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post #1201 of 1231 Old 03-21-2009, 09:44 PM
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Sorry for asking stupid question, but did anyone tested adding less AAA to the mix i.e. 6-7oz instead of 8oz?,

I would imagine the "N" level would increase helping the white levels at the expense of black levels. I guess this is the full purpose of BW to start with.., so why do it....hmmm.... just plz do not flame me for asking me this 'smart' question....
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post #1202 of 1231 Old 03-22-2009, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clark17 View Post

Sorry for asking stupid question, but did anyone tested adding less AAA to the mix i.e. 6-7oz instead of 8oz?,

I would imagine the "N" level would increase helping the white levels at the expense of black levels. I guess this is the full purpose of BW to start with.., so why do it....hmmm.... just plz do not flame me for asking me this 'smart' question....

This is a good question - I've been wondering it myself. I assumed that it had to do with the neutrality (less aluminum = less color shift). In which case you would need a different color base paint which opens up a whole new can of worms trying to find one that will be perfectly neutral.
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post #1203 of 1231 Old 03-22-2009, 04:51 AM
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clark17,

It seems I remember reading a post in which the folks who created the mix stated they had done extensive testing, such as light meter, colorimetric and so forth and found this to be the most color correct mix.

I believe they have plans to experiment with the Auto Air Aluminum in the medium size instead of the fine to see what results that brings but, they stated it might be a while as they all are just too busy for now.
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post #1204 of 1231 Old 03-22-2009, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSD444 View Post

This is a good question - I've been wondering it myself. I assumed that it had to do with the neutrality (less aluminum = less color shift). In which case you would need a different color base paint which opens up a whole new can of worms trying to find one that will be perfectly neutral.


Good observation.

Using less AAA would not result in the same effective "correction' the beige "BB Base" provides. One important claim to fame of BW is it's "Neutral Gray-ness" obtained by using specific proportions of Aluminum to BB Base. If one goes outside those parameters, the initial purpose (Ambient Light Performance ) drops precipitously.

Only by using an additional "white" element has the reduction of the "Gray' been possible. And as that occurred, a definite reduction in effectiveness and justification for the use of AAA has resulted. I know thiv to be fact as I've done such testing in a through and unbiased manner under actual projected light & content. A "BW-Lite" effort has been talked about for several months, but nothing valid has been forthcoming. If you want something similar that contains AAA that does work along those lines, you must consider Canadian Gray III.

8 parts Auto Air Latex Aluminum-fine
4 parts WOP (Behr White Opal Pearlescent - discontinued - use Delta White Pearl )
1 part flat UPW white

You'll note that there is a preponderance of metallic content, and a "blending" of both aluminum and coated Mica elements. It's a medium dark mix with a good deal of retro-reflectiveness. The "White" helps mask the AAA's overt reflectivity and along with the Pearl helps augment the Whites. CGIII predates the use of AAA by BW by 4 years, and really was the first effective use of such.

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clark17,

I believe they have plans to experiment with the Auto Air Aluminum in the medium size instead of the fine to see what results that brings but, they stated it might be a while as they all are just too busy for now.

That has already been attempted and the resulting "Flakiness" produced too much visible "Graininess".

As far as BW is concerned, it does stand to reason that an adjustment could be made "in the BB Base" used to offset the smaller proportions of AAA's darkening and color shifting tendencies, but as stated above, there would still be a reduction in effectiveness. Adding other non-Aluminum metallics would effectively denude BW of it's individuality so that has not been even considered as a option...or at least not voiced publicly.. Too bad, all that. CGIII showed that such a blending can & does work to at least some extent.

But one could more easily do the same thing with the use of the more adjustable Silver Metallic-Mica based mixes, and have far more variability to experiment with. The judicious use of specific yellows or metallic Golds can always offset any 'push toward blue' a silver introduces (..remember that the BB base of BW is "beige"...)

Perhaps my comments might elicit a response from one of "The BW Crew" as far as what is/is not being accomplished (..or attempted...), but the attempts made by others along the lines described above don't bode all that well for any improvements that won't "Rob Peter to Pay Paul".

