well as other LED's from electronics around the room.
It has a hotspot and sparkle on Normal and Eco lamp. Even when the previous lamp was at 3500h it still had a hotspot. Black levels are not great. Colors are great.

Compared to the white screen beforehand, it has better blacks and colors.

I know the blacks can go lower because I had a Cinegrey matte (non ALR, but with a 1.0 gain claim). The colors however, were very washed out. Did not take the projector down and sat it at the lowest throw range, maybe that would have improved things.

I'd like to lower the black floor without losing color pop, and get rid of the hotspot.
Is that possible?

Really...it's "Cave Man" easy and absolutely doable.



Quote:
Spraying would be difficult, how long does the paint take to dry?

Spraying is actually easier than rolling, as far as getting yourself a perfect surface. But another consideration is that to use Mixes that incorporate Metallic content and Polyurethanes to achieve the ALR performance desired, one cannot Roll....spraying is required. Rolling creates sheen...sheen equates to Hot Spotting.



But take heart....correctly sprayed using what we call the "Duster" method, each coat (7-8 total) takes only 15-20 minutes to dry, making the completion of the entire process only take about 3.5 hours
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post #6 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Really...it's "Cave Man" easy and absolutely doable.






Spraying is actually easier than rolling, as far as getting yourself a perfect surface. But another consideration is that to use Mixes that incorporate Metallic content and Polyurethanes to achieve the ALR performance desired, one cannot Roll....spraying is required. Rolling creates sheen...sheen equates to Hot Spotting.



But take heart....correctly sprayed using what we call the "Duster" method, each coat (7-8 total) takes only 15-20 minutes to dry, making the completion of the entire process only take about 3.5 hours
That sounds interesting.
The ALR element I'm interested in is only for lights off viewing, reducing the negative effect from wall reflections mainly, no lights on.

The fabric will have to be stretched when applying the paint?
Can it be rolled in a tube afterwards, for storage?

Are the paint mixtures safe, should the spraying be done outside?

EU location, what kind of features should the spray gun have, any reference model?
What are ingredients for the mixture that can be locally sourced? Better to import?

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post #7 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
That sounds interesting.
The ALR element I'm interested in is only for lights off viewing, reducing the negative effect from wall reflections mainly, no lights on.
That is fairly straightforward and the easiest version to make up / purchase. The Mix can be formulated to be ideally suited for such low level reflected ambient light, and at the same time provide immeasurably better Blacks and dynamic Color
Quote:
The fabric will have to be stretched when applying the paint?
If your using Fabric, yes....it needs to be pulled taunt.
Quote:
Can it be rolled in a tube afterwards, for storage?
Considering that such Mixes have been applied to Electric / Manual Retractable Screens for15+ years with no issues reported, absolutely. The real question is how it is installed / Removed-Stored - Re-installed. It is a fairly tough, resilient coating, but it's not meant to be manhandled repeatedly. Retractable Screens of course never receive such abuse.
Quote:
Are the paint mixtures safe, should the spraying be done outside?
All the Silver Fire /Black Flame paints consist of all Water-bourne components. I myself do 99% of all the screens I produce inside and in-place where they are to hang. In a properly prepared area, a little dry paint dust is easily collected on thin plastic Sheeting, and it's always best to wear at least a Paper Respirator Mask since you right up within 18"-20" of where the paint is hitting the screen surface. Otherwise, a small amount of paint-induced odor can be smelt...but not a lot since each coat only has the Gun in operation for 30-45 seconds on average.
Quote:
EU location, what kind of features should the spray gun have, any reference model?
It should be an Electric HVLP w/a 1.5 to 1.0 mm Tip. There are some suitable ones available on Amazon UK that cost under 54 euros
Quote:
What are ingredients for the mixture that can be locally sourced? Better to import?
A lot of territory in the EU. Some ingredients can be locally sourced if a similar comparable alternative exists. Much depends upon exactly where in the EU one resides. Local White Base.....Water Bourne Acryic Clear Matte Floor Finish....Filtered Water.....all are pretty easy to find. It's the specific Metallic content (Acrylic White Pearl & Silver) that are most difficult to obtain, so often individuals order those separately, or simply order a complete ready to spray Mix.
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post #8 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

It should be an Electric HVLP w/a 1.5 to 1.0 mm Tip. There are some suitable ones available on Amazon UK that cost under 54 euros

A lot of territory in the EU. Some ingredients can be locally sourced if a similar comparable alternative exists. Much depends upon exactly where in the EU one resides. Local White Base.....Water Bourne Acryic Clear Matte Floor Finish....Filtered Water.....all are pretty easy to find. It's the specific Metallic content (Acrylic White Pearl & Silver) that are most difficult to obtain, so often individuals order those separately, or simply order a complete ready to spray Mix.

