Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1049 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31441 of 40624 Old 11-16-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Also, feel free to increase the level for the subwoofer post Audyssey by up to +6dB on the receiver subwoofer level. For most of us, Audyssey and in my case Dirac, are very conservative in terms of subwoofer level post calibration.
Doesn't jive with my experience over 2 different Audyssey receivers and 3 different subs including the F12SE. Default calibration with DEQ on means I feel like I'm about to be launched out of my seat at otherwise mediocore volumes (-30 to -35dB). Oh, and my room is ~3500cu ft.
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post #31442 of 40624 Old 11-16-2017, 07:46 PM
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i think deq on is +10db boost

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #31443 of 40624 Old 11-16-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
It will take you several days to get used to a "zero boominess" kind of sound. Also, feel free to increase the level for the subwoofer post Audyssey by up to +6dB on the receiver subwoofer level. For most of us, Audyssey and in my case Dirac, are very conservative in terms of subwoofer level post calibration.
I've boosted the subwoofer level and while listening to music it just seems like the low end is nonexistent. I've started watching a movie now and it is a bit better, but I'm just surprised that the output is so low.
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post #31444 of 40624 Old 11-16-2017, 08:04 PM
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imo, most dont have gain high enuf...if you want boom, you can get it...shoot i have main speakers that top out around 105 and my subs can do do 120+ ...thats kinda loud

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #31445 of 40624 Old 11-16-2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I've boosted the subwoofer level and while listening to music it just seems like the low end is nonexistent. I've started watching a movie now and it is a bit better, but I'm just surprised that the output is so low.
What do you have it hooked up to? Like I said I was initially underwhelmed too, but it didn't take too long for me to be blown away. Not sure what kind of music you listen to or the rest of your setup, but for ****s and giggles try the track Bassgasm from Techmaster P.E.B. I think this music is more for car audio showdowns, but if you're not getting output from this track maybe something's wrong or hooked up wrong. My room with my LVX12 is right under the kitchen and when I played this song cranked up pots rattled off their shelf upstairs. Try it and see.

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post #31446 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I've boosted the subwoofer level and while listening to music it just seems like the low end is nonexistent. I've started watching a movie now and it is a bit better, but I'm just surprised that the output is so low.

try this:

artist - techmaster p.e.b
album - it came from outer bass ii
song(s) - invading bass, bass out

that should give your sub a workout.
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post #31447 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by davatar View Post
Doesn't jive with my experience over 2 different Audyssey receivers and 3 different subs including the F12SE. Default calibration with DEQ on means I feel like I'm about to be launched out of my seat at otherwise mediocore volumes (-30 to -35dB). Oh, and my room is ~3500cu ft.
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i think deq on is +10db boost
Hi Tori,

It's even worse than that, in this case. DEQ adds 2.2db of bass boost (to all channels, not just the subs) for every -5db below Reference (0.0 MV). So, at a master volume of -30, DEQ would add 13.2db, and at -35, DEQ would add 15.4db of bass boost to all of the channels. This goes back to the point that Marc was making a little earlier about trying to restore acoustic equilibrium at below Reference levels. 5.1 movies are mixed to have all frequencies in equilibrium at a specific playback level, which is 0.0 MV.

As we reduce the volume, however, our hearing falls off faster for the bass frequencies than it does for the frequencies in our strongest hearing range of about 400Hz to 4000Hz. And now we are no longer hearing the bass special effects that the film mixer incorporated into the soundtrack, in equilibrium with the other frequencies. DEQ attempts to restore that equilibrium at below Reference listening levels. There is a detailed explanation of what DEQ is doing, and why it is trying to do it, in the subwoofer guide linked in my signature.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31448 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 08:45 AM
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I know people show equal loudness contours to recommend features like dynamic EQ or YPAO volume and subwoofer and/or full range house curves as opposed to flat frequency response for speakers and subs, just with running subs hot.

