Antimode 8033 - Page 21 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 22Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #601 of 657 Old 03-11-2016, 09:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
januza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 566
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 323 Post(s)
Liked: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
I got my 8033-Cinema set up tonight and I'm very impressed. The boom is gone and all that's left is smooth, powerful and flat bass from my PSA S3000i. As someone who used to set up and equalize theaters, I've been chasing this kind of bass for many years and I can't believe a $350 tool is all I really needed. I wish I had heard of it long ago.

Very good to hear. Did u end up increasing the volume on subs or just as is ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
januza is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #602 of 657 Old 03-12-2016, 05:29 AM
Senior Member
 
johnnygrandis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 369
Most will feel the need to boost the bass a little after getting the problems peek away in the room, still the bass should be more powerful and have a tactile better feel to it.

Works wonderful on my dual 3x12

januza and FriscoDTM like this.





GOOD TIMES:

Listening Preference
johnnygrandis is offline  
post #603 of 657 Old 03-12-2016, 05:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
januza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 566
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 323 Post(s)
Liked: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnygrandis View Post
Most will feel the need to boost the bass a little after getting the problems peek away a in the room, still the bass should be more powerful and have a tactile better feel to it.



Works wonderful on my dual 3x12




Wow!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
januza is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #604 of 657 Old 03-12-2016, 06:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
XBR11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,498
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 807 Post(s)
Liked: 451
Been interested in getting an Anti-Mode ever since I ordered a new subwoofer and my avr has no correction program. Can't find any inexpensive boxes for sale anywhere. I do have a SPL meter though. Been thinking about buying directly from VLSI. Cinema would be $307. Don't understand what the S-II would do for $81 more, and if I need that. On the VLSI store website, there is a place for a coupon code. Anyone know of a coupon code?
XBR11 is offline  
post #605 of 657 Old 03-12-2016, 10:23 PM
Senior Member
 
MackGuyver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 456
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by januza View Post
Very good to hear. Did u end up increasing the volume on subs or just as is ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I set the volume about halfway up on my sub and left it there for both the Antimode and preamp's equalization routine. It ended up at -1, and my SPL meter showed it right at 85 dBC, so I left it there.

Preamp/Amps: Anthem AVM60, Emotiva XPA-2, XPA-5, A-300
Speakers: (7.1.2): Klipsch Reference Premiere / Power Sound Audio S3000i sub
Video: LG OLED65B7A, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Premiere+, Nvidia Shield TV
Room: GIK Acoustics treatments
MackGuyver is offline  
post #606 of 657 Old 03-20-2016, 10:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cmdrdredd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 7,114
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4262 Post(s)
Liked: 4574
Quote:
Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
I set the volume about halfway up on my sub and left it there for both the Antimode and preamp's equalization routine. It ended up at -1, and my SPL meter showed it right at 85 dBC, so I left it there.
Just out of curiosity have you tested both the flat and the subsonic filter modes? According to the documentation the subsonic filter mode is the default after initial calibration, but I would assume flat is what most people use?

Been thinking of trying one of these but after reading the manuals and researching I'm a little unsure of why subsonic filter would be the default.

LG 65" B7A OLED, Samsung 55" JS9000, Sony 43" x800e, Denon AVR-X2200w 5.1.2, PS4 Pro, Nintendo Switch, Gaming PC(GTX 1080ti + 4.7Ghz 8700k), Sony UBP-x800, Philips BDP-7501, Oppo BDP-203, Nvidia Shield TV
2x Elac F5/Elac C5/2x AR PS2052/2x Pioneer SP-T22A-LR/Power Sound Audio 15v w/ Anti-Mode 8033S-II
cmdrdredd is offline  
post #607 of 657 Old 03-21-2016, 01:03 PM
Senior Member
 
MackGuyver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 456
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 265 Post(s)
Liked: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Just out of curiosity have you tested both the flat and the subsonic filter modes? According to the documentation the subsonic filter mode is the default after initial calibration, but I would assume flat is what most people use?

Been thinking of trying one of these but after reading the manuals and researching I'm a little unsure of why subsonic filter would be the default.
From what I read in the manual, the subsonic filter is on by default to protect ported subs. If you don't have a ported sub, or have a beast of a ported sub, I'd go with the Flat mode, which is what I ended up setting mine to after the calibration.

I use the Dolby Atmos Amaze Trailer as my benchmark. The bass is insanely deep and powerful when the lightning strikes and thunder cracks about a minute into the trailer. Going from subsonic to flat was the difference between Wow! and Holy ______! With most material, I haven't noticed much difference, though.

