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post #31 of 140 Old 08-15-2017, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
From a technical perspective that is just silly. There is no LFE on these discs so all the 4 main channels are full range. A bass manager is nothing but a 2 way crossover implemented in this case in digital domain. So by itself it cannot make the bass disappear unless a corresponding sub is turned off, or faulty. I have fate that sworth already discounted such variables.
The sub works fine with other discs. I figured having bass management on and turning the volume of the sub channel up to +16dB would be enough to determine that there was nothing on the disc below 80Hz, but if disabling the sub and going full range quad will help, I'll try it. Hopefully I'll get time tonight and report back. I'm focusing on the Stokowski Gotterdammerung Symphonic Synthesis, primarily at the end where she lights the flames and the Rhine overflows its banks. That's where the kettle drums are heaviest. Wagner without sub bass just isn't right.
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post #32 of 140 Old 08-15-2017, 10:15 PM
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It won't make any difference trust me, if all channels are set to small than below the Xo point bass will be sent to the sub. If these tracks are indeed defective the way you describe them and your equipment works as intended then there is nothing you can do.

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post #33 of 140 Old 08-15-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post
It won't make any difference trust me, if all channels are set to small than below the Xo point bass will be sent to the sub. If these tracks are indeed defective the way you describe them and your equipment works as intended then there is nothing you can do.
I tend to doubt the Dutton Vocalion SACDs in question are defective. I did a search for bass issues with DV SACDs and the only mention of it was this thread. There are several DV SACD threads over at the QQ and Steve Hoffman forums and not one mention of bass issues that the OP claims. There are quite a few very knowledgeable members in both of those forums. I would tend to think if there were bass issues with the DV SACDs they would have posted about it long ago.

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post #34 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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OK. I got home from work early so I threw on the Immolation SACD.

First I verified that all my bass management settings were correct. All my speakers were set to small. Crossover at 80Hz. Played a couple of minutes of an Elton John SACD. The sub was firing perfectly. Beautiful full sound. Then I put on the Immolation SACD and verified that it was indeed quad. No center channel. I skipped to the end with the fire music and kettle drums. I went over to the sub. Couldn't hear anything come out of it. Put my hand on it and felt a very faint vibration. Not enough to generate any sound. So I went to the AVR settings and dialed the sub up to maximum volume possible... +16dB over my normal setting. (That is 2 1/2 times the volume level and would blast bass with any other recording.) I could just hear a little bit of sound coming out, but it was all in one frequency band, because the kettle drums had a clear discernible note. When the basses would do a descending pattern of notes, the sound would be there and then disappear as it went lower. It seems to me that on a quad album if some sound is coming out of the sub, then bass management is working.

So I tried setting all the speakers to large to turn off bass management. That made no difference at all. Still no sub bass.

I went to my music server to search up the RCA stereo Bach transcriptions album from CD. It turns out the fill up was Handel's Water Music, not Immolation. So I chose Komm Susser Tod to compare to the SACD.

Immediately there was a difference. The CD started out with a sustained bass note like a pedal on an organ. Throughout the piece was a low frequency musical pattern like the bass line on an organ piece. That was almost inaudible on the SACD. I boosted the sub channel of the SACD to +16dB. I could now hear an occasional small bass sound, but it was all in a single note. When the bass line descended, it disappeared. It sounded like there was a little bit of bass rolling off right at 80Hz that got crossed over to the sub, but below that, there was nothing.

It was interesting to compare the mixes/mastering on other aspects too. The string tone on the stereo was focused and natural. Typical sumptuous Stokowski violins. On the SACD, one part of the violin sound was front left and another frequency band of it was back left. It was as if the violins were smeared across the left wall. No focus. Unnatural sounding. Worse yet, the sheen on the top of the violin sound was filtered off. They sounded dull compared to the CD. I couldn't detect anything coming from front right on the quad. I guess that is where the basses were supposed to be. Interestingly enough, the quad version had an overdubbed flute solo in the rear left channel that didn't exist in the regular stereo version. I guess Stoki added that bit to spice up the surround effect.