Thanks.
I will look through the available brands and see what is available.

LE: does the mix have to be adjusted depending on room properties or preference?

Last edited by noob00224; 11-08-2019 at 09:55 AM.
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post #9 of 31 Old 11-04-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Thanks.
I will look through the available brands and see what is available.

LE: does the mix have to be adjusted depending on room properties or preference?
Both is the way to get an optimal experience.
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post #10 of 31 Old 11-08-2019, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

It should be an Electric HVLP w/a 1.5 to 1.0 mm Tip. There are some suitable ones available on Amazon UK that cost under 54 euros

A lot of territory in the EU. Some ingredients can be locally sourced if a similar comparable alternative exists. Much depends upon exactly where in the EU one resides. Local White Base.....Water Bourne Acryic Clear Matte Floor Finish....Filtered Water.....all are pretty easy to find. It's the specific Metallic content (Acrylic White Pearl & Silver) that are most difficult to obtain, so often individuals order those separately, or simply order a complete ready to spray Mix.
Looked at some options locally, online.

For the paint gun I could not find a specification regarding the tip.
Will any of these models work: Bosch PFS 2000, Wagner W 100, Einhell TC-SY 600 S, Einhell TC-SY 500 P, BLACK+DECKER HVLP200.

Is filtered water the same as distilled water? I have some for a steamer, without impurities.

Having trouble finding some equivalents.
Can you provide some links with examples?

White base.
Is this enamel or acrylic?
Does it have a number?

Water Bourne Acryic Clear Matte Floor Finish. Same for this one, not sure what it is.

Acrylic White Pearl & Silver. A link for these?


What will be the gain of the screen?
Being water based how is it cleaned?
Is the painting done with the screen horizontally or vertically?

LE: what are the quantities for one 106" 16:9 screen?

LE2: The fabric found claims it's for projection, but says interweave type. I assume a smooth surface is necessary?

Last edited by noob00224; 11-08-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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post #11 of 31 Old 11-08-2019, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Which mix should I be looking at?
There is no Behr in Romania, but there is Dulux, as well as some others:



There are stores that sell Liquitex, Valspar and Rust-Oleum, but could not find the specific variants mentioned in some of the threads.
Can Carl's blackout cloth be used as a base? It has a texture.
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post #12 of 31 Old 11-08-2019, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Looked at some options locally, online.

For the paint gun I could not find a specification regarding the tip.
Will any of these models work: Bosch PFS 2000, Wagner W 100, Einhell TC-SY 600 S, Einhell TC-SY 500 P, BLACK+DECKER HVLP200.


Try This one. It has a 1 mm Needle/Nozzle





Is filtered water the same as distilled water? I have some for a steamer, without impurities.


Either will do fine. Distilled Water has virtually no particles or impurities because because it is water boiled, and the Steam is collected.
Filtered water is rid of rid of particles or impurities by means if it passing through.....a Filter.
Distilled is best...that is why it is used for Irons and Steamers. Nothing to clog up the plumbin'


Having trouble finding some equivalents.
Can you provide some links with examples?

White base.

Is this enamel or acrylic
Does it have a number? No...just described on the Can that it is Pure White / or Ultimate White. It's White paint.

Water Bourne Acryic Clear Matte Floor Finish. Same for this one, not sure what it is.



Water Bourne Paint or Stains or Poly coatings or Glue have no Petroleum products. Hence the ability for one to rinse / wash up with Water. There is no stink....they are non-flammable.


HERE is the Poly Clear Matte


Acrylic White Pearl & Silver. A link for these?


White Pearl

Silver



What will be the gain of the screen?


