DIY 150'' Screen material and Paint suggestions needed for JVC NX5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
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DIY 150'' Screen material and Paint suggestions needed for JVC NX5

I've been thinking about upgrading from an Elite 120'' 1.1 16:9 gain screen to a larger 2.39 150'' screen. However, most commercial screens sold online are going to cost a fortune for similar aspect ratio and size. Fortunately, I found this sub section in avsforum and really interested in building one on my own (probably with assistant from friends).

I'll be projecting from ceiling roughly 17ft away from the screen. Projector calculator shows I'll be getting from 16~25 fL for 150'' with an 1.1 gain screen depending on the lamp mode. Reading some of the posts under this section, I found Carl's flexiwhite material with the combination of Silver Fire paint could give a very impression picture quality for the size. But before seeing any real demo or comparisons, I am a bit hesitant on doing the paint, as I've been hearing opinions that paint may harm peak brightness overall and for this projection distance, I'am already not getting optimal brightness for HDR (30fL) with the screen alone. Anyone happens to take comparison screenshots for plain surface v.s. paint applied projected by lower lumen projectors?

If brightness isn't an issue, I'd really like to apply paint to boost the contrast ratio. Also besides flexiwhite fabric, are there any other material that performs better with similar price tag or lost less (I'm really on budget)?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 08:18 AM
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Silver Fire will make it brighter and improve the contrast.
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post #3 of 18 Old 12-09-2019, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Is flexiwhite still the best material to buy for this size?
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post #4 of 18 Old 12-10-2019, 12:17 AM
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Looks like that JVS measures around 1100lm/1550lm Eco/full lamp. A 150"-diagonal 2.39:1 screen would divide that 1100/1550lm over a 75.5ftSquare area (you treat it like a 139"-wide 16:9 screen because the PJ still wastes light on the top/bottom bars even when they aren't used)...meaning about 14.5/20.5ftL on a 1.0gain screen.

I also believe you'll need at LEAST a 17.5ft throw-distance to fill a screen that size...so measuring your maximum throw-distance and posting what you find can help us know if you'll end up limited to a slightly smaller (but naturally brighter) screensize.


FlexiWhite is a great material both as-is and for painting..also great at this large size.



Alternatively, if you'd prefer to try avoiding painting, you could use Carls flexi ALR material which performs like more aggressive light-fighting paints (similar to the Elite CineGrey3D/5D and ScreenInnovation Slate1.3). It costs more than FlexiWhite but not a TON more. And if you make your frame to use ScreenTite spline (or bungees and clips) to hold the screen material without staples, this can potentially allow you to carefully flip the material over and paint the smooth back-side if you want to try something different without risking the important side. You could even paint it with a white or high-gain white mix to give yourself a bright white screen and an aggressive ALR screen.

You could also do something like this with FlexiWhite, but the back-side of Flexiwhite is black..which often needs a white coating first.

Not really a strong suggestion, just more a fun idea if you're on the fence and want to try a couple different things full-size without spending the money twice and without the trickier parts of painting since the ALR part of the screen comes already finished and painting with plain white paint is much easier.


The SilverFire mix (and any other light-fighting mix or most light-fighting screens) will get a little dimmer than a plain white screen the farther toward the sides you're seated..particularly on the side of the screen you're seated farther away from. The darker-colored the screen/mix despite its boosted gain, the better it'll be able to fight lights BUT the more it'll dim when viewed farther toward the sides...so you do have somewhat of a trade-off between your brightness and your light-fighting power depeding on where your seats are.

