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post #31 of 54 Old 08-13-2017, 08:24 PM
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I'm more than comfortable using HDMI for all multichannel SACDs. The use of Dirac room correction far outweighs the possibility of jitter being an issue. I'd be curious to know if jitter from HDMI is actually audible and if anyone could detect it.

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post #32 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 08:24 AM
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probably true thehun...

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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
Jitter might be an issue with straight PCM via HDMI, but with any packeted data [MLP, DTHD DTS HD or SACD's own lossless encode]it becomes a much ado about nothing.
Of course if one want's to chase that "dragon's tale"..... hey it's their money.

But a lot of people are sending a converted PCM bitstream via HDMI to an AVR. In farness the Emotiva XMC-1 does jitter reduction and adds BM and Dirac in PCM. I'm in no position to say that my approach is better; when they start shipping with the new HDMI boards installed I'll likely buy one and try SACD both ways. But that won't be cheaper.

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post #33 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 09:03 AM
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Jitter as it occurs in even the cheapest digital audio equipment is a whole order of magnitude below the threshold of audibility. I doubt if any equipment out there has audible levels of jitter. I only know of one piece of equipment that has even tested close to audible levels of jitter. That was a media server made by McIntosh which is no longer being made. Most everything currently is 100 times below the threshold.
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post #34 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
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But a lot of people are sending a converted PCM bitstream via HDMI to an AVR
I'm not sure why people need to do that, pretty much all the formats I listed above been supported via HDMI for over a decade now including DSD, and many AVR's Pre/Pros decode it too these days. In any case jitter is not worth to lose sleep over.

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post #35 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I'd be curious to know if jitter from HDMI is actually audible and if anyone could detect it.

Bill
You can find lots of claims from the press and "audiophiles" all over the world, but none rise above the typical anecdotes that plagues this hobby.
As far as I know there is no credible study or test series ever performed on jitter be it via HDMI or any other connection types.

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post #36 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 02:57 PM
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so many pseudo-scientists here!

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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
You can find lots of claims from the press and "audiophiles" all over the world, but none rise above the typical anecdotes that plagues this hobby.
As far as I know there is no credible study or test series ever performed on jitter be it via HDMI or any other connection types.


Clearly Oppo could have saved money on the UDP-205, Emotiva on the XMC-1 and Bryston on the bda-3 by eliminating the anti-jitter circuitry.

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post #37 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 04:49 PM
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Clearly Oppo could have saved money on the UDP-205, Emotiva on the XMC-1 and Bryston on the bda-3 by eliminating the anti-jitter circuitry.
Did any of those companies did any real scientific listening tests [DBT] that their circuitry actually makes a difference at all? They must have since they included it, right?

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post #38 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
Clearly Oppo could have saved money on the UDP-205, Emotiva on the XMC-1 and Bryston on the bda-3 by eliminating the anti-jitter circuitry.
I had the Oppo 205 in my system for a little over a month. It was connected to an XMC-1 and I did a direct A-B comparison between the 205 and 105D using HDMI. I had duplicate SACDs that I used for comparison. I switched between the 205 and 105D and did not notice any audible difference with the improved jitter reduction of the 205.

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post #39 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 08:19 PM
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well...

,
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
Did any of those companies did any real scientific listening tests [DBT] that their circuitry actually makes a difference at all? They must have since they included it, right?

Bryston pretty much measures everything they do, but they would have done measurements of noise, not DBT.

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post #40 of 54 Old 08-14-2017, 08:27 PM
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well Bill...

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I had the Oppo 205 in my system for a little over a month. It was connected to an XMC-1 and I did a direct A-B comparison between the 205 and 105D using HDMI. I had duplicate SACDs that I used for comparison. I switched between the 205 and 105D and did not notice any audible difference with the improved jitter reduction of the 205.

Bill

I'm guessing you'd need to defeat the anti-jitter on your XMC-1 and listen at close to reference levels in order to hear the effects of jitter:


https://www.stereophile.com/referenc...ter/index.html

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post #41 of 54 Old 08-15-2017, 08:10 AM
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The just detectable threshold of jitter in music is 20ns (and that is being generous). No home audio component has even come close to that kind of a jitter rating. http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=8354
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post #42 of 54 Old 08-15-2017, 01:07 PM
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....well indeed

stereophoole and actual science just don't mix.
BTW nobody claims there is no jitter and obviously we can measure it, but that doesn't mean it's audible, and the only way to determine that is with DBT! The very method that Atkinson and Co. refuse to indulge an claim it is faulty. They rather have us just buy their biased views without question and keep reading their garbage. No thanks! I rather listen some music....
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post #43 of 54 Old 08-15-2017, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
I'm guessing you'd need to defeat the anti-jitter on your XMC-1 and listen at close to reference levels in order to hear the effects of jitter:
https://www.stereophile.com/referenc...ter/index.html
In all honesty my previous A-B comparison was fine for me. I doubt very much that jitter is an issue with my gear and certainly isn't audible as far as I can tell.

