Originally Posted by MississippiMan
Yes...I do try to help where I can, and seldom do I intrude upon another Thread to try to dissuade someone from their chosen application unless it's a choice so far removed from "correctness" as to demand such intervention.I also try not to post in other threads and only do when something has been grossly mis-stated or the information is flat out incorrect.
Others are not so courteous, nor against speaking out against the given / chosen choice.
In this instance, the suggestion that you go forward with a N9 shaded Screen is based on the need to do so because there exists within the repertory of choices from the "Bug Bunch" no application that can deliver both exceptional Contrast enhancement AND still maintain unity gain, let alone grant one gain on the positive end of the scale.Actually there does exist such an application, but every time someone tries to present something on this forum you tear them apart, condemn their research, and say the science behind things is invalid (and then turn around and make up your own science and state it as 'proof' and facts') There simply is no way to debate against something like that. It's literally like dealing with a little kid saying 'neener neener neener'. You get nowhere and it only ends badly.
I still see people talk about gain as if it is the one and only spec that defines a screen. Gain is probably one of the least important attributes and is only necessary when needed for low lumens or extreme size screens that drop the overall fL below the ISF and THX recommended limits. Those limits were established for a reason. Truth be told if a person doesn't need gain it's best to stay away from it. The trade offs can be detrimental to the image if everything isn't taken into account and 'just gain' is pushed as the only/ultimate attribute a person should be concerned about.
Far more important than gain is the screen color balance. I've preached ad-nauseum about the importance of D65 neutral screens, and we're even seeing the big guys emphasize their importance now too. Truth is there are more commercial screens that are D65 neutral than people realize. I have heard the comment before 'If the commercial companies aren't neutral, why should we be concerned?' Well I'm here to say there are indeed many D65 neutral commercial screens!
It also depends on how the gain is achieved. The gain MM talks about is achieved through mica and sheen (that are mixed with the base paint). Where things need to take care is as gain increases, we know viewing cone decreases, but also as gain gets higher we get color shifting and distortion. If the screen is already off from the neutral target, this is only going to take it further away. This has actually been tested and proven, but if presented MM would only say the tests are invalid (even though he's never done one single test himself and has been using our reported gain value for SF in some of his posts- so which is it, invalid or valid? You can't have it both ways )
Even with that, and es[pecially since you will have no ambient light concernes, I maintain that you can still effectively use BW by simply adding a small extra amount of the Flat White Enamel paint to the prescribed volume of the Mix. Your ambient light performance will go down proportionately to the amount of white added, but no more than, if not indeed nearly as much as will happen if you jump all the way up from N7.5 to N9.0 And consider this....would it not be a nice thing to be able to turn on a light if needed without blasting the image quality out the Door? Those occurrences will, and are bound to happen...if only when someone enters or leaves such a location. Remember this, what aspects you do not design into your screen's performance envelope will NEVER be there for you to use if needed...however unexpectedly that need arises.It wouldn't be Black Widow then
The lighter versions I would recommend would be Cream&Sugar for an N9 gray, Scorpion N8.5 for an N8.5 gray, and Scorpion N8 for (obviously) an N8 shade of gray. True that isn't 'infinitely adjustable' but there is no need for 'infinite adjustments'. The human eye is not going to discern between an N8 and an N8.2 in shade. Half steps are when our eyes and brain starts seeing a difference in both the shade of gray with no projected image and difference in black level with a projected image.
Anyone can have an 'infinite' set of shades if they don't care about the screen color balance and there is no way it can be said that the 'infinitely adjustable SF sliding system' remains neutral. I guarantee the color value is all over the place and there will be no consistency from one screen to the next. All our screens are consistent and have a DE well within tolerance.
And lastly, you will be faced with a more involved and longer list of needed ingredients with any lighter mix as is being or might later be suggested to you than what is involved with BW. More ingredients mean more money...and if that formula isn't available to you upon your return to India, it's all just moot in any case.Not sure I follow you on this, a 'more involved and longer list'? For what? Black Widow? Cream&Sugar? They are both very easy two ingredient mixes. Silver Fire is very complex in comparison (one mistake measuring any of the colors in the color component and the entire mix is off... even MM has had trouble with this). In fact SF is the most complex DIY application that is still actively being used and it is probably just as difficult as Goo Systems to apply. Sure, just like Goo if done right a person can get a very good screen, but it is too easy to screw up. The big difference though is price... at least with SF if a person screws it up they can make a new batch.
It really is pretty hard to screw up Black Widow, C&S or any of the Scorpion DIY mixes. Scratch that, I'll say it's virtually impossible to screw them up when mixing unless the wrong components are used or a person blatantly uses the wrong amounts or alters the mix (mainly based on ill advised 'adjustment' advice like given above).
If you want another/any other Paint suggestions, PM me for such suggestions, then post of your own dedicated thread on such so that such information can be offered up without combating or re-directing attention from a dedicated Thread such as this.
..........and Harp, try to use the same courtesy on Silver Fire oriented threads please.
