Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1078 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #32311 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 12:58 PM
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some people might be mixing different size subs/brands thru upgraditis

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post #32312 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Mine are set to auto or else the power to them is turned off. I have them plugged into Wemo insight switches. They’re rarely turned off when I’m watching, but I can say things like “Alexa turn off the subs” or “Alexa turn off the tactiles” or “Alexa turn off all bass” and off they go. My wife uses those commands more than i do



The insight switches also let me see their avg power draw and monthly estimated cost. Let’s just say with the little one I have at home and 2 more on the way (identical twin girls) these won’t be getting turned up often anytime soon.

I never knew you could add your own pics to WEMO devices/groups. I'm always learning something new from other member here on AVS!🖒

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post #32313 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
And that's really what's important. You have to satisfy yourself. If you want more sub, buy more sub. All the rest is meaningless.
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Hey Enrico, remind me when the F18 kits are supposed to be available. Hopefully by March??
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Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post
Nice. I don't see them on the website; do you have a cost for those?

Thanks a bunch.
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$995 with shipping included.
This can't be right! I'll take 4 at this price.
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post #32314 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:13 PM
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i'm very familiar with harmon's sub research. jean & hugo @ audioholics talk about it all the time too. thing is, i only have one real sub placement in my room which is where they are now. also, adding a 3rd fv25 would be adding 50% more cone area, which in theory results in having to push all of the drivers less hard to get the same output they give now at a given volume (this happens every time you add more drivers). adding a third will probably not be as dramatic as going from 1 to 2, but if anything i bet there will be more tactile response.

oh, and it will look really, really good.
If the primary reason for going with the third subwoofer is because you will like the aesthetic looks of having a third one, then I say go for it. But, if you think that there is going to be an improvement in sound quality... I'm not so sure. As I just mentioned, you might get another 2 dB output in headroom. However, the rest of what will happen is not quite so great. In the attached file you will see a snippet of Harmon's research. They did a brute force optimization simulation as to where 2 subs would be placed in the room and then for 3 subs. As you can see by going with 3 subs over 2 the standard deviation is worse factor of 2, the max minus min is worse by a factor of 3 and the max minus average is worse by a factor of 2. Essentially, the standing waves have been made worse by going with 3 subs over 2 and I would say that this is not by a little bit, but by a lot.

As you say, there is not much flexibility of placement for the subs already in your room. So it sounds like the Geddes approach to get rid of the standing waves will not work. I suggest either getting a microphone and REW to play around with the phase of one of the subwoofers to try to minimize the standing waves. This is like moving the subwoofer around the room, if you can't actually physically move it around. From what I understand, if you want a more automated approach, then you could get a receiver with Audyssey MultiEq XT 32 and SubEq and it has the ability to do this same thing. This will much less time consuming than adjusting the phase a few degrees at a time and then measuring in each seat and repeating over and over.
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post #32315 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:22 PM
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@serith if you want to fill that gap and add performance consider adding a JTR Cap 4000 ULF in the middle! Otherwise just buy an empty F18 or F25 box w/grill.
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post #32316 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:24 PM
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This can't be right! I'll take 4 at this price.
Totally right!! The DS1820 CI Kit includes the DS1820 driver, HX1000XLR3 amp, wires, gaskets, screws and polyfil. Price is $995 shipped. The only thing you need is to build your own box and we can send you the F18 plans as well to do so.

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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #32317 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
If the primary reason for going with the third subwoofer is because you will like the aesthetic looks of having a third one, then I say go for it. But, if you think that there is going to be an improvement in sound quality... I'm not so sure. As I just mentioned, you might get another 2 dB output in headroom. However, the rest of what will happen is not quite so great. In the attached file you will see a snippet of Harmon's research. They did a brute force optimization simulation as to where 2 subs would be placed in the room and then for 3 subs. As you can see by going with 3 subs over 2 the standard deviation is worse factor of 2, the max minus min is worse by a factor of 3 and the max minus average is worse by a factor of 2. Essentially, the standing waves have been made worse by going with 3 subs over 2 and I would say that this is not by a little bit, but by a lot.

