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post #1 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys

I purchased a PB12-NSD a couple months back and just got my home theatre room set up and running over the last few days. Tonight is the first time I really hammered on the NSD, and I have to say I am slightly disappointed. I placed the sub near a corner in the back left of the room, firing down the wall. I did the "sub crawl" and this seemed to be a good area for it, I am getting 10 db more here than other areas of the room.

The sub sounds great, and has some serious power, but I am just not getting that punch in my chest I figured I would get. The house is shaking like mad but it's just not hitting me.

Is this possibly just simply a case of not being used to a good subwoofer that produces clean bass? I am out of ideas otherwise.
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post #2 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 03:53 AM
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Describe your room?

Your room characteristics would contribute a lot to the sound of the subwoofer. Do you have acoustic treatments?

My eD A2-300 sounds incredible in one room and sounds insanely terrible on another.

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post #3 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 05:38 AM
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Get the sub out of the corner. Forget about placing it to get the maximum bass output. Place it to get the most balanced, natural sound.

Also, your room may have characteristics that cause room gain which disproportionately boost the deep bass at the expense of some of the mid bass. You may need EQ.

Good mid bass also relies on a good transition between the mains and the sub. Experiment with different crossover settings and check the phase.
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post #4 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 05:40 AM
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slider,

How did you go about calibrating your sub?
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post #5 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 07:17 AM
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You wouldn't happen to be in a basement theater with carpet over concrete would you?
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post #6 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 07:28 AM
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Get a bigger sub

Projector: Epson Home Cinema 2100; Receiver: Sony STR-DN1080; Speakers: Monitor Audio Controlled Performance Inwalls and Inceilings; Subwoofer(s): SVS PC-2000; Bluray Player: Sony BDP-S6500; Remote: Simple Controls; Cables: Monoprice
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post #7 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blued888 View Post

Describe your room?

Your room characteristics would contribute a lot to the sound of the subwoofer. Do you have acoustic treatments?

My eD A2-300 sounds incredible in one room and sounds insanely terrible on another.

No acoustic treatments other than carpeting. It's not very echoey in there so I figured I wouldn't need much, but who knows now. The room is a rectangle, 12' x 19', with a large bulkhead on one side. I'll post some pics below to help visualize. I did have the sub along the side wall (to the left of the loveseat) but I didn't feel it was rocking there so I moved it into the back corner close to the A/V equipment. I am getting much more db in the corner and can run it at a lower gain, but the results in feel are about the same.




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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Get the sub out of the corner. Forget about placing it to get the maximum bass output. Place it to get the most balanced, natural sound.

Also, your room may have characteristics that cause room gain which disproportionately boost the deep bass at the expense of some of the mid bass. You may need EQ.

Good mid bass also relies on a good transition between the mains and the sub. Experiment with different crossover settings and check the phase.

I don't care where the sub goes, I just want it to sound good. I feel it blends well with the fronts and sounds fine, I'm just not getting the couch-shaking bass out of it.


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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

slider,

How did you go about calibrating your sub?

Did the sub crawl, placed sub where it is now. Ran Audyssey. Then I held my SPL meter in my seating position towards the ceiling, adjusted the LFE channel level in the receiver so it reads about 3 db higher than the other channels. If I hold the meter and walk in the room, the SPL meter falls off the earth. There is just no impact in the middle of the room at all.


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You wouldn't happen to be in a basement theater with carpet over concrete would you?

Basement yes, carpet yes, but I do have a proper Dricore subfloor in this room.

As for a bigger sub, this thing should easily fill 1800 cubic feet... No?
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post #8 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 11:26 AM
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In 1800 cu.ft. the 12NSD should be able to do a good job, but because the room is closed and not so big, the room gain may be augmenting the deepest bass too much and meanwhile, you may be getting some sort of cancellation in the "punch" range that you find lacking. Make the effort to take some good measurements of the bass frequency response if you really want to figure out what's going on. Download REW from the Home Theater Shack forum to take the measurements. You might need to move the sub, move the seating, change the crossover, or use EQ to help solve your problem.
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post #9 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 11:36 AM
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I have a very similar setup in size and location (basement, ~1700cuft, carpet on concrete), and my guess is that you are still losing most of that "visceral" shaking sensation to the foundation of the house.