But to me the former sounds like a gimmick and unbalanced. Everything flat with just subs hot sounds way more neutral/balanced, especially with music but even with HT. So, that always leaves me scratching my head wondering why loudness compensation doesn't sound right to me, even at my -40MV to -30MV listening levels, where it should be quite useful.

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Originally Posted by abd1 View Post
What do you have it hooked up to? Like I said I was initially underwhelmed too, but it didn't take too long for me to be blown away. Not sure what kind of music you listen to or the rest of your setup, but for ****s and giggles try the track Bassgasm from Techmaster P.E.B. I think this music is more for car audio showdowns, but if you're not getting output from this track maybe something's wrong or hooked up wrong. My room with my LVX12 is right under the kitchen and when I played this song cranked up pots rattled off their shelf upstairs. Try it and see.
I have the sub LFE hooked up to my Denon AVR sub out. I have the volume on the sub at about half way. I factory reset the AVR and turn Audyssey and EQ off and boosted the sub level to +6dB. When I watched a bit of a movie, it was pretty good, but nothing earth shattering. From what others have said, I had high expectations to really feel the low end, but in music it is barely audible. I can hear the low end from my front KEF Q150s better than the massive LVX12. Just seems odd to me.
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post #31450 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
try this:

artist - techmaster p.e.b
album - it came from outer bass ii
song(s) - invading bass, bass out

that should give your sub a workout.
I'll give this a try tonight. I played bass, I love you and it was barely audible.
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post #31451 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:13 AM
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L12 initial impressions

So the first L12 I received from Rythmik was defective, but they have great customer service, and I've had the replacement since Wednesday. I didn't really have a chance to put it through its paces until last night. Now that I have I figured I'd post some impressions here. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know, but maybe someone who is on the fence about this sub would find my comments useful.

I have done no calibration or dialing in. I just plopped it down in a convenient spot, set the gain knob to 50%, and switched my front speakers to "small" in the AVR. I plugged into the LFE input as recommended by others here. I will eventually run Audyssey, but it wasn't a good time for it last night (too much noise in the house), and I wanted to play with my new toy.

With the addition of this sub my 5.1 system is complete. The other speakers are KEF Q750 up front, Q100 in rear, Q200c in center.

I am impressed by the way this sub blends in, even with zero calibration. It doesn't blare or boom, it isn't heavy or bloated. It just adds low frequencies into the mix, and I would swear the bass was coming from the speakers and not the sub. I had to put my head next to the sub to make sure it was working.

Started with some music tests. First up was The Kraken off the Pirates 2 soundtrack. The difference on this track was subtle. It sounded and felt darker and more menacing, which is probably the composer's intent. And the bass drum "heartbeat" sounded articulate and sharp.

Next was Sia's "Cheap Thrills". This track is pretty much all bass, and it shines with the L12. Ironically, hearing this track's thrills was not really super cheap. Last thing I listened to was "Familiarity" by Punch Brothers. That track has a very deep bass line played, as far as I can tell, on an upright bass, and it was far more present then I'd heard it before.

But the real test is home theater, right? That's what everyone says you need a big beefy sub for. Even Rythmik doesn't think the L12 is best suited for home theater. On their product page they say it's suitable for "moderate home theater use." Well, I have a copy of The Force Awakens that would tell whether "moderate" was enough for me. I put it in, switched the sub to "Low HT" mode, and cranked the volume as loud as I would ever want a movie to be in my home.

The L12 didn't seem to break a sweat keeping up. Ships, blasters, and explosions were thunderous. Then Kylo Ren pulled out his light saber, and I had to pick my jaw up off the floor. My hat is off to the audio engineers who created that sound, because holy crap does it sound amazing. The L12 makes it sound as frightening as it was intended to be.

At one point I walked down the hall to use the restroom, and I received another surprise. I could still hear the subwoofer. When you're sitting surrounded by KEF loudspeakers doing their thing, the subwoofer blends into the rest of the sound and you don't notice that it's a separate thing. But with the higher frequencies attenuated by walls and distance, I could really hear what the sub was doing for the sound.