In any case, I took the time to track this down and define the problem. At the beginning, I thought it had something to do with there being a bad LFE track. Then I thought it might be a bass management issue. Not it's clear that there is a bass rolloff at 80Hz on these discs that is eliminating the sub bass. I also think there is a high end rolloff that is blunting the treble above 10kHz. This is pretty clear in the triangle at the end of Immolation. It is all in a single frequency range like a bell with no upper harmonics. I can't comment on the weird left channel smear to the strings. That may have been a part of the original quad mix. It doesn't sound good though. All of these things are the exact same things I identified as problems with the Mancini Severinson disc, so it seems to be a pattern with Dutton / Vocalion releases. Less formal comparison of the Floyd Cramer, Hugo Montenegro and other Mancini release seem to back this up, but I haven't gone to the trouble of jacking my subwoofer settings to check them yet. Are these deliberate choices? Are they mastering errors? I don't know. But I do know that the sound on these discs is flawed when played on a full range system.

If anyone has one of these discs and wants to check for themselves, I'd suggest doing the subwoofer volume boost I describe above and see what you come up with. RCA in the 1960s was the gold standard of sound quality. These recordings really should sound as good as the best recordings you've ever heard.

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I did a search for bass issues with DV SACDs and the only mention of it was this thread. There are several DV SACD threads over at the QQ and Steve Hoffman forums and not one mention of bass issues that the OP claims. There are quite a few very knowledgeable members in both of those forums. I would tend to think if there were bass issues with the DV SACDs they would have posted about it long ago.
There was a discussion of it at QQ back when I got the Mancini disc. The posts were all deleted by a moderator. I can't tell you why no one else since has commented on this. I would guess that they just aren't familiar with the way these albums are supposed to sound. Or perhaps their systems aren't capable of producing sub bass frequencies. On headphones, or with small bookshelf speakers, it would be harder to hear what's missing. It also may be due to the assumption that because it's an SACD and surround sound, it has to sound good. The midrange certainly sounds great on this disc... sharp, crystal clear, no tape hiss. If I was just judging by French horns and woodwinds, I would think it sounded good too. But with audiophile recordings and with classical music, I expect more than that.

Someone at QQ posted a spectrum analysis of the Mancini disc that showed the frequency range and volume levels of each frequency. It clearly showed that the bottom two octaves were severely attenuated. I don't have the ability to do that. But if someone has one of these discs and knows how to generate that sort of thing, it would show clearly what I'm talking about. I'd be interested to see where the high end rolloff is. I'm guessing 10kHz but the rolloff may actually start lower than that judging by the dullness of the violin sheen.

Last edited by sworth; 08-16-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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post #35 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I tend to doubt the Dutton Vocalion SACDs in question are defective. I did a search for bass issues with DV SACDs and the only mention of it was this thread. There are several DV SACD threads over at the QQ and Steve Hoffman forums and not one mention of bass issues that the OP claims. There are quite a few very knowledgeable members in both of those forums. I would tend to think if there were bass issues with the DV SACDs they would have posted about it long ago.

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I was merely hypothetical since I have no first hand experience with these discs, having said that I've been on that boat before so it's entirely possible he got a defective discs though it may seem improbable. Anyway I have no dog in this race just try to help a fellow member if I can that's all.

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post #36 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 12:03 PM
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OK. I got home from work early so I threw on the Immolation SACD.
Could you provide a link or the full title of the Dutton Vocalion SACD you are referring to. I just did a search on the DV site for "Immolation" and it states "Sorry No Results Found".

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/dutt...017/search.php

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post #37 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Gotterdammerung Immolation
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/pro...?prod=CDLX7337

Henry Mancini and Doc Severinson
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/pro...?prod=CDLK4570

It says in the description that it isn't an original quad mix. It's a new one done from the multitrack masters. Maybe the master wasn't in great shape. Would that result in loss of low frequencies? The loss of high frequencies is probably from noise reduction. There's no tape hiss at all on this.

Actually, I tried to return the Doc Severinson / Mancini album when I bought it. The label never responded to my message through their contact us form. I gave them one more chance and got stuck with the same thing again. I won't be buying any more there. I tend to think that it's just the way they master stuff and it's deliberate. It's a shame because I really like the music.

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post #38 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Actually, I tried to return the Doc Severinson / Mancini album when I bought it. The label never responded to my message through their contact us form. I gave them one more chance and got stuck with the same thing again. I won't be buying any more there. I tend to think that it's just the way they master stuff and it's deliberate. It's a shame because I really like the music.
It seems like a pattern that you continue buying music from labels or genres that you've already have had issues with or just disliked the music. Then complaining about it here at AVS.

