Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1050 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31471 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 02:02 PM
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1st thing i did was turn my mv down around -35 and turn my gain knob to max and slowly increase volume...then i slowly turn down gain while increase mv to max 0mv. in my space this is around 2/3rd gain on sub amp. i listen to music..it might be too hot for movies.

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post #31472 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Unless his sub is out of phase with the speakers and he needs to adjust the phase knob to fix that I doubt it will help... might actually hurt by limiting upper extension to 90Hz instead of the 200Hz with LFE input.
figured it can't hurt. i accidentally used the lfe in on mine and it was extremely lackluster. line in works great though.


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post #31473 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Unless his sub is out of phase with the speakers and he needs to adjust the phase knob to fix that I doubt it will help... might actually hurt by limiting upper extension to 90Hz instead of the 200Hz with LFE input.
figured it can't hurt. i accidentally used the lfe in on mine and it was extremely lackluster. line in works great though.
What was wrong with LFE input on your sub? I don't understand why Line In would sound much better. In my room, both are quite similar except that Line In is thinner on the top end/crossover region due to the undefeatable LPF.

Line In on mine appears to integrate with speakers a bit better in REW in terms of crossover region frequency response, but not audibly so as I prefer the LFE input's fuller sound.

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post #31474 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What was wrong with LFE input on your sub? I don't understand why Line In would sound much better. In my room, both are quite similar except that Line In is thinner on the top end/crossover region due to the undefeatable LPF.

Line In on mine appears to integrate with speakers a bit better in REW in terms of crossover region frequency response, but not audibly so as I prefer the LFE input's fuller sound.
the crossover appeared to be much higher with lfe and i wasn't getting as much output at lower frequencies. i know plenty of people use lfe vs line in, but i'm not one of them.


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post #31475 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What was wrong with LFE input on your sub? I don't understand why Line In would sound much better. In my room, both are quite similar except that Line In is thinner on the top end/crossover region due to the undefeatable LPF.

Line In on mine appears to integrate with speakers a bit better in REW in terms of crossover region frequency response, but not audibly so as I prefer the LFE input's fuller sound.
the crossover appeared to be much higher with lfe and i wasn't getting as much output at lower frequencies. i know plenty of people use lfe vs line in, but i'm not one of them.
I see

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post #31476 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Mark,

Please check the Dialing in Rythmik Subwoofers Guide by @laulau . You have to properly run Audyssey to get good results. Also, if you factory reset the AVR after running Audyssey, then you lost Audyssey calibration results and you have to run it again.
I'm please to report that after our talk, the sub seems to be in much better shape now. I reran Audyssey and on the first run it set the sub level at -3, so I turn it up until it reported -10.5. After that, I played a bass track that someone mentioned earlier. Things started falling off the cabinets. Much much much better.


Listening to a normal song made the bass seem a little lower than I'm used to, but was much better than yesterday. A major thanks to you and to everyone else in here that helped! After a few days I will come back and report any new findings.
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post #31477 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I'm please to report that after our talk, the sub seems to be in much better shape now. I reran Audyssey and on the first run it set the sub level at -3, so I turn it up until it reported -10.5. After that, I played a bass track that someone mentioned earlier. Things started falling off the cabinets. Much much much better.


Listening to a normal song made the bass seem a little lower than I'm used to, but was much better than yesterday. A major thanks to you and to everyone else in here that helped! After a few days I will come back and report any new findings.
Good to know that all is working better now after our phone call. Did you increase the subwoofer level in the receiver post Audyssey? Like I said, if Audyssey set the level for the subwoofer at -10.5dB, feel free to increase the level in the receiver subwoofer level up to -3.5dB or -2.5dB which means you are running the subwoofer between +7dB and +8dB hot. Of course, if increasing the level only +3dB is OK for you, then that's totally fine too. I run my subwoofers +8dB hot

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #31478 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Good to know that all is working better now after our phone call. Did you increase the subwoofer level in the receiver post Audyssey? Like I said, if Audyssey set the level for the subwoofer at -10.5dB, feel free to increase the level in the receiver subwoofer level up to -3.5dB or -2.5dB which means you are running the subwoofer between +7dB and +8dB hot. Of course, if increasing the level only +3dB is OK for you, then that's totally fine too. I run my subwoofers +8dB hot
Wow! That's crazy! I'll keep messing with mine and may up it a little bit, but so far I'm much happier! Thanks again!
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post #31479 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
Wow! That's crazy! I'll keep messing with mine and may up it a little bit, but so far I'm much happier! Thanks again!
To increase the level for the subwoofer go to: Setup/Speakers/Manual Setup/Levels/Test Tone Start. Then go to Subwoofer and increase the level until you feel is enough.

