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-   -   Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/741080-grays-simple-one-can-paints-one-very-neutral.html)

schooner2000 11-11-2006 03:13 AM

I'd like to know how it performs without a top coat as well, jsut for comparison purposes if you can ge ta chance. Should be interesting to see how it turns out. Too bad it is only by the gallon though.

Patrick Mckowen 11-11-2006 06:33 AM

Hey wb

I to am very interested in your results. I will more then likely go with a painted solution as I do not think a built laminate screen will offer me the size I want -won't be sure until I have the projector up and running.

?? -- are you just painting a wall or some type of hung panel.

I was going to paint a wall -- having the drywall guy giving it a special effort to make it absolute flat and pit free.

Regards
Patrick

wbassett 11-11-2006 12:25 PM

Here are the first shots. Now, keep in mind the paint is still wet and looks blotchy because it's starting to dry and some areas are still wet. Also this is the first coat. After it dries I may hit it lightly with a 3M sanding sponge, I'll have to see if there is any imperfections when it's fully dry.

This is a shot with the first coat on, still drying as I mentioned. The paint looks pretty light in the container, but when I started putting it up it is the darkest gray I have used to date.


The next shot isn't anything fancy as far as a screen image or test pattern or anything like that. It's just the HD931's welcome screen. This is at 2:45 PM and I have tons of light issues during the day as anyone that knows me is aware.


Just for comparisons, I pulled the picture of the initial screen size test on just the liner paper.


This one is from the doorway to the room. You can see the one window to the right of the screen, and to the left is a bay window that is around 6' wide and the windows themselves are a little over 6' high... lots of windows and light problems. I put the menu up to see if I could even read it during the day...


This one is from the doorway with the welcome screen up.

Here is a comparison shot on just the liner paper from the same angle. Both of these shots were around the same time of day so they are similar settings. I wish I would have taken some of the screen on these angles and with the same image when UPW was up. I can go back and do it with DW when I put that screen back up, so this will be an interesting test/comparison.

Like I said and I want to emphasize... this is the first coat and the screen is still wet so these are not going to be very good representations of what it will look like when it has a couple of good coats up and it's totally dry. (If anyone is curious, my temporary border is nothing more than 3M painter's tape... I looked for black hockey tape but couldn't find any...)

Also it was requested to show how it looks before any top coating is applied, so when I get the second coat up and it's dry I will take some better shots with some test patterns and screen images. So far I think it is looking very promising. especially being a one can solution.

Bill

wbassett 11-11-2006 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Mckowen View Post

Hey wb

I to am very interested in your results. I will more then likely go with a painted solution as I do not think a built laminate screen will offer me the size I want -won't be sure until I have the projector up and running.

?? -- are you just painting a wall or some type of hung panel.

I was going to paint a wall -- having the drywall guy giving it a special effort to make it absolute flat and pit free.

Regards
Patrick

Patrick this is pretty much what started the whole laminate thread... I couldn't find any substrates in the size I needed. My walls aren't sheetrock either, and not smooth. They look fine as a wall, but just wouldn't work as a screen.

I put up liner paper and then put a skim coat of mud up. The liner paper covered any cracks and imperfections in the wall, and the skim coat smoothed out any uneven areas. It actually came out as a nice screen. Now I use it for a 'canvas' of sorts... I've been putting various colors up and use it as a big full size test panel since it doesn't matter... it's not my primary screen.

Patrick Mckowen 11-11-2006 01:28 PM

WB -- looking good so far -- I was very impressed based on the ambient light -- I think its going to be very good when all done -- cant wait to see the final.

Patrick

wbassett 11-11-2006 01:53 PM

Yeah Patrick I think it's showing a lot of promise, especially for being right off the shelf.

I have the second coat up and that's all for today, I lost too much light and without painter's lights I'll end up missing areas if I try another coat later. Besides, I don't think I need a third coat, but I'll decide that tomorrow.

I like these plastic gallon buckets it comes in... the top screws on and off and there is a built in pour spout so there is virtually no mess, and that's one thing I don't like about painting is it can be messy.