So, I guess "moderate" is all I need. The L12 is probably capable of more output than I even want. Based on one evening of use, I'm super happy with the cheapest Rythmik, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to others.
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post #31452 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have the sub LFE hooked up to my Denon AVR sub out. I have the volume on the sub at about half way. I factory reset the AVR and turn Audyssey and EQ off and boosted the sub level to +6dB. When I watched a bit of a movie, it was pretty good, but nothing earth shattering. From what others have said, I had high expectations to really feel the low end, but in music it is barely audible. I can hear the low end from my front KEF Q150s better than the massive LVX12. Just seems odd to me.
You've gotta run Audyssey or use an SPL meter to get your levels calibrated. And then boost the sub trim on the receiver some more if you like. With Audyssey off and trims reset on the receiver, your levels are not calibrated.

Edit: I missed in your earlier post that you had run Audyssey. My bad.

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Transducers: Revel Concerta2 F36 (3), M16 (4); Tannoy AMS 6DC (4); Rythmik F18 (2)
Front end: NAD T758 v3; Outlaw Model 7125
Sources: Panasonic UB820; Oppo BDP-103; Toshiba HD-A2
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post #31453 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by abd1 View Post
What do you have it hooked up to? Like I said I was initially underwhelmed too, but it didn't take too long for me to be blown away. Not sure what kind of music you listen to or the rest of your setup, but for ****s and giggles try the track Bassgasm from Techmaster P.E.B. I think this music is more for car audio showdowns, but if you're not getting output from this track maybe something's wrong or hooked up wrong. My room with my LVX12 is right under the kitchen and when I played this song cranked up pots rattled off their shelf upstairs. Try it and see.
I have the sub LFE hooked up to my Denon AVR sub out. I have the volume on the sub at about half way. I factory reset the AVR and turn Audyssey and EQ off and boosted the sub level to +6dB. When I watched a bit of a movie, it was pretty good, but nothing earth shattering. From what others have said, I had high expectations to really feel the low end, but in music it is barely audible. I can hear the low end from my front KEF Q150s better than the massive LVX12. Just seems odd to me.
Assuming you have placed the new sub exactly where the old one went, I would say that your experience is fairly common for someone unaccustomed to the very low distortion of the Rythmik subs.

Though I would confirm the following to make sure you are getting the most of the sub:

Make sure dynamic volume and dynamic EQ are off. Try both Audyssey on and off. Probably use whatever you did with old sub for consistency sake.

Before you ran, Audyssey did you make sure one port was plugged and bass extension switch was left in the 1P-HT position?

Also, leave sub power in the ON position before running Audyssey to make sure amp is already on when test tones start.

You can add more than 6dB to sw level after Audyssey. Just set sw gain so that Audyssey sets sw level around -10 or -11 and then add whatever you prefer without exceeding 0dB for the sw level. You don't want to enter the positive values, as clipping can result at high SPL.

Make sure all speakers are small with 80Hz crossover or higher if you prefer. Don't lower any crossover from where Audyssey sets them, but you can raise above 80Hz if desired. I use 90Hz or 100Hz for example.

Did you run all 8 positions in Audyssey?

Samsung 55" MU8000
Yamaha RX-A2070
KEF Q150 Bookshelf x 5
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post #31454 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have the sub LFE hooked up to my Denon AVR sub out. I have the volume on the sub at about half way. I factory reset the AVR and turn Audyssey and EQ off and boosted the sub level to +6dB. When I watched a bit of a movie, it was pretty good, but nothing earth shattering. From what others have said, I had high expectations to really feel the low end, but in music it is barely audible. I can hear the low end from my front KEF Q150s better than the massive LVX12. Just seems odd to me.
Mark,

Please check the Dialing in Rythmik Subwoofers Guide by @laulau . You have to properly run Audyssey to get good results. Also, if you factory reset the AVR after running Audyssey, then you lost Audyssey calibration results and you have to run it again.
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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #31455 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ballantyne View Post
So the first L12 I received from Rythmik was defective, but they have great customer service, and I've had the replacement since Wednesday. I didn't really have a chance to put it through its paces until last night. Now that I have I figured I'd post some impressions here. Not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know, but maybe someone who is on the fence about this sub would find my comments useful.

