CDs Encoded in Dolby Matrixed Miultichannel - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 103 Old 03-25-2019, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
ALL DTS music discs are discrete multi-channel. They don't conform to the Compact Disc redbook (don't have the CDDA logo), so I don't refer to them as CDs. YMMV. The main difference between DTS music discs and DTS DVDs is the sampling rate: music discs were 44.1 kHz (which allowed them to use CD players as transports) and DVDs were 48 kHz.
So there's probably no way to tell the difference other than to read the fine print. I think my DTS discs are all DVDs. Some of them have menus too.
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post #62 of 103 Old 03-25-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
So there's probably no way to tell the difference other than to read the fine print.
Easy way to tell the difference: if it doesn't say DVD on it, then...
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post #63 of 103 Old 03-25-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
So there's probably no way to tell the difference other than to read the fine print. I think my DTS discs are all DVDs. Some of them have menus too.
DVD's containing DTS audio will carry a standard DVD logo, whereas CD's containing DTS audio will more often than not carry a 'DTS Entertainment' logo. Much like this one: -




Cheers
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post #64 of 103 Old 03-25-2019, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
So there's probably no way to tell the difference other than to read the fine print. I think my DTS discs are all DVDs. Some of them have menus too.
If you have DTS discs why not look at them to tell whether they are CDs or DVDs. Is it really that difficult to do?

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post #65 of 103 Old 03-25-2019, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I don't recognize that logo at all. Never knew there were two flavors of DTS discs.
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post #66 of 103 Old 03-25-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
And just to confuse matters even more...

It is also possible to encapsulate a multi-channel 44.1kHz Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio stream within a PCM audio track for playback on an audio CD

An AC3CD if you will...
That makes NO sense...if the data stream is 44.1 kHz Stereo PCM, then there is no "room" for additional DD5.1 data (AC3, typ. 448 or 640 kbps).....and CD Players would NOT decode it since a mixed data format would violate the Red Book Standard.

I think what you are TRYING to describe is simply the alternative "BITSTREAM" [aka SPDIF] format instead of PCM....which transfers Digital Audio in either AC3 or DTS [typ. 768 or 1500 kbps] format....and in some newer systems....Dolby Digital Plus (aka Compressed E-AC3):
https://en.wikipeda.org/wiki/S/PDIF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_...nsumer_devices

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post #67 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
That makes NO sense...if the data stream is 44.1 kHz Stereo PCM, then there is no "room" for additional DD5.1 data (AC3, typ. 448 or 640 kbps).....and CD Players would NOT decode it since a mixed data format would violate the Red Book Standard....
The 'data' is not 44.1kHz Stereo PCM, the 'data' is actually a 44.1kHz multi-channel AC3 or DTS bit-stream which is encapsulated within a PCM audio track. Which after being extracted from a disc is commonly muxed within an WAV container.

With regard to DTS... Placing a multi-channel 44.1kHz DTS audio stream within a PCM audio track has been defined as an audio CD playback standard for many years. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.1_Music_Disc.

However, with regard to Dolby Digital... Placing a multi-channel 44.1kHz AC3 audio stream within a PCM audio track has not been defined for audio CD playback at all. And as far as I know only a few software players, such as 'VLC media player' can process such content.

If anyone is interested in the technicalities, the software required to achieve placing a multi-channel DTS or AC3 stream within a PCM audio track can be found here: http://www.ac3filter.net/wiki/AC3Filter_tools#spdifer.

Edit: Sample files 7-zip contained (Hosted by WeTransfer): https://we.tl/t-Gog1OLBImt
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post #68 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 03:38 PM
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OK...what you are describing is what is commonly known as BITSTREAM format....the alternative to PCM Stereo Optical OUT.
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post #69 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 04:17 PM
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I have a “Hollywood Marches” from RCA Victor that is encode in Dolby Surround. I’m going to pop it in my PS3 and run it through the DSP modes.





Edit: I found this is available on Apple Music. I haven’t found any of those on the linked list.


