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post #91 of 143 Old 07-10-2011, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

I thought a drive had to be SACD capable. My understanding is the drive itself had to be capable of reading the watermark info on SACDs, as it's embedded into the pits.

You're talking about information that's in the data stream. The actual reading of any optical disc is pretty much the same, it's just a matter of getting a drive to make a raw dump of the data on the disc. PC drives use pretty much the same hardware as any other, it mainly a matter of making firmware to play nice.
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post #92 of 143 Old 07-10-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

You're talking about information that's in the data stream. The actual reading of any optical disc is pretty much the same, it's just a matter of getting a drive to make a raw dump of the data on the disc. PC drives use pretty much the same hardware as any other, it mainly a matter of making firmware to play nice.

I'm talking about data that is embedded within the pits, which my understanding has been that non-SACD drives can't read. See here:
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Pit Signal Processing
SACD includes various copy protection measures of which the most prominent is Pit Signal Processing (PSP), a physical watermarking feature that contains a digital watermark modulated in the width of pits on the disc (data is stored in the pit length). The optical pickup must contain special circuitry to read the PSP watermark, which is then compared to information on the disc to make sure it’s legitimate. Because the majority of DVD players and all DVD-ROM drives use an optical pickup that lacks this specialized watermark detection circuitry they cannot read the data on the SACD layer of a protected SACD disc.[4]
On hybrid SACD discs, PSP is only applied to the SACD layer — not to the CD layer.

I would guess that this is one of the reasons that SACD is about the only format that has never been fully cracked. And probably why this method requires use on a PS3, not just a PC with any old DVD drive.
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post #93 of 143 Old 07-10-2011, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I don't think this is accurate. SACD uses the same drive hardware as DVD, so it should just be a matter of firmware hacking unless the chipsets themselves are hard-coded to block SACD.

No, regular PC drives are not coded to block SACD, they simply lack the extra circuitry you need to read the high-density layer of an SACD. They can only read the CD layer because it acts like a normal CD at the regular infra-red laser wavelength.

Why did you think Sony dropped SACD from PS3 after the first two generations? Merely to save the cost of the extra circuitry.

ETA: Darin is right. I just had not yet seen his reply when I wrote mine.
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post #94 of 143 Old 07-10-2011, 07:45 PM
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Correct, it is impossible for this method to ever be implemented using a standard DVD drive to rip the SACDs to DSD. The only reason this hack works now is that the PS3's encryption keys were broken. The PS3 programmers just never envisioned that happening. The format was designed to have both software and hardware provisions in place to prevent piracy, which worked well for over a decade. Successful attacks have been placed on weak links down in the chain, such as HDMI which was broken in the past couple of years.

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post #95 of 143 Old 07-10-2011, 08:16 PM
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I do wish a legitimate kit was offered to do SACD rips on a PC.

I hope digital distribution sites like HDTracks will be quick to offer high quality multi-channel DSD-to-PCM conversions, and not just stereo. Music should not be strictly confined to disc in this day and age.
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post #96 of 143 Old 07-12-2011, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post
I do wish a legitimate kit was offered to do SACD rips on a PC.
It's just not going to happen, neither legal nor illegal. SACD was designed to be impossible to even read with PCs and while eventually that has not prevented the format from getting hacked it has managed to delay it for years.
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post #97 of 143 Old 08-13-2011, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by T7T View Post

It's just not going to happen, neither legal nor illegal. SACD was designed to be impossible to even read with PCs and while eventually that has not prevented the format from getting hacked it has managed to delay it for years.

The reason for the delay was most likely lack of motivation. SACD was considered a failed format many years ago. Really only audiophiles knew it existed and the industry has considered it a failure.

Also, Not a lot of desirable material was released on SACD. I never understood the record industry's need to protect SACD and DVD-A because of higher quality content. Most pirates aren't audiophiles. CD quality is good enough and has no encryption. I guess they were hoping everything would be released on encrypted formats and CD would disappear. I'm pretty certain if that had happened then SACD would have been cracked wide open long before now.
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post #98 of 143 Old 08-15-2011, 08:48 AM
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post #99 of 143 Old 08-15-2011, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by labjr View Post
Not a lot of desirable material was released on SACD.
Some of us would strongly disagree.