The same with not having a problem with returning music if it doesn't appeal to you .
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I'm buying this just for the 5.1 mix. If I end up not liking it, I'll just send the whole shebang back to Amazon for a refund. They're good about stuff like that.
Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where Kramer claims companies just "write off" returns or "missing" items. Probably just a "write off" for Amazon . It could be that you're now "blacklisted" in the music industry for being a "serial returner" .


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post #39 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I demand quality. I don't just accept inferior products because some armchair expert at a forum tells me it's good. That was one of my mistakes here... assuming that there must be something I had set wrong on my system. That was the advice of all the "experts" at QQ. Someone posted a spectrum analysis showing the exact same thing I was saying and they told him there was something wrong with his system too. Well, now I've dotted every i and crossed every t and the problem is definitely in the mixing and/or mastering, not my system. That's what I get for paying attention to people who haven't even heard the disc I'm talking about. "Won't get fooled again" to quote that old dinosaur rock song.

If you think that not having much of any sound below 80Hz is fine, then you should order up a storm from Dutton Vocalion. The problem is, I like the music they release a lot better than I like the music Steven Wilson releases, but I like the quality of Steven Wilson's releases better than the thin sounding ones for Dutton Vocalion. This is the problem I have with multichannel music. The percentage of mediocrity is way too high. For every Madman on the Water or The Nightfly that have both great sound and great music, there are a dozen with either lousy sound or lousy music. I love great music. I like good sound. I'd kinda like to have both of those things at once. Call me crazy, but it's just the way I feel.

If you can find a multichannel release from Dutton Vocalion that isn't band limited to 80Hz to 10kHz, please let me know. I'm through with experimenting. Better yet, if someone else has something to suggest, step down and let them make a suggestion. You aren't required to reply. I've told you that before, but I thought you were interested in being helpful in this thread. Another mistake on my part.

Last edited by sworth; 08-16-2017 at 05:15 PM.
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post #40 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I demand quality. I don't just accept inferior products because someone at a forum tells me it's good. If you think that not having much of any sound below 80Hz is fine, then you should order up a storm from Dutton Vocalion. The problem is, I like the music they release a lot better than I like the music Steven Wilson releases, and I like the quality of Steven Wilson's releases better than the thin sounding ones for Dutton Vocalion.

This is the problem I have with multichannel music. The percentage of mediocrity is way too high. For every Madman on the Water or The Nightfly that have great sound and great music, there are a dozen with either lousy sound or lousy music. I love great music. I like good sound. I'd kinda like to have both of those things at once. Call me crazy, but it's the way I feel.

If you can find a multichannel release from Dutton Vocalion that isn't band limited to 80Hz to 10kHz, please let me know. I'm through with experimenting.
Did you ever think that maybe it's an isolated issue with the titles you bought possibly limitations of the original quad tapes? Maybe DV did the best they could with what was available. I strongly suggest you do more research on the music you're buying. If you don't do any research then you shouldn't complain as it's all on you. I try to research all music I buy but on occasion buy without any research. If that music happens to be subpar as far as SQ or music content then shame on me for not doing my home work. It gets to a point where one has to take some responsibility for what they buy. It doesn't seem like you're willing to do that.

Oh I'm sure you'll be the first one I'll let know when I find some great sounding DV SACDs . Of course why would I as you've already stated "I don't just accept inferior products because someone at a forum tells me it's good" .

As hard as I'd try I couldn't make this sh*t up .

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post #41 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you ever think that maybe it's an isolated issue with the titles you bought possibly limitations of the original quad tapes?
I've bought six titles and they all have this problem. That doesn't sound like an isolated issue to me.

Dutton Vocalion says that the Stokowski disc was mixed to quad by them using the original multitrack master. I gave you a link to the product page where it said that. They claim it didn't come from a quad master. I don't believe that by the way. I think they did take it from a quad master... probably a 1/4 inch consumer open reel tape. That would explain the problems with it. In any case, I compared their quad to the stereo CD of the same title and the CD sounds MUCH better. There. I'm helping you do your research. I have heard these Dutton Vocalion discs and I'm sharing the info with you so you can make an informed purchase. You won't get that anywhere else... yet.

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post #42 of 140 Old 08-16-2017, 05:44 PM
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I've bought six titles and they all have this problem. That doesn't sound like an isolated issue to me.