I went from an Onkyo HTiB sub to a Cadence CSX-15 (granted it's not a PB12-NSD) but I expected much more of a visceral sensation. What I got was much more refined bass, and increased output without distortion or muddiness, but not that "chest punch" or vibration.

What I recently did to get the tactile "feeling" was to add a Clark Synthesis Transducer TST209 to my loveseat and got all of that low frequency visceral effect that I had been wanting. I'd recommend one to anybody.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=house

Take a look at that thread. He has the same sub and a similar sized room, but moved from a second floor theater to a basement one. Eerily similar results to what you are experiencing.

Great looking room by the way.
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post #10 of 39 Old 11-17-2009, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Chemist View Post

I have a very similar setup in size and location (basement, ~1700cuft, carpet on concrete), and my guess is that you are still losing most of that "visceral" shaking sensation to the foundation of the house.

I went from an Onkyo HTiB sub to a Cadence CSX-15 (granted it's not a PB12-NSD) but I expected much more of a visceral sensation. What I got was much more refined bass, and increased output without distortion or muddiness, but not that "chest punch" or vibration.

What I recently did to get the tactile "feeling" was to add a Clark Synthesis Transducer TST209 to my loveseat and got all of that low frequency visceral effect that I had been wanting. I'd recommend one to anybody.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=house

Take a look at that thread. He has the same sub and a similar sized room, but moved from a second floor theater to a basement one. Eerily similar results to what you are experiencing.

Great looking room by the way.

This is certainly possible. The back wall with the door I built, but the side walls are just framed/insulated over the foundation. The screen is on a false wall I built about 12" in front of another concrete wall of the foundation(framed/insualted and drywalled as well).

I know the sub is putting out bass, and serious amounts of it. I can go upstairs and it sounds like the world is ending. I just don't FEEL it. I think we're onto something in that some frequencies are cancelling out, but I do think some of it has to do with it just being a better sub and creating cleaner bass than what I am used to.

I guess all I can really do is experiment tonight and report back then.

Thanks for the kind words as well
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post #11 of 39 Old 11-18-2009, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I spent about another hour messing around last night. Moved the sub around, changed the direction it faced, tried switching the phase, and honestly not much has changed. I did the sub crawl again and I definately have it in the right position. Where I am seated I guess the bass is acceptable as I sit close to a side wall, but in other areas in the room, there is nothing. If I move into the center of the room I might as well not even have a sub. The sub is pressurizing the room, I can feel the pressure in my ears like being 10 feet under water, but I just can't feel anything in terms of impact. Very, very frustrating after spending so long on this room and everything else turned out great. Unfortunately because the room was delayed a few weeks I am also outside the SVS return window, so I can't even really try anything else, but as I said before I know the sub is working, I just don't know if a different one would mesh better with my room. I can get the sub to do what I want, but I had to crank the gain and it was probably set 15 db too high.

Is there any chance some acoustical panels on the walls would possibly help? I am told however that under 100 hz they will be almost useless. The wall you cannot really see in the pictures to the right side of the room (facing the screen) is just a 19' x 8' bare wall, as I haven't done any decorating yet.

If there is anyone in the Vancouver area knowledgable in this area that would like to earn a case of beer let me know. Maybe there is something I am overlooking.
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post #12 of 39 Old 11-18-2009, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

Did the sub crawl, placed sub where it is now. Ran Audyssey. Then I held my SPL meter in my seating position towards the ceiling, adjusted the LFE channel level in the receiver so it reads about 3 db higher than the other channels. If I hold the meter and walk in the room, the SPL meter falls off the earth. There is just no impact in the middle of the room at all.