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post #1205 of 1231 Old 03-22-2009, 11:48 AM
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thanks guys for your feedback...

It is weird because now I'm even more confused on what should I do...

I'm still several months away until my basement is done...so my choice till then are:

a) add more white paint to Tiddler's (thanks Todd once again for all your help ) BW clone based on CIL paint with AAA?
b) redo BW from scratch using Valspar Ultra Premium "Flat Enamel"?
c) take my chances with rolling SILVER lite mix?
d) buy 5x10 WilsonArt laminate?
e) shut up and stop bugging other peeps lifes and project onto 'regular' white wall? (like I do now till my basement is finished), and funny enough I'm quiet satisfied with the results....
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post #1206 of 1231 Old 07-30-2009, 10:59 AM
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hi
let me warn u i am going to sound very dumb
sorry for that

i dont live in states just visiting so i dont know much but do know there is a home depot near where i am right now
i have ht room back home
the screen size is 11 ft by 6 ft app
projector is panny ax 200u
ttly dark room
right now i project the image on a white wall. i want to do same screen thing as i cant take a screen on the plane i thought of two options screen goo and black widow

screen goo is going to cost me 300$

black widow i have no idea about this how much it will cost or is ti better /same result as screen goo?
i believe the paint mix is available at home depot
pls can u tell me the paint model no and the right ratio mix which will go with my projector lumens? and the quantity of paint
thanks for the help
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post #1207 of 1231 Old 07-30-2009, 11:58 AM
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Hi amitsingh,

Not much activity on this thread so I'll chime in. Black Widow is not usually formulated from Home Depot items, and the primary ingredient, Auto Air Aluminum is found and ordered by most via the internet.

11' x 6' is a big screen. You'll want to be careful how dark a "Gray" you put up to shoot at, lest your results seem so considerably dimmer than your current White surface that you suffer a distressful letdown.

Do you live in India? If so, I really do not think it's viable for you to assemble BW and try to take it with you, and it will cost you a lot more than the mix's components themselves to ship a couple quarts over.

The BW base is a simple White paint, (...a Flat Interior (water based) Enamel ie: Valspar @ Lowes) that is tinted to a Bermuda Beige color, and the Auto Air Aluminum (AAA) is then added to effect both a Neutral Gray and a higher degree of reflectivity. It would make far more sense to order a 8 oz bottle of the AAA and try to pack it into your Check-In Luggage. Upon getting to where your going, getting a Beige base mixed up should be no problem, (...perhaps one of the Authors of this thread would venture a specific suggestion as to the tint?)

The Panny 200 is bright enough that any good Neutral Gray /w Poly added will deliver a excellent image that surpasses the White Wall your now using.

The BW will however let you drop down into Low lamp and achieve a level of Blacks that otherwise might never be seen. But you do need to read this thread completely, and PM one of the primary contributors for help. I strongly suggest that you ask about a slightly lighter version of BW so that if you do set your PJ on Low Lamp, you will still maintain decent White reproduction as well as some decided "PoP" to your image. As I said above....you have a BIG Screen.

If you get stuck...or get no further help...PM me and I'll steer you toward products that you can source in Asia. And......don't drop a considerable number of Dimes on Goo. We here on DIY Screens have other options that will always cost less, and perform every bit as good....and in many cases, much better.

I see you've logged off, and still no others have answered your questions, (...it is the middle of the work day though...) so you should check back often. But I'm sure now that I've poked a nose in, you'll get more response.

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post #1208 of 1231 Old 07-30-2009, 03:15 PM
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I agree with Maurice on this one... Goo is too expensive and difficult to work with and the performance isn't any better than anything you'll do here that's DIY.

The size screen you are looking at is a rather large screen and seeing that you said it is a totally dark room I'd recommend a lighter screen for you, something in the N9 range.

Not much activity because it was thought best to just let this thread die and go into the archives.

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post #1209 of 1231 Old 07-30-2009, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

If you get stuck...or get no further help...PM me and I'll steer you toward products that you can source in Asia.

Why PM, Maurice? Why not just post the info? Others might benefit too!