I have done no calibration or dialing in. I just plopped it down in a convenient spot, set the gain knob to 50%, and switched my front speakers to "small" in the AVR. I plugged into the LFE input as recommended by others here. I will eventually run Audyssey, but it wasn't a good time for it last night (too much noise in the house), and I wanted to play with my new toy. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com//forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

With the addition of this sub my 5.1 system is complete. The other speakers are KEF Q750 up front, Q100 in rear, Q200c in center.

I am impressed by the way this sub blends in, even with zero calibration. It doesn't blare or boom, it isn't heavy or bloated. It just adds low frequencies into the mix, and I would swear the bass was coming from the speakers and not the sub. I had to put my head next to the sub to make sure it was working.

Started with some music tests. First up was The Kraken off the Pirates 2 soundtrack. The difference on this track was subtle. It sounded and felt darker and more menacing, which is probably the composer's intent. And the bass drum "heartbeat" sounded articulate and sharp.

Next was Sia's "Cheap Thrills". This track is pretty much all bass, and it shines with the L12. Ironically, hearing this track's thrills was not really super cheap. Last thing I listened to was "Familiarity" by Punch Brothers. That track has a very deep bass line played, as far as I can tell, on an upright bass, and it was far more present then I'd heard it before.

But the real test is home theater, right? That's what everyone says you need a big beefy sub for. Even Rythmik doesn't think the L12 is best suited for home theater. On their product page they say it's suitable for "moderate home theater use." Well, I have a copy of The Force Awakens that would tell whether "moderate" was enough for me. I put it in, switched the sub to "Low HT" mode, and cranked the volume as loud as I would ever want a movie to be in my home.

The L12 didn't seem to break a sweat keeping up. Ships, blasters, and explosions were thunderous. Then Kylo Ren pulled out his light saber, and I had to pick my jaw up off the floor. My hat is off to the audio engineers who created that sound, because holy crap does it sound amazing. The L12 makes it sound as frightening as it was intended to be.

At one point I walked down the hall to use the restroom, and I received another surprise. I could still hear the subwoofer. When you're sitting surrounded by KEF loudspeakers doing their thing, the subwoofer blends into the rest of the sound and you don't notice that it's a separate thing. But with the higher frequencies attenuated by walls and distance, I could really hear what the sub was doing for the sound.

So, I guess "moderate" is all I need. The L12 is probably capable of more output than I even want. Based on one evening of use, I'm super happy with the cheapest Rythmik, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to others.
I think your comments show both how deep these subs play and also how precise and articulate the sound is.

How loud do you set the receiver volume to?

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post #31456 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Assuming you have placed the new sub exactly where the old one went, I would say that your experience is fairly common for someone unaccustomed to the very low distortion of the Rythmik subs.

Though I would confirm the following to make sure you are getting the most of the sub:

Make sure dynamic volume and dynamic EQ are off. Try both Audyssey on and off. Probably use whatever you did with old sub for consistency sake.

Before you ran, Audyssey did you make sure one port was plugged and bass extension switch was left in the 1P-HT position?

Also, leave sub power in the ON position before running Audyssey to make sure amp is already on when test tones start.

You can add more than 6dB to sw level after Audyssey. Just set sw gain so that Audyssey sets sw level around -10 or -11 and then add whatever you prefer without exceeding 0dB for the sw level. You don't want to enter the positive values, as clipping can result at high SPL.

