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post #61 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 02:05 PM
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As above- sometime- corrected.
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post #62 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Bill Mac- when the discs arrive, in addition to the reviews, let us know how long the delivery process?
JA,

The Return to Forever, Santana/Coltrane and Pure Prairie League DV SACDs arrived on Wednesday. I ordered the SACDs on 7/31 so that's a little over two weeks from the UK to Maine. I consider that time frame to be about normal from the UK.

If you check out post #44 in this thread I gave a brief review of the Return to Forever and Santana/Coltrane SACDs. I'm far from articulate with my review thoughts but both SACDs are highly recommenced! I've listened to a few tracks from the Pure Prairie League SACD and that sounds quite good as well. All listening impressions were with the 4.0 quad mix only. I think for the cost the Dutton Vocalion SACDs are a great deal .

Bill
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post #63 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
10,000 CDs- Man, I want to hang with you somtime.
Ha! You'd have to camp out a while if you want to hear all of them! And you'd have to move in for a couple of years to get through all my LPs and 78s. I don't think a life span is long enough to get through all of that and my videos too. I'm an unabashed accumulator of media.
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post #64 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 03:33 PM
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What are the mastering credits on the so-called "bad" SACDs?

What sounds possible is how the way Dutton Vocalion authors their quad SACDs doesn't jive with sworth's system for whatever reason. It's possibly a bass management quirk than a serious problem.

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post #65 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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That's what I thought too, but I tried every trick I could think of to unlock the sub bass... I turned bass management on, turned it off and went full range all around, switched from DSD to PCM on my Oppo... almost nothing below 80Hz. No one who owns these two discs has reported that they did the test with the sub that I suggested. I suspect it sounds like this on all systems, just some people don't care about having a full range bass. I also suspect that most of Dutton Vocalion's customers don't listen to a lot of classical music. No one but me seems to have noticed the overdubbing, and to anyone familiar with Stokowski's Bach transcriptions, it is blatantly obvious. It's also weird because the overdubs are close miked fairly dry, while the orchestra is recorded from a distance in a hall. You never hear that sort of thing in classical music recordings.

Here are the credits for mixing and mastering...

STOKOWSKI CONDUCTS BACH – THE GREAT TRANSCRIPTIONS
The original LP ARL1 0880 (1975) STEREO/ARD1 0880 QUADRAPHONIC

GÖTTERDÄMMERUNG: ORCHESTRAL HIGHLIGHTS
From original LP ARL1 1317 (1976) STEREO/REMIXED IN QUADRAPHONIC SOUND by Michael J. Dutton from the original analogue multi-track tapes

I don't see any note on mastering for the Mancini Severinson albums. I'll check the booklet this weekend.

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post #66 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
JA,

The Return to Forever, Santana/Coltrane and Pure Prairie League DV SACDs arrived on Wednesday. I ordered the SACDs on 7/31 so that's a little over two weeks from the UK to Maine. I consider that time frame to be about normal from the UK.

If you check out post #44 in this thread I gave a brief review of the Return to Forever and Santana/Coltrane SACDs. I'm far from articulate with my review thoughts but both SACDs are highly recommenced! I've listened to a few tracks from the Pure Prairie League SACD and that sounds quite good as well. All listening impressions were with the 4.0 quad mix only. I think for the cost the Dutton Vocalion SACDs are a great deal .

Bill
the easiest way to review and describe Jazz CDs is to listen for separation of all instruments. Are the sounds of all instruments accurate?
Is there "air" around each instrument? Cluttered sound? Clear sound? Decay of Piano notes and drum kit cymbals?
This will get ya started Bill Mac
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post #67 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Ha! You'd have to camp out a while if you want to hear all of them! And you'd have to move in for a couple of years to get through all my LPs and 78s. I don't think a life span is long enough to get through all of that and my videos too. I'm an unabashed accumulator of media.
My goal would be to someday own 10,000 CDs (at least) in my collection as well.
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post #68 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 07:01 PM
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I know Warner Japan had an issue at one point actually doubling bass frequencies on their multi-channel SACDs. The format wasn't initially designed with bass management in mind, which is why the reference SACD system design had full-range speakers for every channel. Though most of these issues had been ironed out over the last decade.
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post #69 of 140 Old 08-18-2017, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
the easiest way to review and describe Jazz CDs is to listen for separation of all instruments. Are the sounds of all instruments accurate?
Is there "air" around each instrument? Cluttered sound? Clear sound? Decay of Piano notes and drum kit cymbals?
Also listen for the upper harmonics on cymbals and the organic pluck sound of an upright bass. Snare drums are often miked poorly, making them sound like dull thuds rather than crisp hits with lots of impact. This is particularly common in rock albums from the 70s. Steven Wilson knows how to correct for this in the mix. Comparing his remixes to the original album, the drums are almost always better sounding. (Vocals can be the other way around.) It's also desirable in jazz to have a clear soundstage. Close your eyes and imagine the players positioned in front of you. They shouldn't shift around in a theoretical soundstage like Pink Floyd. They should feel like they are right there in front of you and you can reach out and touch them.