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post #70 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
So a DTS-CD won't play in a regular CD player?
Yeah it does as long as it has a digital output, and the player set to output through that method while attempting playback. My Pioneer Elite player was made in 1994 and plays all my DTS music discs that "pretending" to be a CD. [Naturally it is decoded downstream by my pre/pro.]
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post #71 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 05:14 PM
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I found Victory at Sea on Apple Music. RCA Victor recordings look like they are available. The others listed are European releases and probably no available.

Edit: Dave Brubeck Quartet “So What’s New” is on Apple Music, no Dolby Surround label.


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post #72 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
DVD's containing DTS audio will carry a standard DVD logo, whereas CD's containing DTS audio will more often than not carry a 'DTS Entertainment' logo. Much like this one: -




Cheers
Many of their DVDs' carried that logo too on the front/back, and also on the case spine.

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post #73 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 05:21 PM
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BTW if one was attending any HT or audio show during the late 90's you were exposed to the most famous of DTS CD's ever. The Eagles's Hell Freezes Over. It was everywhere!
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post #74 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 05:51 PM
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I’m finding a few more on Apple Music. Galway at the Movies (RCA Victor). Telarc releases look available as well (jazz).

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post #75 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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The question is, do the tracks on Apple Music retain their Dolby Surround, or has it been remastered away like the Tomita?
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post #76 of 103 Old 03-26-2019, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I just ordered a batch of the Charles Gerhardt classic film scores at Amazon. The shipping is more than the CDs. It appears that they have all been recently remastered and re-released without the Dolby Surround logo. I'm wary of those. I only ordered the old ones.
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post #77 of 103 Old 03-27-2019, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I just ordered a batch of the Charles Gerhardt classic film scores at Amazon. The shipping is more than the CDs. It appears that they have all been recently remastered and re-released without the Dolby Surround logo. I'm wary of those. I only ordered the old ones.
I would think that most new releases that are intended to be multichannel would opt for a different format. Most people have various discrete multichannel options, such as Dolby Digital and dts (not to mention newer formats on BD, or the less common SACD and DVD-Audio). The need for matrixing channels into other channels is a thing of the past. Still, I would imagine that some might release something to be decoded with Dolby Pro Logic in order to be both inexpensive and compatible with most systems. Of course, one should look for it on the label, as otherwise, it most likely is not so encoded.

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post #78 of 103 Old 03-27-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I would think that most new releases that are intended to be multichannel would opt for a different format.
You're certainly right, but when the Gerhardt soundtracks were licensed out to smaller labels like Varese Sarabande, I doubt that they had any interest at all in limiting an already limited audience by putting it into a specialty multichannel format. I think they took the old two channel Dolby matrixed masters and remastered them for plain vanilla CD, not caring if the surround was obliterated in the process. It's fine with me... I would rather pay $3 a disc for a used copy of the matrixed version anyway. I'm getting very weary of spending $30 to $50 for multichannel music, especially of 70s rock albums I don't care that much about anyway. At least these soundtrack discs are really great music (Waxman, Tiompkin, Steiner, etc)

I think most labels consider music on discs to be pretty much dead, and multichannel music to be even deader. I am fine with being a grave robber and investigating old releases.

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The question is, do the tracks on Apple Music retain their Dolby Surround, or has it been remastered away like the Tomita?

I was thinking the same thing. I have the Hollywood Marches CD and it's available on Apple Music. It sounds the same when I have DPL II activated. (non music mode) Is DPL II what should be used, or should I try some of the others that are available. DTS NEO6 is an option on my Yamaha RX-V373

These are on Apple Music.

* Ray Brown Trio – Some Of My Best Friends Are...Singers. Telarc CD-83441

- Ray Brown Trio - Summertime. Telarc CD-83430

- Dave Brubeck - So What’s New? Telarc CD-83434

The Brubeck cover sleeve says it's a 20bit disc. When I play regular 2 channel stuff, I can hear that the rear speakers are on, but very little music is heard. When I played the Brubeck recordings, the piano was playing in the surround speakers. I added the Brubeck CD to my library. I will give it a good listen when I get home from from work.