If you're mainly seated near the center and your projector's throw-distance is far enough, then most version of SilverFire (and many ALR screens) can look roughly as bright as a plain white screen.
If you want a screen to look noticeably brighter than a white screen when compared side-by-side, it may need to be both fairly light-colored AND around 1.5+gain.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 12-10-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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post #5 of 18 Old 12-14-2019, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info! Let me provide more info based on what you've posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Looks like that JVS measures around 1100lm/1550lm Eco/full lamp. A 150"-diagonal 2.39:1 screen would divide that 1100/1550lm over a 75.5ftSquare area (you treat it like a 139"-wide 16:9 screen because the PJ still wastes light on the top/bottom bars even when they aren't used)...meaning about 14.5/20.5ftL on a 1.0gain screen. I also believe you'll need at LEAST a 17.5ft throw-distance to fill a screen that size...so measuring your maximum throw-distance and posting what you find can help us know if you'll end up limited to a slightly smaller (but naturally brighter) screensize.
I tried both Jack Liu's and JVC's throw distance calculator and I am getting around 16ft minimum throw distance with max zoom. At this distance with zoomed 2.39 mode, I am at the ball park of 17 ftL with calibrated lumen (1260) on 1.0 gain screen. If SilverFire is able to bring 1.1/1.2 gain, that would be 18.7ftL/20.4 ftL, which I assume would be enough for SDR content. For HDR I'd need high lamp producing 28 ftL on 1.2 screen; a little less than ideal.

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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
FlexiWhite is a great material both as-is and for painting..also great at this large size.
On carl's website, the 2.39 aspect ratio doesn't have around 150'' option. It's jumping from 136'' to 222'' without intermediate options. Do you think getting 16:9 176'' size and cutting it to fit 2.39:1 would suffice?

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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Alternatively, if you'd prefer to try avoiding painting, you could use Carls flexi ALR material which performs like more aggressive light-fighting paints.
I saw some comments about Carl's ALR being producing a lot darker image despite it's rated high gain.Given that my projector is not a light cannon, I'd pass on this. Or is there anything I am missing about this material? Anyone has used this with a JVC nx5+ model and got good experience?

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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
You could also do something like this with FlexiWhite, but the back-side of Flexiwhite is black..which often needs a white coating first.
Why would I need a white coating? [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The SilverFire mix (and any other light-fighting mix or most light-fighting screens) will get a little dimmer than a plain white screen the farther toward the sides you're seated
I sit roughly 10ft away from the screen. But that's adjustable depending on perceived brightness.
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post #6 of 18 Old 12-16-2019, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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As for the paint mix, I've decided to try out the Silver Fire v2.5 2.0 paint. I re-read some of the silver fire 2.5 thread and concluded the following:

For 150'' 2.40:1 screen size, with JVC NX5 as the projector, 2.0 oz colorant seems to be reasonable. And I need approx. 4 quarts of mixed paint to cover the entire area.

The front page suggest I need to do the following:

32oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl
16oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver
10oz -- PPG Diamond Flat

16oz -- Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish (water based)
24oz -- distilled water

2oz -- Colorant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100oz -> 3.125 quarts

3.125 AFAIK is barely enough to paint 150'' screen, so I could do 2 things now.

1) Linearly scale each component by a factor of 1.28x in the listing above so that the final mix totals 4 quarts - 128oz
e.g:
32oz White Pearl becomes 32oz * 1.28 ~= 41oz


2) Following @MississippiMan 's suggestions to Trogloraptor, whose screen happens to be a little larger than mine.
32oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl
16oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver
32oz -- PPG Diamond Flat

32oz -- Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish (water based)
24oz -- distilled water

2oz -- Colorant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
132oz


The bolded red oz is the mark the change that made to the formula posted in the front page.


To be honest, I don't completely understand the 2) approach, as it changes the ratio of each paint mix in the formula. How can it look the same? But if there's justification, I'm willing to go the 2nd approach, simply because these paint are usually sold in 32oz per can; thus I don't need to buy extra paint.
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post #7 of 18 Old 12-16-2019, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonBa View Post
As for the paint mix, I've decided to try out the Silver Fire v2.5 2.0 paint. I re-read some of the silver fire 2.5 thread and concluded the following:

For 150'' 2.40:1 screen size, with JVC NX5 as the projector, 2.0 oz colorant seems to be reasonable. And I need approx. 4 quarts of mixed paint to cover the entire area.

The front page suggest I need to do the following:

32oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl
16oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver
10oz -- PPG Diamond Flat

16oz -- Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish (water based)
24oz -- distilled water

2oz -- Colorant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100oz -> 3.125 quarts

3.125 AFAIK is barely enough to paint 150'' screen, so I could do 2 things now.

1) Linearly scale each component by a factor of 1.28x in the listing above so that the final mix totals 4 quarts - 128oz
e.g:
32oz White Pearl becomes 32oz * 1.28 ~= 41oz

(...this would significantly increase the cost by requiring the purchase of another quart just to add 9 oz more Pearl)

Using the right HVLP Gun and Tip, and following the correct application procedure, you can spray 150" with 3 quarts...but you would have virtually nothing left over let alone to correct any mistake. Scaling the mix up to a larger amount is an option though.....