Preamp/Amps: Anthem AVM60, Emotiva XPA-2, XPA-5, A-300
Speakers: (7.1.2): Klipsch Reference Premiere / Power Sound Audio S3000i sub
Video: LG OLED65B7A, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Premiere+, Nvidia Shield TV
Room: GIK Acoustics treatments
MackGuyver is offline  
post #608 of 657 Old 03-21-2016, 02:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cmdrdredd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 7,114
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4262 Post(s)
Liked: 4574
Quote:
Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
From what I read in the manual, the subsonic filter is on by default to protect ported subs. If you don't have a ported sub, or have a beast of a ported sub, I'd go with the Flat mode, which is what I ended up setting mine to after the calibration.

I use the Dolby Atmos Amaze Trailer as my benchmark. The bass is insanely deep and powerful when the lightning strikes and thunder cracks about a minute into the trailer. Going from subsonic to flat was the difference between Wow! and Holy ______! With most material, I haven't noticed much difference, though.
I see, so what is considered a "beast" of a ported sub? I have a PSA 15v for example. Should I be concerned with any potential damage from running a flat calibration?

LG 65" B7A OLED, Samsung 55" JS9000, Sony 43" x800e, Denon AVR-X2200w 5.1.2, PS4 Pro, Nintendo Switch, Gaming PC(GTX 1080ti + 4.7Ghz 8700k), Sony UBP-x800, Philips BDP-7501, Oppo BDP-203, Nvidia Shield TV
2x Elac F5/Elac C5/2x AR PS2052/2x Pioneer SP-T22A-LR/Power Sound Audio 15v w/ Anti-Mode 8033S-II
cmdrdredd is offline  
post #609 of 657 Old 03-21-2016, 02:56 PM
Senior Member
 
powerdubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 328
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 241 Post(s)
Liked: 206
On the antimode 8033s-II, after cal the subsonic is auto engaged. You can disable it, IF you leave the cal as is.

If you want to engage the low freq LIFT function (think house curve) then the subsonic turns back on and there is no way to disable it. Part of the reason I bought a 8033, but then also bought a Dual Core. Well, that... and dual subs, PEQ function, etc..
powerdubs is offline  
post #610 of 657 Old 03-21-2016, 02:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cmdrdredd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FL
Posts: 7,114
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4262 Post(s)
Liked: 4574
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerdubs View Post
On the antimode 8033s-II, after cal the subsonic is auto engaged. You can disable it, IF you leave the cal as is.

If you want to engage the low freq LIFT function (think house curve) then the subsonic turns back on and there is no way to disable it. Part of the reason I bought a 8033, but then also bought a Dual Core. Well, that... and dual subs, PEQ function, etc..
Not interested in lift modes. Just wondering if there is any risk to calibrating and then running flat as it seems that the levels are much higher on the low end of the frequency range that way. I guess I thought there might be some risk when I read through the manual and saw something about protecting a ported sub and that the subsonic mode is default.

LG 65" B7A OLED, Samsung 55" JS9000, Sony 43" x800e, Denon AVR-X2200w 5.1.2, PS4 Pro, Nintendo Switch, Gaming PC(GTX 1080ti + 4.7Ghz 8700k), Sony UBP-x800, Philips BDP-7501, Oppo BDP-203, Nvidia Shield TV
2x Elac F5/Elac C5/2x AR PS2052/2x Pioneer SP-T22A-LR/Power Sound Audio 15v w/ Anti-Mode 8033S-II

Last edited by cmdrdredd; 03-21-2016 at 03:02 PM.
cmdrdredd is offline  
post #611 of 657 Old 03-21-2016, 03:16 PM
Senior Member
 
powerdubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 328
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 241 Post(s)
Liked: 206
No risk whatsoever flat.

If you had some cheap POS sub, and cranked the low end via lift, AND put on a worn out badly recorded record (yes turntable) that put out distorted low end...well, then THAT is what the subsonic filter is for.
cmdrdredd and MackGuyver like this.
powerdubs is offline  
post #612 of 657 Old 03-21-2016, 06:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
januza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 566
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 323 Post(s)
Liked: 229
Antimode 8033

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerdubs View Post
On the antimode 8033s-II, after cal the subsonic is auto engaged. You can disable it, IF you leave the cal as is.

If you want to engage the low freq LIFT function (think house curve) then the subsonic turns back on and there is no way to disable it. Part of the reason I bought a 8033, but then also bought a Dual Core. Well, that... and dual subs, PEQ function, etc..

