Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1048 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31411 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBucketOfTruth View Post
So you can't have your cake and eat it too? Is it an issue of subwoofer tuning or does a bit of extra distortion equal more tactile response? I'm very curious as since I only have one setup doing dual duty of film and music. Can you like clean bass and the chest thump at the same time? Is the way around getting both just having tons of power/lots of subs?
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I think it has something to do with second and third order harmonics and speaker distortion versus what our ears pick up, but there is also a major chance that I am not correct. I would also like to hear exclamation from the professionals on this one.

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I do not have an answer but the solution to this is to have clean deep articulate sub(s) with minimal distortion like Rythmik for music and then add a Behringer 1200D or PA sub(s) for that chess thumping TR from movie. Run them all together for movie, turn the PA sub(s) off for music. With that being said, I even like music at concert level with my FV15’s and 1200Ds playing together. It gives me that concert hitting me in the chess thump sound, so I always have all 4 subs on at all time.
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post #31412 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 04:58 PM
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2nd harmonic distortion adds fullness to the perceived sound quality. 3rd harmonic distortion isn't as desirable from what I've read.
You got that right. 3rd order harmonic distortion bites. Hard. Are you old enough to remember "transistor sound" as compared to tubes? That was mostly 3rd order harmonics. It sounds hard and crunchy; brittle. Not pleasant. Another source is clipping a transistor amplifier circuit. That sharp edge in the wave form where clipping occurs (tubes will "shoulder" or "round" those edges) generates 3rd order harmonics like they are free. Makes me clinch my teeth just thinking about it.
Can a sub make these sounds with 3rd order harmonics or is that more likely with the speakers?

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post #31413 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 06:49 PM
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Can a sub make these sounds with 3rd order harmonics or is that more likely with the speakers?
The third harmonic of 16 Hz (32' pipe, the lowest "normal" tone from a pipe organ) is 64 Hz. The third harmonic of a 20 Hz tone is 80 Hz. So yes, a sub can reproduce a limited number of third harmonics and make a distortion you can hear.

Interestingly, the lowest note on a normal piano is 27.5 Hz (that's A0, key 1 on a normal 88 key keyboard), whose third harmonic is 110 Hz, which is beyond the subwoofer's reach if your xover is 80 Hz. So for the vast majority of music, the sub isn't giving you any third harmonics.
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post #31414 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 06:55 PM
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if I have my crossover at 80hz and all speakers small...why might I be hitting a dropoff at 60hz?
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post #31415 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 07:02 PM
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if I have my crossover at 80hz and all speakers small...why might I be hitting a dropoff at 60hz?
What I see is that you are running the subwoofers about +8dB hot. Bring the subwoofers level down to what Audyssey set them initially then run REW again.
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post #31416 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 07:06 PM
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What I see is that you are running the subwoofers about +8dB hot. Bring the subwoofers level down to what Audyssey set them initially then run REW again.
if my memory is correct its all flat when I did that gonna be re running rew alot when I decide to hook up minidsp

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post #31417 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 07:06 PM
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Can a sub make these sounds with 3rd order harmonics or is that more likely with the speakers?
The third harmonic of 16 Hz (32' pipe, the lowest "normal" tone from a pipe organ) is 64 Hz. The third harmonic of a 20 Hz tone is 80 Hz. So yes, a sub can reproduce a limited number of third harmonics and make a distortion you can hear.

Interestingly, the lowest note on a normal piano is 27.5 Hz (that's A0, key 1 on a normal 88 key keyboard), whose third harmonic is 110 Hz, which is beyond the subwoofer's reach if your xover is 80 Hz. So for the vast majority of music, the sub isn't giving you any third harmonics.
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post #31418 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 07:12 PM
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if my memory is correct its all flat when I did that gonna be re running rew alot when I decide to hook up minidsp
Yes, that sounds correct. When you boost the subwoofer level by +8dB, you are not only boosting, you are also exciting the room in a way that is creating room modes that are causing that null on the 60Hz region.
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post #31419 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 07:13 PM
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what I am starting to think is that since my front speakers can only do about 105db, something in audyssey changes stuff when I try to get subs to play louder while still keeping main speakers at 105db or lower...dont know if true...but that would suck for bassheads with main speakers that could only play less than 100db or so...maybe this weekend i break out the rew...