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post #100 of 143 Old 08-15-2011, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by labjr View Post

Also, Not a lot of desirable material was released on SACD.
"Was" sounds like you think it's all over and whatever there is is all there'll ever be. New titles are being released! And many (of us) are enthusiastically building collections.

Here are two threads where you can come up to speed on high resolution multichannel audio ...

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20427763

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post20802250

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post #101 of 143 Old 08-15-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
The reason for the delay was most likely lack of motivation. SACD was considered a failed format many years ago. Really only audiophiles knew it existed and the industry has considered it a failure.
Very few people is interested in SACDs or DVD-As. 99% of mortals don't even know these formats exist. IME this is very true outside the USA. I've asked for SACDs in some large CD music stores in many countries and the salesperson almost always open the eyes as if I was speaking in martian language. Even in those places where vinyls are still being offered.

I have a vast collection but I'm afraid the format is almost dead.
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post #102 of 143 Old 09-23-2011, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JorgeLopez11 View Post

Very few people is interested in SACDs or DVD-As. 99% of mortals don't even know these formats exist. IME this is very true outside the USA. I've asked for SACDs in some large CD music stores in many countries and the salesperson almost always open the eyes as if I was speaking in martian language. Even in those places where vinyls are still being offered.

I have a vast collection but I'm afraid the format is almost dead.

I disagree. I think it will chug along for quite some time. Unless Blue Ray Audio takes off, which would be fine by me.

It used to be:"Wine, Women and Song"Now it's: "Beer, The Old Lady and TV"My Theater Build http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/Gr...?sort=6&page=1
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post #103 of 143 Old 09-24-2011, 03:16 AM
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I agree IMHO SACD is far from dead, not huge quantities but plenty are still appearing every month. But especially in the classical music and somewhat less in Jazz, hardly in Pop or Rock.

Just take a look at SA-CD.net what is being released continuously and on-line dealers like www.jpc.de invest quite a lot in keeping stock of the format.

So SA-CD is not dead at all.

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post #104 of 143 Old 11-06-2011, 11:04 PM
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The link for PS3 keys are dead =(
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post #105 of 143 Old 11-07-2011, 05:41 AM
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Try googling. They are out there.

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post #106 of 143 Old 11-07-2011, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgeLopez11 View Post

Very few people is interested in SACDs or DVD-As. 99% of mortals don't even know these formats exist. IME this is very true outside the USA. I've asked for SACDs in some large CD music stores in many countries and the salesperson almost always open the eyes as if I was speaking in martian language. Even in those places where vinyls are still being offered.

I have a vast collection but I'm afraid the format is almost dead.

I love being the 1%! The folks that know about it here are few and far between as well...I have found excellent deals in the used market in CD sections here in texas (picked up sting and steely dan sacds for $8 apiece last week) but it seems there are only a few dozen purchasing them on e-bay and Amazon on a regular basis...I don't think I've ever met a person (outside of a salesperson or two) who knew about either format in the last 8 years that I didn't inform.

Fwiw, I also took for granted that a substantial amount of homes had "home theater" setups but am coming to find that percentage isn't as high as I once thought...Alot of monitors being sold but I bet setups like we have are in the single digits in the US.
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post #107 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 01:41 PM
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"The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." W. Gibson

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post #108 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 03:13 PM
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Nice. But do you have to do anything to the ps3 like install an alternative OS to make this work?
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post #109 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

Nice. But do you have to do anything to the ps3 like install an alternative OS to make this work?

Yes.

http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/

"instructions"

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post #110 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes.

http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/

"instructions"

Well that probably leaves me out since I supsect my kids haveupgraded the firmware to beyond that version in order to join the PSN and run the latest games.
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post #111 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 04:53 PM
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Well that probably leaves me out since I suspect my kids have upgraded the firmware to beyond that version in order to join the PSN and run the latest games.