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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
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post #31480 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 07:26 PM
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F15 vs F15HP

May I know what is the output difference between an F15 and F15 HP at 20 Hz and across the board. Please also compare it with F12 too.
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post #31481 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
figured it can't hurt. i accidentally used the lfe in on mine and it was extremely lackluster. line in works great though.
I am also are using line in now. I use the PEQ to help set up the sub.
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post #31482 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post
May I know what is the output difference between an F15 and F15 HP at 20 Hz and across the board. Please also compare it with F12 too.
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F8/FM8: -1.5db
L12: -1db
LV12R: +2.5db
F15: +3db
D15SE: +3db
L22: + 4db
LVX12: +4db
E15HP: + 5db
F15HP: +5.5db
F18: +7.5db
FVX15: +8db
F25: +9db
FV15HP: +11db
FV18: +14db
FV25HP: +18db
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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
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post #31483 of 40443 Old 11-17-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I know people show equal loudness contours to recommend features like dynamic EQ or YPAO volume and subwoofer and/or full range house curves as opposed to flat frequency response for speakers and subs, just with running subs hot.

But to me the former sounds like a gimmick and unbalanced. Everything flat with just subs hot sounds way more neutral/balanced, especially with music but even with HT. So, that always leaves me scratching my head wondering why loudness compensation doesn't sound right to me, even at my -40MV to -30MV listening levels, where it should be quite useful.
I agree (except regarding house curves).
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post #31484 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F8/FM8: -1.5db
L12: -1db
LV12R: +2.5db
F15: +3db
D15SE: +3db
L22: + 4db
LVX12: +4db
E15HP: + 5db
F15HP: +5.5db
F18: +7.5db
FVX15: +8db
F25: +9db
FV15HP: +11db
FV18: +14db
FV25HP: +18db
What about the E15HP2?
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post #31485 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F8/FM8: -1.5db
L12: -1db
LV12R: +2.5db
F15: +3db
D15SE: +3db
L22: + 4db
LVX12: +4db
E15HP: + 5db
F15HP: +5.5db
F18: +7.5db
FVX15: +8db
F25: +9db
FV15HP: +11db
FV18: +14db
FV25HP: +18db
This continues to reinforce my belief that the FV15HP is a bargain.
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post #31486 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rkj View Post
What about the E15HP2?
I need to double check with Brian, but if I recall the E15HP2 is +6.5dB

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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #31487 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I need to double check with Brian, but if I recall the E15HP2 is +6.5dB
Would any of the other DS1510 driver based subs also benefit from a DS1520 + HX1000XLR3 option?

Is the F18 in any way amplifier limited? Could it benefit from a higher power amp option?
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post #31488 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
Listening to a normal song made the bass seem a little lower than I'm used to, but was much better than yesterday. A major thanks to you and to everyone else in here that helped! After a few days I will come back and report any new findings.
In fact, that is normal. But what you should notice is more detail and image is more focused.

There are some discussion of TR in this thread. Now Josh's databass has a test called compression. Therefore everyone thinks the only bad things that a sub can have in addition to distortion is compression, meaning lost in output. Can the opposite of compression take place in a sub with poor non-linearity? You bet. First think about the transistor in the amp. A lot of them them follow square curve. A square curve means the output increases more lineary than the input. So at 1 volt, the output is 1volt. But when the input increases to 2, the output increases to 4. That is what we call superlinear. The higher order it is, the more rapid it increases with input level. For 3 harmonic distortion, it follows x^3 polynomial. So at 1 volt, the output is 1 volt and at 2 volt inputs, the output increases to 8 volt . What I described here is just a general idea. In reality, the amount of x^2 and x^3 polynomials depends on the coefficients. For instance, in our case the coefficient can be 0.05 for the x^3 case, and at 2 volt inputs, the real output is 2volts + 0.05x8volts to 2.4volts. But the general trend is true, the higher the order of distortion, the more rapid increase the output exhibits from normal level to loud level.