Dutton Vocalion says that the Stokowski disc was mixed to quad by them using the original multitrack master. I gave you a link to the product page where it said that. They claim it didn't come from a quad master. I don't believe that by the way. I think they did take it from a quad master... probably a 1/4 inch consumer open reel tape. That would explain the problems with it. In any case, I compared their quad to the stereo CD of the same title and the CD sounds MUCH better. There. I'm helping you do your research. I have heard these Dutton Vocalion discs and I'm sharing the info with you so you can make an informed purchase. You won't get that anywhere else... yet.
Let me get this straight, you said earlier "I don't just accept inferior products because someone at a forum tells me it's good (or bad)" but I'm supposed to accept your input. No thanks, I'll solicit opinions from those without an axe to grind . You haven't heard the three SACDs I just bought from DV. I have a feeling they're going to sound excellent .

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Just in from over at the QQ forum.....

So, I happen to have this recording on RBCD as well - it's on the 14 CD "Stokowski Stereo Collection 1954-1975" set (still under $30 and highly recommended - many of the CDs are Dolby Surround encoded, although I don't think the relevant ones are: https://www.amazon.com/Leopold-Stoko.../dp/B006ZJJ70O)

I was kind of prepared to make certain allowances for the D-V version. The Stereo Collection was a spare no expense collection released in 1997, when the tapes were in this case just over 20 years old (the 2012 reissue is all the same transfers). However, on sitting down and listening to both versions, I only had one reaction - what on earth is the poster at AVS talking about?

The D-V version is leaps and bounds over the RBCD, and I listened to the CD version both in 2-channel and Dolby PLII surround. Plenty of low bass in the beginning and throughout the 5 minutes of Komm Susser Tod. The only conclusion I can reach is that the original poster is a bass freak who is being stymied from using his sub by the fact that the SACD is authored in 5.1, with an empty subwoofer channel.

In other words...the D-V version is significantly ahead of Sony's RBCD version. Buy it.


http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...l=1#post342626

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post #44 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 05:28 AM
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A member over at the QQ forum posted a frequency map of the right rear channel from the Stokowski DV SACD. I'm not very knowledgeable on reading these maps but it appears that there is bass content below 80Hz. The QQ member states that there's not a lot of sub 80Hz content but certainly not silent.

Frequency map: http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...1&d=1502948959

Post from QQ: http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...l=1#post342650

I'm currently listening to the 4.0 quad mix of the Return to Forever Musicmagic DV SACD and it sounds excellent . Plenty of bass as my subs are showing plenty of activity with a crossover setting of 80Hz. I set my Oppo 105D to DSD which disables bass management and Dirac. With the volume cranked there is plenty of bass especially from the rear speakers. Overall the SQ of the 4.0 quad mix of Musicmagic SACD is excellent. A very nice balance from front to rear and Chick Corea's piano is floating right in the front center of my room. The mix definitely has a nice fill across the front speakers almost taking on a effect of activity from the center as with a 5.0 mix. Although the Oppo shows the channel type in PCM and DSD as 5.1 it's definitely a 4.0 quad mix with no center channel content. I would definitely recommend the Musicmagic DV SACD especially if one is jazz fusion and quad fan. I'm hoping that DV will release more 4.0 quad titles with a strong suggestion for Santana's Borboletta and Welcome albums .

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/pro...prod=CDSML8528

Now I'm listening to the Coltrane and Santana Illuminations 4.0 quad mix. As with the Musicmagic SACD the 4.0 quad mix is excellent with no lack of bass issues at all. I'm a huge fan of Santana especially his earlier albums and this album fits very nicely from that era (1974). I highly recommend the Illuminations DV SACD as well !

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post #45 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess it is leaps and bounds ahead from 80Hz to 10kHz. I have nearly 10,000 classical CDs. I know what an orchestra is supposed to sound like. Noticing that there is almost no content below 80Hz doesn't make me a bass freak.

If people can't even recognize when a disc has severe rolloffs, how useful are their opinions? Did he really directly compare, because the CD version doesn't have the overdubbed parts in the rear channel. He didn't mention that. I did a direct A/B comparison.