2) Following @MississippiMan 's suggestions to Trogloraptor, whose screen happens to be a little larger than mine.
32oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl
16oz -- Rustoleum Metallic Accents Sterling Silver
24oz -- PPG Diamond Flat

32oz -- Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish (water based)
20oz -- distilled water

2oz -- Colorant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
132oz


The bolded red oz is the mark the change that made to the formula posted in the front page.

To be honest, I don't completely understand the 2) approach, as it changes the ratio of each paint mix in the formula. How can it look the same? But if there's justification, I'm willing to go the 2nd approach, simply because these paint are usually sold in 32oz per can; thus I don't need to buy extra paint.
The change was intended to both add content amount as well as alter the appearance and the specific performance parameters.

Use the table I edited above in Blue

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post #8 of 18 Old 12-16-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonBa View Post
On carl's website, the 2.39 aspect ratio doesn't have around 150'' option. It's jumping from 136'' to 222'' without intermediate options. Do you think getting 16:9 176'' size and cutting it to fit 2.39:1 would suffice?

I saw some comments about Carl's ALR being producing a lot darker image despite it's rated high gain.Given that my projector is not a light cannon, I'd pass on this. Or is there anything I am missing about this material? Anyone has used this with a JVC nx5+ model and got good experience?

Why would I need a white coating?
I believe ordering a 176" 16:9 size and cutting it down should work well. That should still leave you with more than 6inches of extra on each side, which will help when pulling the material around the frame edge to attach at the back of the frame.

Carls ALR should be plenty for SDR content with your overhead placement, naturally 1.5:1+ throw-ratio and solid brightness at nice-looking presets (VS some projectors which become very dim by the time you switch over to a watchable preset)...but it's not going to look brighter than a white/1.0gain screen, so HDR is still likely to suffer.

Many of the thinner or more translucent paints want a white underlying surface in order to look and perform their best, for example; the FolkArt metallic and matte waterbased poly mixes I often recommend for sprayed screens is both fairly translucent (it uses a lot of clear poly) and it's applied pretty thinly. Every sprayed mix is applied pretty thinly and SilverFire also uses at least a little clear poly.


As a side-note, I believe 3quarts of mix should be more than enough for spraying a roughly 140"x60" (about 58ft-square) area. If you've done any room painting..did it take 3quarts to paint an 8ft x 8ft section of wall? The screen is a little smaller than that and rolling typically wastes more paint than spraying (unless your sprayer is a messy hog).

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

Last edited by Ftoast; 12-16-2019 at 01:53 PM.
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post #9 of 18 Old 12-16-2019, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The change was intended to both add content amount as well as alter the appearance and the specific performance parameters.

Use the table I edited above in Blue
Just to make sure. 24oz -- PPG Diamond Flat and 32oz -- Rustoleum's Ultimate Polyurethane Matte Finish, correct?
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Quote:
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... as well as alter the appearance and the specific performance parameters.
What are these parameters tuned for? Is it specifically tuned for high contrast projectors? or just screen size?

Also, thanks a lot for the suggestions!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
As a side-note, I believe 3quarts of mix should be more than enough for spraying a roughly 140"x60" (about 58ft-square) area. If you've done any room painting..did it take 3quarts to paint an 8ft x 8ft section of wall? The screen is a little smaller than that and rolling typically wastes more paint than spraying (unless your sprayer is a messy hog).
I've never done any kinds of sprays before. This is the very first time I'm doing this sort of diy project.
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Another question. The sprayer I've bought is Earlex HV3500 Spray Station HVLP Sprayer, which was mentioned in one of the silver fire posts.
Amazon page shows the pressure it generates is only 43 cfm / 2 psi, DIN/second = 160. But I've also seen in some posts mentioning for this kind of spray work, I need roughly 40psi pressure. I am confused. Did I get the wrong model? Or is Amazon description inaccurate?
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Quote:
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Another question. The sprayer I've bought is Earlex HV3500 Spray Station HVLP Sprayer, which was mentioned in one of the silver fire posts.
Amazon page shows the pressure it generates is only 43 cfm / 2 psi, DIN/second = 160. But I've also seen in some posts mentioning for this kind of spray work, I need roughly 40psi pressure. I am confused. Did I get the wrong model? Or is Amazon description inaccurate?