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I know the sub is putting out bass, and serious amounts of it. I can go upstairs and it sounds like the world is ending. I just don't FEEL it. I think we're onto something in that some frequencies are cancelling out, but I do think some of it has to do with it just being a better sub and creating cleaner bass than what I am used to.

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Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

Well, I spent about another hour messing around last night. Moved the sub around, changed the direction it faced, tried switching the phase, and honestly not much has changed. I did the sub crawl again and I definately have it in the right position. Where I am seated I guess the bass is acceptable as I sit close to a side wall, but in other areas in the room, there is nothing. If I move into the center of the room I might as well not even have a sub.

Well, I am surprised that no one has mentioned it, but WELCOME TO THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF STANDING WAVES.

Do an Internet search on "standing waves", "room modes," and such and you will find all the info you need to understand.

In a nutshell, If you ran Audyssey correctly (following the set up guide that is linked in my signature), Audyssey has smoothed out the response inside an "acoustic bubble" defined by the measuring microphone positions. Outside of that bubble, all bets are off. As you walk through the room, you are walking through all the peaks and nulls that are caused by the affect of your room on the speaker's frequency response. The center of the room is the biggest null of all. You will hear little or no significnat bass at that point as you have already noted.

Your best bet is to do something to smooth out the overall response in the room using bass traps. Lot's of info here about that. Then rerun Audyssey properly. That should help a lot.

Just saw your response to my question on the Audyssey thread. Moving the subwoofer will NOT affect the -3 db points of the main speakers (or any speaker for that matter, except for the sub) as dewd has pointed out. Something else had to have been done differently between those two measurements.

Bill
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post #13 of 39 Old 11-18-2009, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Well, I am surprised that no one has mentioned it, but WELCOME TO THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF STANDING WAVES.

Do an Internet search on "standing waves", "room modes," and such and you will find all the info you need to understand.

In a nutshell, If you ran Audyssey correctly (following the set up guide that is linked in my signature), Audyssey has smoothed out the response inside an "acoustic bubble" defined by the measuring microphone positions. Outside of that bubble, all bets are off. As you walk through the room, you are walking through all the peaks and nulls that are caused by the affect of your room on the speaker's frequency response. The center of the room is the biggest null of all. You will hear little or no significnat bass at that point as you have already noted.

Your best bet is to do something to smooth out the overall response in the room using bass traps. Lot's of info here about that. Then rerun Audyssey properly. That should help a lot.

Just saw your response to my question on the Audyssey thread. Moving the subwoofer will NOT affect the -3 db points of the main speakers (or any speaker for that matter, except for the sub) as dewd has pointed out. Something else had to have been done differently between those two measurements.

I'm going to go home and redo the sub placement, although I've done the sub crawl three times now. I'll re-run Audyssey after that, and report back. The only thing that may have changed slightly is the microphone positions, by a few inches at each spot.

Edit: That cabinet in the back corner of the room has your guide printed out in it
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post #14 of 39 Old 11-18-2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

I'm going to go home and redo the sub placement, although I've done the sub crawl three times now. I'll re-run Audyssey after that, and report back. The only thing that may have changed slightly is the microphone positions, by a few inches at each spot.

Edit: That cabinet in the back corner of the room has your guide printed out in it

The sub crawl is probably not going to improve things without additional room treatment. Except for the two couches, there is nothing in the room (that I can see) that will help the acoustics. The apparently bare walls are probably contributing to all sorts of early reflections. What does the room sound like if you clap your hands (simple "slap echo" test)? If you hear a lot of echos, you have more problems than with just the bass.

Oh, its not "my" guide. I am not the author. It was compiled by giomania. I just happen to be a firm believer in the value of Audyssey.

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post #15 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I did the sub crawl again tonight, but determined it's definately best where it is. I also decided to check the basics and realized that my stupid self didn't reset the low pass filter in the receiver after running Audyssey the other day, so it was still at 250 hz . I set it back to 80 and it helped the front soundstage a lot. There is a little bit more impact but certainly not a massive gain. I ran Audyssey again afterwards, it kept the front crossover at 80 as well.