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post #80 of 103 Old 03-27-2019, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sworth View Post
You're certainly right, but when the Gerhardt soundtracks were licensed out to smaller labels like Varese Sarabande, I doubt that they had any interest at all in limiting an already limited audience by putting it into a specialty multichannel format. I think they took the old two channel Dolby matrixed masters and remastered them for plain vanilla CD, not caring if the surround was obliterated in the process. It's fine with me... I would rather pay $3 a disc for a used copy of the matrixed version anyway. I'm getting very weary of spending $30 to $50 for multichannel music, especially of 70s rock albums I don't care that much about anyway. At least these soundtrack discs are really great music (Waxman, Tiompkin, Steiner, etc)

If I were rereleasing such a CD, I would probably not bother remastering it and leave the surround intact. That would be less expensive than remastering it. But, I am not in charge of such things.


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I think most labels consider music on discs to be pretty much dead, and multichannel music to be even deader. I am fine with being a grave robber and investigating old releases.
Perhaps they think of music on discs as dead. The new way isn't buying music at all, but involves renting it (i.e., streaming it). According to the articles I have read online, physical media sales are presently higher than purchased digital downloads; streaming is the current most popular way to get music:

Streaming music is taking over the recording industry, and there’s no clearer sign of it than this: digital download sales have fallen so much in the past few years that they’re now smaller than sales of CDs, vinyl, and other physical media, which hasn’t been the case since 2011.

The stats, which come from the RIAA’s newly released 2017 year end report, show that digital downloads fell to $1.3 billion last year, whereas physical media, while also falling, only declined to $1.5 billion.

Of course, both pale in comparison to revenue brought in from streaming, which has taken over the music industry in recent years. In 2016, the music industry made more than half of its revenue from streaming for the first time, and that growth continued into 2017. Last year, nearly two-thirds of all revenue — over $5.7 billion — came from streaming, an increase of 43 percent.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/22/1...aa-2017-report

That is, MP3 (and other such) downloads are diminishing, while streaming services are growing. The first graph here shows this, too:



https://www.visualcapitalist.com/music-industry-sales/

I personally like the idea of owning the music so that I do not have to continue to pay for it, but obviously I am increasingly in the minority, as far as income for the recording industry is concerned. But it makes sense that the recording industry would like people using such services, so that they get a constant income rather than only making money when people decide to buy new music.

Here is another interesting article on this subject:

First off, artists in the most popular genre in the U.S., R&B/hip-hop, apparently no longer care about CDs and thus no longer care about brick-and-mortar merchants. At least 25 R&B/hip-hop albums that debuted in the top 10 of the Billboard 200 this year didn’t have a physical CD released in stores on debut week. That includes six No. 1 albums: Eminem’s Kamikaze, Cardi B’s Invasion of Privacy, Kanye West’s Ye, Migos’ Culture II, Travis Scott's Astroworld and The Weeknd’s My Dear Melancholy. Even worse, from indie store’s point of view, at least half of those 25 hit albums still have no CDs months after being released.
https://www.billboard.com/articles/b...vinyl-analysis

CD sales were dropping already before such recent developments, but not releasing popular music on CDs at all is pushing sales down further than they would otherwise be. Fortunately for me, I have no interest in the music that isn't being released on CD (it is only certain types, not all). If everyone stops making physical discs, I will just buy used ones.

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post #81 of 103 Old 03-27-2019, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking the same thing. I have the Hollywood Marches CD and it's available on Apple Music. It sounds the same when I have DPL II activated. (non music mode) Is DPL II what should be used, or should I try some of the others that are available. DTS NEO6 is an option on my Yamaha RX-V373
Thanks for checking! That's useful.

In the albums Ive found where the remastering has affected the Dolby Surround, it's mainly a problem with the rear speakers being at a very low level.