The HV3500 is perfectly acceptable. Did you make note that the size Needle / Nozzle should be at most 1.5mm and the best being 1.0 mm? The needle kit is sold separately.



The 40 psi your referring to was a setting at the HVLP Gun's regulator....on a system that uses a separate Compressed Air Tank.



Performance parameters refer to the grey shading of a given mix as well as the amount / ratios of Metallic and White content. There are numerous ways to alter a Mix, dependent upon needs, desires, and application.


And.........don't worry about being new to spraying. When one uses the Duster method properly, it is almost impossible to muck up. Coats are applied very rapidly, and each subsequent Horizontal Row overlaps the previous row by 60%.

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post #14 of 18 Old 12-17-2019, 09:34 AM
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Just a heads-up for both OP and Mississippi, the doubling amount of poly and more than doubling of matte-white while leaving the metallic amounts and colorant amount the same will result in the mix being roughly 1/2shade lighter-colored while losing about 0.3gain. The amount of water was also lessened from 24oz to 20oz while paint and poly amount was increased by 30oz..creating a thicker mix as well (not sure if this was intentional for this situation or not).


If you'd prefer to keep gain and shading more similar to the original mix, increasing the Rustoleum Silver amount of that customized version will both increase gain and slightly darken the color of the mix. The amount of water might also be increased a few oz if this mix needs to stay as thin as the original..though that can depend on the gun/needle/tip you end up using.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Quote:
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The HV3500 is perfectly acceptable. Did you make note that the size Needle / Nozzle should be at most 1.5mm and the best being 1.0 mm? The needle kit is sold separately.



The 40 psi your referring to was a setting at the HVLP Gun's regulator....on a system that uses a separate Compressed Air Tank.



Performance parameters refer to the grey shading of a given mix as well as the amount / ratios of Metallic and White content. There are numerous ways to alter a Mix, dependent upon needs, desires, and application.


And.........don't worry about being new to spraying. When one uses the Duster method properly, it is almost impossible to muck up. Coats are applied very rapidly, and each subsequent Horizontal Row overlaps the previous row by 60%.
Yes, I got the 1.0mm tip separately for HV3500. I don't know if the tip is compatible with the recommended model 2901 though.
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Quote:
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Just a heads-up for both OP and Mississippi, the doubling amount of poly and more than doubling of matte-white while leaving the metallic amounts and colorant amount the same will result in the mix being roughly 1/2shade lighter-colored while losing about 0.3gain. The amount of water was also lessened from 24oz to 20oz while paint and poly amount was increased by 30oz..creating a thicker mix as well (not sure if this was intentional for this situation or not).


If you'd prefer to keep gain and shading more similar to the original mix, increasing the Rustoleum Silver amount of that customized version will both increase gain and slightly darken the color of the mix. The amount of water might also be increased a few oz if this mix needs to stay as thin as the original..though that can depend on the gun/needle/tip you end up using.
Ahh. I definitely don't want to lose any gain at this point, since it's already not optimal for HDR content, unless I got an anamorphic lens. 0.3 gain lost is very significant. How did you measure the light reflected off the screen? I tried to use a light meter facing the screen, but all I get is a few lux. I've only get reasonable numbers when the sensor is facing the projector. But that'll not capture the screen gain.
Also, would there be any side effect of increasing Silver amount to compensate the thicker poly?
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Quote:
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Ahh. I definitely don't want to lose any gain at this point, since it's already not optimal for HDR content, unless I got an anamorphic lens. 0.3 gain lost is very significant. How did you measure the light reflected off the screen? I tried to use a light meter facing the screen, but all I get is a few lux. I've only get reasonable numbers when the sensor is facing the projector. But that'll not capture the screen gain.
Also, would there be any side effect of increasing Silver amount to compensate the thicker poly?
I made a bunch of comparison surfaces using shades of flat-grey with known gain to compare side-by-side different screens and mixes. I also found that cutting the amount of metallic in a mix (or doubling the amount of standard pigmented, flat/matte paint) almost always lowers the metallic gain by about 0.3 compared to the same mix using twice as much of the same metallic (or half as much matte paint).