As you say, there is not much flexibility of placement for the subs already in your room. So it sounds like the Geddes approach to get rid of the standing waves will not work. I suggest either getting a microphone and REW to play around with the phase of one of the subwoofers to try to minimize the standing waves. This is like moving the subwoofer around the room, if you can't actually physically move it around. From what I understand, if you want a more automated approach, then you could get a receiver with Audyssey MultiEq XT 32 and SubEq and it has the ability to do this same thing. This will much less time consuming than adjusting the phase a few degrees at a time and then measuring in each seat and repeating over and over.
i think going from four to six 15" drivers spread across the rear of my room evenly will if nothing else give more tactile response, help with seat to seat response, look awesome, and should yield a bit more volume. have i hit the point of diminishing returns per $ spent? probably! but you know what those charts don't show? the fun factor
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post #32318 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:30 PM
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BTW doubling subs gains +6dB because you are doubling both amplification and drivers. Adding a 3rd FV25 would net @serith 3dB of extra headroom which he likely doesn't need.
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post #32319 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Totally right!! The DS1820 CI Kit includes the DS1820 driver, HX1000XLR3 amp, wires, gaskets, screws and polyfil. Price is $995 shipped. The only thing you need is to build your own box and we can send you the F18 plans as well to do so.
I glazed right over the word "kits".

I actually did talk to Brian about 4 of these kits because I wanted just a 18" depth. The kits just weren't ready yet at that time.
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post #32320 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:42 PM
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i think going from four to six 15" drivers spread across the rear of my room evenly will if nothing else give more tactile response, help with seat to seat response, look awesome, and should yield a bit more volume. have i hit the point of diminishing returns per $ spent? probably! but you know what those charts don't show? the fun factor
Nice .

I agree that you will have definitely reached the point of diminishing returns at that point. It's funny, the Harmon research also played around with simulations of 50 and 5,000 subwoofers in the room. Surprisingly, the improvements in standing waves are actually very very small in comparison to just 2 or 4 well placed subs. As long as the room is sealed and rectangular in shape.

I'll just throw one other think out there, because maybe you will find it helpful. Audioholics had a recent article discussing how the body reacts to bass frequencies 250 Hz and below: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acou...ation-of-sound

So if you like have a certain feeling that you would like to get more of via the bass, then you could go after boosting that range of frequencies with EQ. What I found most interesting is where they mentioned that the "chest punch" that many seem to like is actually from frequencies above 100 Hz. I have heard countless people going with bigger subs and more subs in the search for more of this chest punch, but really it sounds like one might need to boosting the frequencies from say 100 to 250 Hz to get more of this sensation. This might mean upgrading your mains, if they are starting to strain or sound harsh when you try boosting things here. Sure the subwoofer will be helping a little bit, but with an 80 Hz crossover, a lot of the heavy lifting is being passed off from the subwoofer to the mains above 100 Hz.
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post #32321 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 01:50 PM
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Nice .

I agree that you will have definitely reached the point of diminishing returns at that point. It's funny, the Harmon research also played around with simulations of 50 and 5,000 subwoofers in the room. Surprisingly, the improvements in standing waves are actually very very small in comparison to just 2 or 4 well placed subs. As long as the room is sealed and rectangular in shape.

I'll just throw one other think out there, because maybe you will find it helpful. Audioholics had a recent article discussing how the body reacts to bass frequencies 250 Hz and below: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acou...ation-of-sound

So if you like have a certain feeling that you would like to get more of via the bass, then you could go after boosting that range of frequencies with EQ. What I found most interesting is where they mentioned that the "chest punch" that many seem to like is actually from frequencies above 100 Hz. I have heard countless people going with bigger subs and more subs in the search for more of this chest punch, but really it sounds like one might need to boosting the frequencies from say 100 to 250 Hz to get more of this sensation. This might mean upgrading your mains, if they are starting to strain or sound harsh when you try boosting things here. Sure the subwoofer will be helping a little bit, but with an 80 Hz crossover, a lot of the heavy lifting is being passed off from the subwoofer to the mains above 100 Hz.
yeah for sure. the psa speakers i just picked up have a ton of chest slam that you mention. the really good stuff is all <30hz though.