I really want to get this analysed. When I was stirring, it looked like there were some particles in the paint, maybe mica or something, I really don't know. I have no idea if I was just seeing things, and if not if they are for the matte finish or that's what makes this a washable paint. It is looking nice so far though.

As far as all the light and the image, I wouldn't make any judgements yet, that was only the menu and welcome screen... the true test will be for light scenes. Tomorrow I'll see if they wash out. Keep in mind I have some window film up (I still need to put it on the upper half of the windows) and I am also pounding the screen with upwards of 29fL of light from the projector, which is a fair amount of light. I'm sure it's a little less than what the calculator is saying, but it's still above the 20fL mark I'm sure. That makes as much of a difference with lighting as the screen. With Designer White we could actually have a lamp on and play cards while a movie was playing. It did take a little performance hit, but nowhere near what I expected, and that was with a white screen.

wbassett 11-11-2006 04:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I was comparing a few paint cards at Home Depot and found two grays that I thought looked very neutral. They are both Behr shades, "Sterling" 780E-3, and Behr "Quietude" 770E-1. Both of these have a very slight hint of green when compared to Silverscreen but not quite as green as the Wispy Gray. The "Sterling" being closest in lightness to my NG. The "Quietude" looks like a nice step between the "Sterling" and white.

I'm sure I have seen someone post that they used "Quietude" and I was wondering if anyone could comment on these Behr gray tints.

lol yeah someone else was asking me what the hell I was doing with paints! I started with a painted screen... well actually I started 12/13 years ago with a canvas screen for a CRT projector... but this time around my first screen was paint... laminates came later.

I still think paint is a very viable option to many. Also working with these darker shades of gray allows me to test the limits of my projector before going out and buying sheets of the darker laminates like Platinum and Dove Grey. I am also playing with top coatings for both laminates and these paints, and quite frankly paint is less expensive to experiment with. I'll get the same testing and data, so it should be something that is useable in both areas... at least I hope. ... and maybe we'll even find a nice one can solution out of this... Gray Screen is looking very nice.

As far as Behr, I have no personal dislike of their paint. It was a simple matter that they chose not to have their paint's spectro data included in the database with other manufacturers. So Behr very well could have some neutrals, but to me looking at endless color cards didn't yeild anything until after they were tested anyway. This way I was able to sort and view colors and eliminate many right away because there was spectro data already provided.

Tiddler I think if you had a sample of this, you may like it. Maybe not as a mix component or anything, but I think you would stand behind it as a very nice darker one can alternative... it really is looking that nice...

Someone else is using Quietude and likes it a lot, so that one has made it up on the wall for some real world testing.

wbassett 11-11-2006 06:35 PM

I did a real quick basic calibration. I have to work at 6AM for a few hours so I'll be crashing soon and can't play around with screen shots anymore tonight. I also have to do some reading on my camera and setting the manual setup. I can literally see the LCD 'blink' when I slightly move the camera and it auto adjusts the brightness and contrast. I want it shoot whatever is up there without the camera compensating, so hopefully tomorrow I can see if I can finally get this figured out.

What looks like distortion in the bottom right blue square is a watermark THX calibration statement.

Quick note: One of the calibrations in the above screen is to make sure that the blue boxes in the lower left of the screen are two distinct shades of blue. When I was using SS, I could not get the boxes to look different shades. This time before I even started the quick calibration the blues were different shades. Actually, I didn't have to make many adjustments at all from my previous setting, but again this was a real quick 3-5 minute rough calibration.



Straight on


From the door


... nothing was edited in any of the pictures, not even to resize them.

I'll play around tomorrow with my camera settings and do some day shots in the afternoon, and then tomorrow night I'll do some nice night shots.

I think I am going to do a little more thinking and research before starting the top coat. Plus I want to give this a few days to fully dry and then check it before doing anything else to it.

Patrick Mckowen 11-11-2006 08:10 PM

Well I am really injoying this -- it is looking very good -- my only worry is that it will turn out nice and I will not be able to find the paint.

wbassett 11-11-2006 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Mckowen View Post

Well I am really injoying this -- it is looking very good -- my only worry is that it will turn out nice and I will not be able to find the paint.