Make sure all speakers are small with 80Hz crossover or higher if you prefer. Don't lower any crossover from where Audyssey sets them, but you can raise above 80Hz if desired. I use 90Hz or 100Hz for example.

Did you run all 8 positions in Audyssey?
I have tried running it with Audyssey, running all 8 positions, and setting crossover to 80Hz and speakers to small instead of large. I have also tried with Audyssey and EQ turned off completely. There wasn't much change either way. The sub is sitting in the same position as the previous one. The other was rear ported and this one is front ported. I've walked around the room and the only place where there is a good amount of low end is when I'm right next to the sub.


It just doesn't seem like it is clean low end... just seems like hardly any low end...



I'm not going to say that my wife and I are bassheads, but we like to feel it when we're listening to music. With this one we can't hardly even hear it, much less feel it. Kind of disappointed.
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post #31457 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:48 AM
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I think your comments show both how deep these subs play and also how precise and articulate the sound is.

How loud do you set the receiver volume to?
My receiver (Denon AVR-s930h) doesn't report volume relative to reference level, but uses some arbitrary scale that I suspect is % of maximum. I had it set to 65 last night.
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post #31458 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I know people show equal loudness contours to recommend features like dynamic EQ or YPAO volume and subwoofer and/or full range house curves as opposed to flat frequency response for speakers and subs, just with running subs hot.

But to me the former sounds like a gimmick and unbalanced. Everything flat with just subs hot sounds way more neutral/balanced, especially with music but even with HT. So, that always leaves me scratching my head wondering why loudness compensation doesn't sound right to me, even at my -40MV to -30MV listening levels, where it should be quite useful.
FWIW, I don't think that people show the Equal Loudness Curves just to justify or recommend something like DEQ. It's rather that DEQ was specifically designed based on the Equal Loudness Curves. And, it was designed even more specifically with 5.1 movies in mind, as they are the only listening medium where there is a known Reference volume. Whether it actually works exactly as intended, though, is another question.

I have no idea how well DEQ works compared to the Yamaha program you mentioned, but even with DEQ reviews are mixed. It is by far the most controversial software program in the Audyssey suite. Some people love it for everything, and some people don't use it for anything. That's a pretty classic YMMV situation if I have ever seen one.

Perhaps some of the difference in opinion regarding software which tries to compensate for different frequencies at different volumes (not really simple loudness compensation) depends on the room, and on the specific listening material. But, I believe even more depends on the perceptions and preferences of the individual user. Personally, I just try to explain DEQ if the subject comes up, but that doesn't represent an endorsement of it.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 11-17-2017 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Typo
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post #31459 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:05 PM
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My receiver (Denon AVR-s930h) doesn't report volume relative to reference level, but uses some arbitrary scale that I suspect is % of maximum. I had it set to 65 last night.
In your Audio menu, you should have a volume setting that allows you to use either the Absolute scale which sort of (but not exactly) corresponds to decibels, or the Relative scale which directly corresponds to Reference. You are currently using the Absolute setting (or whatever Denon calls it). That 65 number corresponds to -15 on the Relative scale. You can easily reset your volume control to show minus numbers.

Regards,
Mike

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post #31460 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have tried running it with Audyssey, running all 8 positions, and setting crossover to 80Hz and speakers to small instead of large. I have also tried with Audyssey and EQ turned off completely. There wasn't much change either way. The sub is sitting in the same position as the previous one. The other was rear ported and this one is front ported. I've walked around the room and the only place where there is a good amount of low end is when I'm right next to the sub.


It just doesn't seem like it is clean low end... just seems like hardly any low end...



I'm not going to say that my wife and I are bassheads, but we like to feel it when we're listening to music. With this one we can't hardly even hear it, much less feel it. Kind of disappointed.
What you're describing is that maybe something isn't right with the sub or amp?