As far as Black Widow...
Since it has first been presented there has only been one change. That was to drop the use of Henry products because we found over time (as in a year) it begins to yellow. This was not known when it was first presented and once it was noted it was immediately removed as a viable ingredient. Other than that, there have been NO
changes and the reason is simple... it works, and works extremely well and there is no reason to change things. This is one of the few DIY applications that can make that claim and statement!
Black Widow, as well as C&S and the Scorpions are all dead on neutral for D65. They range from an N7.5 shade of gray to a very light N9 gray. Gain is tested using industry specifications and standards and are very reliable.
Guys, this is DIY yet we provide more specs than the commercial guys! I can't see how anyone can say that is a bad thing! I do want to be very clear on this though... nobody ever said everyone is expected to go to these lengths in order to participate on this, or any DIY forum. Anyone can jump in and we all encourage that.
The testing and data came about for a few reasons. First was the need to go to the next level. There were some exceptional DIY methods out there, but to be honest nobody really knew what they had. I say that someone in here very well could have created the 'perfect screen', but not knowing if it could be 'better' or not they continued to modify and tweak until they screwed it up and may not have even realized what they did.
So to me there was a very real need to get some standards and data on things. And that was easy because we already had standards! Just use what the industry uses. Besides, if we continued to make up our own science and standards like seems to be so popular in here sometimes, how in hell can anyone compare anything here to any commercial screen? The only thing a person could come away with would be a visual comparison, and everyone's eyes are different. Honestly, what one person loves could be very different than what someone else likes, and probably is. The problem is when a screen is made by eye is that it is made for that person's eye and that's it. Sure it may look okay to others, but that doesn't mean it is optimal. When it is a true D65 neutral, then the user has control over the image and not the screen.
So data and all these charts and graphs are showing the color breakdown of various screens. Which brings us to the other reason why all this data came about... not everyone, but some people constantly put down every other DIY application out there and make claims that theirs is the only DIY method anyone should use. Often these claims were way over inflated and at times the 'facts' stated were flat out fabricated. Yet the claim that it was 'the best' was always thrown in there.
In the end it always ended up being an argument about subjective opinions. So all we did was to start applying actual industry standards to DIY and that's how I personally rank things. Oh... and yes visual performance also comes into play too. So we not only take readings, but also do empirical testing too.
Black Widow screens are being used all over the place, the USA, Europe, Australia and New Zealand... and is even being used in a commercial flight trainer for their flight simulator screens (how's that for detail?)... and it is completely DIY and not a dime was made by any of us. Sure Silver Fire is also used in many other countries and we all know it used to be Black Flame, and Black Flame is used all over too... but SF is a more difficult mix both to make and apply.
So I wouldn't exactly say SF is superior or that it is easier, and I definitely wouldn't say it's cheaper... that's a real stretch!
Silver Fire does have more sheen and gain than Black Widow, but it also tends to hot spot as reported by numerous users. Again, if a person needs the gain they may be fine but the point is gain isn't everything. It's not a knob at the screen that fixes everything.
Black Widow is an N7.5 shade of gray with a .9 gain. It is just about a dead on clone of a Grayhawk. I say 'just about' because BW is actually more neutral and has a better color balance. If we increased the gain to over 1.0, that doesn't mean it would be a better screen! Viewing cone would start to decrease and the higher the gain the more chances of hot spotting.
In the end I'd say Black Widow, Cream&Sugar, and the Scorpion mixes are exceptional DIY options. They are inexpensive, easy, can be rolled or sprayed... covers from N7.5 to N9... and performs extremely well too! Is it the only DIY option out there? Nope. Nobody is forced to use BW, in fact I encourage everyone to take a look at all the options out there and then decide.
The more important question is what is the proper shade of gray and do you really need any gain? If so, how much? After that, it becomes a lot easier to sort through all the various options out there. Laminates still make for a great screen and one that is virtually indestructable. OTS neutral grays as outlined in the Simple Gray Thread are also very viable screens and perform much better than they get credit for. And OTS neutral grays are also a great way to get a person up and running while they sift through the tons of 'stuff' they are sure to encounter here or anywhere on the web.
My advice to people is to do a proper room assessment first. Preferably do this before
you buy a projector. More often than not a person buys the wrong projector for their room, especially if the room isn't a dedicated HT room.
Whether an individual goes with a commercial screen or DIY, the screen should be the first thing considered. Match the screen type with the room setting, and then mate a projector to both the room and the screen. Unfortunately probably 99% of the time we end up trying to help people after they bought the projector.
Here's where all these specs come into play!
Once you determine what screen type and shade is the best for your particular setup, start reading up on those screen options! Without readings, it is difficult to determine where a particular screen option falls. If I don't know, I usually say something appears to be around shade X, but make sure to state that I can't be sure.
The bottom line is I really don't care what option a person goes with as long as they are happy. If someone is asking me for help or my opinion though, I will always go with a true known neutral screen... I mean why guess when we do have proven options... proven both with data and
with tons and tons of empirical user testing too.