Generally, I find that DPLII Music gives me the best presentation, but if you like a more separate center channel, you can use Movie. The DTS decoders do different thing, but I haven't been able to figure out what yet. I suspect that DTS adds a bit of a phase difference between the fronts and backs to create a feeling of depth, but I'm not sure. The best thing to do is try them all and see what you like. It may vary from album to album.
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I was thinking the same thing. I have the Hollywood Marches CD and it's available on Apple Music. It sounds the same when I have DPL II activated. (non music mode) Is DPL II what should be used, or should I try some of the others that are available. DTS NEO6 is an option on my Yamaha RX-V373
...
There are basically two approaches to this. One is to listen to whatever you like best. For that, you will have to try your various options and decide for yourself. Most people seem to prefer doing things that way. The other approach is to try to decode what is encoded on the disc. For that, for most [if not all] Dolby Surround encoded CDs, you would want to use DPL (DPL I, which is just called "DPL"). DPL II came out in 2000, so anything mastered before then was obviously not originally intended to be used with it. And by then, discrete formats were common in home systems (e.g., Dolby Digital, dts), so almost nothing is made for DPL II. DPL II is basically a DSP processing mode that is made to alter the sound in a pleasing way, like other DSP modes, rather than being a decoder. Dolby will tell you to go ahead and use DPL II to "decode" the old Dolby Surround encoded music, but that is a misuse of the word "decode." DPL II is commonly used to derive 5 channels from any 2 channel source (whether it was ever intended to be more than 2 channels or not). And DPL II was designed to be used that way. Such use is not decoding, as one can only decode what has been encoded.

More detail on that subject is in post 20 of this thread.

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post #83 of 103 Old 03-27-2019, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure that DPL II doesn't apply to earlier albums too. I have Tomita in Surround, which I believe was released in 1991. It appears to have different left and right rear information in Dolby Pro Logic II, and it has a mono rear channel in regular Dolby Pro Logic. My copy has the silver triangle on the cover. Was that released after 2000?

Also, Tomita's Bermuda Triangle was advertised as having "pyramid sound", which meant it had a single overhead channel in addition to the four quad channels. Perhaps there was an experimental version of advanced Pro Logic that RCA had access to, but it morphed into being DPLII by the time it was released. Bermuda Triangle was mixed in five channel and old press releases say that RCA Japan worked out some sort of workaround to release it in quad. But since quad was on its deathbed at that time, they never said how to decode it!

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post #84 of 103 Old 03-27-2019, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Tonight I listened to the Japanese ultimate edition of Tomita's Bermuda Triangle. It's a recent CD remastering, but it is in Dolby Surround still. I had this album on a pink vinyl audiophile version and it was always impressive sounding, but this Japanese version sounds incredible. Massive dynamic range. When the flying saucer lands and takes off the whole room shakes!

I took the opportunity to compare Dolby Pro Logic to Pro Logic II. I have some new theories about the differences. Regular Pro Logic subtracts true mono from the mains and channels it to center. The rears are a summed mono channel with everything that is 90 degrees out of phase. So it's essentially 4.0. Pro Logic II is a little different. It does everything that Pro Logic does, so it is entirely backwards compatible to regular Pro Logic, but it adds another trick... When something is 100% on the left or right main, it pushes it to the rear slightly and adds a phase shift to add depth. It's gradated, so when something pans left or right, it slowly pushes backwards along the side wall.

Since Tomita is entirely synthetic music, there's no reverb or ambience to mess with the phase and there are lots of examples of things potting to extreme left or right. It makes it easier to hear what the decoder is doing. The music was mixed for regular Pro Logic, so it has a clear center channel and separate rear mono ambience. But Pro Logic II allows the music to wrap around the listener, extending the panning left and right along the side walls to about halfway into the room. When you turn your head, you can tell that the bulk of the sound is up front, but the phase shift tricks your ears into hearing it in the middle of the side wall... as long as you don't turn your head and locate the source of the sound with the differences between your two ears.