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post #31461 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have tried running it with Audyssey, running all 8 positions, and setting crossover to 80Hz and speakers to small instead of large. I have also tried with Audyssey and EQ turned off completely. There wasn't much change either way. The sub is sitting in the same position as the previous one. The other was rear ported and this one is front ported. I've walked around the room and the only place where there is a good amount of low end is when I'm right next to the sub.


It just doesn't seem like it is clean low end... just seems like hardly any low end...



I'm not going to say that my wife and I are bassheads, but we like to feel it when we're listening to music. With this one we can't hardly even hear it, much less feel it. Kind of disappointed.
Perhaps send a pic of your amp settings to Enrico or get them on the phone and rule if there is a defect?
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post #31462 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I know people show equal loudness contours to recommend features like dynamic EQ or YPAO volume and subwoofer and/or full range house curves as opposed to flat frequency response for speakers and subs, just with running subs hot.

But to me the former sounds like a gimmick and unbalanced. Everything flat with just subs hot sounds way more neutral/balanced, especially with music but even with HT. So, that always leaves me scratching my head wondering why loudness compensation doesn't sound right to me, even at my -40MV to -30MV listening levels, where it should be quite useful.
FWIW, I don't think that people show the Equal Loudness Curves just to justify or recommend something like DEQ. It's rather that DEQ was specifically designed based on the Equal Loudness Curves. And, it was designed even more specifically with 5.1 movies in mind, as they are the only listening medium where there is a known Reference volume. Whether it actually works exactly as intended, though, is another question.

I have no idea how well DEQ works compared to the Yamaha program you mentioned, but even with DEQ reviews are mixed. It is by far the most controversial software program in the Audyssey suite. Some people love it for everything, and some people don't use it for anything. That's a pretty classic YMMV situation if I have ever seen one.

Perhaps some of the difference in opinion regarding software which tries to compensate for different frequencies at different volumes (not really simple loudness compensation) depends on the room, and on the specific listening material. But, I believe even more depends on the perceptions and preferences of the individual user. Personally, I just try to explain DEQ if the subject comes up, but that doesn't represent an endorsement of it. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com//forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
I hope that my previous post didn't come off as rude or confrontational... it's just that my ears prefer flat frequency response for both speakers and subs, just running sub hot to get enough bass at my very modest listening levels.

I don't know if this reason I don't like such features or house curves is because of the science behind how these things relate to equal loudness contours

OR

if I would find reference level overpowering with normal flat frequency response and no running things hot and the decreased sensitivity to bass and treble well below reference is actually something I enjoy instead of needing to compensate for.

What I do know is flat frequency response actually sounds good to me, and running my sub hot gives me all the bass I could ever want.

YMMV, just my 2 cents.
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post #31463 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have tried running it with Audyssey, running all 8 positions, and setting crossover to 80Hz and speakers to small instead of large. I have also tried with Audyssey and EQ turned off completely. There wasn't much change either way. The sub is sitting in the same position as the previous one. The other was rear ported and this one is front ported. I've walked around the room and the only place where there is a good amount of low end is when I'm right next to the sub.


It just doesn't seem like it is clean low end... just seems like hardly any low end...



I'm not going to say that my wife and I are bassheads, but we like to feel it when we're listening to music. With this one we can't hardly even hear it, much less feel it. Kind of disappointed.
Did you do a subwoofer crawl? Most likely the spot where the subwoofer is located is not optimal for this particular model. Also you mentioned that during movies the subwoofer plays well but not with music. Are you by any chance listening music in Direct or Pure Direct mode? Those two bypass the subwoofer so make sure the listening mode is set on Stereo.

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post #31464 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Assuming you have placed the new sub exactly where the old one went, I would say that your experience is fairly common for someone unaccustomed to the very low distortion of the Rythmik subs.

Though I would confirm the following to make sure you are getting the most of the sub:

Make sure dynamic volume and dynamic EQ are off. Try both Audyssey on and off. Probably use whatever you did with old sub for consistency sake.