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I'm currently listening to the 4.0 quad mix of the Return to Forever Musicmagic DV SACD and it sounds excellent . Plenty of bass as my subs are showing plenty of activity with a crossover setting of 80Hz. I set my Oppo 105D to DSD which disables bass management and Dirac.
If you disable bass management, your subs aren't putting out any sound at all. There is no LFE on these discs. Turn your bass management and sub on. Play the SACD, listen to what the sub is putting out (nothing), boost the volume of the sub to maximum volume and check again. Try the same with any other SACD and note the difference. It's possible that the problem might be limited to RCA discs. All of the titles I bought were RCA.
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post #46 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 08:43 AM
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I'm not a member at QQ [don't wanna sign up either] so I can't view any attachments is there any way to import them here?
Some of the posts there allude to a valid possibility that they might used vinyl masters which were known for reduced bass all around because of the limitations of that format. While it is impossible to determine if such a master was used without thorough measured data, however if it was used than it would be "improper" indeed for a digital format no doubt.

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post #47 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post



If you disable bass management, your subs aren't putting out any sound at all. There is no LFE on these discs. Turn your bass management and sub on. Play the SACD, listen to what the sub is putting out (nothing), boost the volume of the sub to maximum volume and check again. Try the same with any other SACD and note the difference. It's possible that the problem might be limited to RCA discs. All of the titles I bought were RCA.
He did both it's obvious he couldn't replicate the issues you had with discs/titles you have. Do you have the Return To Forever disc from DV?
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post #48 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I have six Dutton Vocalion SACDs... two Mancinis, Floyd Cramer, Hugo Montenegro, Stokowski and Ray Davies (not that Ray Davies). I've listened to all of them but Davies but I've only played around with the settings on Mancini/Severinson and Stokowski. Those are the two I'm most interested in musically.

Like you, I suspected that they might have used a master with the RIAA curve applied, but I was told that that RIAA pre-processing was performed live while the lacquer was being cut. It wasn't ever laid down to tape that way. Dutton claims to have used the original multitrack masters. I don't know how their version ended up with overdubs of woodwinds solos that aren't on the CD though. This would have been recorded on four track tape right? Assuming a stereo spread and perhaps a center mic, that would leave one track open for overdubs I suppose. The way the channels are laid out, it really doesn't sound like they were working with more than four tracks. Front right doesn't have any unique content. It kind of has the sound of those old "Reprocessed for Stereo" LPs from the 1960s at times- different frequency bands split between channels- like the violins smeared across the left wall.

Maybe they might have been working from a quad consumer open reel tape. Maybe even one of the ones done at 3 3/4ips. That would explain the steep high end attenuation- noise reduction to get rid of tape hiss. I don't know why the bottom two octaves are missing. Maybe they were filtering a rumble too and went overboard. Perhaps that band limited thing is a "house sound" at Dutton. I can see someone liking stuff sounding crisp and thin like that. It sure wreaks havoc with kettle drums and basses though.

One thing I noticed comparing Komm Susse Tod was that the CD started with a low frequency pedal note that went for a few seconds before the strings came in. In the quad version you couldn't hear the pedal bass line and the strings started much sooner. Perhaps those frequencies were almost completely missing from the master they used (because of the noise reduction settings?) and since the engineer didn't even know it, he set the fade in to where the strings came in. Hard to say for sure without being there. But knowing the sound of RCA's records in this era, I'm sure there was information below 80Hz.

Edit: I just noticed the mention of the spectrum chart. I'd like to see that too. However right rear isn't the best channel to check. Right front is where the basses are in an orchestra. The rears on this are mostly just added reverb and overdubbed insert fills. Also, there is a little info below 80Hz. It's attenuated by about -20dB and it rolls off not far from 80Hz. I have no way to measure that, but I would guess it starts rolling off by about 75Hz. Above 80Hz, the recording is fine. I'd be interested to see the frequency spectrum for right front in the high frequencies too. That's where the triangle rolls are and it would tell us where the high end drops out.

Last edited by sworth; 08-17-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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post #49 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 12:32 PM
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I guess it is leaps and bounds ahead from 80Hz to 10kHz. I have nearly 10,000 classical CDs. I know what an orchestra is supposed to sound like. Noticing that there is almost no content below 80Hz doesn't make me a bass freak.

If people can't even recognize when a disc has severe rolloffs, how useful are their opinions? Did he really directly compare, because the CD version doesn't have the overdubbed parts in the rear channel. He didn't mention that. I did a direct A/B comparison.