Thanks,
Garry
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post #1210 of 1231 Old 07-30-2009, 05:35 PM
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thank you guys especially Mississippiman u are very kind and helpful

yes i am from india and thats where i will be using the bw

now let me see if i got this right

i need normal white paint( which i can get easily from india)
then u mentioned adding bermuda beige to it? if yes where can i get that from will that be available in india?
and then get AAA which u mentioned a bottle of 8 oz.what brand/website is good one to get this from?

now if this is right please can u guys tell me the right amount of the paint needed and the right ratio of the mix of the above 3 paints for the screen that big?

thank you again
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post #1211 of 1231 Old 07-31-2009, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

Why PM, Maurice? Why not just post the info? Others might benefit too!

Thanks,
Garry

I "chimed in" but I didn't want to "ring the bell" too loudly on this thread. I always request that any I help via PM re-post the info and results. And most always do exactly that.

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post #1212 of 1231 Old 07-31-2009, 08:23 AM
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Ding...ding....

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitsingh View Post

thank you guys especially Mississippiman u are very kind and helpful

yes i am from india and thats where i will be using the bw

I thought so! The name was a gimme.

Quote:


now let me see if i got this right

i need normal white paint( which i can get easily from india)
then u mentioned adding Bermuda beige to it? if yes where can i get that from will that be available in india?

Not hardly normal. For approved results you MUST use a Flat Interior Water Based Enamel

The preferred base paints are Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel Flat or Behr #1850 (equivalent to the Valspar) tinted to match PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2. (...that is a specific "Tint" code specified by "Pittsburgh Paints" )
A "Tint" is not a "paint" but simply the colorant that makes up the shade & hue of the paint.

Valspar Paint is available at Lowe's and Behr Paint at Home Depot.

You just might be able to acquire the Tint alone if you Buy & supply a small Pint can and plead with the Paint Tech. Then you could carry that and the AAA home and mix them when your back home.


While "PPG Bermuda Beige" should be in Home Depot's paint computer, the tinting formula for a quart of Behr #1850 is:
F - Red Oxide 0-1-1
C - Yellow Oxide 0-2-1
B - Lamp Black 0-1-0

If you get 2 quarts, be sure they Tint it according to that specific amount. I still think acquiring only the "Tint" would be the best way for you to take to approach this.

Quote:


and then get AAA which u mentioned a bottle of 8 oz.what brand/website is good one to get this from?

Take your pick. Get your Wallet ready.

http://www.dickblick.com/products/auto-air-additives/
http://aatriceco.com/mm5/merchant.mv...ory_Code=AACAB
http://www.artsupply.com/createx/autoair1.htm
http://www.in2art.com/art-supplies/c...autoair-colors

http://www.autoaircolors.com/product...00_frames.html

Quote:


now if this is right please can u guys tell me the right amount of the paint needed and the right ratio of the mix of the above 3 paints for the screen that big?

thank you again

Simply mix US 16 ounces of AAA into 2 US quarts of tinted base paint and apply over a bright white primer. That should be enough for a screen your size, with a bit remaining. Apply 3 normal coats.

Spray it on if possible. Rolling it is problematical for a beginner without due practice, and the amount you'll have does not brook much trial & error as far as rolling.

Once again, let me know if you need specific advice as to spraying...and what to use to do so correctly.

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post #1213 of 1231 Old 07-31-2009, 11:36 AM
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MM,

While you're only suggesting transporting the tint, I suspect there may be restrictions on what can be sent in the luggage. You may know if the tints are in anyway flammable. If they are not, then this post can be ignored. I wouldn't want our friend from India to be disappointed at the airport.

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post #1214 of 1231 Old 07-31-2009, 12:37 PM
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He can take them both, and not worry because they are non-flammable items, and neither carry anything more harmful a designation than "Irritant". It can't hurt to print out the and tag the items with their official MSDS Specifications that each Mfg supplies.

Myself, all I've ever had to do was to state on a Hand Made Label "Water based Screen paints" and package them in a good "Seal-able" Plastic Container and then that within a larger Heavy Duty ZipLoc and I've never had an issue. Fail to do that much though, and you probably would come up with a "White Tag" from TSA saying "confiscated".