Before you ran, Audyssey did you make sure one port was plugged and bass extension switch was left in the 1P-HT position?

Also, leave sub power in the ON position before running Audyssey to make sure amp is already on when test tones start.

You can add more than 6dB to sw level after Audyssey. Just set sw gain so that Audyssey sets sw level around -10 or -11 and then add whatever you prefer without exceeding 0dB for the sw level. You don't want to enter the positive values, as clipping can result at high SPL.

Make sure all speakers are small with 80Hz crossover or higher if you prefer. Don't lower any crossover from where Audyssey sets them, but you can raise above 80Hz if desired. I use 90Hz or 100Hz for example.

Did you run all 8 positions in Audyssey?
I have tried running it with Audyssey, running all 8 positions, and setting crossover to 80Hz and speakers to small instead of large. I have also tried with Audyssey and EQ turned off completely. There wasn't much change either way. The sub is sitting in the same position as the previous one. The other was rear ported and this one is front ported. I've walked around the room and the only place where there is a good amount of low end is when I'm right next to the sub.


It just doesn't seem like it is clean low end... just seems like hardly any low end...



I'm not going to say that my wife and I are bassheads, but we like to feel it when we're listening to music. With this one we can't hardly even hear it, much less feel it. Kind of disappointed.
Hmm, not sure why that is. I would call Brian or Enrico on the phone and have them run you through various troubleshooting steps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ballantyne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I think your comments show both how deep these subs play and also how precise and articulate the sound is.

How loud do you set the receiver volume to?
My receiver (Denon AVR-s930h) doesn't report volume relative to reference level, but uses some arbitrary scale that I suspect is % of maximum. I had it set to 65 last night.
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Quote:
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My receiver (Denon AVR-s930h) doesn't report volume relative to reference level, but uses some arbitrary scale that I suspect is % of maximum. I had it set to 65 last night.
In your Audio menu, you should have a volume setting that allows you to use either the Absolute scale which sort of (but not exactly) corresponds to decibels, or the Relative scale which directly corresponds to Reference. You are currently using the Absolute setting (or whatever Denon calls it). That 65 number corresponds to -15 on the Relative scale. You can easily reset your volume control to show minus numbers.

Regards,
Mike
-15MV is fairly loud for the L12, so it is indeed impressive at those levels.

If the sub is not running hot, -15MV with Audyssey should be about 100dB plus another 5dB or so for bass management. That is quite loud for the L12. And then there is any additional output required by running the sub hot.

My only concern would be compression on the low end with such listening levels. Do you normally listen at these levels? If so, dual L12s or the L22/LVX12 might be a safer bet in the long run.

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post #31465 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
-15MV is fairly loud for the L12, so it is indeed impressive at those levels.

If the sub is not running hot, -15MV with Audyssey should be about 100dB plus another 5dB or so for bass management. That is quite loud for the L12. And then there is any additional output required by running the sub hot.

My only concern would be compression on the low end with such listening levels. Do you normally listen at these levels? If so, dual L12s or the L22/LVX12 might be a safer bet in the long run.
I don't normally crank it up like that, no. Most of my listening/watching is closer to 40. I was just having fun with the new speakers, but listening that loud all the time would get very tiring. And I hadn't run Audyssey, and I don't think I would want the sub to put out anything more than it already is. The gain knob on the sub is set to 50%, and the sub channel level is currently at 0 (like every other channel). Do you really think I was overdriving my sub? If so I would have expected it to sound strained, instead of effortless.
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post #31466 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have the sub LFE hooked up to my Denon AVR sub out. I have the volume on the sub at about half way. I factory reset the AVR and turn Audyssey and EQ off and boosted the sub level to +6dB. When I watched a bit of a movie, it was pretty good, but nothing earth shattering. From what others have said, I had high expectations to really feel the low end, but in music it is barely audible. I can hear the low end from my front KEF Q150s better than the massive LVX12. Just seems odd to me.
try using line in instead of lfe and post the results back here.
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post #31467 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ballantyne View Post
I don't normally crank it up like that, no. Most of my listening/watching is closer to 40. I was just having fun with the new speakers, but listening that loud all the time would get very tiring. And I hadn't run Audyssey, and I don't think I would want the sub to put out anything more than it already is. The gain knob on the sub is set to 50%, and the sub channel level is currently at 0 (like every other channel). Do you really think I was overdriving my sub? If so I would have expected it to sound strained, instead of effortless.
Since you didn't run Audyssey, I don't know how loud the sub was actually playing (50% gain and 0dB sw level don't really mean much taken in isolation of speaker efficiency and levels in room at MLP).