That would be determined by the amount of Colorant (or none) that is added. Between 0.9 to 1.3


Being water based how is it cleaned?

With Soap & Water. Gotta guess you were talking about Clean Up? If your referring to the painted Screen Surface...regular Dusting will keep it pristene because the dried / cured surface is very tough due to the high acrylic content of the combined Paints. It can be wiped clean of non staining debris with a Moistened Cotton Cloth. That covers 'almost' everything that can happen, from Beer to PJ-coated fingers. Petroleum-based (Magic Marker...Pen Ink)....no. You'd have to sand re-coat over those issues. Not so bad though...your have to replace a Mfg screen without have such a recoat option..



Is the painting done with the screen horizontally or vertically?

Always Vertically, And all applied Rows are Horizontal, with each subsequent next row overlapping the one prior by 60%


LE: what are the quantities for one 106" 16:9 screen?


If you make the mix as proportioned, you will have roughly just under 1/2 total remaining. Enough to practice a bit beforehand,with enough for any future repairs...small or large. That might not be economical though since the only assured silver and metallic paints I could find were in 2 oz, bottles

In the States, a 32 oz Jar averages 28-36.00 usd. Individual 2 oz bottles are almost 2x as much cost-wise. You can scale down the size of the mix by 1/2 by adjusting the percentage amounts. But I would not try any less. There is security in have excess...you cannot paint with what you didn't make.


LE2: The fabric found claims it's for projection, but says interweave type. I assume a smooth surface is necessary?

Interpreting some screen descriptions can be confusing. Send me a link. And yes, smooth is best. Vinyl or PVC will always be ultra smooth.




Which mix should I be looking at?
There is no Behr in Romania, but there is Dulux, as well as some others:


Dulux Trade Brilliant White (Interior Water Based)


Dulux Light & Space w/Lumetec Absolute White is Best


There are stores that sell Liquitex, Valspar and Rust-Oleum, but could not find the specific variants mentioned in some of the threads.

Well I've provided you with most of what you need.



Can Carl's blackout cloth be used as a base? It has a texture.
No....If it's Carl's,you want the Flex-White. Ultra smooth, stretches enough to make installation much easier.
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Quote:
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No....If it's Carl's,you want the Flex-White. Ultra smooth, stretches enough to make installation much easier.
Can't tell from the pictures, I will give them a call or try to get a sample: Link Link
Carl's Flexiwhite/grey is another option. How long does it take for the folded version to decrease, if mounted on a frame?
There is also Harkness, it may be more cost effective.
I do have a white screen of blackout cloth with a rubber layer. This fabric produced artifacts due to the weave, and the weave can be seen on the back. Will probably test to see if it's visible.

The two Dulux examples are for white paint?
Could not find those locally.

What quantities go in the mix and in what order/combination?
How is the mix done?

Number of coat paints, time between coats?

What are the properties of the screen that can be changed? Gain, brighter colors, darker blacks, etc?
And how does the mix change to achieve different results?

Is there a guide I could follow? With general practices?
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Can't tell from the pictures, I will give them a call or try to get a sample: Link Link
Carl's Flexiwhite/grey is another option. How long does it take for the folded version to decrease, if mounted on a frame?
There is also Harkness, it may be more cost effective.
I do have a white screen of blackout cloth with a rubber layer. This fabric produced artifacts due to the weave, and the weave can be seen on the back. Will probably test to see if it's visible.
Said it once...will repeat. Black Out Cloth is a "I don't have any choice...." selection. Stay with a smooth, white blemish free / weave-free choice.

Quote:
The two Dulux examples are for white paint?
Could not find those locally.
Just pick out a true Acrylic Interior paint of good quality....preferably one that is labeled as being a "Brilliant or Ultimate White"

Quote:
What quantities go in the mix and in what order/combination?
How is the mix done?
Complete instructions are on the Silver Fire Thread. Quanties can be scaled to need from the stated amounts. Many get but nicely without the use of the Colorant.