You can count on it.

But there are units "out there" that have not been upped beyond 3.55. The only other requirement is that they had SACD compatibility out of the box. I bought two on ebay, the second of which was last week.

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post #112 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You can count on it.

But there are units "out there" that have not been upped beyond 3.55. The only other requirement is that they had SACD compatibility out of the box. I bought two on ebay, the second of which was last week.

Jeff

Well mine is an original 60GB FAT so it plays SAD's fine. I will check the FW when I get home tonight. If it's been updated then c'est la vie and I don't plan to find one that's not been updated. I will just have to risk that the my discs are going last okay.
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post #113 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

Well mine is an original 60GB FAT so it plays SAD's fine. I will check the FW when I get home tonight. If it's been updated then c'est la vie and I don't plan to find one that's not been updated. I will just have to risk that the my discs are going last okay.

If one uses a media server, it's nice to be able to rip DVD-A and SACD along with movies to it. For me, anyway, archiving the ISO is secondary.

I like being able to "flip through" cover art on screen, search my library by artist, year, bass player, etc, whatever I want, and not have to handle physical media. Heck, it is the frail plastic cases that go south first for me.

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post #114 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If one uses a media server, it's nice to be able to rip DVD-A and SACD along with movies to it. For me, anyway, archiving the ISO is secondary.

I like being able to "flip through" cover art on screen, search my library by artist, year, bass player, etc, whatever I want, and not have to handle physical media. Heck, it is the frail plastic cases that go south first for me.

Jeff


Well I just finished ripping my 300CD collection to a server that I access using a Popcorn Hour and a Logitech Squeezebox. It would be nice to put my SACD and DVD-A collection up there also but I guess that's not going to happen.

The Popcorn plays FLAC but I don't think the Squeezebox does so I might not be able to store lossless audio anyway.
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post #115 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 06:19 PM
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I am just looking at PCH *right now* trying to understand how it all fits together. I know how to build a server and I would run unRAID. And I know how to rip and store. But what I haven't decided on yet is a networked media player and/or user interface.

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post #116 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

The Popcorn plays FLAC but I don't think the Squeezebox does so I might not be able to store lossless audio anyway.

Squeezebox has always played flacs, unless you mean multi-channel flacs. I have roughly 28,487 flacs and they play just fine on my four SBs.
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post #117 of 143 Old 11-13-2011, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

Squeezebox has always played flacs, unless you mean multi-channel flacs. I have roughly 28,487 flacs and they play just fine on my four SBs.

I mean multichannel FLAC.
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post #118 of 143 Old 11-14-2011, 05:57 AM
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FWIW, the Oppo BDP 93/95 will play multichannel flac over DLNA and attached storage. 24/96 with no problem when hard wired to the server. Less reliably over wireless N, but okay if the local network is not congested.
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post #119 of 143 Old 11-14-2011, 06:14 AM
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Looks like I may have to upgrade my Oppo BDP 83 to a 93. I have close to 200 SACDs and DVD-A's. Now that ripping is somewhat doable it would be nice to get some of the multi-channel material on the server. I need to check my fat 60G PS3's firmware.

ETA: Damn my PS3 is at 3.70, the wife has been using it upstairs for BDs.
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post #120 of 143 Old 11-15-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I am just looking at PCH *right now* trying to understand how it all fits together. I know how to build a server and I would run unRAID. And I know how to rip and store. But what I haven't decided on yet is a networked media player and/or user interface.

Jeff

I just finished ripping 15 SACD's and am using my HTPC and my WHS media server to playback ripped SACD iso files with foobar which is a pretty good expierence/interface but it leaves me wanting something more. I am still exploring converting files to flac or some other lossless container, but thus far just seems to take too many steps with unfriendly command line applications. I think once the DFF files have been converted to something like flac then the frontend user interfaces like PCH, SQBX and HTPC's applications like J. River, Media Monkey, etal. will make the whole process more enjoyable.

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