I am going to add acoustic treatments, probably a bit at a time. I did just get this theater going really about four or five days ago. I think I am probably going to have to buy another, smaller sub as well, something to cover the 50 - 80 range better than what I currently have.
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post #16 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 02:04 AM
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slider,

After rereading your last few post, I also think that you're seated in a null.

If you are up to it, you need to get one of the frequency analysis programs such as REW so that you can tell what's really going on. Or better yet, post over on home theater shack where you live and if someone would come by to check it for you.

My best guess without any testing is that the sub would do best along the side wall 1/3rd the room dept. Then rerun Audyssey with it in that position using multiple sweeps without moving the mic. Find your preferred spot and leave the mic there.

Another way to run the crawl test is to put the sub in your primary listening position and walk around the room till you find the spot that it sounds the best. This doesn't mean, the loudest but rather evenly distributed frequencies in the subwoofer range. Don't forget to turn audyssey off before you do this test. Then after you find the best spot for the sub, rerun Audyssey.

Also, if you're lacking the 50-80hz midrange, buying another sub to fill this area is likely to be a problem intergrating and then you're confined to very nearfield placement. Which then creates problems with timing. If its farfield placed, then the null would likely take over and kill those frequencies again. The Ultra when properly intergrates has good midbass. If you tend to sit nearer the sidewall, that's contributing to your problem. (I do the same) Sit more towards the lateral middle of the room and see if that helps.
Best of luck and let us know how it sounds.
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post #17 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

I did the sub crawl again tonight, but determined it's definately best where it is. I also decided to check the basics and realized that my stupid self didn't reset the low pass filter in the receiver after running Audyssey the other day, so it was still at 250 hz . I set it back to 80 and it helped the front soundstage a lot. There is a little bit more impact but certainly not a massive gain. I ran Audyssey again afterwards, it kept the front crossover at 80 as well.

I am going to add acoustic treatments, probably a bit at a time. I did just get this theater going really about four or five days ago. I think I am probably going to have to buy another, smaller sub as well, something to cover the 50 - 80 range better than what I currently have.

I agree with JimP that adding a second sub to try and fill the hole is a bad idea. Depending on which version of Audyssey you have, you could end up with LESS bass than you started with.

You need to do some research into the peaks/nulls of your room to locate the best seating and sub positions. Adding some room treatments and maybe a couple of bass traps will really help. Follow all this up by rerunning Audyssey.

Good luck. Your room LOOKS really nice. Now you just need to work on making it SOUND even better.

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post #18 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

slider,

After rereading your last few post, I also think that you're seated in a null.

If you are up to it, you need to get one of the frequency analysis programs such as REW so that you can tell what's really going on. Or better yet, post over on home theater shack where you live and if someone would come by to check it for you.

My best guess without any testing is that the sub would do best along the side wall 1/3rd the room dept. Then rerun Audyssey with it in that position using multiple sweeps without moving the mic. Find your preferred spot and leave the mic there.

Another way to run the crawl test is to put the sub in your primary listening position and walk around the room till you find the spot that it sounds the best. This doesn't mean, the loudest but rather evenly distributed frequencies in the subwoofer range. Don't forget to turn audyssey off before you do this test. Then after you find the best spot for the sub, rerun Audyssey.

Also, if you're lacking the 50-80hz midrange, buying another sub to fill this area is likely to be a problem intergrating and then you're confined to very nearfield placement. Which then creates problems with timing. If its farfield placed, then the null would likely take over and kill those frequencies again. The Ultra when properly intergrates has good midbass. If you tend to sit nearer the sidewall, that's contributing to your problem. (I do the same) Sit more towards the lateral middle of the room and see if that helps.
Best of luck and let us know how it sounds.

I did the sub crawl by placing the sub in my seat, I even put it on the couch. I usually sit in the right side of the couch, against the wall, near the QS8. It definately works best being in the back half of the room, right now it's about halfway between the A/V equipment, and the loveseat, against the wall, firing down the room towards the screen. I am totally open to changing my seating position if I have to. Perhaps I should try the placing the sub in a few different locations and walk around the room to see which place has the best overall bass content, rather than just the highest output. I thought that was pretty much what I had done but now I am second guessing.