It's very good to listen with a critical ear and learn to express what you hear clearly in words. You don't learn anything unless you turn your brain on and analyze what you're hearing, both musically and when it comes to engineering.

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I know Warner Japan had an issue at one point actually doubling bass frequencies on their multi-channel SACDs. The format wasn't initially designed with bass management in mind, which is why the reference SACD system design had full-range speakers for every channel. Though most of these issues had been ironed out over the last decade.
Bass is tricky. There is a 10dB difference between LFE channels intended for movies and LFE for music. That caused problems early on too.

There's also a nasty little trick that's used by some engineers when they remaster... They take the bass frequencies and pitch correct them a full octave lower and paste them over the top of the original recording. This doubles up the bass sound and extends it an octave lower. I have some Sinatra CDs that have been monkeyed with to make the upright bass sound like an electric bass. They push a certain range of frequencies so hard, it covers up the frequencies around it that give a plucked bass its natural character. Awful. That shouldn't be a consideration with these discs though. RCA was state of the art in the 70s. In fact every single one of their stereo recordings were FFRR from the very first ones in 1954.
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Last edited by sworth; 08-18-2017 at 07:18 PM.
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post #70 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
the easiest way to review and describe Jazz CDs is to listen for separation of all instruments. Are the sounds of all instruments accurate?
Is there "air" around each instrument? Cluttered sound? Clear sound? Decay of Piano notes and drum kit cymbals?
This will get ya started Bill Mac
JA,

That's pretty much how I critique music for my own reference. As far as instruments being accurate it's a bit more of a challenge for me. I'm not a musician and really have no feel for how a piano should really sound as far as the decay of specific notes. The biggest factors I look for is separation of all instruments, clarity, width and depth of the soundstage and dynamic range. With multichannel music it'd be the content in the surrounds whether it's just ambiance, discrete and placement of specific instruments.

Several recent multichannel releases that really disappointed me were Jeff Beck's Wired (JSACD) and the Allman Brothers Idlewild South (Blu-ray). The Wired multichannel mix was taken from a flawed recording (per the engineer who was quoted as saying "I don't think it was one of my finer moments"). There's obvious distortion at certain points in the mix and the level of separation through out the album varies due to the way the album was recorded. Wired is one of my all time favorite albums and was deeply disappointed with the multichannel mix.

Idlewild South is another one of my most favorite albums from my one of favorite bands of all times. The overall SQ of the multichannel mix is fine with great separation and clarity between all the instruments. What troubles me is the placement of the guitars. At times one of the lead guitars is in the left rear while the other is in the right front. It's the oddest placement for a multichannel mix that I own. I believe the multichannel mix was done recently and isn't an older quad mix updated to 5.1. It's so poorly mixed as far as instrument placement (IMO) that when I play the Blu-ray I just listen to it in hi-res stereo.

As I've been putting these thoughts down the Pure Prairie League DV 4.0 quad mix has been playing. It's a great mix with very good placement of the instruments and the surround content is very discrete which it should being a 4.0 quad mix. The level of separation, depth and clarity of the instruments is good but a bit flat especially the cymbals which I tend to focus on when critiquing music.

I'll never make it as a serious music critic but will give it my best shot and just give the impressions of the music as I hear it. Whether others agree with my assessments isn't really concern as we all have different tastes, gear, rooms and hearing. Those factors in my opinion of a specific title can lead someone else to have a totally opposite opinion than mine. But that's cool .

Bill
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post #71 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Also listen for the upper harmonics on cymbals and the organic pluck sound of an upright bass. Snare drums are often miked poorly, making them sound like dull thuds rather than crisp hits with lots of impact. This is particularly common in rock albums from the 70s. Steven Wilson knows how to correct for this in the mix. Comparing his remixes to the original album, the drums are almost always better sounding. (Vocals can be the other way around.) It's also desirable in jazz to have a clear soundstage. Close your eyes and imagine the players positioned in front of you. They shouldn't shift around in a theoretical soundstage like Pink Floyd. They should feel like they are right there in front of you and you can reach out and touch them.