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post #32322 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 02:05 PM
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I glazed right over the word "kits".

I actually did talk to Brian about 4 of these kits because I wanted just a 18" depth. The kits just weren't ready yet at that time.
Same thing is trying to do another forum member but with the DS1820 CI Vented Kit. He is asking Jim Salk to build a Custom FV18 but only 22" tall. Of course, doing that will reduce internal volume by 30% which also brings performance and frequency response down to 21Hz.

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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #32323 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 02:05 PM
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i respect harmans research but i dont have a home theater/rect rm/sealed....curious how vertical subs effect sound...i noticed n advantage with fv25hp height over my 3 other normal subs...wonder if others like subs higher than normal/stacked?

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post #32324 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 02:26 PM
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I was explaining to my family today what upgraditis is. At least to me. I started with 3 Sony HTiBs (5.1ch). I really only meant to get one but these were really cheap entry level ones which all had issues with the included AVRs at some point. Also, the speakers and sub included in each were both very small and nothing special.

The Yamaha HTiB that replaced the third Sony was a pretty good AVR with okay but, like with the Sony, tiny speakers and sub. At the time placement and calibration was terrible, as I did not know or care much about anything other than getting surround sound for movies, games, and TV with more power and loudness/impact than the TV's built in speakers. I just assumed running the room EQ program in in AVR would fix any problems with placement or setup.

In early 2015, I replaced my front 3 speakers with Sony Core bookshelves and center and the improvement was so great over the tiny HTiB satellites and mini center that I soon replaced the sub with the Dayton Audio SUB-1200 and surrounds with Cambridge Audio S20 mini bookshelves. I also greatly improved placement and setup with both advice on the forum and REW and eventually the MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced for sub PEQ, which was well worth the effort.

In a year or so, I was so addicted to the improvement in both speakers and sub and placement/setup/calibration that I upgraded the sub again to my current Rythmik LV12R and front 3 speakers to SVS prime bookshelves and center. My Sony bookshelves became the surrounds (and Cambridge ones became rear surrounds after getting the 2070).

I knew that the AVR was the remaining weak link and so a year later got my Yamaha 2070.

The interesting thing is that the the biggest gains came in the first phase of upgrades, and with maximizing the setup. Going to the Rythmik sub and SVS front speakers was still a big improvement but not as extreme. The Yamaha AVR was a bigger improvement than I expected, but I did go from the RX-V375 to the RX-A2070 so aside from not going for the flagship 3070, I couldn't have made a bigger jump in terms of Yamaha AVRs.

At this point, I have decided that my audio upgrades are done for at least 5 years, and I will need to save up for a couple years to get a 55" OLED or whatever is best in a darkened room in probably 2020.

Even though, I am probably one of the more conservative members here in terms of upgrades, I still think often of how a could upgrade the sub, speakers, or even find better placement options in my room. I would say audio upgrades in the beginning stages offer huge improvement for small sums of cash and also there is a lot of improvement regarding setup because those brand new to HT don't know much about it. After that, one has to spend 2-4 times the money to get an improvement that is even remotely comparable to the initial stage of upgrades. And the law of diminishing returns becomes more and more applicable every time one upgrades their audio equipment.

So, it is basically an addiction and spending too much time on the forums tends to amplify that. :P

Perhaps the thing that keeps me from just enjoying what I have and not thinking about how to make it even just 5% better is that whenever you upgrade/tweak setup, there is a clear difference/improvement even if it is only 10-15% better or less and that feeling you get when hooking up your new toy(s) for the first time is really good.

Anyhow, my point is AVS is great for improving ones HT, less so for one's wallet or being 100% satisfied with one's current setup. Whenever I upgrade anything in my HT, my family asks what is wrong with the existing components and I answer nothing at all, it just could be even better. They sort of understand it after hearing the difference, but HT is not their passion so...