I actually had the sub about 1/3 of the way up to begin with, to the left of the loveseat (you can see it in the first picture). I put it there for looks because honestly I figured this sub would be plenty and placement wouldn't be as important, which I am finding is truly not the case at all. It needs to be set about 10 db higher there to get the same output, which is fine, but that kind of goes against the whole sub crawl thing. Someone linked me to some files you can burn to a cd that will play every hz from 10 - 100 and then you can plot the levels to see the peaks and lows, I think I will do that tonight.

Trust me, I do not want to buy another sub if I don't have to. It just blows when you spend 300+ hours working, and a lot of money on something, and just this one area is disappointing, the rest I am thrilled with.

I think what I will do is try running the CD and plotting the results. If there are significant dips where I sit, I'll try it again after doing a new sub crawl with a different seating location.
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post #19 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

I did the sub crawl again tonight, but determined it's definately best where it is. I also decided to check the basics and realized that my stupid self didn't reset the low pass filter in the receiver after running Audyssey the other day, so it was still at 250 hz . I set it back to 80 and it helped the front soundstage a lot. There is a little bit more impact but certainly not a massive gain. I ran Audyssey again afterwards, it kept the front crossover at 80 as well.

I am going to add acoustic treatments, probably a bit at a time. I did just get this theater going really about four or five days ago. I think I am probably going to have to buy another, smaller sub as well, something to cover the 50 - 80 range better than what I currently have.

Not to go against what the other members are saying, but I had a similar issue in my room and to make a long story short the only thing that would bring up my null (after trying bass traps, dif positions for the sub which worked, but presented other issues, etc...)at the LP was another sub in the rear of the room. After getting everything in phase and so on, it worked and sounds fantastic. One thing to take into account though is I dont use Audyssey. YMMV
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post #20 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I just spoke with SVS and they suggested another sub as well. It just seems so insanely overkill for an 1800 cubic foot room, but I guess it's not all about output.

I should have bought two PB10-NSD's instead, perhaps. I don't mind giving up a touch of low end to gain that mid range back.
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post #21 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

I just spoke with SVS and they suggested another sub as well. It just seems so insanely overkill for an 1800 cubic foot room, but I guess it's not all about output.

I should have bought two PB10-NSD's instead, perhaps. I don't mind giving up a touch of low end to gain that mid range back.

If you do get a second (identical sub), I suggest you come back to the Audyssey thread as there are some tricks/quirks to dealing with two subs that may not be in the Guide.

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post #22 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I just re-read the suggestion to run Audyssey with the mic only in one or two locations.

Can this be done? I thought there had to be some seperation of each phase. This sounds easy enough to give it a whirl, anyway.
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post #23 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
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I just re-read the suggestion to run Audyssey with the mic only in one or two locations.

Can this be done? I thought there had to be some seperation of each phase. This sounds easy enough to give it a whirl, anyway.

Where did you read that and who suggested it? You either misread something or what you read was wrong.

The Guide says to run the first position to establish the proper subwoofer trim settings THEN rerun ALL mic positions.

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post #24 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Where did you read that and who suggested it? You either misread something or what you read was wrong.

The Guide says to run the first position to establish the proper subwoofer trim settings THEN rerun ALL mic positions.

It was posted in this thread, a few posts above.

I know what the guide says, but I only have two seats really. So far I have been going in a circle around the seating area.
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post #25 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

I just spoke with SVS and they suggested another sub as well. It just seems so insanely overkill for an 1800 cubic foot room, but I guess it's not all about output.

I should have bought two PB10-NSD's instead, perhaps. I don't mind giving up a touch of low end to gain that mid range back.

Dual subs is never "overkill". If you calibrate for the combined output of both subs, you don't get *any* more output. What you get is flatter frequency response across more seats, less distortion and more headroom. All good things... and no "overkill".