It does get a little crazy to try to "smuggle" through more than a quart in Checked Baggage. Shipping a well packed 1/2 Gallon container via International Economy to a Major FedEx address for Pick Up,(5-7 days) in a Major Indian City will cost at least, but no more than $125.00 US, although that might be preferable to worrying as to if you wind up getting escorted into a Little room to explain why the hell you trying to bring "Black Widow" into the Country.

USPS takes about 10 days via International Air, but costs about 40% less to ship.

Anyway...I like FedEx because they handle all their own Customs work and if they clear your requested shipment at the point of shipping (never had 'em fail to...) it's gonna get delivered on the other end.

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post #1215 of 1231 Old 07-31-2009, 02:57 PM
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Hi Amit,

I guess MM is trying to be helpful, but Wbassett is one of the designers of BW and he has told you that BW is too dark for your PJ and screen size. He has recommended you use a paint in the N9 range; BW is N7.5 (N0 is pure black and N10 is pure white).

With the large screen, you're PJ is only hitting that screen with about 11 fL. of light. While this would most likely be a very watchable image it doesn't leave any room for you to use low-power or econo mode to extend your PJ's lamp life or to consider that as the lamp ages it will lose brightness. Also, you have said that you will be viewing in a totally dark room; thus the recommendation against you using BW in this situation which was designed to combat ambient light situations.

As for a recommended N9 screen mix, the same group that designed BW is now testing such a mix that uses paints that can be found internationally.
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post #1216 of 1231 Old 08-02-2009, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

Hi Amit,

I guess MM is trying to be helpful, but Wbassett is one of the designers of BW and he has told you that BW is too dark for your PJ and screen size. He has recommended you use a paint in the N9 range; BW is N7.5 (N0 is pure black and N10 is pure white).

As for a recommended N9 screen mix, the same group that designed BW is now testing such a mix that uses paints that can be found internationally.

Amit,

Yes...I do try to help where I can, and seldom do I intrude upon another Thread to try to dissuade someone from their chosen application unless it's a choice so far removed from "correctness" as to demand such intervention.

Others are not so courteous, nor against speaking out against the given / chosen choice.

In this instance, the suggestion that you go forward with a N9 shaded Screen is based on the need to do so because there exists within the repertory of choices from the "Bug Bunch" no application that can deliver both exceptional Contrast enhancement AND still maintain unity gain, let alone grant one gain on the positive end of the scale.

Even with that, and es[pecially since you will have no ambient light concernes, I maintain that you can still effectively use BW by simply adding a small extra amount of the Flat White Enamel paint to the prescribed volume of the Mix. Your ambient light performance will go down proportionately to the amount of white added, but no more than, if not indeed nearly as much as will happen if you jump all the way up from N7.5 to N9.0 And consider this....would it not be a nice thing to be able to turn on a light if needed without blasting the image quality out the Door? Those occurrences will, and are bound to happen...if only when someone enters or leaves such a location. Remember this, what aspects you do not design into your screen's performance envelope will NEVER be there for you to use if needed...however unexpectedly that need arises.

And lastly, you will be faced with a more involved and longer list of needed ingredients with any lighter mix as is being or might later be suggested to you than what is involved with BW. More ingredients mean more money...and if that formula isn't available to you upon your return to India, it's all just moot in any case.

If you want another/any other Paint suggestions, PM me for such suggestions, then post of your own dedicated thread on such so that such information can be offered up without combating or re-directing attention from a dedicated Thread such as this.

..........and Harp, try to use the same courtesy on Silver Fire oriented threads please.

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post #1217 of 1231 Old 08-02-2009, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Amit,

Yes...I do try to help where I can, and seldom do I intrude upon another Thread to try to dissuade someone from their chosen application unless it's a choice so far removed from "correctness" as to demand such intervention.

I also try not to post in other threads and only do when something has been grossly mis-stated or the information is flat out incorrect.

Others are not so courteous, nor against speaking out against the given / chosen choice.