I have found the info in this thread in particular quite helpful at improving my audio experience and yet at the same time it seems to push me further down the rabbit hole. Kinda like a double edged sword or something like that
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post #32325 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 02:50 PM
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audio equipment can last a long time...my dad still using his mcintosh advent sae system from 70's....so I say spend the coin on speakers and amps/pre amps for music.
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post #32326 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 03:02 PM
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audio equipment can last a long time...my dad still using his mcintosh advent sae system from 70's....so I say spend the coin on speakers and amps/pre amps for music.
That's a good point; devices like TVs, AVRs/Pre-Pros, and bd players/streaming devices change every year, especially since the advent of HDMI.

Another thing is that you can get great sounding speakers today at much lower prices than you could decades ago, because of technological advances in design, materials, and manufacturing.

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post #32327 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 03:04 PM
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audio equipment can last a long time...my dad still using his mcintosh advent sae system from 70's....so I say spend the coin on speakers and amps/pre amps for music.
seriously! there's a reason i bought & use a budget projector. that technology changes rapidly and i refuse to spend more than i have to on it. audio though? the shelf life is infinitely longer. i just replaced my l/r speakers last week that were from the 1980s. i'm still using an amplifier from the 1970s. look at how fast people upgrade their video tech though. feels like people upgrade tv's as often as they do their smartphones either chasing contrast levels or new features & gimmicks (hdr, 3d, smart-apps, etc).
i was hesitant to even spend $ on a receiver because they suffer from the same problems (if not worse) than video tech because of the formats & codecs always changing, so i bought in as cheap as i could to get what i want out of it and nothing more.
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post #32328 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 03:12 PM
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curious how vertical subs effect sound...i noticed n advantage with fv25hp height over my 3 other normal subs...wonder if others like subs higher than normal/stacked?
I actually prefer these subs laying down sideways like @serith has them. It will depend on the room if a vertical orientation excites room modes differently. The boundary gain of having the drivers horizontal on the floor can make a difference.

In a corner veritical will be best.

Have you tried the FV25 horizontal?
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post #32329 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 03:25 PM
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oh, and it will look really, really good.
I totally agree
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post #32330 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post

What I found most interesting is where they mentioned that the "chest punch" that many seem to like is actually from frequencies above 100 Hz. I have heard countless people going with bigger subs and more subs in the search for more of this chest punch, but really it sounds like one might need to boosting the frequencies from say 100 to 250 Hz to get more of this sensation. This might mean upgrading your mains, if they are starting to strain or sound harsh when you try boosting things here. Sure the subwoofer will be helping a little bit, but with an 80 Hz crossover, a lot of the heavy lifting is being passed off from the subwoofer to the mains above 100 Hz.
Exactly. Bigger, better subs give your system headroom, reduces the power load on the mains, and give you that queazy, strange feeling in your gut when the sub 20Hz weird LFE kicks in. For chest punch you want big pro-driver-style mains like the JBL 4722n's, JTR 215's, or some of the bigger DIYSG offerings that can blow the doors off the hinges from 100-250Hz.
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post #32331 of 39064 Old 01-13-2018, 03:39 PM
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I actually prefer these subs laying down sideways like @serith has them. It will depend on the room if a vertical orientation excites room modes differently. The boundary gain of having the drivers horizontal on the floor can make a difference.

In a corner veritical will be best.

Have you tried the FV25 horizontal?
no just vertical in total 3 spots...its in my kitchen nook corner and kicks butt there.

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post #32332 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 05:45 AM
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Decision made finally! Planing on the F18 on this Saturday sad thing I'm still waiting on the Marantz 8805 to be released. New 7 new GIK room acoustic panels (mix of Alpha and Impression line) in place of old ones are in and a new Emotiva 7 ch amp for Atmos and rear channel duties (replaces 8 ch amp). Setup has been 7.1.4 for about 2 yrs now and was already fantastic but the added treatments and F18 will take it to the next level in performance. I'll get some pics up hopefully this weekend as I'm more than sure that the decssion to go with the F18 is betting on the right horse in this crazy world of sub choices these days!



Thanks for all the assistance in helping me choose
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post #32333 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 06:17 AM
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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I actually prefer these subs laying down sideways like @serith has them. It will depend on the room if a vertical orientation excites room modes differently. The boundary gain of having the drivers horizontal on the floor can make a difference.