Now that is just the amp. The driver can also exhibit similar behavior, but through a different mechanism. When we talk about driver, we cannot leave out the so-called BL curve. BL value is also called "Force factor". When drivers get into nonlinearity at excursion extremes, the BL force factor value drops significantly compared to BL value at the rest position. So our intuition is that when force factor value drops, we should expect a drop in output. That is mostly true except around the frequency range that driver's impedance is moderately higher than DCR. For sealed subs, that is between 15hz to 30hz (and much higher for PA subs). For ported subs, that is from 5 hz to 30hz excluding the port tuning frequency. When that happens, the low BL value actually makes the cone move faster, sort of like escape, or out-of-control. So the distortion mechanism in the driver is even more complex than that in the amplifiers because in the latter, the characterisitc seems to be frequency independent whereas in drivers, compression and expansion can happen at the same time, but at different frequencies. Lower BL value also contributes to high Q or more time domain ringing.

So in short, it may be a shock that how much less the bass is when you listen to our subs. But in fact, the bass is more coherent as you hear more and more of the CD you are familiar with. It can reproduce detail that you may not have noticed in other subs.

Last edited by Rythmik; 11-18-2017 at 11:27 AM.
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post #31489 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I need to double check with Brian, but if I recall the E15HP2 is +6.5dB

The actual test is more like +6db at 20hz. The main reason is F18 is really more efficient at 20hz and below with a larger enclosure and a large cone. In fact the lower it goes below 20hz, the more efficient F18 is. We assume the customers with E15HP2 will not push for more output below 20hz. Turning on the rumble filter for E15HP/E15HP2 is recommended when playing at max SPL. Only for moderate level, it is ok with rumble filter OFF. For compact sub like E15HP/E15HP2, the lower it goes below 20hz, the more thermal stress it has on the driver.

Last edited by Rythmik; 11-18-2017 at 10:50 AM.
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post #31490 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@mthomas47 has posted some great information in the past about our perception of bass frequencies in relation to others as well as overall volume. I like listening to home theater bass close to reference levels while keeping my overall volume ~10dB below reference.

Mike, do you have that post archived?

Keep in mind, this curve is assuming our mathematical model of Fourier Transform (FT) is exactly how our ears hear sound. That is not quite true. The lost connection is same phase reverberation with a 100ms delay (or inverse phase reverberation with 50ms delay) and a tone of 10hz continuous sine wave both map the waveform to an energy at 10hz , but our ear can tell these two things apart. FT is really for engineering convenience. After we establish that, we proceed to make "assumption" as a "fact". In fact, our brain detects changes more than steady state. This applies to almost all of our senses. A lower extended sub is to reproduce the sound more completely, not just for bass or a study showing these curves.
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Last edited by Rythmik; 11-18-2017 at 11:28 AM.
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post #31491 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Mark,

Please check the Dialing in Rythmik Subwoofers Guide by @laulau . You have to properly run Audyssey to get good results. Also, if you factory reset the AVR after running Audyssey, then you lost Audyssey calibration results and you have to run it again.
I'm please to report that after our talk, the sub seems to be in much better shape now. I reran Audyssey and on the first run it set the sub level at -3, so I turn it up until it reported -10.5. After that, I played a bass track that someone mentioned earlier. Things started falling off the cabinets. Much much much better. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com//forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


Listening to a normal song made the bass seem a little lower than I'm used to, but was much better than yesterday. A major thanks to you and to everyone else in here that helped! After a few days I will come back and report any new findings. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.avsforum.com//forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Curious... what changes did you make to resolve the issue?

Samsung 55" MU8000
Yamaha RX-A2070
KEF Q150 Bookshelf x 5
Rythmik L12 Sealed Subwoofer
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post #31492 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Keep in mind, this curve is assuming our mathematical model of Fourier Transform (FT) is exactly how our ears hear sound. That is not quite true. The lost connection is same phase reverberation with a 100ms delay (or inverse phase reverberation with 50ms delay) and a tone of 10hz continuous sine wave both map the waveform to an energy at 10hz , but our ear can tell these two things apart. FT is really for engineering convenience. After we establish that, we proceed to make "assumption" as a "fact". In fact, our brain detects changes more than steady state. This applies to almost all of our senses. A lower extended sub is to reproduce the sound more completely, not just for bass or a study showing these curves.
Hi Brian,

I always enjoy reading your explanations, although some of the more technical aspects you discuss are sometimes beyond me. But, in addition to the point that you made, it is also worth noting that according to the Equal Loudness Curves an increase in SPL of 10db (1 phon) = a doubling in volume at 1000Hz, by definition. But, that definition of a doubling in volume at 1000Hz = 10db is based on an average of human hearing. Different individuals may hear different frequencies either louder or softer than the Equal Loudness Curves suggest. So, there is also a YMMV aspect to the curves.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31493 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Curious... what changes did you make to resolve the issue?