Bill

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post #44 of 54 Old 08-15-2017, 03:32 PM
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what can I say Bill?

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In all honesty my previous A-B comparison was fine for me. I doubt very much that jitter is an issue with my gear and certainly isn't audible as far as I can tell.

Bill

I also use Cardas cables: I'm an unreconstructed audiophile. If there is periodic jitter - the worst kind - induced by HDMI it would be some 80 dB down and would be unlikely to be heard except in pianissimo passages in orchestral music played near full scale. Which is why I mentioned it as an afterthought.


The controversy that the pseudo-scientists here are so keen to pursue has been fought on the web several times over the past several years. If it ever is resolved it will be done by people with real expertise, not us. In the interim I'll simply point out that Bryston, Emotiva and Oppo are not known for peddling audiophile jewelry. They wouldn't incorporate anti-jitter mechanisms in the HDMI interface unless they resulted in measurable improvements. So the real question is whether these improvements are audible, and if so under what conditions they are audible.

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post #45 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
I also use Cardas cables: I'm an unreconstructed audiophile. If there is periodic jitter - the worst kind - induced by HDMI it would be some 80 dB down and would be unlikely to be heard except in pianissimo passages in orchestral music played near full scale.
You wouldn't even be able to hear it there. Your living room probably has a noise floor of greater than 30dB. That means that you boost your volume to hear the quietest parts over the top of the noise floor. In order to hear jitter at -80dB you would have to raise your peak volume to 110dB (80+30), which would be mighty uncomfortable listening. Also, your figure of 80dB isn't even close. Jitter is even less audible than that. There isn't a single piece of audio equipment I have ever seen tested and reviewed that had audible levels of jitter. It's pure sales pitch. Theoretical improvement.

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post #46 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 12:26 PM
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well...

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You wouldn't even be able to hear it there. Your living room probably has a noise floor of greater than 30dB. That means that you boost your volume to hear the quietest parts over the top of the noise floor. In order to hear jitter at -80dB you would have to raise your peak volume to 110dB (80+30), which would be mighty uncomfortable listening. Also, your figure of 80dB isn't even close. Jitter is even less audible than that. There isn't a single piece of audio equipment I have ever seen tested and reviewed that had audible levels of jitter. It's pure sales pitch. Theoretical improvement.

Oppo tested a "competitor's Blu-ray player" with sidebands at close to -70 dB through HDMI: https://www.oppodigital.com/Knowledg...ProdID=UDP-205 .


P.S. Most people can just hear tonal information about 20 dB below the noise floor in the room.

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post #47 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 12:51 PM
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Check out Stereophile's jitter ratings. They are a little more objective (sorta).
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post #48 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 01:07 PM
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nah...

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Check out Stereophile's jitter ratings. They are a little more objective (sorta).

Oppo was not testing players in isolation but players connected to a pre-pro over HDMI carrying various video signals.


Regardless, I'm not attempting to make a big deal out of jitter: I'm just arguing against your ill-informed dismissal of jitter's audibility.

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post #49 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 01:27 PM
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Do you agree with the JDD threshold I posted?
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post #50 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 01:46 PM
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no...

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Do you agree with the JDD threshold I posted?


The UDP-205 exhibited -100 dB sidebands at 50 picoseconds (with a 1080p video signal). Do I think this jitter would be audible? No, I agree with Bill Mac's indifference here.

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post #51 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 02:17 PM
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Picoseconds aren't audible. The threshold I have gotten from AES is 20 nanoseconds. That's more than a full order of magnitude. Nothing is in that range. I don't think jitter is an issue at all, even with the cheapest audio equipment.
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post #52 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
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Picoseconds aren't audible. The threshold I have gotten from AES is 20 nanoseconds. That's more than a full order of magnitude. Nothing is in that range. I don't think jitter is an issue at all, even with the cheapest audio equipment.


No, it's more than two orders of magnitude. Anyway, not AES but one author, and that article is hiding behind a paywall. I think JA found audible jitter disappeared at around 200 picoseconds. The great thing about John Atkinson is that not only is he proficient with measurements but he will openly discuss and defend them over at AA just about any time.

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post #53 of 54 Old 08-16-2017, 03:10 PM
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If I remember correctly 200 ps was with tones. 20 ns was in music. Either way, not something to break a sweat over.
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post #54 of 54 Old 08-18-2017, 03:17 PM
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You don't directly hear the jitter artifacts but eliminating jitter usually removes the smearing of some frequencies. Listen to some of the very early CD players that had unchecked jitter problems and you will hear a world of difference from today's better players. High jitter hardware tended to introduce a "glassy" hardness into the sound.

I'll note that modern DACs of the last 15 years have virtually eliminated it. I haven't heard a really bad mass market player with jitter problems since the late 1990s.

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