In a corner veritical will be best.

Have you tried the FV25 horizontal?


Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
i respect harmans research but i dont have a home theater/rect rm/sealed....curious how vertical subs effect sound...i noticed n advantage with fv25hp height over my 3 other normal subs...wonder if others like subs higher than normal/stacked?
When i got my second FV15HP, which was before I got my SR-6011 AVR with Audyssey XT32, the best FR and sound I could get from the subs in my oddly shaped and large room was actually by stacking them in a corner. I didn’t have them like this long (I was eventually convinced to get the SR6011 from some forum members), but it did work likely because it was dealing with vertical nulls or other standing waves somehow. When I got the new AVR, I separated the subs and Audyssey took care of the rest.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
...The Yamaha AVR was a bigger improvement than I expected, but I did go from the RX-V375 to the RX-A2070 so aside from not going for the flagship 3070, I couldn't have made a bigger jump in terms of Yamaha AVRs.

At this point, I have decided that my audio upgrades are done for at least 5 years, and I will need to save up for a couple years to get a 55" OLED or whatever is best in a darkened room in probably 2020.

I agree that the AVR was my largest upgrade as well. Mainly because Pioneers base MCACC in the Elite VSX-44 i had does not even come close to stacking up to Audyssey XT32. I also like Marantz’s sound profile a bit more than pioneer. I’ve found it to be a better match for my core B&W speaker setup both for movies and for music. Pioneer, in retrospect emphasizes mids and can sound a bit harsher at times (at least in my room). Marantz has a smoother and more melodic sound to it. Of course that could be Audyssey’s midrange compensation at work.

| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |

Last edited by citsur86; 01-14-2018 at 06:21 AM.
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post #32334 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 06:36 AM
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Hey @citsur86 , appreciate the comments wrt AVR upgrades and sound "flavoring". I'm looking at the 7012 to upgrade from an old Pioneer Elite that predates even hdmi switching, so want to make sure and choose wisely. I've had no issues with the Pioneer's SQ, but am really looking forward to a modern room correction program, especially given my room involves a very open and echoey floorplan.

- Born half deaf in the 60's and cranking it to 11 ever since.
Living Room: Audio: Pioneer Elite VSX-26tx in 2.1 with Behringer B215XL and Dayton SUB-1500, Video: Roku Ultra and PS4 to an XBR65X930E
Home Gym: Denon DRA-395 in 2.0 with Klipsch KLF-10
wishlist - new LR AVR and Rythmik sub
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post #32335 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serith View Post
I think going from four to six 15" drivers spread across the rear of my room evenly will if nothing else give more tactile response, help with seat to seat response, look awesome, and should yield a bit more volume. Have I hit the point of diminishing returns per $ spent? Probably! But you know what those charts don't show? The fun factor
As Schrodinger23 has mentioned, it is possible that you are "gilding the lily" by investing in a third FV25HP, and there appears to be a potential downside from three symmetrically positioned subs creating uneven bass response within the room. The Geddes approach does call for 3 subwoofers, but in an asymmetrical arrangement. Looking at the pictures you've posted of your Home Theater, I can't tell if there could actually be room along the side walls for a third sub, though that might decrease the aesthetic factor for you significantly.

You may also want to ponder what other improvements you could be making in your HT (or, as enricoclaudio's "better angel" has suggested, in your retirement account) if you held off on your purchase of the third FV25HP. Have Rythmik subs become your opioid of choice? Is an intervention needed...?!

Routinely stumbling down rabbit holes...
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post #32336 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Exactly. Bigger, better subs give your system headroom, reduces the power load on the mains, and give you that queazy, strange feeling in your gut when the sub 20Hz weird LFE kicks in. For chest punch you want big pro-driver-style mains like the JBL 4722n's, JTR 215's, or some of the bigger DIYSG offerings that can blow the doors off the hinges from 100-250Hz.
The point I was trying to make was that we sometimes spend lots of money and it won’t even give us what we are looking for. The audioholics article discusses how some researchers have found that chest punch is in the 100 to 250 Hz region. The person who wrote the article found that it is at around 60 Hz, but the 100 Hz and up region gives more a tactile sensation throughout the body. The best approach to to make sure that you get 2 or 4 subs that are capable for the output that you want, taking into account your room size and the same thing with your mains.