It's very good to listen with a critical ear and learn to express what you hear clearly in words. You don't learn anything unless you turn your brain on and analyze what you're hearing, both musically and when it comes to engineering.



Bass is tricky. There is a 10dB difference between LFE channels intended for movies and LFE for music. That caused problems early on too.

There's also a nasty little trick that's used by some engineers when they remaster... They take the bass frequencies and pitch correct them a full octave lower and paste them over the top of the original recording. This doubles up the bass sound and extends it an octave lower. I have some Sinatra CDs that have been monkeyed with to make the upright bass sound like an electric bass. They push a certain range of frequencies so hard, it covers up the frequencies around it that give a plucked bass its natural character. Awful. That shouldn't be a consideration with these discs though. RCA was state of the art in the 70s. In fact every single one of their stereo recordings were FFRR from the very first ones in 1954.
Excellent tips-
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post #72 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
JA,

That's pretty much how I critique music for my own reference. As far as instruments being accurate it's a bit more of a challenge for me. I'm not a musician and really have no feel for how a piano should really sound as far as the decay of specific notes. The biggest factors I look for is separation of all instruments, clarity, width and depth of the soundstage and dynamic range. With multichannel music it'd be the content in the surrounds whether it's just ambiance, discrete and placement of specific instruments.

Several recent multichannel releases that really disappointed me were Jeff Beck's Wired (JSACD) and the Allman Brothers Idlewild South (Blu-ray). The Wired multichannel mix was taken from a flawed recording (per the engineer who was quoted as saying "I don't think it was one of my finer moments"). There's obvious distortion at certain points in the mix and the level of separation through out the album varies due to the way the album was recorded. Wired is one of my all time favorite albums and was deeply disappointed with the multichannel mix.

Idlewild South is another one of my most favorite albums from my one of favorite bands of all times. The overall SQ of the multichannel mix is fine with great separation and clarity between all the instruments. What troubles me is the placement of the guitars. At times one of the lead guitars is in the left rear while the other is in the right front. It's the oddest placement for a multichannel mix that I own. I believe the multichannel mix was done recently and isn't an older quad mix updated to 5.1. It's so poorly mixed as far as instrument placement (IMO) that when I play the Blu-ray I just listen to it in hi-res stereo.

As I've been putting these thoughts down the Pure Prairie League DV 4.0 quad mix has been playing. It's a great mix with very good placement of the instruments and the surround content is very discrete which it should being a 4.0 quad mix. The level of separation, depth and clarity of the instruments is good but a bit flat especially the cymbals which I tend to focus on when critiquing music.

I'll never make it as a serious music critic but will give it my best shot and just give the impressions of the music as I hear it. Whether others agree with my assessments isn't really concern as we all have different tastes, gear, rooms and hearing. Those factors in my opinion of a specific title can lead someone else to have a totally opposite opinion than mine. But that's cool .

Bill
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post #73 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 08:22 AM
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As above-
as much as I enjoy Classic Rock, most of this music and these albums, were never meant for surround sound. My thinking, it must be a difficult endeavor trying to make an original 2-channel recording jive into a multi-channel mix for surround sound.
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post #74 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 08:44 AM
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As above-
as much as I enjoy Classic Rock, most of this music and these albums, were never meant for surround sound. My thinking, it must be a difficult endeavor trying to make an original 2-channel recording jive into a multi-channel mix for surround sound.
Some do it better than others. I'm sure some people view it as a gimmick, but if done well, it's a very enjoyable immersive experience regardless of the original intent of the recording.

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post #75 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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The problem with mixing old rock albums to multichannel is maintaining authenticity. We have a lot of these albums burned into our skulls from repeated playings over the years. A change in balance or EQ might be fine for someone who is coming to the album fresh, but for someone who knows the music like the back of their hand it can be irritating. A good example of this is the Rolling Stones SACDs. The remastered tracks are OK, but the remixed ones just aren't the same at all. The Stones recorded quickly and directly with the focus on energy. They used distortion deliberately. The cleaned up tracks sound wimpy compared to the originals. Street Fighting Man is a perfect example. The original version has jangly wire reverbs and a telephone futz on Jaggers' vocals. The mix is dense and raw. The remixed version is a lot cleaner, but the life is sucked out of it. The vocals don't have the EQed edge any more, and the wire reverbs are replaced by wet, slick digital reverbs that sound a lot softer. The Stones mono box set is much better sounding than a lot of the multichannel SACDs.