In this instance, the suggestion that you go forward with a N9 shaded Screen is based on the need to do so because there exists within the repertory of choices from the "Bug Bunch" no application that can deliver both exceptional Contrast enhancement AND still maintain unity gain, let alone grant one gain on the positive end of the scale.

Actually there does exist such an application, but every time someone tries to present something on this forum you tear them apart, condemn their research, and say the science behind things is invalid (and then turn around and make up your own science and state it as 'proof' and facts') There simply is no way to debate against something like that. It's literally like dealing with a little kid saying 'neener neener neener'. You get nowhere and it only ends badly.

I still see people talk about gain as if it is the one and only spec that defines a screen. Gain is probably one of the least important attributes and is only necessary when needed for low lumens or extreme size screens that drop the overall fL below the ISF and THX recommended limits. Those limits were established for a reason. Truth be told if a person doesn't need gain it's best to stay away from it. The trade offs can be detrimental to the image if everything isn't taken into account and 'just gain' is pushed as the only/ultimate attribute a person should be concerned about.

Far more important than gain is the screen color balance. I've preached ad-nauseum about the importance of D65 neutral screens, and we're even seeing the big guys emphasize their importance now too. Truth is there are more commercial screens that are D65 neutral than people realize. I have heard the comment before 'If the commercial companies aren't neutral, why should we be concerned?' Well I'm here to say there are indeed many D65 neutral commercial screens!

It also depends on how the gain is achieved. The gain MM talks about is achieved through mica and sheen (that are mixed with the base paint). Where things need to take care is as gain increases, we know viewing cone decreases, but also as gain gets higher we get color shifting and distortion. If the screen is already off from the neutral target, this is only going to take it further away. This has actually been tested and proven, but if presented MM would only say the tests are invalid (even though he's never done one single test himself and has been using our reported gain value for SF in some of his posts- so which is it, invalid or valid? You can't have it both ways )


Even with that, and es[pecially since you will have no ambient light concernes, I maintain that you can still effectively use BW by simply adding a small extra amount of the Flat White Enamel paint to the prescribed volume of the Mix. Your ambient light performance will go down proportionately to the amount of white added, but no more than, if not indeed nearly as much as will happen if you jump all the way up from N7.5 to N9.0 And consider this....would it not be a nice thing to be able to turn on a light if needed without blasting the image quality out the Door? Those occurrences will, and are bound to happen...if only when someone enters or leaves such a location. Remember this, what aspects you do not design into your screen's performance envelope will NEVER be there for you to use if needed...however unexpectedly that need arises.

It wouldn't be Black Widow then

The lighter versions I would recommend would be Cream&Sugar for an N9 gray, Scorpion N8.5 for an N8.5 gray, and Scorpion N8 for (obviously) an N8 shade of gray. True that isn't 'infinitely adjustable' but there is no need for 'infinite adjustments'. The human eye is not going to discern between an N8 and an N8.2 in shade. Half steps are when our eyes and brain starts seeing a difference in both the shade of gray with no projected image and difference in black level with a projected image.

Anyone can have an 'infinite' set of shades if they don't care about the screen color balance and there is no way it can be said that the 'infinitely adjustable SF sliding system' remains neutral. I guarantee the color value is all over the place and there will be no consistency from one screen to the next. All our screens are consistent and have a DE well within tolerance.


And lastly, you will be faced with a more involved and longer list of needed ingredients with any lighter mix as is being or might later be suggested to you than what is involved with BW. More ingredients mean more money...and if that formula isn't available to you upon your return to India, it's all just moot in any case.

Not sure I follow you on this, a 'more involved and longer list'? For what? Black Widow? Cream&Sugar? They are both very easy two ingredient mixes. Silver Fire is very complex in comparison (one mistake measuring any of the colors in the color component and the entire mix is off... even MM has had trouble with this). In fact SF is the most complex DIY application that is still actively being used and it is probably just as difficult as Goo Systems to apply. Sure, just like Goo if done right a person can get a very good screen, but it is too easy to screw up. The big difference though is price... at least with SF if a person screws it up they can make a new batch.