Quote:
Number of coat paints, time between coats?
6 to 8 coats. Using the Duster technique, each coat goes up quickly (...under a minute...) and under decent drying conditions is ready for the next coat in/at under 30 minutes Within 15-20 minutes if a clean 20" Fan is employed from a distance of 6-8'

Quote:
What are the properties of the screen that can be changed? Gain, brighter colors, darker blacks, etc?
And how does the mix change to achieve different results?
Same question asked 2x. The Reflective / Viscosity Mixes combined deliver a gain of / close to 1.3 From there, the addition of various amounts of colorant will proportionately darken the Grey shading, resulting in deeper Blacks and more color saturation. Darker levels (...adding more than 4-5 oz of colorant to the listed Mix amount...) should be reserved for the use of higher Lumen PJs....or Smaller Screen sizes....both when there is ambient light present. Even more adjustments can be made if intense ambient light is present.....both screen shading & size, along with a judicious choice of projector capability.

Quote:
Is there a guide I could follow? With general practices?
General instructions are supplied on virtually every Thread with more than 3-4 responses that mentions a Painted Screen....as well as within the Silver Fire Thread upon doing a read beyond the 1st 3-4 pages.

Beyond that, I can be coerced into supply a basic guide, even one specific to the need / mix choice / HVLP gun chosen. But it's all be posted many times.

Rotate back 3-4 pages of threads....you'll get a plethora of data.
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post #15 of 31 Old 11-14-2019, 02:56 PM
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I wonder if the FolkArt GunmetalGrey mix would offer a noticeable uniformity/hotspot improvement compared to the Cinegrey3D.

It'll definitely darken the black floor compared to the Cinegrey3D while keeping the colors bold, and it only requires two ingredients (three if you count water) which are available online (sometimes in stores) all over the world. It can safely be used indoors and the resulting surface can be rolled-up for storage after it's cured.
But it does still need to be sprayed on, and I'm not sure if you're interested in looking at different mixes or if your hands are already pretty full.
Either way, let me know.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I wonder if the FolkArt GunmetalGrey mix would offer a noticeable uniformity/hotspot improvement compared to the Cinegrey3D.

It'll definitely darken the black floor compared to the Cinegrey3D while keeping the colors bold, and it only requires two ingredients (three if you count water) which are available online (sometimes in stores) all over the world. It can safely be used indoors and the resulting surface can be rolled-up for storage after it's cured.
But it does still need to be sprayed on, and I'm not sure if you're interested in looking at different mixes or if your hands are already pretty full.
Either way, let me know.
I'll try this mix as well, are the materials, quantities and other info on these two threads up to date?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...een-paint.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...-paintmix.html
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post #17 of 31 Old 11-14-2019, 09:23 PM
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I'll try this mix as well, are the materials, quantities and other info on these two threads up to date?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...een-paint.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...-paintmix.html
There are a boatload of different mix options between those two threads (I was thinking of the 1:1:1 mix of FolkArt Metallic GunmetalGrey and Matte-finish waterbased polyurethane and water mentioned in the second thread), but yes both threads should be up to date.

If you're going to be trying/testing things, did you have any particular surfaces or test-sizes in mind? I believe you'll already be purchasing a quart of matte-finish waterbased polyurethane for anything SilverFire related, and that mix only uses half of the quart which means you'll have plenty of polyurethane left to use for testing as well as for practicing spraying until you like the results of both (both the spraying and whichever mix you settle on, if you find one that you like better than your current screen).
For example, if you're going to use Carl's FlexiWhite surface, you can often buy partically damaged pieces or scraps for a nice discount if you need smaller or scrappier pieces both for testing and for practicing spraying. If you decide to buy a full-size screen material from carls to paint you'll definitely want to get it rolled to avoid potentially perminant creases, BUT any pieces you get for tests or practice should be fine to order folded to save money...though if you're able to find something very smooth and affordable locally, that would be better (at least for tests and practice if it doesn't fill your rollup or screen-size needs).
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There are a boatload of different mix options between those two threads (I was thinking of the 1:1:1 mix of FolkArt Metallic GunmetalGrey and Matte-finish waterbased polyurethane and water mentioned in the second thread), but yes both threads should be up to date.