Followed some advice from Enrico. I reran Audyssey to get the sub level to -10.5 and then bumped it up from there.


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post #31494 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Brian,

I always enjoy reading your explanations, although some of the more technical aspects you discuss are sometimes beyond me. But, in addition to the point that you made, it is also worth noting that according to the Equal Loudness Curves an increase in SPL of 10db (1 phon) = a doubling in volume at 1000Hz, by definition. But, that definition of a doubling in volume at 1000Hz = 10db is based on an average of human hearing. Different individuals may hear different frequencies either louder or softer than the Equal Loudness Curves suggest. So, there is also a YMMV aspect to the curves.

Regards,
Mike
Another point is that a plot like phon is valuable to a musican to interpret how many different strength level he or she can use which is not an exact science. But as engineers, we still need 16bit encoding (or 64K resolution) for music reproduction.
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post #31495 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Another point is that a plot like phon is valuable to a musican to interpret how many different strength level he or she can use which is not an exact science. But as engineers, we still need 16bit encoding (or 64K resolution) for music reproduction.
Brian, the plot was simply posted to illustrate a point. We were discussing what Dynamic EQs and Loudness controls are attempting to do as well as why many of us prefer to run subs hot.

Here is the Wikipedia page on Equal Loudness Contours: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

I think perhaps things got a we bit overcomplicated for the original topic under discussion.
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post #31496 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
When we talk about driver, we cannot leave out the so-called BL curve. BL value is also called "Force factor". When drivers get into nonlinearity at excursion extremes, the BL force factor value drops significantly compared to BL value at the rest position. So our intuition is that when force factor value drops, we should expect a drop in output. That is mostly true except around the frequency range that driver's impedance is moderately higher than DCR. For sealed subs, that is between 15hz to 30hz (and much higher for PA subs).

So exactly how lower BL value at excursion extremes can make cone move faster and have extra output? This is becasue the voltage that we apply to a driver V=I*R+BL*v, where V is the voltage value, I is the current going through the driver, R is the DC resistance, BL is the force factor, and v is the velocity of the cone. Speaker drivers impedance is not a constant. At the impedance peak, the current draw from the driver is very small. Therefore the first component I*R can be dropped. That means the eq can be simplified as V=BL*v. If BL drops to 70% of nominal value, the cone velocity increases to 140% of normal value. So the more we drive a driver into nonlinear range of the curve, the more output a driver can give.


These days, every manufactuer pushes for higher output, it does not always keep the driver operation within its linear range. Sometimes this extra kick is what some customers like to hear.
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post #31497 of 40443 Old 11-18-2017, 06:33 PM
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in my car audio days 30% distortion was the standard I built subs. usually tuned at 40hz.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #31498 of 40443 Old 11-19-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
This continues to reinforce my belief that the FV15HP is a bargain.
No doubt about it but not sure why suddenly it's output numbers jump up?.
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post #31499 of 40443 Old 11-19-2017, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post
No doubt about it but not sure why suddenly it's output numbers jump up?.
Output numbers are the same. We can't change data-bass.com numbers. Our output scale between Rythmik Audio subwoofers is relative to the F12 which is the baseline and is the F12 and all 12" models the ones went down by -1.5dB so that's why you are perceiving the contrary.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #31500 of 40443 Old 11-19-2017, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
Listening to a normal song made the bass seem a little lower than I'm used to, but was much better than yesterday. A major thanks to you and to everyone else in here that helped! After a few days I will come back and report any new findings.
When I first got my F18 I had similar concerns, but it seemed to just need a little breaking in. I'll standby for someone with more technical knowledge to let me know if that was my imagination or just me getting used to a different type of bass.

Also Brian/Enrico: I spoke with UPS in two different calls for almost an hour on Friday regarding their mishandling of my shipment. For some reason they had closed the investigation but then reopened it once I returned their call and provided some details. I did what I could to give them as much information as possible to make sure you guys got squared away. After the first call they called me back again as if I'd never spoken to them, and I explained everything a second time and then some. Seems like they don't run the tightest ship over there.
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