It really is pretty hard to screw up Black Widow, C&S or any of the Scorpion DIY mixes. Scratch that, I'll say it's virtually impossible to screw them up when mixing unless the wrong components are used or a person blatantly uses the wrong amounts or alters the mix (mainly based on ill advised 'adjustment' advice like given above).


If you want another/any other Paint suggestions, PM me for such suggestions, then post of your own dedicated thread on such so that such information can be offered up without combating or re-directing attention from a dedicated Thread such as this.

..........and Harp, try to use the same courtesy on Silver Fire oriented threads please.

More PM's

As far as Black Widow...

Since it has first been presented there has only been one change. That was to drop the use of Henry products because we found over time (as in a year) it begins to yellow. This was not known when it was first presented and once it was noted it was immediately removed as a viable ingredient. Other than that, there have been NO changes and the reason is simple... it works, and works extremely well and there is no reason to change things. This is one of the few DIY applications that can make that claim and statement!

Black Widow, as well as C&S and the Scorpions are all dead on neutral for D65. They range from an N7.5 shade of gray to a very light N9 gray. Gain is tested using industry specifications and standards and are very reliable.

Guys, this is DIY yet we provide more specs than the commercial guys! I can't see how anyone can say that is a bad thing! I do want to be very clear on this though... nobody ever said everyone is expected to go to these lengths in order to participate on this, or any DIY forum. Anyone can jump in and we all encourage that.

The testing and data came about for a few reasons. First was the need to go to the next level. There were some exceptional DIY methods out there, but to be honest nobody really knew what they had. I say that someone in here very well could have created the 'perfect screen', but not knowing if it could be 'better' or not they continued to modify and tweak until they screwed it up and may not have even realized what they did.

So to me there was a very real need to get some standards and data on things. And that was easy because we already had standards! Just use what the industry uses. Besides, if we continued to make up our own science and standards like seems to be so popular in here sometimes, how in hell can anyone compare anything here to any commercial screen? The only thing a person could come away with would be a visual comparison, and everyone's eyes are different. Honestly, what one person loves could be very different than what someone else likes, and probably is. The problem is when a screen is made by eye is that it is made for that person's eye and that's it. Sure it may look okay to others, but that doesn't mean it is optimal. When it is a true D65 neutral, then the user has control over the image and not the screen.

So data and all these charts and graphs are showing the color breakdown of various screens. Which brings us to the other reason why all this data came about... not everyone, but some people constantly put down every other DIY application out there and make claims that theirs is the only DIY method anyone should use. Often these claims were way over inflated and at times the 'facts' stated were flat out fabricated. Yet the claim that it was 'the best' was always thrown in there.

In the end it always ended up being an argument about subjective opinions. So all we did was to start applying actual industry standards to DIY and that's how I personally rank things. Oh... and yes visual performance also comes into play too. So we not only take readings, but also do empirical testing too.

Black Widow screens are being used all over the place, the USA, Europe, Australia and New Zealand... and is even being used in a commercial flight trainer for their flight simulator screens (how's that for detail?)... and it is completely DIY and not a dime was made by any of us. Sure Silver Fire is also used in many other countries and we all know it used to be Black Flame, and Black Flame is used all over too... but SF is a more difficult mix both to make and apply.

So I wouldn't exactly say SF is superior or that it is easier, and I definitely wouldn't say it's cheaper... that's a real stretch!

Silver Fire does have more sheen and gain than Black Widow, but it also tends to hot spot as reported by numerous users. Again, if a person needs the gain they may be fine but the point is gain isn't everything. It's not a knob at the screen that fixes everything.

Black Widow is an N7.5 shade of gray with a .9 gain. It is just about a dead on clone of a Grayhawk. I say 'just about' because BW is actually more neutral and has a better color balance. If we increased the gain to over 1.0, that doesn't mean it would be a better screen! Viewing cone would start to decrease and the higher the gain the more chances of hot spotting.

In the end I'd say Black Widow, Cream&Sugar, and the Scorpion mixes are exceptional DIY options. They are inexpensive, easy, can be rolled or sprayed... covers from N7.5 to N9... and performs extremely well too! Is it the only DIY option out there? Nope. Nobody is forced to use BW, in fact I encourage everyone to take a look at all the options out there and then decide.