Is the dual core worth the extra investment when I have the anti mode already ? I'm running 2 SVS PB13 Ultras in a medium sized room not really built for home theater use.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
januza is offline  
post #613 of 657 Old 03-25-2016, 06:53 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Monterey Bay Area, California
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 99
This question was first generated in a thread I posted in "Help with EQ-ing my Sub". I just realized there was an Antimode thread, so here I am.

OK. Here I go again. Just when I thought I was making a move for a new avr (Denon x2200W), I started rethinking the Antimode option. Mainly because I figure I'm keeping the NAD regardless and it would be nice to pair it with a DSP of some kind. I've looked at the DSPeaker website and read the manual, but I'm confused with the 2.1 hookup diagram. My NAD C370 has pre-outs. But if I use the pre-out to connect to the Antimode, then connect the Antimode to my sub through the line out, doesn't that leave my mains nowehere? Don't I have to return the signal to my NAD through the pre-ins? This question reveals my inexperience with these matters, I know. But I could use a hand figuring this out in my head before I decide to go this route. A simple line diagram would be helpful with your explanation; I gotta "see" stuff to get it.

For more background to my questions, you can take a look at my original, short thread. Thanks ahead of time.
DyedBlue is offline  
post #614 of 657 Old 01-08-2017, 11:20 AM
Member
 
TaranScorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 11
How do you use Anti mode with Yamaha YPAO plus four subs? I have two subs in front of room and two MBM,s in back of room. YPAO only has one distance measurement. When running all four subs YPAO gives a 4' measurement, when running only front subs it gives a 10' measurement. Should I run YPAO with the subs off and just use what antmode stores for measurements?
TaranScorp is offline  
post #615 of 657 Old 01-08-2017, 02:15 PM
Senior Member
 
johnnygrandis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 223 Post(s)
Liked: 369
Deleted... > when i saw there was 4 subs involved....





GOOD TIMES:

Listening Preference
johnnygrandis is offline  
post #616 of 657 Old 01-09-2017, 08:40 AM
Member
 
TaranScorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Sheeeesh, almost a reply
TaranScorp is offline  
post #617 of 657 Old 01-11-2017, 01:25 PM
Senior Member
 
simple man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Thinking about getting an antimode. I've got a pioneer receiver with only one subwoofer out and I'm splitting the signal to my two subs. Would it be beneficial for me to get the s-ii or should I just stick with the cinema?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Colton
 
My Home Theater
simple man is offline  
post #618 of 657 Old 01-11-2017, 01:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
muad'dib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,376
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 421 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaranScorp View Post
Sheeeesh, almost a reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by simple man View Post
Thinking about getting an antimode. I've got a pioneer receiver with only one subwoofer out and I'm splitting the signal to my two subs. Would it be beneficial for me to get the s-ii or should I just stick with the cinema?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have same setup, 2 subs...

I got the sii because it has more filters to eq with and eqs higher..
simple man likes this.
muad'dib is offline  
post #619 of 657 Old 01-12-2017, 08:15 AM
Senior Member
 
Jim Pearce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Grimsby, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Bob at Creative Sound Solutions is winding down...

I bought an 8033s-ii from a Quebec manufacturer named Solen, I'll let you know how they - and Canada Post - performed tomorrow.


As for the 8033-ii I'm sure it will work brilliantly with my Oppo bdp-95's bass management for all PCM sources on the 7.1 analog outs. My large room - 30' x 16.5' x 9.5' with my quasi-ITU setup done width-wise with all speakers roughly 12' from the listening position - is rather undemanding: with the Anthem AVM 20 I pull down the axial mode at 34 Hz by 4 dB and with a 40 Hz crossover with my Paradigm Studio 100 v3s to the Servo-15 sub that works out rather well for DVD and Fibe TV.


I'm sure the 8033 will only do better and give me more uniform results with my three BM schemes:
1. 5.1 out with the Oppo (all PCM sources except DVD and TV)
2. The Anthem AVM 20 (TV and DVD)
3. Analog BM on the 7.1 outs through an Outlaw Audio ICBM-1 (SACD). Really implemented as 2.1 or 5.1 "super sub" below 40 Hz using the unused "low quality" front L,R outputs from the Oppo.