There are 10 stores listed in Ontario. I have no idea what the distances from you would be... Canada is a big country. Sherwin Williams does have a store locator though and they specifically have Canadian Provinces listed.

Patrick Mckowen 11-12-2006 07:06 PM

found one just up the road -- 4.3 miles

wbassett 11-12-2006 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Mckowen View Post

found one just up the road -- 4.3 miles



I ended up working 8 hours today... been a long week and I crashed so I haven't done anything today. I'll get it cleaned up and get a temporary border frame up tomorrow and get some picture. This is a REAL ugly gray paint! Which is good because a true neutral gray is an aweful looking color, and this definitely isn't something I would paint my house with that's for sure. I'm wondering if they 'unofficially' joined the pained screen market... wouldn't paint my wall this color but it sure makes a nice screen

Topher 11-13-2006 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I'm sure I have seen someone post that they used "Quietude" and I was wondering if anyone could comment on these Behr gray tints.

I'm using Quietude for a 121" screen. I was worried that Silver Screen would be too dark & deaden the colours. My pj's a Hitachi PJ-TX100 with about 950 hours on the bulb.
I'm pretty happy with it. There are 7 halogen pot lights in the room, 3 at the back & then 2 rows of 2, & I can have the back 3 on about 50% & the rest at about 10% & still get a respectable picture. You can see my room at
hxxp://www.webshots.com/search?query=author%3Atopher5000
It's a little different now but I haven't updated the pics in a while.
I was going to repaint with SW Gray Screen, but I'm going to try a topcoat of Behr flat poly first. I'll take some more pics when that's done.

wbassett 11-13-2006 09:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher View Post

I'm using Quietude for a 121" screen. I was worried that Silver Screen would be too dark & deaden the colours. My pj's a Hitachi PJ-TX100 with about 950 hours on the bulb.
I'm pretty happy with it. There are 7 halogen pot lights in the room, 3 at the back & then 2 rows of 2, & I can have the back 3 on about 50% & the rest at about 10% & still get a respectable picture. You can see my room at
hxxp://www.webshots.com/search?query=author%3Atopher5000
It's a little different now but I haven't updated the pics in a while.
I was going to repaint with SW Gray Screen, but I'm going to try a topcoat of Behr flat poly first. I'll take some more pics when that's done.

I don't think SilverScreen would deaden the colors as much as skew them. That isn't meant as a slam on SS-- to those that use it and can get the image adjusted in, great... but not everyone can.

Neutral gray really was an eye opener for me. I am still amazed at how dark the screen is and yet my whites are still white and other than adjusting my brightness and contrast some for my 'quick calibration' I didn't touch the color setting and the picture still looks great.

I have 1700 lumens, so we know it will work with projectors having the same lumen output or higher, now the question and test is how low can we go in lumens before we start losing image quality and things start to get dull and muddy. That would be the lumen level I would say is where a Munsell N9 gray would be a viable option. Projectors that can't handle a Munsell N9 shade are pretty much relegated to a matte white since Munsell N10 is white.

I will be getting some GTI N7 and N8. We can actually color match those and get a mix formula that should be able to be made at any good paint shop. I plan on doing some testing with the N7 shade to see if my projector will work with that dark of a screen, but I think N7 would be the darkest for my projector. Then again I was pretty surprised with the color I have up right now.

N6 is going to take a a stronger lumen projector than what I have, I am pretty sure of that, and anything N5 or lower is going to need a legitimate light cannon.

wbassett 11-13-2006 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Wbassett,

Did SW put a mix sticker on your Gray Screen container.

I completely forgot you asked about that, sorry it was a very long week.

BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

Maybe someone can use that for the mix, but keep in mind this is also a matte finish so some other paint company would only be able to do this in a flat, eggshell, satin, or gloss (but everyone knows not to use the last two, and eggshell is very questionable as well). There are definitely specs of something in the paint, and no I really don't think they are ground up gnats There are small black specs, and it looks like maybe white specs or flecks of something. What they are, I have no idea.

schooner2000 11-13-2006 12:57 PM

Where's the pics!! :-)

prof55 11-13-2006 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

I completely forgot you asked about that, sorry it was a very long week.

BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

There's a rather interesting co-development taking place here - Tiddler settled on a mix containing Folkart Black and Yellow Ochre.

Looks like you guys are getting a good handle on what a gray should be!

Garry

wbassett 11-13-2006 01:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by schooner2000 View Post

Where's the pics!! :-)

If you mean the ones I was going to try to do Sunday... I ended up working 7-8 hours which made last week a 7 day work week as well as doing the screen Saturday... I crashed Sunday and didn't do a damn thing!

wbassett 11-13-2006 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

... My Folkart Pure Black + Yellow Ochre looks slightly green next to some grays and not so much next to Wispy Gray...

... and as we know that slight green look is exactly what we want. It means it is a real neutral gray, and like you said not a pleasing color that someone would paint their wall or trim with. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't paint any room or trim this color... bleech...

Topher 11-13-2006 03:31 PM

My gallon of Quietude is:
Ultra Pure White
Colorant 0Z 48 96
B Lamp Black 0 4 0
L Raw Umber 0 2 0
Do you know what the part number is for Behr Flat Poly? I couldn't find any in my local Home Depot (near Niagara Falls Canada) & when I asked, they said they didn't have any.

wbassett 11-13-2006 10:26 PM

Do we have any spectro values and RGB numbers on Quietude and Wispy as well as some of the others being mentioned? I want to keep this thread to neutrals... a point or two off doesn't concern me as much as if all three RGB values varied. I just don't want this to turn into a thread of a thousand grays and have people throw up their hands in frustration because there are too many and it is confusing-- then leave the thread and go to something else without even giving some of the original colors identified a chance.

What I would like to do is identify a couple off the shelf brands and colors that are spectro tested and match each of the Munsell shades. We can also probably duplicate the GTI N7 and N8 mixes and provide people with a formula they can take to their local paint shop and whip up a batch. I wouldn't call this a 'mix', it would be an actual formula that the paint store makes... so in essence it would basically be the same as an 'off the shelf' concept. The next thing I would like to do is start identifying lumen ratings and come up with a gray scale that shows what grays are best suited for specific lumen ranges.

Right now there are definitely two N8's... GTI and SW 7071 Gray Screen. Winter Mountain from True Value is also an N8 and very neutral at 200 201 201-- those are the type matches I am looking for.

N7 is only the GTI mix so far. I haven't been able to color match it with anything in the database. This is where I hope Glidden and Behr can come in and fill the gap. If not then we'll just have to get some GTI N7 and make have a formula made.

N9 has several that need field testing as screens or test panels, and Smokey found an online site that has a lot of potential colors across the Munsell scale. So we have three Munsell grays nailed down already.

I hope nobody took that the wrong way. I really like seeing people participating and taking interest in this thread, and I hope people understand what I am trying to do as well as not do... I want this to be a thread for neutral grays and be as easy as possible but make sure all the grays are verified and tested as neutral. After that we can possibly work on some 'step grays... grays between the Munsell colors. Finally the lumen chart to pull everything togther and make this easy and of some value to anyone interested.

prof55 11-13-2006 10:51 PM

Even though most paint manufacturers have an amazingly broad line of colors, the kind of gray we are looking for is not well represented - mainly because it's rather ugly!

But it appears a very useful mix can be made from titanium dioxide white, lampblack, and yellow oxide. It should be possible to come up with formulas for various gray shades (maybe N7 through N9?) using just these ingredients that will be fairly universal between paint manufacturers.

Todd: I couldn't find PY43 in Liquitex, but I did pick up PY42, which I believe is equivalent. I'll mix up some tests tomorrow!

Garry

Topher 11-14-2006 06:14 AM

I was hoping that the mixture would help with the rgb values.
How do we get the rgb values? Is this something a layman can do? What happens when a paint store colour matches?

wbassett 11-14-2006 07:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

RGB values are measured with an instrument (I forget the name of it). Right now there are two people with these devices that I know of, prof55, and rfisher.