If you're going to be trying/testing things, did you have any particular surfaces or test-sizes in mind? I believe you'll already be purchasing a quart of matte-finish waterbased polyurethane for anything SilverFire related, and that mix only uses half of the quart which means you'll have plenty of polyurethane left to use for testing as well as for practicing spraying until you like the results of both (both the spraying and whichever mix you settle on, if you find one that you like better than your current screen).
For example, if you're going to use Carl's FlexiWhite surface, you can often buy partically damaged pieces or scraps for a nice discount if you need smaller or scrappier pieces both for testing and for practicing spraying. If you decide to buy a full-size screen material from carls to paint you'll definitely want to get it rolled to avoid potentially perminant creases, BUT any pieces you get for tests or practice should be fine to order folded to save money...though if you're able to find something very smooth and affordable locally, that would be better (at least for tests and practice if it doesn't fill your rollup or screen-size needs).
I already have a white screen with a rubber coating that produces artifacts. Haven't cut the original piece, which is large. Also have some thin plywood ~3mm in small and large sizes.
For the final surface there are a few options, I have to contact them and see what is available. Last option would be Carl's.
Going to go through through the threads and see what combinations are possible and try them out.
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post #19 of 31 Old 11-14-2019, 09:40 PM
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I've been using Silver Fire for many years..... relatively simple to mix and looks AWESOME!!!



Jump in.... the water is fine....


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post #20 of 31 Old 11-15-2019, 06:23 AM
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I wonder if the FolkArt GunmetalGrey mix would offer a noticeable uniformity/hotspot improvement compared to the Cinegrey3D.

It'll definitely darken the black floor compared to the Cinegrey3D while keeping the colors bold, and it only requires two ingredients (three if you count water) which are available online (sometimes in stores) all over the world.

All Folk Art paints come only in 2 oz. Bottles that cost approx. 4 euros ea. (4.4 USD) and another.78 Euro for delivery and that amounts to a hefty expense when one needs the amount needed to do anything larger than a 90"-100"diagonal screen. Then there is the actual availability factor...which is in itself rather spotty more often than it is in ready supply.



But perhaps the most important thing to relate is that while there is some improvement in lessening Hot Spotting over a Mfg example such as the Cinegray3D, lessening does not mean eliminating, and when gain must be reduced to effect any real degree of ALR, that is counterproductive...and in the opposite vein, if gain is increased in a ALR mix by increasing Metallic content, both Hot Spotting and a penchant for a "grainier" appearance in increased.


While embracing a simpler formula to obtain acceptable results is certainly a viable choice when such is desired or required, when going to the pains of creating a DIY Projections screen that needs must have particular qualities comparable to Mfg ALR screens (...or even more simplier Contrast Boosting screens...) one has to decide just how resplendent a finish to one's efforts will be.


Simply put...simple is exactly that, and unfortunately such an approach comes up short in too many ways for me to embrace suggesting such out of hand over a more advanced approach. Oh..I will when the need or restrictions apply...such as component availability and expense, but in truth, it all boils down to a personal choice (...or acceptance if you will...) as to if one can or must settle for something less because they must...or simply don't feel the need to embrace what is best.


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@noob00224
I've been using Silver Fire for many years..... relatively simple to mix and looks AWESOME!!!

Jump in.... the water is fine....

Juju

Years of such expressed satisfaction by so many around the Globe should count for something. But all too often are overlooked or ignored when responses are given in exception to very real needs with the dangling of the "Simple & Inexpensive" Carrot...without qualifying what is lost as well as "saved". That is tantamount to dispensing incomplete advice. I myself must and almost always usually do provide both sides of the coin to those who inquire as to what will work best. I lest the stated facts do the decision making. Most anyone who has dealt directly with me in these matters will attest to that. I do not discourage rolling when one says that is the ONLY method that can be employed, and I can easily enough alter any advanced Mix to conform to such limits. Thankfully there is less need to do so these days.


In keeping with that expressed feeling, the advocacy stated that Spraying is the best way to receive optimal results is at least encouraging to see posted. But not enough is said to discourage rolling as being a route to decidedly lessor performance....performance that is also less desirable. It's not an easy task to have to relate the drawbacks to someone looking for something that they hope will be a great addition to their lives. But it's worse to ignore doing so and be responsible for letting individuals not have a choice based on being properly and completely informed.


That's my job description in all of this....and I'll continue to adhere to that mandate.