It's quite effective and I can totally see how music might be mixed for regular 2 channel distribution and still work with Pro Logic II. All you would need is vocals in mono smack dab in the middle, out of phase content (common in progressive rock to give depth), and material hard panned left or right (again common in progressive rock). Some of the songs are on the 4.0 SACD Space Fantasy, but they are mixed quite differently. The surround material is basically the same, but the discrete format allows them to fly the sound around to the four corners of the room. Pro Logic II just lets them wrap the sound around the side walls. I don't think it can pan between the two rears without moving forward in between.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this clearly. It's hard sometimes to describe sound in words. The one big takeaway is that for a mix originally done for regular Pro Logic, Pro Logic II is totally compatible. It replicates the total Pro Logic experience and just adds a little more frosting to the cake.

I also listened to a couple of albums recorded for Meridian's Ambisonics. That seems to be similar, but there are differences. And Yamaha's Stereo to 7.1 handles it differently than either. I'll save that for another post when I have more time.

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post #85 of 103 Old 03-28-2019, 08:55 AM
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I'm not sure that DPL II doesn't apply to earlier albums too. I have Tomita in Surround, which I believe was released in 1991. It appears to have different left and right rear information in Dolby Pro Logic II, and it has a mono rear channel in regular Dolby Pro Logic....
When something is recorded in Dolby Stereo Surround, it starts off as a 4 channel master that is mixed into 2 channels in a special way (so that it can be decoded) which I already explained:

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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post
Dolby Stereo Surround is what is decoded with a Dolby Pro Logic (DPL) decoder (not to be confused with DPL II or any later DSP options). In the encoding process, one starts with 4 channels: Right, Left, Center, and Surround. These are mixed together in a special way down to 2 channels (called "Lt" and "Rt" in the quote that follows):

The L and R inputs go straight to the Lt and Rt outputs without modification. The C input is divided equally to Lt and Rt with a 3 dB level reduction (to maintain constant acoustic power in the mix). The S input is also divided equally between Lt and Rt, but it first undergoes three additional processing steps:
• Frequency bandlimiting from 100 Hz to 7 kHz.
• Encoding with a modified form of Dolby B-type noise reduction.
• Plus and minus 90-degree phase shifts are applied to create a 180 degree phase
differential between the signal components feeding Lt and Rt.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120328...ic_Decoder.pdf

The DPL decoder reverses this process. That is, whatever is in phase in the right and left is sent to the center, and the surround is derived from taking whatever is out of phase, applying a delay, a filter for removing anything above 7kHz, and decoding the noise reduction (both surround speakers get the same signal; the original source was 4 channels). Everything else stays in the right or left channel. The decoding process isn't perfect, so one does not have the same channel separation one would have with discrete channels (not to mention the frequency response for the surround channel). But it is a very clever way of getting 4 channels when your playback device can only have 2 discrete channels, and it works reasonably well.
...
Now, you can generate extra channels that were not in the original, as people often do when taking an ordinary 2 channel recording and using some DSP mode (or even with a mono recording, as many surround processors have a "mono movie" mode to do this). Applying such processing is not decoding, as the original was not more channels than it was. It is altering the sound (hopefully, in a pleasant way). The same can be done with a Dolby Stereo Surround recording, where one adds channels beyond the original 4 channel master. That is not decoding, because more than 4 channels are not encoded in the recording that one is processing. Now, Dolby designed DPL II to alter a Dolby Stereo Surround recording in a generally pleasing way. And if you like it, go ahead and use it. But one is altering the original and not recreating the original master recording, which was only 4 channels. Just like, when one engages a "mono movie" mode for an old mono movie and derives multiple channels from it, one is not recreating the original recording (which is just mono); one is altering it. That may or may not be enjoyable (depending on many factors, such as the particular movie, exactly how the "mono movie" mode processes the sound, and, not least, personal preference). If one likes it, it is fine to use it.