The database that wbassett is using has RGB values for various tints in some manufacturer's paints. Unfortunately the more common Behr and Glidden paints are not included in the database.

Yeah I wish they were included too. It's not that they were excluded, rather they chose not to have their spectro data listed.

Topher 11-14-2006 08:07 AM

One thing I've been pondering is if a neutral grey is really necessary, since most, if not all, projectors have colour temperature adjustments. Is it just so there's a good starting place? If the paint's close to neutral, wouldn't that be good enough? You should be calibrating your pj anyways, so wouldn't this correct any slight differences? Or would this only be corrected with professional calibration?

Edit: Sorry, wbassett. It's hard to keep on topic unless I actually think about the first post or two. I'll keep my posts to minimum or start a new thread.

bud16415 11-14-2006 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

This thread is starting to get way off track.

This is about neutral gray paints... off the shelf paints that have data showing their match to the Munsell system of grays. As far as I can tell this is the first thread relating grays to the Munsell system along with specs and data to prove the match.

I have not seen any of the paints I listed or any of the data I provided in any previous threads, so I don't see this as reinventing anything. This is NOT a mix thread and was never intended to be one. I have no problem with getting a formula from the GTI N7 and N8 where anyone can take it in to a good paint shop, hand it to them and walk out ten minutes later with a can of neutral gray in the Munsell N7-N9 range. That would be a very good thing, but I don't call that a custom DIY mix, not in the sense of any of the paint mixes in the forum. It's a one can off the shelf, but you provide the formula for them to make.

I also see no problem recommending the grays I listed at the beginning of this thread. I have identified extremely neutral grays, and have one up right now as a test screen. Wispy, Quietude, and some of the others may be great paints, but I haven't seen any data or testing on them to show how neutral they are. If they test out and are neutral they will have their place here in my opinion.

If I am understanding this right, I identified off the shelf neutral grays that are readily available, and people are wanting to say don't use them and create a mix to make the same color... am I missing something here?

Sorry for the offending post. I thought I read a few days ago you were glad to see more people participating and the new directions the thread was taking within the realm of making a better neutral gray mix. I know you were looking into all named paints and trying to find close matches to the Munsell numbered neutrals.

I didn't hear any dismay when Tiddler or proff55 were making suggestions over the last few days as to what goes into a true neutral so I assumed you were ok with the direction the talks were going.

I will remove my offending post and sorry for getting off topic. I'll move it over to the neutral gray mix thread I started and anyone that wants to discuss the merits of yellow oxide LB gray can do it over there.

In the nature of keeping this post on topic have you thought about subdividing the Munsell's into a finer subset. Munsell went from white to black and really in screen applications maybe only 5% of the full Munsell would ever be used.

Once again sorry for leading things astray.

prof55 11-14-2006 09:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

This thread is starting to get way off track.

This is about neutral gray paints... off the shelf paints that have data showing their match to the Munsell system of grays. As far as I can tell this is the first thread relating grays to the Munsell system along with specs and data to prove the match.

I have not seen any of the paints I listed or any of the data I provided in any previous threads, so I don't see this as reinventing anything. This is NOT a mix thread and was never intended to be one. I have no problem with getting a formula from the GTI N7 and N8 where anyone can take it in to a good paint shop, hand it to them and walk out ten minutes later with a can of neutral gray in the Munsell N7-N9 range. That would be a very good thing, but I don't call that a custom DIY mix, not in the sense of any of the paint mixes in the forum. It's a one can off the shelf, but you provide the formula for them to make.

I also see no problem recommending the grays I listed at the beginning of this thread. I have identified extremely neutral grays, and have one up right now as a test screen. Wispy, Quietude, and some of the others may be great paints, but I haven't seen any data or testing on them to show how neutral they are. If they test out and are neutral they will have their place here in my opinion.

If I am understanding this right, I identified off the shelf neutral grays that are readily available, and people are wanting to say don't use them and create a mix to make the same color... am I missing something here?

You're right, there is a definite demand for "off the shelf" colors that will work. The popularity of Silverscreen is a testimony to the fact that many would like to just walk in, get a stock color, and walk out. And there are quite a few stock colors that come very close to neutral. A list of them will prove very useful to many.