I suspect that even if the PR says that the original artists were involved in remixes, they really don't have much involvement except to sign the royalty check. But when the remix follows the spirit of the original mix carefully, the results are great like the Elton John, Steely Dan and Beatles remixes.

Last edited by sworth; 08-19-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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post #76 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 10:31 AM
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I suspect I know what your problem is. True QUAD Recordings are 4.0 type with NOTHING on the LFE Channel. So if your L/R Speakers are set to "LARGE" in AVR Setup, then you are relying SOLELY on them to TRY to generate Low Freq Sounds....which requires a truly LARGE Woofer of say 12-in or more. Changing L/C/R to "SMALL" can quickly solve this issue....BUT there is a better way which can leave those settings at "LARGE":

Many AVR's have the ability to send Low Frequency Sounds to BOTH L/R and the LFE....which enables Sub-Woofer even with Stereo (or Quad) source material. IF you can't figure it out, let me know the make and model number of your AVR and I can look it up for you. By adjusting just the LFE Level Control in the AVR, you can then easily CONTROL how much BASS you want, depending on individual program material and your TASTE.
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post #77 of 140 Old 08-19-2017, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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My AVR is a Yamaha RXV671. When I set all the speakers to small and a crossover at 80Hz, a tiny bit of sound comes out of the sub, but not enough to hear. I tried boosting that tiny bit of sound as far as I could +16dB and it still didn't sound right. The bass coming out was still too low and was all in a narrow range. I tried setting all my speakers to large to defeat bass management and it was very thin sounding still. I have full range speakers all around. The woofers on the mains are 15 inches. I'm at a loss. These two discs sound thin no matter how I have my system set.
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post #78 of 140 Old 08-20-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
The problem with mixing old rock albums to multichannel is maintaining authenticity. We have a lot of these albums burned into our skulls from repeated playings over the years. A change in balance or EQ might be fine for someone who is coming to the album fresh, but for someone who knows the music like the back of their hand it can be irritating. A good example of this is the Rolling Stones SACDs. The remastered tracks are OK, but the remixed ones just aren't the same at all. The Stones recorded quickly and directly with the focus on energy. They used distortion deliberately. The cleaned up tracks sound wimpy compared to the originals. Street Fighting Man is a perfect example. The original version has jangly wire reverbs and a telephone futz on Jaggers' vocals. The mix is dense and raw. The remixed version is a lot cleaner, but the life is sucked out of it. The vocals don't have the EQed edge any more, and the wire reverbs are replaced by wet, slick digital reverbs that sound a lot softer. The Stones mono box set is much better sounding than a lot of the multichannel SACDs.

I suspect that even if the PR says that the original artists were involved in remixes, they really don't have much involvement except to sign the royalty check. But when the remix follows the spirit of the original mix carefully, the results are great like the Elton John, Steely Dan and Beatles remixes.
Right On! sworth- those (read most) albums were never meant for anything other than 2channel listening
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Did your DV SACDs arrive? If they did what are your thoughts on them if you had a chance to listen to them?

I started listening to the Pure Prairie League SACD and the 4.0 quad mix sounds very good. Kind of a cross between easy listening and country almost a bit like early Eagles music. Very nice so far .

Bill
Both Pure Prairie League and Santana's Illumination came over the weekend.

I just finished listening to PPL and really enjoyed both the music and the mix. County rock with elements of that west coast sound, maybe some Americana. Interesting that you mention the Eagles. The liner notes indicate that the producer for the two albums was instrumental in putting together Linda Ronstadt's early backing band. A group of musicians that went on to become the Eagles.

Anyway, I found the quad mix really engaging and I found the mix much more immersive then a lot of quad mixes.
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post #81 of 140 Old 08-21-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Did your DV SACDs arrive? If they did what are your thoughts on them if you had a chance to listen to them?

I started listening to the Pure Prairie League SACD and the 4.0 quad mix sounds very good. Kind of a cross between easy listening and country almost a bit like early Eagles music. Very nice so far .

Bill
Both Pure Prairie League and Santana's Illumination came over the weekend, just under three weeks.

I just finished listening to PPL and really enjoyed both the music and the mix. County rock with elements of that west coast sound, maybe some Americana. Interesting that you mention the Eagles. The liner notes indicate that the producer for the two albums was instrumental in putting together Linda Ronstadt's early backing band. A group of musicians that went on to become the Eagles.