However, since you used Low-HT (engages rumble filter to protect low end from strong sub 20Hz content) and the limiter is always on for the L series models that have the compact amp (and F8/FM8 and FVX15 also have this amp design), I doubt the sub was harmed in any way (especially with no bad noise from sub heard).

However, I would run Audyssey (even if you just turn it off later to get your sub level/gain and distance calibrated) and I would switch the volume scale to relative so you can get an idea of how loud the sub is playing at any time.

If you normally listen well under that and don't run your sub extremely hot (like more than 10dB, for example), then the L12 should be well within its limits during normal listening.

How big is your room, BTW? And is it open to the rest of the house?


Once you get Audyssey done, you can get any idea of how loud the sub can play at a given master volume (MV) setting as follows:

0MV is 115dB for LFE channel
add 5dB for bass management
add whatever dB running sub hot


So, at -15MV it is (115-15)+5+x (x is dB sub running hot)... so in that case is 105dB plus x, meaning that the sub was playing at a minimum of 105dB assuming the movie has 0dBFS peaks (full scale peaks) and very deep bass content where the sub is most limited in max output.


My LV12R is capable of 101dB at 20Hz max output before room/boundary gain (room gain is based on room size and sealed vs open and boundary is 6dB for midwall placement and 9dB for corner placement approximately... only 3dB in middle of room). The L12 has 3.5dB less at 20Hz so 97.5dB at 20Hz.

So, your sub could start compressing at 97.5dB at 20Hz (depending on room acoustics and placement) and with 105dB+ content, it could be compressing quite a bit. Of course, the 97.5dB figure is at 20Hz, which is very low bass (it could play quite a bit louder at 30Hz and even more so at 80Hz, for example).

The only way to know for sure is to do compression sweeps in REW with a calibrated USB mic, but Audyssey plus an understanding of what the sub can do vs. what you demand of it can help you find a listening listen level that is within the sub's normal capabilities. Maxing out a sub regularly will cause it to fail much sooner. However, at your normal listening levels you would have to turn on Dynamic EQ and/or run things very hot for that to happen.

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post #31468 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 02:05 PM
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Thanks for the info. I won't get a chance to run Audyssey until Sunday, but I shall return and report afterwards.
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post #31469 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Check also the combined impulse response which usually change when you make changes in the target curve or when you boost the subwoofers too much.
What do you expect it to do to the impulse response with a bad filter? I kind of expect that the difference between the frequency range and the sample rate will mean minimum artifacts with IIR in the subwoofer region.

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post #31470 of 40624 Old 11-17-2017, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have the sub LFE hooked up to my Denon AVR sub out. I have the volume on the sub at about half way. I factory reset the AVR and turn Audyssey and EQ off and boosted the sub level to +6dB. When I watched a bit of a movie, it was pretty good, but nothing earth shattering. From what others have said, I had high expectations to really feel the low end, but in music it is barely audible. I can hear the low end from my front KEF Q150s better than the massive LVX12. Just seems odd to me.
try using line in instead of lfe and post the results back here.
Unless his sub is out of phase with the speakers and he needs to adjust the phase knob to fix that I doubt it will help... might actually hurt by limiting upper extension to 90Hz instead of the 200Hz with LFE input.

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