SACD could remain a sore point if I can detect a signal delay, although I do have one option for moving the Servo-15 closer. Of course there's always the possibility that I could convince myself that conversion to PCM is acceptable (with room correction). So far my ears tell me otherwise, and it isn't even close.
Jim Pearce is offline  
post #620 of 657 Old 01-12-2017, 08:42 AM
Senior Member
 
simple man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Antimode 8033

Pulled the trigger on the 8033s-ii last night. I'll post my thoughts when it comes in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Colton
 
My Home Theater

Last edited by simple man; 01-12-2017 at 07:59 PM.
simple man is offline  
post #621 of 657 Old 01-12-2017, 08:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,238
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked: 144
How much can I sell an original Anti mode 8033?

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
bori is offline  
post #622 of 657 Old 01-13-2017, 03:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Jim Pearce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Grimsby, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 180
the damnedest thing...

I got out my Radio Shack SPL meter and found out that the Oppo bdp-95 runs the .1 analog channel 6 dB higher than the Anthem AVM 20 does. I think prior to calibration I was splitting the difference, the Anthem was probably -3 dB and the Oppo was running right where I like it for moderate listening levels, about 3 dB hot. I had noticed that the bass tracks on Dolby 5.1 movies were a little weak for my taste, but put in down to Bell. After calibration the difference stuck out like a sore thumb: I had moved the AVM 20 up to +3 so the Oppo was +9. The launch in Ender's Game had the whole room shaking at a moderate listening level.

Last edited by Jim Pearce; 01-13-2017 at 05:08 PM.
Jim Pearce is offline  
post #623 of 657 Old 01-14-2017, 10:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Jim Pearce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Grimsby, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 180
this is disappointing...

While I gained something from the exercise - hadn't done any measuring in my system in a long time - the anti-mode 8033s-ii is back in the box ready to go back unless DSPeaker's tech people can help me out. During calibration it turned up the gain on my Paradigm Servo-15 sub well beyond the ability of my Anthem AVM 20 to correct it - well over 10dB, in fact more than 15dB. I tried re-calibrating, but to no avail. I already turned the sub down to 20/100, and turning it down even further after calibration seems to do nothing.


Much of the boom I was concerned with was because the .1 channel on my Oppo bdp-95 runs close to 10 dB hot. I never had this issue with the Esoteric DV-50 and just didn't think to test it. My large (16.5' x 30' x 9.5') and soft (much upholstery, carpet, drapes, wood floor, 1840's construction) is fairly benign (with a 40 Hz crossover) apart from a narrow 4 dB bump around the first axial mode at 34 Hz.


Anyway, I'll be sad to send this thing back without a thorough trial, but I can't think what to do differently.


Oops! I wasn't using BM with the Esoteric, because it only did BM for DVDs, and my Anthem AVM 20 does that. I was applying the LFE calibration to the 7.1 outputs of the Oppo through my ICBM-1 bass manager! Okay, but that still doesn't explain the bass gain in my Anthem.


Fixed. Stupid user error and now the anti-mode is working fine.
W8MM likes this.

Last edited by Jim Pearce; 01-18-2017 at 09:49 AM.
Jim Pearce is offline  
post #624 of 657 Old 01-14-2017, 10:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,238
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post
How much can I sell an original Anti mode 8033?

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
Anyone?

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
bori is offline  
post #625 of 657 Old 05-07-2018, 12:58 AM
Member
 
moleman74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 3
I can see this thread is old but maybe someone is still watching so here we go

will anti mode do a better job than my Yamaha RX-A3050 sub EQ?
moleman74 is offline  
post #626 of 657 Old 05-07-2018, 04:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Fackamato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Renton, WA
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 156 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by moleman74 View Post
I can see this thread is old but maybe someone is still watching so here we go

will anti mode do a better job than my Yamaha RX-A3050 sub EQ?
Yes
Fackamato is offline  
post #627 of 657 Old 05-07-2018, 08:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ovation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. Hubert, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked: 173
Run the Antimode first. YPAO will have far less work to on the sub afterwards.
Ovation is offline  
post #628 of 657 Old 05-12-2018, 02:18 PM
Member
 
moleman74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 3
So i turn down volume on the sub to say 9 o clock run antimode. Then turn volume up again and run YPAO and let the receiver fine tune the volume?
moleman74 is offline  
post #629 of 657 Old 05-12-2018, 10:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ovation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St. Hubert, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,631
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 192 Post(s)
Liked: 173
I last ran it four years ago (it’s set and forget) so I can’t swear to it, but that seems like what I remember doing.
Ovation is offline  
post #630 of 657 Old 05-14-2018, 02:45 AM
Member
 
moleman74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Denmark
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 3
my RX-A3050 has build in subwoofer eq so I am worried that when running YPAO afterward it will mess up the antimode settings with its own eq
moleman74 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off