If you disable bass management, your subs aren't putting out any sound at all. There is no LFE on these discs. Turn your bass management and sub on. Play the SACD, listen to what the sub is putting out (nothing), boost the volume of the sub to maximum volume and check again. Try the same with any other SACD and note the difference. It's possible that the problem might be limited to RCA discs. All of the titles I bought were RCA.
I really don't care how many classical CDs you have. Whether a person is knowledgeable if a certain disc has severe rolloffs or not doesn't make that person unable to give a valid review on the SQ of a specific music title. I'm sure if someone with minimal listening experience posted they heard no bass below 80Hz you'd be happy with that opinion I'm sure. Funny how that works .

I'm well aware that there is no LFE track on a 4.0 quad mix. Maybe you should go back and reread post #44. Then tell me where in that post I stated that I was getting bass output from my subs with bass management disabled. Guess what...... you won't find it as I stated the bass was strong from my rear speakers which are full range with bass management disabled. Also you missed where I clearly stated that with the Return to Forever Musicmagic 4.0 quad mix my subs were showing plenty of activity with a crossover setting of 80Hz. Did you even read my post? HELLO ! But of course because you own 10,000 classical CDs you're smarter than the rest of us. Priceless .

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post #50 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 12:40 PM
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I'm not a member at QQ [don't wanna sign up either] so I can't view any attachments is there any way to import them here?
Some of the posts there allude to a valid possibility that they might used vinyl masters which were known for reduced bass all around because of the limitations of that format. While it is impossible to determine if such a master was used without thorough measured data, however if it was used than it would be "improper" indeed for a digital format no doubt.
I'm sure you have a valid reason but why don't you want to join the QQ forum? It's an excellent forum IMO especially to get information on upcoming multichannel releases and many member reviews with polls showing those ratings. I was very hesitant to join the Steve Hoffman forum a few years back as it's a very fast moving forum and the knowledge level of some members is intimidating. But I finally joined and I'm so glad I did as I've learned so much about music in regard to mastering, mixing and which versions of specific titles are the best. I still consider my knowledge to be average at best but I'm a much better informed music buyer due to joining SH .

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post #51 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Go out in the sunshine please. That's where I'm headed.
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Go out in the sunshine please. That's where I'm headed.
Went to the beach for three hours this afternoon and then jumped on my paddleboard for a few laps of the pond. Not sure what the has to do with your inability to comprehend my earlier post..

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Every time you feel the need to reply to my posts, resist the urge and go to the beach. It will do you good.

I'm taking a break from the Dutton Vocalion stuff tonight. I have another disc of War of the Worlds to listen to. Sound quality on that one is excellent.

Last edited by sworth; 08-17-2017 at 06:56 PM.
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post #54 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 07:08 PM
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Every time you feel the need to reply to my posts, resist the urge and go to the beach. It will do you good.
Why do that when I can do both . It seems that you dislike the fact that there are some here and on other forums that have a different viewpoint than you have. Also when you post something that is totally incorrect that for one to correct you is an issue as well. You certainly made quite an impression at the QQ forum. I really think you should join the Steve Hoffman forum as it would be interesting to see you posting over there with your expertise and all .

What I find really odd is that you said you have nearly 10,000 classical CDs. With that I would assume you're a huge fan of the genre. But you post here quite often that you're dissatisfied with the amount of multichannel music available. Classical music makes up a vast majority of SACDs being sold with many of them multichannel. I would be ecstatic if I was a fan of classical music as there are so many multichannel SACDs available. I guess even that doesn't please you.

What really bothers me is that you started this thread to really slam Dutton Vocalion and then went after the QQ forum as well. If everyone here took your opinions as fact no one would buy DV SACDs as you portray them as a bad company. That is so far from factual it's sad. A company like DV is far from perfect but they are making an effort to produce and market SACDs many with multichannel mixes for very fair prices. I appreciate their effort and if I happen to get a bad sounding disc from them so be it. I'm not going to start threads here and on other forums slamming them as you have here and over at the QQ forum.

Bill

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Last edited by Bill Mac; 08-17-2017 at 07:44 PM.
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post #55 of 140 Old 08-17-2017, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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You're commenting on discs you haven't heard. Limit yourself to what you know.

I will support people who listen with their own ears and tell the truth.

I'll tell you my opinion on classical multichannel recordings and Dutton Vocalion tomorrow when I have time.