What I don't do is suggest truly halfway measures simply because they would satisfy someone who has no reference by which to judge the differences
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post #21 of 31 Old 11-15-2019, 06:59 AM
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Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion but I've read in other threads that flat black paint that some people have used for walls etc.. rubs off on your hands or is hard to clean etc..


I'm painting the ceiling in my unfinished basement and yesterday I bought some Aqua Lock flat black paint from one of Benjamin Moore's Industrial stores. They recommended it because it's a flat black primer and will stick to anything and should alleviate some of the other issues with normal flat black paint. Just throwing that out there.
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[Snip].....

What I don't do is suggest truly halfway measures simply because they would satisfy someone who has no reference by which to judge the differences

Based on your own words..... if they have "no reference" as you say, how would they know what they like unless they try it first? People can write whatever they like about a particular "mix" but, you don't know if it works for you until you see it for yourself.....


I have been where he is now and all the verbiage in the world will not tell you how it will look in YOUR SPACE....you have to see it in your space....



So your point is what now?


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post #23 of 31 Old 11-15-2019, 10:21 AM
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Based on your own words..... if they have "no reference" as you say, how would they know what they like unless they try it first? People can write whatever they like about a particular "mix" but, you don't know if it works for you until you see it for yourself.....

I have been where he is now and all the verbiage in the world will not tell you how it will look in YOUR SPACE....you have to see it in your space....

So your point is what now?

Juju
Someone...or some posting must have made you decide to use Silver Fire....unless you did have the good fortune to see someone else's own example in person.

My point being ....I absolutely feel empowered to make any suggestion...going either direction, in any situation that is adequately and correctly described...and be able to own it and own up to it. Been doing so for many years now without anyone who wasn't predisposed to doing so ever taking me to the Woodshed.

As such, most if not all will make their decisions based upon the input they get from me or others..

Now some might not feel comfortable going that route even after having read a quadrillion posts, and suffering through all the written verbiage that entails. Those individuals must either somehow seek a visual conformation, or just look elsewhere for their solutions. However in DIY we depend upon Peer reveiw and what illustrative images we can post....hoping that will suffice.

In your case, if you felt your input didn't hold any weight in this discussion, I don't think you'd have been moved to post. So why not elaborate on why your happy and let me settle back and maintain some decorum?

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post #24 of 31 Old 11-15-2019, 11:04 AM
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FolkArt metallic is usually sold in two different sizes though the larger size is somewhat rare. The more common 200ml/2oz containers typically cost $2 or $3 if you look for them online or call local art/craft shops. Folkart metallic can also be gotten direct from Plaidonline if local shops and other online retailers are unreasonably expensive.
https://plaidonline.com/products/fol...etal-gray-2-oz

A full 106"-diagonal 16:9 screen would need 9oz FolkartMetallic (plus 9oz matte waterbased poly and 9oz water) to paint it with this FolkArt mix. That means getting 5 of the little 2oz/200ml bottles through whichever shop or online shop offers the best price at a reasonable drive or shipping time/cost. If MississippiMan's mentioned 4eu+0.78tax is the best price available, that means enough paint for the entire screen would cost about 24eu.
Because the appropriate HVLP sprayer and matte poly are already part of the SilverFire requirements and buying extra isn't needed, that means you could just purchase a single tube or two of FolkArt for testing (there's plenty enough poly in a quart for 16oz in SilverFire and a several oz testing and another 9oz full screen painting if needed).

Instead of practicing with either mix itself though, it may be faster and helpful later on to buy a quart or 8oz tester of inexpensive gloss or high-gloss, white, water-based wall paint and thin that as 2parts paint and 1part water for spraying. This would give you something appropriate to practice with that you can find at any hardware store or many general stores, and the glossy paint finish will show surface imperfections and paint drips more visibly than flat/matte-finish would so you'll have an easier time seeing if something isn't going well to know if you need to adjust your spraying movement speed or overlap a little. Plus, once you've gotten a smooth white finish onto something (like the plywood you mentioned), you'll now have a perfect test surface for spraying a screen mix onto...since all of these sprayed mixes work best on a smooth, white surface.