Honestly it is really easy to think that you need much more than you really do, especially if you spend a lot of time on these AVS boards. If you go to a movie theater, they are shooting for reference volume, with is 85 dB average from all speakers and as much as 115 dB peaks in the LFE channel, but only as much as 105 dB peaks from the rest of the speakers. Josh Ricci who does the Data-bass measurements found that in his room (which is somewhere between 3000 and 3500 ft^3) he can cleanly hit reference volume peaks if you were to have two Rythmik FV18 subs in there. I think that his room is not even sealed and has at least one opening or at least a hallway. If he is only sitting 10 to 12 feet away from his main speakers, then just about any tower can likely hit the 105 dB peaks just fine as well. I’m talking about SVS towers, Aperion towers, Ascend towers, etc., then any of those would be fine. If he is sitting 20 or 25 feet away, then he might need to look into some of those high output speakers that you are referring to.

But, here’s the thing, reference volume in a small room is actually very loud. I go to the movie theaters all the time and I don’t find it fatiguing to watch one movie at those loud levels. If I do two or three in a row, it might start to get a little fatiguing. But, in a smaller room like any of us have at home, that is no longer the case. I suggest you get an SPL meter and watch a very action movies at home. Go ahead and crank it up. I’m guessing that you will find it uncomfortable before you hit reference volume levels. If so, then you can use data-bass measurements to figure out how much subwoofer you need in your room. You can look at the manufacturer specs to figure out which speakers will give you the output you want. If you only go after speakers and sub looking for as much output as possible, then you might be missing out on even more important design attributes. Rythmik subs not only give you good output for the money, but they are also very detailed and accurate because they have good transient response, and because the servo technology makes sure that it stays true to the signal even when it it pushed hard. Many other sub manufacturers primarily focus on output numbers per dollar, and this explains why they sometimes don’t blend well with the main speakers and don’t really sound as good as some other subs with music. Even more so, this is important in the remaining speakers. If we just look for high output capabilities, then we might miss out on a speaker that has good transient response (to match our Rythmik sub well), that has wide dispersion off axis (so that the sound we get from the room nicely matches what we hear on axis), that is accurate if that is what we are looking for, etc.
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post #32337 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhowards View Post
As Schrodinger23 has mentioned, it is possible that you are "gilding the lily" by investing in a third FV25HP, and there appears to be a potential downside from three symmetrically positioned subs creating uneven bass response within the room. The Geddes approach does call for 3 subwoofers, but in an asymmetrical arrangement. Looking at the pictures you've posted of your Home Theater, I can't tell if there could actually be room along the side walls for a third sub, though that might decrease the aesthetic factor for you significantly.

You may also want to ponder what other improvements you could be making in your HT (or, as enricoclaudio's "better angel" has suggested, in your retirement account) if you held off on your purchase of the third FV25HP. Have Rythmik subs become your opioid of choice? Is an intervention needed...?!
$2500 is is awefully close to the price of a very nice 65 inch OLED display. Or half the way to an excellent HDR projector. These are not subtle upgrades, if one is currently using a high definition display. Though I would wait a year or two on that front, because it still feels like they are ironing out details if you want this to be a once in 10 year purchase.
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post #32338 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
The point I was trying to make was that we sometimes spend lots of money and it won’t even give us what we are looking for. The audioholics article discusses how some researchers have found that chest punch is in the 100 to 250 Hz region. The person who wrote the article found that it is at around 60 Hz, but the 100 Hz and up region gives more a tactile sensation throughout the body. The best approach to to make sure that you get 2 or 4 subs that are capable for the output that you want, taking into account your room size and the same thing with your mains.
My point was I like big subs and big efficient drivers in my mains, although they serve different purposes.

Your point was not lost on me, however.
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post #32339 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
The point I was trying to make was that we sometimes spend lots of money and it won’t even give us what we are looking for.

...