Last edited by sworth; 08-17-2017 at 11:22 PM.
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post #56 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 05:07 AM
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You're commenting on discs you haven't heard. Limit yourself to what you know.

I will support people who listen with their own ears and tell the truth.

I'll tell you my opinion on classical multichannel recordings and Dutton Vocalion tomorrow when I have time.
Actually I'm not commenting on discs I haven't "heard" but about posts you've made here. You talk about the truth. Didn't you post earlier in this thread.....
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I posted about it to Quadraphonic Quad and another person replied posting a frequency spectrum chart showing one of the songs with almost no content below 80Hz. The moderators deleted both of our posts and sent me a PM saying that I wasn't allowed to post on the subject. I think they have some sort of business relationship with the label. That's why I'm posting here, not there.
Do you have any proof that Quadraphonic Quad has a "business relationship" with Dutton Vocalion? I would take a wild guess and say no you do not. But you posted that here on AVS to make the QQ forum look bad because they deleted some of your posts over there. When JonUrban who started QQ posted this here.....
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First off, this is JonUrban from QQ. QQ is my forum and no one that I know of has ever in the entire 15 years of the forum every taken any money from anyone for anything. We/I support all companies who promote multichannel and do so without compensation or bias.
You offered no proof of that claim or worse no apology to JonUrban for claiming the QQ forum was taking money from Dutton Vocalion. That's wrong, very wrong. Basically you were upset that your posts were deleted so you lash out at QQ with a claim that has no validity. In essence your posts here if not countered could have damaged Dutton Vocalion and the QQ forums reputations. But you don't care about that at all.

If you wish people to tell the truth shouldn't that start with you? As far as I'm concerned after posting that claim and your subsequent posts you have zero credibility here on AVS or any other A/V forum IMO.

Bill

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post #57 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 07:02 AM
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My only issue is that wished they'd get here sooner . 14 days now and counting. Maybe today!
Did your DV SACDs arrive? If they did what are your thoughts on them if you had a chance to listen to them?

I started listening to the Pure Prairie League SACD and the 4.0 quad mix sounds very good. Kind of a cross between easy listening and country almost a bit like early Eagles music. Very nice so far .

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post #58 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Last night I played the Ray Davies disc. WHOA! Totally different story. This disc is spectacular, GREAT sound with full, natural sounding bass and sparkling highs. The mix is very imaginative with lots of activity in the rear channels and even some immersive bits (which I haven't ever heard in a quad recording before). Probably the best sounding quad recording that I've got. The music is goofy- lots of 70s TV theme songs done 70's hip- but it's a lot of fun. No complaints at all about this one.

Since this one was so good, I'm going to go back to the other three and listen to those again and see exactly what's up with each of them. This gives me hope that there actually are good Dutton Vocalion SACDs. They aren't all bad. It would really help if people online were able to accurately review discs, so I wouldn't be going on blind luck. The Stoki and Mancini discs are blatantly band limited, and anyone familiar with the music should immediately notice that weird fills have been added to the music on the Bach transcriptions. Glossing over stuff like that to be all Rah Rah for the medium doesn't serve anyone.
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post #59 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I guess it is leaps and bounds ahead from 80Hz to 10kHz. I have nearly 10,000 classical CDs. I know what an orchestra is supposed to sound like. Noticing that there is almost no content below 80Hz doesn't make me a bass freak.

If people can't even recognize when a disc has severe rolloffs, how useful are their opinions? Did he really directly compare, because the CD version doesn't have the overdubbed parts in the rear channel. He didn't mention that. I did a direct A/B comparison.



If you disable bass management, your subs aren't putting out any sound at all. There is no LFE on these discs. Turn your bass management and sub on. Play the SACD, listen to what the sub is putting out (nothing), boost the volume of the sub to maximum volume and check again. Try the same with any other SACD and note the difference. It's possible that the problem might be limited to RCA discs. All of the titles I bought were RCA.
10,000 CDs- Man, I want to hang with you somtime.
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post #60 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Did your DV SACDs arrive? If they did what are your thoughts on them if you had a chance to listen to them?

I started listening to the Pure Prairie League SACD and the 4.0 quad mix sounds very good. Kind of a cross between easy listening and country almost a bit like early Eagles music. Very nice so far .

Bill
Bill Mac- when the discs arrive, in addition to the reviews, let us know how long the delivery process?
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