The more important question is what is the proper shade of gray and do you really need any gain? If so, how much? After that, it becomes a lot easier to sort through all the various options out there. Laminates still make for a great screen and one that is virtually indestructable. OTS neutral grays as outlined in the Simple Gray Thread are also very viable screens and perform much better than they get credit for. And OTS neutral grays are also a great way to get a person up and running while they sift through the tons of 'stuff' they are sure to encounter here or anywhere on the web.

My advice to people is to do a proper room assessment first. Preferably do this before you buy a projector. More often than not a person buys the wrong projector for their room, especially if the room isn't a dedicated HT room.

Whether an individual goes with a commercial screen or DIY, the screen should be the first thing considered. Match the screen type with the room setting, and then mate a projector to both the room and the screen. Unfortunately probably 99% of the time we end up trying to help people after they bought the projector.

Here's where all these specs come into play!
Once you determine what screen type and shade is the best for your particular setup, start reading up on those screen options! Without readings, it is difficult to determine where a particular screen option falls. If I don't know, I usually say something appears to be around shade X, but make sure to state that I can't be sure.

The bottom line is I really don't care what option a person goes with as long as they are happy. If someone is asking me for help or my opinion though, I will always go with a true known neutral screen... I mean why guess when we do have proven options... proven both with data and with tons and tons of empirical user testing too.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #1218 of 1231 Old 12-12-2010, 11:14 PM
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Don't know if any one still monitors this thread but ... is BW still the best mix for ambient light?

What is the current formula..

Thanks

BSC
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post #1219 of 1231 Old 12-13-2010, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscottclark View Post

Don't know if any one still monitors this thread but ... is BW still the best mix for ambient light?

What is the current formula..

Thanks

If your ambient light issues are modest, it'll do fine. It's an easy application to assemble and apply.

Got real issues and Silver Fire 3.0 or 4.0 is your ticket. A bit more work, and it must be spray-applied, but it excels at ambient light performance while maintaining a Gain over 1.0

Much however depends upon the PJ in use no matter what the choice in paint.

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post #1220 of 1231 Old 02-15-2011, 11:31 PM
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Sawasdeekrub

From Thailand, I'm interesting DIY The BW screen. I'm already have 8 Oance AAA . Can Some guys tell me The best Formula of BW screen ? Thank you.




Excuse me, for a little English.
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post #1221 of 1231 Old 03-28-2011, 04:03 AM
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G'day from Australia!

Great thread!

Being very new to this (and extremely time-starved), I'm really struggling to get my head around exactly what to buy & do to get the right Black Widow formula in Australia.

(Btw, does BW have a compromise with viewing angle, silver speckling, or anything else?)

I'm in Australia, so I guess Dulux will be the go.
I'm wanting to paint a 2400x1200 3mm panel of MDF.

You can see my room by clicking on the signature.
My room is lights-OFF when viewing and has masking. The large curtain in the photos is being replaced with a dark purple, but alas - carpet, ceiling and walls are light.

So I'm after best contrast with best ambient light rejection, wide viewing angle and no hotspots or speckling.

Thanks in advance!
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post #1222 of 1231 Old 09-18-2011, 03:15 PM
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Have any Australian members tried the Black Widow ?

I'd be interested to hear what Australian paints you used and how you went with it.

Thanks in advance!
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post #1223 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 11:59 AM
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I don't know why this got buried.

I tried silverfire. It's ok. But a lot of work to mix stuff to make it good and its not for people who don't paint everyday.

I loved my SF screen, I just don't want to go through the steps to remix all that stuff again. I damaged my current SF screen, So i had to got to SS as a bandaid.

I tried Behr silver screen. Its easy to paint, but sucks.

I am going to try this next and i will report back.

Using Panny 7000.
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post #1224 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 12:54 PM
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Could you elaborate on the deficiencies of the SilverFire and Behr Silver Screen? What about them that you don't like?
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post #1225 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

I don't know why this got buried.