Honestly it is really easy to think that you need much more than you really do, especially if you spend a lot of time on these AVS boards. If you go to a movie theater, they are shooting for reference volume, with is 85 dB average from all speakers and as much as 115 dB peaks in the LFE channel, but only as much as 105 dB peaks from the rest of the speakers.

...

But, here’s the thing, reference volume in a small room is actually very loud. I go to the movie theaters all the time and I don’t find it fatiguing to watch one movie at those loud levels. If I do two or three in a row, it might start to get a little fatiguing. But, in a smaller room like any of us have at home, that is no longer the case. I suggest you get an SPL meter and watch a very action movies at home. Go ahead and crank it up. I’m guessing that you will find it uncomfortable before you hit reference volume levels.
Yes. This. This is why I'm perfectly happy with my pair of LVX12s in my mid-sized sealed room, while many posters here are pining away for 3 or 4 FV18s or FV25HPs.

The thing is, the LVX12s get me up into the shoulder of the curve. Up into the region where small increments in improved performance cost (very) big increments of money.

For example, my pair of LVX12s cost me just under $1500. A pair of FV25HPs costs just under $5000. That's 3.3x. Will I get 3.3x improvement in sound quality for this 3.3x increase in cost? No, I will not. Not even close.

The reason for this is that my LVX12s play loud enough for just about anything I throw at it. I doubt I have more than a handful of sources that can test them at the levels I play at (which are below reference because of the small room, as Schrodinger23 points out). So what I'd gain by replacing my LVX12s with FV25HPs is lower end reach. Which again, I have few sources that go significantly below what the LVX12s give me at the levels I'm using. And yes, I have played the lead-in sine waves in Edge of Tomorrow with really quite satisfactory results. Room rattles and everything. And the rest of the movie ain't bad even if the deep low end sine waves don't reappear.

So I'd spend an extra $3500 and gain maybe (and this is highly subjective, as I'm sure many on this thread will let me know shortly) 5-10% in capability, and that capability I would seldom use.

I'm not saying that no one should ever buy the bigger subs. Far from it. What I'm saying is that people should think about what they really need and buy what they really need. I'm agreeing with Schrodinger23.
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Last edited by Bruce Watson; 01-14-2018 at 08:21 AM.
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post #32340 of 39064 Old 01-14-2018, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Exactly. Bigger, better subs give your system headroom, reduces the power load on the mains, and give you that queazy, strange feeling in your gut when the sub 20Hz weird LFE kicks in. For chest punch you want big pro-driver-style mains like the JBL 4722n's, JTR 215's, or some of the bigger DIYSG offerings that can blow the doors off the hinges from 100-250Hz.
The point I was trying to make was that we sometimes spend lots of money and it won?t even give us what we are looking for. The audioholics article discusses how some researchers have found that chest punch is in the 100 to 250 Hz region. The person who wrote the article found that it is at around 60 Hz, but the 100 Hz and up region gives more a tactile sensation throughout the body. The best approach to to make sure that you get 2 or 4 subs that are capable for the output that you want, taking into account your room size and the same thing with your mains.

Honestly it is really easy to think that you need much more than you really do, especially if you spend a lot of time on these AVS boards. If you go to a movie theater, they are shooting for reference volume, with is 85 dB average from all speakers and as much as 115 dB peaks in the LFE channel, but only as much as 105 dB peaks from the rest of the speakers. Josh Ricci who does the Data-bass measurements found that in his room (which is somewhere between 3000 and 3500 ft^3) he can cleanly hit reference volume peaks if you were to have two Rythmik FV18 subs in there. I think that his room is not even sealed and has at least one opening or at least a hallway. If he is only sitting 10 to 12 feet away from his main speakers, then just about any tower can likely hit the 105 dB peaks just fine as well. I?m talking about SVS towers, Aperion towers, Ascend towers, etc., then any of those would be fine. If he is sitting 20 or 25 feet away, then he might need to look into some of those high output speakers that you are referring to.