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post #31420 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 07:21 PM
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Check also the combined impulse response which usually change when you make changes in the target curve or when you boost the subwoofers too much.
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post #31421 of 40592 Old 11-14-2017, 10:20 PM
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Could just be a room mode around 60 Hz that's introducing a null right before the crossover point.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #31422 of 40592 Old 11-15-2017, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
My room dimesions are similar, 13⅓'x24½'x8½. I have had great results with Audyssey and subs along the sidewalls like you have. In your situation I don't believe you need a MiniDSP.

Get a Y-splitter and connect both F15HPs to one sub output and the F15 to the other. I recommend placing the F15 directly behind the MLP, as close as possible. Then run Audyssey according to Laulau's guide.

I also recommend experimenting with placement by moving the sidewall subs between the corner and ½ wall length until you find the best placement. You can also face them along the wall (parallel) or facing each other (perpendicular). Have a UMIK and REW comes in handy for finding the best placement. Room EQ Wizard's Room Simulator is also helpful and doesn't require a mic.
Thanks For the suggestion. One small concern is that because of the room constraints, the two flanking subs on the side walls cannot be equip distant from the front wall. The left sub is about 18 inches towards the listener. Can I still use a y splitter at the receiver end and connect these two subs to the same subwoofer output? I plan to connect them one at a time and make sure they each are playing at -75db before starting the audessey calibration.
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post #31423 of 40592 Old 11-15-2017, 08:10 AM
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Thanks For the suggestion. One small concern is that because of the room constraints, the two flanking subs on the side walls cannot be equip distant from the front wall. The left sub is about 18 inches towards the listener. Can I still use a y splitter at the receiver end and connect these two subs to the same subwoofer output? I plan to connect them one at a time and make sure they each are playing at -75db before starting the audessey calibration.
Yes but you'll have to use the phase control on the sub(s) to get them in phase before running room correction. Many posts in this and other threads on how to do that by ear (not recommended by me), using an SPL meter (somewhat better but LF response is limited, still better than by ear), or REW or other analysis program.

The easiest reasonable approach I suggest for a novice is to use an SPL meter and play a test tone (not too loud and only briefly before letting everything cool down) at the crossover frequency. Put the SPL meter at ear height at the main listening position (tripod is best), set the phase knob of the sub closest to the listening position to 0, play the tone, and adjust the phase of the other to maximize the volume. If that does not work then try setting the other sub's phase knob to zero and tweaking the closer sub (ignoring why that might happen...) When you have found the phase adjustment that yields maximum volume then run room correction.

That approach costs <$50 for a cheap SPL meter (make sure it include C weighting) and boom tripod to hold it. REW is free but has a learning curve and you need to spend $75~$100+ for a mic. Or you can buy $3k in SW, a $2k+ preamp, and a $1k measurement mic like I have and get essentially the same results as REW and a $100 CSL mic. For this application you do not need expensive...

HTH - Don
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post #31424 of 40592 Old 11-15-2017, 08:43 AM
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That approach costs <$50 for a cheap SPL meter (make sure it include C weighting) and boom tripod to hold it. REW is free but has a learning curve and you need to spend $75~$100+ for a mic. Or you can buy $3k in SW, a $2k+ preamp, and a $1k measurement mic like I have and get essentially the same results as REW and a $100 CSL mic. For this application you do not need expensive...

HTH - Don

I already have the umik-1. I had the one from minidsp which I never used. sold it to someone here and got myself one from CSL which is sitting in the basement for over an year. But what I lack is the BALLS to get started down the rabbit hole......:-)
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post #31425 of 40592 Old 11-15-2017, 11:27 AM
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Unfortunately with rythmik you'll have to use LINE IN instead of LFE to use phase control. I recommend keep PEQ switched off, use mid damping 20hz rumble off if you plan to use audyssey/room correction and make sure the crossover is set to AVR and max.