Anyway, I found the quad mix really engaging and I found the mix much more immersive then a lot of quad mixes.
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post #82 of 140 Old 08-21-2017, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I take it that there's a good amount of sound coming out of your sub. If so, we can chalk up two good SACDs from Dutton Vocalion.
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post #83 of 140 Old 08-22-2017, 12:22 PM
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The liner notes indicate that the producer for the two albums was instrumental in putting together Linda Ronstadt's early backing band. A group of musicians that went on to become the Eagles.
Co-produced Boston's debut album too. Also produced music by the Chipmunks, the Simpsons, and the Muppets.
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Last edited by ematcion; 08-22-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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post #84 of 140 Old 08-22-2017, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ematcion View Post
Also produced music by the Chipmunks
Wow! I produced an album for the Chipmunks too. I never heard his name mentioned. It must have been after my time.
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post #85 of 140 Old 08-23-2017, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I think you'll be fine. I usually figure at least 2-3 weeks for any music shipped from the UK.

Bill
Wow, I am spoiled.

Presto Classical: Order on a Saturday, get a notice Monday it's in transit, check the mail box Saturday, it's there. One week, most times.

Each business is different.

Too bad Presto Classical does not carry the things most posters here look to buy.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #86 of 140 Old 08-23-2017, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Wow, I am spoiled.
I would hope you'd have quicker ship times from the UK as you're in the UK . The same applies for those of us in the US for shipping within the US. Where it really matters is when buying used music within the US. I feel bad for those from outside of the US trying to buy music as shipping is insanely high !

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE (preamp), SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Marantz SA-10, Oppo UDP-205, UDP-203, BDP-105, BDP-103, BDP-93, BDP-83, Panasonic TC-P60GT50, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #87 of 140 Old 08-24-2017, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I would hope you'd have quicker ship times from the UK as you're in the UK . The same applies for those of us in the US for shipping within the US. Where it really matters is when buying used music within the US. I feel bad for those from outside of the US trying to buy music as shipping is insanely high !

Bill
I am in NYC.

My avatar is from futuristic London. (as is my signature and other bio stuff)

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #88 of 140 Old 08-24-2017, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I am in NYC.

My avatar is from futuristic London. (as is my signature and other bio stuff)
OK. I guess it was the location of "Futuristic London" that threw me .

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE (preamp), SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Marantz SA-10, Oppo UDP-205, UDP-203, BDP-105, BDP-103, BDP-93, BDP-83, Panasonic TC-P60GT50, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #89 of 140 Old 08-28-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by weekendtoy View Post
Both Pure Prairie League and Santana's Illumination came over the weekend, just under three weeks.

I just finished listening to PPL and really enjoyed both the music and the mix. County rock with elements of that west coast sound, maybe some Americana. Interesting that you mention the Eagles. The liner notes indicate that the producer for the two albums was instrumental in putting together Linda Ronstadt's early backing band. A group of musicians that went on to become the Eagles.

Anyway, I found the quad mix really engaging and I found the mix much more immersive then a lot of quad mixes.
what gear including cabling is in your system?
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post #90 of 140 Old 08-29-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
My AVR is a Yamaha RXV671. When I set all the speakers to small and a crossover at 80Hz, a tiny bit of sound comes out of the sub, but not enough to hear. I tried boosting that tiny bit of sound as far as I could +16dB and it still didn't sound right. The bass coming out was still too low and was all in a narrow range. I tried setting all my speakers to large to defeat bass management and it was very thin sounding still. I have full range speakers all around. The woofers on the mains are 15 inches. I'm at a loss. These two discs sound thin no matter how I have my system set.
If you are only getting a TINY BIT of sound with all speakers set to SMALL, then I would conclude that something is WRONG/BROKEN in the AVR.....

Yamaha Manual wasn't very useful re whether it has a mode for Outputting Bass Freqs to BOTH L/R and Sub, so I guess it can't do that:
http://www.searspartsdirect.com/part...?manualIndex=0

Something else to try: At Front Panel, enable PURE DIRECT and see if there is an improvement in Bass. This temporarily DISABLES the YPAO (Room Equalization), Bass/Treble Tone Controls [Q: Are they at Zero???] and any other Digital Signal Processing that might be inadvertently causing your problem. You should ALSO walk around the room to see if your listening position just happens to be in a NULL Spot....worst case on SOME Low Freqs would be 1/2-way between L+R Walls while ALSO 1/2-way between Front+Rear Walls.....and absolute worst case with your Ears 1/2-way between Ceiling+Floor.....

Last edited by holl_ands; 08-29-2017 at 09:06 AM.
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