It's not an application that inspires much enthusiasm. It's a sub-1.0 gain Gray screen that exhibits the same detrimental tendency of most High Gain Screens...pronounced Granularity. It also is /has been encouraged as being a "roll-able" solution, when in fact it's very much subject to Roller marks.

It's not adaptable to change to any real degree. If you lighten it up with more White...it's not at all effective as a Ambient light screen. Nor does it maintain what color dynamics it had when the ratio of Aluminum to paint is higher.

But perhaps the primary reason is that those who promoted it so heavily have moved on elsewhere...for various reasons and motives.

Quote:
I tried silverfire. It's ok. But a lot of work to mix stuff to make it good and its not for people who don't paint everyday.

Tried? Did you scrap your SF v2 5.0 Screen?

OK? just OK? Is the the same kthejoker20 who has gushingly posted how much he "loved" his SF v2 5.0...and who readily suggested it to others himself several times on the SF v2 Thread?

Is there some dissatisfaction you haven't related...some unanswered complaint?

I disagree about who it is and is not for. The entire purpose of our being on Forum is to help those who do...or do not have previous experience, and who do...or do not have the confidence to attempt a high performance solution.

In the end, it's all about trying to help people achieve something the exceeds their expectations...of both a DIY Screen's potential as well as their own ability to create such a thing. It's not about how simply a "average performing" Screen can be made or how inexpensive it come in at. Granted...those are great things to aspire to and receive, but the pride in owning something extraordinary that one has made for one's self is worth any small difference in cost and labor. And in the whole scheme of things, the price difference and effort required is nothing extravagant nor at all that difficult.

I would expect you among most others would already appreciate that.

Quote:
I tried Behr silver screen. Its easy to paint, but sucks.

Many might disagree with that, being as SS has been tested to be of about the same gain as BW...just as neutral a Gray, yet rolls out easier without nearly as much fear of Roller Marks. Costs less too.

I don't recall your ever mentioning anything or ever reading anything about your trials with SS (...might have missed it though...) but I suppose it would have been prior to your acquisition of the Panny 7000

Quote:
I am going to try this next and i will report back.

Using Panny 7000.

Well, first thing you'll note is a significant drop in "pop & sizzle". It would be more of a "comparison" if the shade of SF you had made was almost identical to the shade of what a BW screen is...but I'm certain that the SF v2 5.0 is quite a bit darker a Gray.

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post #1226 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 01:30 PM
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kthejoker, the screen below is yours, getting hit with a Epson 8100, yes.

BW will never match this 140" SF v2 5.5



Leastwise not on the Panny's light output.

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post #1227 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 01:42 PM
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I have monitored this for months,recently became a member to learn to paint a screen.
Built everything else myself without any direction (it is what I like to do) even the furniture for room. Including cabinet that 60 inch plasma will lower in with remote control

Current projector screen is bo cloth

I have to admit that I am scared that I will mix or do something wrong when painting and also curious why not happy with sf?
Purchased hvlp painter and all paints, sintra is taking longer than they said
I enjoy building things but rarely paint and first time with sprayer....hate seeing this should have stayed off until I finished painting....
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post #1228 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 07:36 PM
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I was doing some maitenance on my SF screen and scratched it pretty good. So I put on a quick coat of SS to get me by until I figure something out.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVED my SF screen.

But now that I hit the 3D realm, I want to try and get some deeper blacks with reflections to try and eliminate some of the ghosting I am getting.

My intention wasn't to bash anything, my words just came out wrong. SF is awesome. I was just looking for something else to try which is easier to mix.

I figured the aluminum would be good to reflect the 3D, versus the basics silver. The BW people were gloating about N7.5 so I was just checking this out.
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post #1229 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

kthejoker, the screen below is yours, getting hit with a Epson 8100, yes.

BW will never match this 140" SF v2 5.5



Leastwise not on the Panny's light output.

Have to admit those are some INSANE blacks though HA HA.
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post #1230 of 1231 Old 02-19-2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Could you elaborate on the deficiencies of the SilverFire and Behr Silver Screen? What about them that you don't like?

SF doesn't have any deficiencies. I'm just really picky, just ignore me.
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