It's super easy to do with REW since it has a built in spl meter that will work with the built in mic on your computer(uncalibrated) or if you have the UMIK-1, just plug and point it towards the ceiling at the main listening position. Once you plug it into your computer, REW will detect it automatically, select the 90 degree narrow band calibration file if you have one from CSL. Click the SPL meter icon for SPL, Press Z if you have a calibration file C if you dont, press S for slow, HP for high pass, press the red icon to record level from the mic, then play the test tone from your receiver/processor with the subs speaker level at 0 and adjust the gain on the actually sub each one at a time by powering each sub on/off manually if necessary to attain 75db from each one, then and adjust the phase on one of them with both subs powered on slowly until you get the highest spl, should be around 80-81 with both ouputting. if you have an HDMI output on your computer you can cable you can use that as an input with the built in signal generator(for test tones instead of your processor - results would be the same), select pink noise and sub cal, LFE would be the ouput channel. Same process for windows/mac. I think REW is very user friendly. That will give you a good baseline to start audyssey. If you have the HDMI output, you can then do measurement sweeps to compare different sub settings, positions, before/after etc..

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post #31426 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 12:08 AM
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Our focus is more on the audiophile and music reproduction where detailed, low distortion and deep bass are the goals. Unfortunately, it's proven that you can not have both without compromising one of the two. In order to get clean, accurate and detailed bass you have to get rid of a good amount of tactile response. I think our balance of TR and accuracy/detail is very good but for some our subwoofers lack on the TR department and that's OK with us. Clean and detailed bass is not cheap or easy to get, TR can be bought at a very cheap price (Behringer B1200 for $299)
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So you can't have your cake and eat it too? Is it an issue of subwoofer tuning or does a bit of extra distortion equal more tactile response? I'm very curious as since I only have one setup doing dual duty of film and music. Can you like clean bass and the chest thump at the same time? Is the way around getting both just having tons of power/lots of subs?
You CAN have your cake and eat it too. The amount of TR desired will be a personal preference. There are many factors such as room size, sub-floor, ported vs sealed, nearfield placement, etc. Also, what you like for movies may be more than is appropriate for music.

I will say many don't know what clean, accurate, detailed bass really sounds like. I didn't until I expanded my listening experiences. The PMC Advanced Transmission Line subs/systems have the most accurate & tactile bass I've ever heard (price tag to match).

Honestly, I don't think standard measurements like decay can accurately predict TR one sub vs another.

To directly answer your last question, I do know that Mark Seaton does take into account TR without sacraficing clean bass when tuning his custom installs [which generally involves multiples of sealed subs].
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post #31427 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 08:08 AM
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I posted earlier, but just want some additional information. I currently have a BIC PL-200 sub and it makes low noises, better that HTIB, but nothing spectacular either. I have an LVX12 being delivered today, so I'm curious what I should expect going from an okay at best $300 PL-200 to an LVX12. I'm slowly stepping up my audio game, and this is the only nice sub I've had or will have heard. Thanks in advance!
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post #31428 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 09:39 AM
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I upgraded to an LVX12 last year. I remember when first hooking it up I thought it was pretty subtle. It didn't hit very hard. However, after a couple days of break in that changed. I think the biggest difference you'll get is in the definition and detail of the bass. You might even think the LVX12 puts out less bass than your old sub, but what you're really hearing is lack of distortion and clean, articulate bass. I guess I'm saying don't be surprised to be initially underwhelmed, but that will change. Once I got my sub dialed in and started listening more I couldn't believe how much more detailed the sound was. I also noticed a big increase in the imaging and soundstage. I didn't expect this to improve from a sub, but it makes sense when you think about how an inferior sub is smearing the image with undefined bass sounds. Once you remove those you get more contrast in the sound between silence and bass, with no overhang or ringing. I can honestly say that changing to this sub was the top 1 or 2 upgrades I've made in my room.