As for "pyramid sound", I do not know what that is, as it is not a common thing at all. Here I found something brief on the matter:

Pyramid Sound

This album is different from my others in that the master was recorded onto five tracks. Ideally, it should be heard through five speakers, four in the conventional rectangle and the fifth suspended above the center - thus a sonic pyramid. Although it is impossible to encode this onto a phonograph record, as much as possible of the five-channel effect has been incorporated into standard discs through the help of the engineering staff of Japan Victor.

http://www.isaotomita.net/recordings/bermuda.html

That, though, does not really explain what it is or how one is to try to set it up. (Though it does state that it really cannot be decoded into 5 separate channels, which is a clue that it might just be something like Dolby Stereo Surround and maybe they want an extra center speaker above the normal one to give a sense of height to the sound, or maybe the center channel is supposed to be up high instead of the normal location, or...) Given that the album came out in 1978, there is a good chance that it was one of the various forms of Quadraphonic sound (Quad) that were done in that era, though it is a bit difficult to know which form it might have been if it is not stated on the disc or booklet. Are there any instructions in the booklet explaining what is supposed to be sent to that extra height speaker? Is it a copy of the center channel of a DPL system, or is it something else? Without knowing how it is encoded and what one is supposed to do to decode it, one is left without any way of knowing what to do with it to recreate the original effect.

But, if it also says "Dolby Stereo Surround" on it, then a DPL decoder would be the right one to use, perhaps with the center speaker located up high (if that quote above about the "pyramid surround" is correct). The "pyramid sound" might be a meaningless marketing phrase, as that is also a common sort of thing that one finds in various products for sale.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #86 of 103 Old 03-28-2019, 09:14 AM
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As for "pyramid sound", I do not know what that is, as it is not a common thing at all. Here I found something brief on the matter:
Pyramid Sound
This album is different from my others in that the master was recorded onto five tracks. Ideally, it should be heard through five speakers, four in the conventional rectangle and the fifth suspended above the center - thus a sonic pyramid. Although it is impossible to encode this onto a phonograph record, as much as possible of the five-channel effect has been incorporated into standard discs through the help of the engineering staff of Japan Victor.
http://www.isaotomita.net/recordings/bermuda.html

That, though, does not really explain what it is or how one is to try to set it up. (Though it does state that it really cannot be decoded into 5 separate channels, which is a clue that it might just be something like Dolby Stereo Surround and maybe they want an extra center speaker above the normal one to give a sense of height to the sound, or maybe the center channel is supposed to be up high instead of the normal location, or...) Given that the album came out in 1978, there is a good chance that it was one of the various forms of Quadraphonic sound (Quad) that were done in that era, though it is a bit difficult to know which form it might have been if it is not stated on the disc or booklet. Are there any instructions in the booklet explaining what is supposed to be sent to that extra height speaker? Is it a copy of the center channel of a DPL system, or is it something else? Without knowing how it is encoded and what one is supposed to do to decode it, one is left without any way of knowing what to do with it to recreate the original effect.
I forget which quadraphonic album of his it was but it included quite a bit of information regarding the (several items of) equipment you needed to obtain the top pyramid speaker.

Needless to say, it was hugely expensive

EDIT: For anyone interested. Here's a link about his Dolby Surround [1991] CD album releases: http://www.isaotomita.net/dolby.html


Cheers
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And now I really wish I had kept my old 1990's Dolby Surround hardware decoder unit which I used with my laser disc player...
Ahaaaa....

I've managed to find out that the device I bought was the UK version of a Radio Shack Model# 15-1964 Pro Logic Decoder Amplifier. Awesome

Link: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_li...mplifier.shtml

And somebody got a real bargain here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/132981901697


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I forget which quadraphonic album of his it was but it included quite a bit of information regarding the (several items of) equipment you needed to obtain the top pyramid speaker.

Needless to say, it was hugely expensive

EDIT: For anyone interested. Here's a link about his Dolby Surround [1991] CD album releases: http://www.isaotomita.net/dolby.html


Cheers
That is exactly the sort of thing that would be needed if one is putting out a unique surround system: a detailed explanation of what one needs for it. Otherwise, no one is going to get to hear it properly.

I seem to recall hearing of some SACD releases of music with nonstandard placement of the speakers for the multichannel sound, which is obviously extremely inconvenient, as one would need to relocate and recalibrate one's system each time one switched between a standard and nonstandard recording. I don't recall what it was supposed to be, nor have I investigated the matter further.