But, here?s the thing, reference volume in a small room is actually very loud. I go to the movie theaters all the time and I don?t find it fatiguing to watch one movie at those loud levels. If I do two or three in a row, it might start to get a little fatiguing. But, in a smaller room like any of us have at home, that is no longer the case. I suggest you get an SPL meter and watch a very action movies at home. Go ahead and crank it up. I?m guessing that you will find it uncomfortable before you hit reference volume levels. If so, then you can use data-bass measurements to figure out how much subwoofer you need in your room. You can look at the manufacturer specs to figure out which speakers will give you the output you want. If you only go after speakers and sub looking for as much output as possible, then you might be missing out on even more important design attributes. Rythmik subs not only give you good output for the money, but they are also very detailed and accurate because they have good transient response, and because the servo technology makes sure that it stays true to the signal even when it it pushed hard. Many other sub manufacturers primarily focus on output numbers per dollar, and this explains why they sometimes don?t blend well with the main speakers and don?t really sound as good as some other subs with music. Even more so, this is important in the remaining speakers. If we just look for high output capabilities, then we might miss out on a speaker that has good transient response (to match our Rythmik sub well), that has wide dispersion off axis (so that the sound we get from the room nicely matches what we hear on axis), that is accurate if that is what we are looking for, etc.
I wholeheartedly agree with the points you make. For example, for my listening levels and room size, even the bookshelf speakers and 1 LV12R are technically overkill for my usage. Yet if I spend enough time on AVS, I could be convinced I need high efficiency speakers and a pair of FV15HPs or more. But the reality is I don't. Not saying no one needs those things, just that my room is very small and my listening levels are very modest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
The point I was trying to make was that we sometimes spend lots of money and it won?t even give us what we are looking for.

...

Honestly it is really easy to think that you need much more than you really do, especially if you spend a lot of time on these AVS boards. If you go to a movie theater, they are shooting for reference volume, with is 85 dB average from all speakers and as much as 115 dB peaks in the LFE channel, but only as much as 105 dB peaks from the rest of the speakers.

...

But, here?s the thing, reference volume in a small room is actually very loud. I go to the movie theaters all the time and I don?t find it fatiguing to watch one movie at those loud levels. If I do two or three in a row, it might start to get a little fatiguing. But, in a smaller room like any of us have at home, that is no longer the case. I suggest you get an SPL meter and watch a very action movies at home. Go ahead and crank it up. I?m guessing that you will find it uncomfortable before you hit reference volume levels.
Yes. This. This is why I'm perfectly happy with my pair of LVX12s in my mid-sized sealed room, while many posters here are pining away for 3 or 4 FV18s or FV25HPs.

The thing is, the LVX12s get me up into the shoulder of the curve. Up into the region where small increments in improved performance cost (very) big increments of money.

For example, my pair of LVX12s cost me just under $1500. A pair of FV25HPs costs just under $5000. That's 3.3x. Will I get 3.3x improvement in sound quality for this 3.3x increase in cost? No, I will not. Not even close.

The reason for this is that my LVX12s play loud enough for just about anything I throw at it. I doubt I have more than a handful of sources that can test them at the levels I play at (which are below reference because of the small room, as Schrodinger23 points out). So what I'd gain by replacing my LVX12s with FV25HPs is lower end reach. Which again, I have few sources that go significantly below what the LVX12s give me at the levels I'm using. And yes, I have played the lead-in sine waves in Edge of Tomorrow with really quite satisfactory results. Room rattles and everything. And the rest of the movie ain't bad even if the deep low end sine waves don't reappear.

So I'd spend an extra $3500 and gain maybe (and this is highly subjective, as I'm sure many on this thread will let me know shortly) 5-10% in capability, and that capability I would seldom use.

I'm not saying that no one should ever buy the bigger subs. Far from it. What I'm saying is that people should think about what they really need and buy what they really need. I'm agreeing with Schrodinger23.
This is was a big part of my post yesterday, that everyone is talking about getting multiple F18s, FV18, and FV25HPs, but really those extreme levels of output don't make sense for the average ht, because the room is not that large and the added output is likely wasted on most.

Yeah, one can say extra headroom is always a good thing, but if like you say your LVX12s already have more than enough for your needs, that adding tons of extra headroom doesn't add anything meaningful. Not to mention the extra cost and floorspace needed plus the immense weight of these bigger subs.
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