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post #31429 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 12:01 PM
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I upgraded to an LVX12 last year. I remember when first hooking it up I thought it was pretty subtle. It didn't hit very hard. However, after a couple days of break in that changed. I think the biggest difference you'll get is in the definition and detail of the bass. You might even think the LVX12 puts out less bass than your old sub, but what you're really hearing is lack of distortion and clean, articulate bass. I guess I'm saying don't be surprised to be initially underwhelmed, but that will change. Once I got my sub dialed in and started listening more I couldn't believe how much more detailed the sound was. I also noticed a big increase in the imaging and soundstage. I didn't expect this to improve from a sub, but it makes sense when you think about how an inferior sub is smearing the image with undefined bass sounds. Once you remove those you get more contrast in the sound between silence and bass, with no overhang or ringing. I can honestly say that changing to this sub was the top 1 or 2 upgrades I've made in my room.
Thanks for the info abd1. I'm glad that you said all of that. I went home at lunch to take it inside so I set it up and ran Audyssey. Set fronts to small and crossover at 80Hz. It is hard to explain the sound. It didn't seems like very much output compared to the BIC, although, I could tell it went much lower. There was no "boominess" anymore. I'll let it ride for a couple of days and see if it opens up any.
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post #31430 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 12:18 PM
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Thanks for the info abd1. I'm glad that you said all of that. I went home at lunch to take it inside so I set it up and ran Audyssey. Set fronts to small and crossover at 80Hz. It is hard to explain the sound. It didn't seems like very much output compared to the BIC, although, I could tell it went much lower. There was no "boominess" anymore. I'll let it ride for a couple of days and see if it opens up any.
It will take you several days to get used to a "zero boominess" kind of sound. Also, feel free to increase the level for the subwoofer post Audyssey by up to +6dB on the receiver subwoofer level. For most of us, Audyssey and in my case Dirac, are very conservative in terms of subwoofer level post calibration.
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Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #31431 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
It will take you several days to get used to a "zero boominess" kind of sound. Also, feel free to increase the level for the subwoofer post Audyssey by up to +6dB on the receiver subwoofer level. For most of us, Audyssey and in my case Dirac, are very conservative in terms of subwoofer level post calibration.
Good to know, thanks! I was really amazed at how the low end seemed to disappear. Not necessarily because a lack of low end, just because it was so seamless with the rest of the audio.
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post #31432 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
Thanks for the info abd1. I'm glad that you said all of that. I went home at lunch to take it inside so I set it up and ran Audyssey. Set fronts to small and crossover at 80Hz. It is hard to explain the sound. It didn't seems like very much output compared to the BIC, although, I could tell it went much lower. There was no "boominess" anymore. I'll let it ride for a couple of days and see if it opens up any.
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It will take you several days to get used to a "zero boominess" kind of sound. Also, feel free to increase the level for the subwoofer post Audyssey by up to +6dB on the receiver subwoofer level. For most of us, Audyssey and in my case Dirac, are very conservative in terms of subwoofer level post calibration.
Totally agree. Was just home at lunch and I watched the first 3 minutes of Kong: Skull Island and the "pod emerges" scene from War of the Worlds (about 22 minutes in). Reminded me how much my LVX12 rocks! Especially in the "pod emerges" scene when the pod emits the laser beams the sound is so tactile and exact. That's a great scene to check out.
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post #31433 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 02:27 PM
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@mthomas47 has posted some great information in the past about our perception of bass frequencies in relation to others as well as overall volume. I like listening to home theater bass close to reference levels while keeping my overall volume ~10dB below reference.

Mike, do you have that post archived?

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post #31434 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 02:39 PM
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@enricoclaudio do you use a custom target curve (Dirac) for your system? I'm liking the JBL Synthesis curve myself. Do you utilize different settings for movies vs music? On both the sub and processor?