Like mentioned earlier, I don't know whether or not you'll find the FolkartGunmetalGrey mix to have better uniformity/less-hotspotting than the Cinegrey3D. It should definitely lower the black levels and still have nicely bold colors, but this is why I'm only suggesting trying it first rather than telling you to jump in and paint over your screen.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #25 of 31 Old 11-15-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zzmac View Post
Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion but I've read in other threads that flat black paint that some people have used for walls etc.. rubs off on your hands or is hard to clean etc..


I'm painting the ceiling in my unfinished basement and yesterday I bought some Aqua Lock flat black paint from one of Benjamin Moore's Industrial stores. They recommended it because it's a flat black primer and will stick to anything and should alleviate some of the other issues with normal flat black paint. Just throwing that out there.

The solution of note has always been to never use a basic Flat latex...but to use a Paint heavy in Acrylic content such as is represented these days as a high quality Primer/Paint. Those types used to be, and still are labeled as "Interior Water Based Enamels" and being such, have surfaces that are not dusty, and that can be wiped with a slightly moistened cloth without damaging the finish.


More importantly for those using a Black for a Ceiling or Wall is that such higher acrylic paints produce a deeper shade of Black, one that appears less Dark Dusty Grey, and coverage for a given amount supplied is much more thorough.



Those type paints in Matte White are a primary component to use in any type Screen paint application....for all the previously stated reasons. Have been for many years on.

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post #26 of 31 Old 11-16-2019, 07:59 AM
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I just saw some pictures of your current hotspot problem, noob00224, and I'm a little worried there might be one of two issues hurting your current Cinegrey3D; one which can be fixed with paint (or even a second/luckier Cinegrey3D), or the other which might be more difficult to fix.
The goofy thing I'm seeing is that the hotspot appears to be very tall and narrow which is unusual, and that's why I suspect it might be one of two things other than the ALR screen.

1. That material (like the 5D and CarlsALR and the SI Slate0.8 and Slate1.3) is designed to have a lightly wider horizontal viewing-cone and narrower vertical viewing-cone..This is both good because a wide viewing-cone is much more useful than a tall/vertical viewing-cone, AND it's helpful because the projector's throw-ratio is naturally "longer" vertically than horizontally...not literally, of course, but in the sense that the screen is short and wide so a plain hotspot on a plain reflective screen (being round) will be more noticeable side-to-side than top-to-bottom. But the wider horizontal viewing-cone stretches the hotspot into a wider oval shape that makes it more subtle side-to-side.
HOWEVER, these materials come in large rolls from only a few suppliers (resold by the screen companies) and sometimes a clueless company will try to cut the fabric more efficiently to create less waste as they're sizing screens...AND THEY END UP MAKING THE VIEWING-CONE TALL AND NARROW. It ends up the exact opposite of what it was intended to be, hurting both the viewing-angles and the uniformity.
This means a paint could work a little better by default, or any screen material that's cut the right way from the roll.
To be clear, I've heard at least one company (not Elite) openly admit to doing this, at least partly out of ignorance for the way their own material works.
If this is what's affecting your screen, the bright colomn should move left/right (as a complete column) as you move left/right while keeping your height and distance roughly the same.

2. The scarier potential cause, the projector's own uniformity might be poor. This can be made worse by the ALR screen, but it'll tend to make ANY ALR screen look much worse than it normally would. It can be caused by the projector's own optic path being a little imperfect OR it can sometimes be caused by the lamp itself. If the uniformity is bad enough I expect you'd be able to see the slightly brighter white center column even when projecting directly onto the plain wall or a flat sheet. Plus, while the screen's main hotspot will move as you move around, a bright center/column caused by the projector uniformity itself would stay in one place. Even IF this is a problem, there's a chance that a new lamp or even simply re-seating the current lamp might fix or at least improve it.
This is also pretty easy to diagnose once you have somethings to look for (via a sheet or wall, and by moving and seeing if there's still some extra brightness in the center along with the brighter moving hotspot).

I'm kind of hoping for #1 though since it's most likely easier to solve.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #27 of 31 Old 11-16-2019, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I just saw some pictures of your current hotspot problem, noob00224, and I'm a little worried there might be one of two issues hurting your current Cinegrey3D; one which can be fixed with paint (or even a second/luckier Cinegrey3D), or the other which might be more difficult to fix.
The goofy thing I'm seeing is that the hotspot appears to be very tall and narrow which is unusual, and that's why I suspect it might be one of two things other than the ALR screen.