I'm guilty of diverging from the topic, and I apologize. I'm thinking ahead here, perhaps to "level 2 DIY" when I speak of a universal mix system, and I appreciate you pointing it out. The vast majority of new DIY'ers would benefit from the "stock colors" list, and I tend to forget that not everyone is comfortable with having the guys at Home Depot look at them like they're nuts

The only problem I'm seeing (and this is why I diverged) is that the stock colors are DECORATOR colors, and as such they tend to avoid true neutral like the plague for the simple fact that it is rather ugly in a "decorator" context. Several paint companies (Behr included) have color palettes that include virtually every color BUT neutrals. Lots of grays, but all have a slight intentional push toward red, green or blue - just enough to make a pleasant blend with accent colors. Because of this, I believe your list of colors will be short, but I definitely applaud your effort. This will be a very useful list.

Garry

wbassett 11-14-2006 09:44 AM

Actually yes I have disscussed 'step grays'.

As far as a 'mix', the context was a formula to take into a paint shop, not something people would buy components and then try to mix it up at home. I would still call that a simple one step and not any different buying a premade color. If there is already a premade color then there isn't a reason to create a new one in my opinion. There are Munsell grays that don't match up with anything I have seen so far, so they may have to be created, but the ones already identified seem perfectly fine.

As far as the list being short, I actually think that is a good thing as long as it's something people can find easily. It takes the confusion factor out of things and is the same thought process with weeding the laminates down to a few colors. Too many and it's back to guess and speculating.

I think we have a lot of great advanced mixes already. A lot of them though seem to be looking for a neutral gray and then beef up the gain and depth. All I am saying is I really believe we have a set of easy to get neutrals and the next step to me is in top coatings.

wbassett 11-14-2006 06:10 PM

I'm still trying to figure out my manual camera settings. I definitely need to get a tripod on payday too. When I get everything figured out I'll put up better screen shots. That do things justice and I'll also get some comparison shots with DW up as a white reference.

All pictures are in 480i. When I figure my camera out for screen shots I'll do some 720P shots.

This one is from Chances Are (Chick Flick that my wife wanted to see on the projector) The DVD quality is pretty crappy, it's one of those $4.88 bargain DVDs, but it still looks pretty good up on the screen.


This is from the same movie, it's some plaque over in Italy. Again my camera settings are not doing any justice. I took this one because up on screen it is so crisp and clear it looks like you are actually looking at a reflective brass plaque.


T2 opening scene, lots of dark shots which can be hard to make out detail. There was no detail problems with these scenes and the explosions were vivid and bright while the blacks remained black.


Same scene but from the doorway.


Same scene but from the other living room. This is probably 20-22' from the screen and on an angle.


I figured out why some shots where blurry, that was me moving slightly so a tripod will fix that. I still am not sure about the settings though. The camera keeps auto adjusting even in manual mode, so I don't have something set right. I took some shots with the lights on, but when I looked at the pictures they had an orange tint to them. White scenes like in T2 are white on the screen, but blue in the pictures. When I get it figured out or if someone can PM me, I'll get a good variety of lights on shots, day shots and brights scenes at night too.

One thing I was pleased with in the pictures in the letter box area. The blacks are very black. No need for a masking system with this color that's for sure.

Oh... this is also an LCD projector. It's 6 years old (factory refurbished though), 1700 lumens, 250 CR, so a newer projector would look even better.

wbassett 11-14-2006 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topher View Post

My gallon of Quietude is:
Ultra Pure White
Colorant 0Z 48 96
B Lamp Black 0 4 0
L Raw Umber 0 2 0
Do you know what the part number is for Behr Flat Poly? I couldn't find any in my local Home Depot (near Niagara Falls Canada) & when I asked, they said they didn't have any.

I couldn't find any flat either. I got some Behr Crystal Clear Polyurethane, Clear Matte finish No 780. On the top of the can is stamped 6D130002 00966.

I also got some Minwax Polycrylic Clear Satin SM5153000.


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