Personally, I think you have two issues: 1. nulls in the "impact" area and; 2. a lack of tactile feedback through your concrete floor.

A second sub can help in the "impact" area, and I would encourage you to explore that concept. I suggest you stick to a second of the *same* sub. It's a lot easier to integrate 2 identical subs than it is to integrate 2 dissimilar subs. The other thing that can help is bass traps. Absorp the reflections that cause the cancellations and you reduce the nulls. Once you've optimized the response with these changes, the last resort is EQ.

A tactile transducer can help in the tactile response area. I use a Crowson Tactile Transducer under my seating and I get a very similar tactile experience as the second floor, suspended HT's of several of my friends.
http://www.crowsontech.com/go/crowso...opDefault.aspx
I drive the transducer with a Buttkicker kilowatt amp:
http://www.thebuttkicker.com/home_th...bka1000-4a.htm
I cross it out at 40 Hz with the LPF on the Buttkicker amp.

Good luck.

Craig

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post #26 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slider33 View Post

It was posted in this thread, a few posts above.

I know what the guide says, but I only have two seats really. So far I have been going in a circle around the seating area.

I don't see it, but in any case it is wrong.

Please clarify what you mean by "going in a circle around the seating area." If you are including the sofa/chair on the side wall, that is a BIG mistake. It is outside of the angle covered by the front speakers and any measurements taken there will throw off Audyssey. You should only be taking measurements around the sofa that is facing the screen/front speakers and the first mic position should be at the primary listening spot. Measurements should be taken in two foot increments around the first postion up to the maximum number of postions your system allows. You also should not be taking any measurements up against a wall. This is all clearly explained in the Guide, but if if there is something you don't understand, please post your question on the Audyssey thread and someone will help you out.

Bill
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post #27 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 06:55 PM
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I would also echo what Craig and a few others here have said about tactile transducers........one of the absolute best additions I have made to my HT (which is also carpet over concrete). I built a mini riser for my couch to sit on which is easy to do and mounted a couple Buttkickers to it and it is so seamless with the subs and adds a dimension that the subs cant quite do. My subs dig pretty low (triple PB13's in 15hz mode and a 12/2 ultra), but there is occassionaly info in movies that my subs dont even pick up (it seems) that my BKs do......a great example of this is Star Trek the other night. There were a few moments in that film when the subs seemed to be doing nothing but my couch was doing this pulsating type motion......very cool The BKs are rated down to 5hz though which is lower than my subs so that makes sense I suppose considering ST has bass info all the way down to 3hz in places (according to the other thread). Well worth looking into.
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post #28 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Chemist View Post

You wouldn't happen to be in a basement theater with carpet over concrete would you?


How would one improve on this if they are in this situation?

I for one have a cement basement floor with simple foam underlayment and then carpet on top.

Should I have something ELSE under my PB-13 to improve sound/feel other than the carpet and 1/4inch foam?

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post #29 of 39 Old 11-19-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgillyjcu View Post

How would one improve on this if they are in this situation?

Please see posts #25 and #27 in this thread.

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post #30 of 39 Old 11-20-2009, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Personally, I think you have two issues:

1. nulls in the "impact" area

I noticed that you said the "last resort is EQ", but I wanted to kindly ask if the nulls have the potential to be corrected by an EQ to the point where most of the "impact area" can be re-gained.

I am not 100% sure, but isn't it said that a lot of room nulls can be corrected by sub palcement? I know the OP has tried every placement option in his room, but I was just curious?

Quote:


The other thing that can help is bass traps. Absorp the reflections that cause the cancellations and you reduce the nulls. Once you've optimized the response with these changes, the last resort is EQ.

I have seen the GIK site and was wondering if it is worth the investment to "half-ass" the bass traps option. Because of WAF (and expense), I know there are a lot of limitations with putting up bass traps in all the proper areas. Those lower corner bass traps seem like a feasable option, but would it make enough of a difference without having the rest of the package?

I am sure there are tons of threads on this, but how does one determine where the bass traps are needed?
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