I just now did a quick search and:

Some record labels such as Telarc and Chesky have argued that LFE channels are not needed in a modern digital multichannel entertainment system.[citation needed] They argue that all available channels have a full-frequency range and, as such, there is no need for an LFE in surround music production, because all the frequencies are available in all the main channels. These labels sometimes use the LFE channel to carry a height channel, underlining its redundancy for its original purpose. The label BIS generally uses a 5.0 channel mix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrou..._(LFE)_channel

I do agree with them that a separate bass channel is not necessary these days since the full range channels are full range and one can, with practically every processor these days, send the deep bass to the subwoofer(s) instead of to the main speakers, regardless of which channel(s) it is in.

With the recordings with a height channel instead of a subwoofer channel, one would need to reroute the signal from the player to an amplifier for a height speaker instead of just sending it to the subwoofer. And recalibrate the system for that. And then, to play back discs with a subwoofer signal instead of a height channel, one would need to change it back again (also going back to the earlier calibration, or recalibrating again). Switching back and forth between those is extremely inconvenient, and, like most people, I don't want to do that when changing which music I am listening to.

Nonstandard formats tend to add expense and a great deal of inconvenience.


Edited to add:

Come to think of it, one would not have to switch back and forth. One could set it up for the height channel, and use bass management to send all of the deep bass to the subwoofer. However, some of the upper bass of the subwoofer channel might be going to the height channel, depending on the frequency selected for one's bass management and the frequencies that happen to be in the specific recording. Of course, setting this up still requires an extra amplifier and speaker, and since a normal processor is not set up to be able to be compatible with this, it would likely be a separate thing from other processing of other sources (which means it would be good to have a separate player for this purpose rather than a universal player for all). I doubt very many people ever play those recordings (mentioned in the quote above) properly.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.

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Bermuda Triangle was originally released as a quad LP and later as a Dolby Surround CD. The current Japanese Ultimate Edition doesn't carry any indication at all that it's in matrixed surround. No Dolby logo- it just says "remastered". In the past, I've found that "remastered without the Dolby logo" has meant that the center channel is intact, but the rears are missing. But with this Ultimate Edition, the Dolby Surround is completely intact- in fact, it's very sophisticated. Oddly enough, the Ultimate Edition does have the blurb in the liner notes about the album being recorded in "pyramid sound".

Several of the tracks on Bermuda Triangle are also on the Space Fantasy 4.0 SACD. Comparing the two reveals them to be two completely different mixes. The 4.0 includes sound elements that travel from speaker to speaker across the rear. The Dolby Surround version only travels from front to rear along the sides and right to left across the mains... less ping pong effects because it can't do a full circle. The Ultimate Edition was clearly mixed for Dolby Surround, and I suspect it may have even been mixed to be decoded in Pro Logic II, because some of the rear channel effects are quite specific. Perhaps Tomita was still mixing for Dolby Surround long after it was no longer a viable format. I think Tomita was dedicated to surround and since he was so closely involved with the mixing of his own albums, he went ahead and did things with surround that weren't at all practical or commercially viable.

When RCA went to re-release a back catalog Tomita album from an old master, they paved over the surround in remastering without even realizing it. That may be a big reason why at the end of his life, he was so focused on producing the Ultimate Editions of all of his music. The one album he never got a chance to do a discrete multichannel SACD of was ironically Bermuda Triangle. I bet if he had done that, he would have made the center channel the top of the pyramid and told you in the liner notes to hang your center speaker from the ceiling in the middle of the room! It's interesting to hear that Bermuda Triangle was never released as a Dolby Surround CD, because the Ultimate Edition CD is definitely Dolby Surround. That album seems to be the one he held back... perhaps because he was waiting for his pyramid sound to become practical.

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post #90 of 103 Old 03-28-2019, 11:15 AM
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I seem to recall hearing of some SACD releases of music with nonstandard placement of the speakers for the multichannel sound...
Happened with DVD-A as well. Scroll down to the part labeled Raising the Roof of Your Listening Room: https://hometheaterhifi.com/technica...t-6-dvd-audio/

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