1. That material (like the 5D and CarlsALR and the SI Slate0.8 and Slate1.3) is designed to have a lightly wider horizontal viewing-cone and narrower vertical viewing-cone..This is both good because a wide viewing-cone is much more useful than a tall/vertical viewing-cone, AND it's helpful because the projector's throw-ratio is naturally "longer" vertically than horizontally...not literally, of course, but in the sense that the screen is short and wide so a plain hotspot on a plain reflective screen (being round) will be more noticeable side-to-side than top-to-bottom. But the wider horizontal viewing-cone stretches the hotspot into a wider oval shape that makes it more subtle side-to-side.
HOWEVER, these materials come in large rolls from only a few suppliers (resold by the screen companies) and sometimes a clueless company will try to cut the fabric more efficiently to create less waste as they're sizing screens...AND THEY END UP MAKING THE VIEWING-CONE TALL AND NARROW. It ends up the exact opposite of what it was intended to be, hurting both the viewing-angles and the uniformity.
This means a paint could work a little better by default, or any screen material that's cut the right way from the roll.
To be clear, I've heard at least one company (not Elite) openly admit to doing this, at least partly out of ignorance for the way their own material works.
If this is what's affecting your screen, the bright colomn should move left/right (as a complete column) as you move left/right while keeping your height and distance roughly the same.

2. The scarier potential cause, the projector's own uniformity might be poor. This can be made worse by the ALR screen, but it'll tend to make ANY ALR screen look much worse than it normally would. It can be caused by the projector's own optic path being a little imperfect OR it can sometimes be caused by the lamp itself. If the uniformity is bad enough I expect you'd be able to see the slightly brighter white center column even when projecting directly onto the plain wall or a flat sheet. Plus, while the screen's main hotspot will move as you move around, a bright center/column caused by the projector uniformity itself would stay in one place. Even IF this is a problem, there's a chance that a new lamp or even simply re-seating the current lamp might fix or at least improve it.
This is also pretty easy to diagnose once you have somethings to look for (via a sheet or wall, and by moving and seeing if there's still some extra brightness in the center along with the brighter moving hotspot).

I'm kind of hoping for #1 though since it's most likely easier to solve.
The lamp was recently changed, the hotspot is the same.
The hotspot follows as I move around, left, right, up, down.
The projector's uniformity is 73%.
Screen starts at 53cm/20.86", eye level 90cm/35.43", lens 192cm/75.59". 106" 16:9 screen.
Pictures with the white screen made out of blackout fabric and the ALR. It behaves strangely at an angle. Pictures taken at 120cm/47.12" height.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58659830

Last edited by noob00224; 11-16-2019 at 08:35 AM.
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post #28 of 31 Old 11-16-2019, 09:21 AM
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The lamp was recently changed, the hotspot is the same.
The hotspot follows as I move around, left, right, up, down.
The projector's uniformity is 73%.
Screen starts at 53cm/20.86", eye level 90cm/35.43", lens 192cm/75.59". 106" 16:9 screen.
Pictures with the white screen made out of blackout fabric and the ALR. It behaves strangely at an angle. Pictures taken at 120cm/47.12" height.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58659830
In what way is it behaving strangely at an angle (if you're able to describe it so we know what to look for...even if it might be obvious)?

Sounds like good news though...like the projector is performing as expected rather than doing something goofy and troublesome.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #29 of 31 Old 11-16-2019, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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In what way is it behaving strangely at an angle (if you're able to describe it so we know what to look for...even if it might be obvious)?

Sounds like good news though...like the projector is performing as expected rather than doing something goofy and troublesome.
The white fabric is brighter from the side than from the front.
Can't see it there but it also created some strange lines due to the weaving pattern. The weaving pattern is present on the rubbery back as well, to a lesser degree. Similar to moire effect.

Last edited by noob00224; 11-16-2019 at 09:51 AM.
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post #30 of 31 Old 11-16-2019, 12:41 PM
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I thought we had decided that material was going to be undesirable?

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