I'm going to activate the Dirac trial on my PC soon (hopefully).
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post #31435 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@enricoclaudio do you use a custom target curve (Dirac) for your system? I'm liking the JBL Synthesis curve myself. Do you utilize different settings for movies vs music? On both the sub and processor?

I'm going to activate the Dirac trial on my PC soon (hopefully).
I do use a custom target curve for Dirac in my XMC-1. The XMC-1 only store one Dirac Preset so for music I do use the Dirac target curve loaded into the XMC-1 and for movies and night watching I have an extra two subwoofer presets stored in my miniDSP 2x4 HD that I select at convenience with my Harmony Elite remote scenes or with the miniDSP IR remote. The miniDSP 2x4 HD can store up to 4 presets.

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #31436 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 03:21 PM
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Thanks for the info abd1. I'm glad that you said all of that. I went home at lunch to take it inside so I set it up and ran Audyssey. Set fronts to small and crossover at 80Hz. It is hard to explain the sound. It didn't seems like very much output compared to the BIC, although, I could tell it went much lower. There was no "boominess" anymore. I'll let it ride for a couple of days and see if it opens up any.
Good that it cured your boominess. Boominess is a bad thing IMHO. Live with the new sub for a week or two, trying the various tuning options. I personally found that one-port with the bass extension switch at low-ht setting works well for my room and my listening habits (80% HT, 20% music). That, and I run audyssey, then go back in and reset the xovers all back to 80 Hz, and increase the subwoofers (I've got a pair of LVX12s) 4 dB over what audyssey sets (aka 4 dB hot). The results for me are spectacular. Even my wife agrees.

After you get the LVX12 dialed in and get some experience with it, switch back to your old sub. You'll be scratching your head wondering how you lived with the thing as long as you did.
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post #31437 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@mthomas47 has posted some great information in the past about our perception of bass frequencies in relation to others as well as overall volume. I like listening to home theater bass close to reference levels while keeping my overall volume ~10dB below reference.

Mike, do you have that post archived?

Hi Marc,

Thank you very much for the compliment! I'm not sure if there is a particular post you have in mind, but I address the subject of bass perception, relative to other frequencies, and relative to Dolby and THX Reference, in the subwoofer guide linked below. I find our individual perceptions of bass very interesting.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31438 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
My living room is fairly small, I don't know the dimensions right off, but it is open to a long hallway and the kitchen/dining room area. The house is fairly open. We do tend to listen to music and movies pretty loud. We'll be listening while working around the house so we crank it up. I have a pretty hard limit at $600 so $700 would be out.
I purchased the L12 this Summer and had roughly the same shopping list and budget as you. The L12 was the best size (footprint and overall dimensions) of the available options and was most easily integrated into our smaller room size without risking wife rejection. I’d like to say I have no regrets - but if the LVX12 were on sale (and had been described as a little FV15HP), I’d have stretched the budget and increased my footprint. Our living room is 15x13 with 8’ ceilings; but is open on one end and flows into our kitchen / dining room, so you can double the effective volume/space the sound is if you wish to get technical.
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post #31439 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 05:20 PM
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The results for me are spectacular. Even my wife agrees.
My wife just shakes her head at my saying
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post #31440 of 40592 Old 11-16-2017, 05:56 PM
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Sounds right given how capable a pair of FV18s is. I do think it is much easier to get the room to shake, buzz, and rattle well before any of these Rythmik subs lose composure. Especially in very small rooms like mine. My LV12R makes no bad noises as currently setup, but if I was to crank the volume on certain scenes and content I could get things in the room to shake enough to be distracting.

How big is your room?




Sounds like it is setup for max extension and high SPL. Have you tried mid or high damping?

How do you like it compared to the sub it replaced?
Yes, I have tried mid and high. I like both low and mid. The rubble filter off, seems dig a little lower. I may go turn the rumble filter back off. I like the new one better. I still thinking of getting another one.
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