Were you using a light-meter from a telephone app or a very inexpensive general model from amazon? I think you might need a pretty specific style of meter for the best results of measuring screen gain..one with a very narrow field of view (I'm not sure if that's the proper wording, but it's like the difference between a cardoid pattern microphone and a shotgun mic, or a floodlight and a narrow spotlight..in reverse). These kinds pick up a lot of light from a small area even at a respectable distance from the screen, plus they're more sensitive to the screen's brightness differences from different angles (which makes them better at measuring off-axis dimming of a screen).

Just to be clear, I don't think the larger amount of poly will change the gain much, but the large increase in matte-white paint can lower the metallic gain noticeably.
Increasing the amount of metallic Silver will slightly darken the mix color which will help it fight off-axis lights/reflections better BUT also will cause the screen to dim slightly more than a lighter-colored screen of similar gain when viewed farther off-center. Also the added gain itself naturally makes the screen more picky about the surface and paintjob being really smooth because higher and higher gain can make subtle texture show more and more noticeably (usually looking like a slight sparkling or grainy-ness on a slightly textured surface).
Skipping the 2oz colorant can lighten the mix color if you prefer slightly higher off-center brightness in exchange for slightly weaker light-fighting ability, so that's a pretty easy way to get around the darker color from the extra silver.
The screen being picky about the surface and paintjob being smooth is a natural part of any high-gain screen though, so that's why you'll be spraying instead of rolling and why you'll be making sure the surface is smooth before painting the screen mix.

I also suggest waiting to hear what mississippi says about increasing the silver amount (and cutting out the 2oz colorant) to compensate for the much larger amount of matte-white. I'll disagree with him if he thinks the poly will stop the extra matte-white from taming the metallic gain down, but he and PB are the authors of the SilverFire thread, so they get the final say...even if I think it's incorrect.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Quote:
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Were you using a light-meter from a telephone app or a very inexpensive general model from amazon? I think you might need a pretty specific style of meter for the best results of measuring screen gain..one with a very narrow field of view (I'm not sure if that's the proper wording, but it's like the difference between a cardoid pattern microphone and a shotgun mic, or a floodlight and a narrow spotlight..in reverse). These kinds pick up a lot of light from a small area even at a respectable distance from the screen, plus they're more sensitive to the screen's brightness differences from different angles (which makes them better at measuring off-axis dimming of a screen).
I've got a Extech 407026 Heavy Duty Light Meter, which is supposed to give accurate readings. But I am not sure if it should be used in non-direct light measurement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Just to be clear, I don't think the larger amount of poly will change the gain much, but the large increase in matte-white paint can lower the metallic gain noticeably.
Increasing the amount of metallic Silver will slightly darken the mix color which will help it fight off-axis lights/reflections better BUT also will cause the screen to dim slightly more than a lighter-colored screen of similar gain when viewed farther off-center. Also the added gain itself naturally makes the screen more picky about the surface and paintjob being really smooth because higher and higher gain can make subtle texture show more and more noticeably (usually looking like a slight sparkling or grainy-ness on a slightly textured surface).
Skipping the 2oz colorant can lighten the mix color if you prefer slightly higher off-center brightness in exchange for slightly weaker light-fighting ability, so that's a pretty easy way to get around the darker color from the extra silver.
The screen being picky about the surface and paintjob being smooth is a natural part of any high-gain screen though, so that's why you'll be spraying instead of rolling and why you'll be making sure the surface is smooth before painting the screen mix.

I also suggest waiting to hear what mississippi says about increasing the silver amount (and cutting out the 2oz colorant) to compensate for the much larger amount of matte-white. I'll disagree with him if he thinks the poly will stop the extra matte-white from taming the metallic gain down, but he and PB are the authors of the SilverFire thread, so they get the final say...even if I think it's incorrect.
@MississippiMan What do you think about the concentration change v.s. gain loss? I'll start this project approx next weekend so I'd lie to hear all the opinions and get well informed.
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