Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1140 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #34171 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
I've been using both outputs and got the +6dB gain boost. I think it's this weak 0.9Vrms output. I think i may have to just live with it until i pick up a certified refurbished Denon with Audyssey XT32 and get all speakers equally EQ.



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Better yet, get a new one for a similar price. The x3400h and x4400h should be going on clearance around August.
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post #34172 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Thanks. That is HDMI 4.



You're right that reference is 115dB for peaks, yes, but not for sustained output. And that's at the theatre. In-home reference level is 10dB less, so 75dB from mains with 95dB peaks, and 85db from subs with 105dB peaks.
I'm pretty sure that speakers calibrated to Reference Level will be 85dB(105dB peaks) for main channels and 95dB (115dB peaks) for LFE - whether it's at home or the cinema.I think most agree that this will "feel" much louder at home due to small room acoustics and choose to listen at a lower volume. Maybe @mthomas47 or @Marc Alexander can correct me if I'm wrong?
When I use REW output HDMI4 with the MV at 0dB I get a 115dB(ish) sweep
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Last edited by jamiebosco; 06-26-2018 at 10:02 AM. Reason: spelled Marc's name wrong!
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post #34173 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Thanks. That is HDMI 4.

You're right that reference is 115dB for peaks, yes, but not for sustained output. And that's at the theatre. In-home reference level is 10dB less, so 75dB from mains with 95dB peaks, and 85db from subs with 105dB peaks.
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
I'm pretty sure that speakers calibrated to Reference Level will be 85dB(105dB peaks) for main channels and 95dB (115dB peaks) for LFE - whether it's at home or the cinema.I think most agree that this will "feel" much louder at home due to small room acoustics and choose to listen at a lower volume. Maybe @mthomas47 or @Mark Alexander can correct me if I'm wrong?
When I use REW output HDMI4 with the MV at 0dB I get a 115dB(ish) sweep

Hi,

This issue can be a little complicated sometimes, but Jamie is correct. Reference is, by definition, peaks of up to 105db for the regular channels and 115db for the LFE channel. That is true for both commercial cinemas and home theaters.

Several things make HT a little more confusing. First, our AVR's and test discs use a 75db test tone to calibrate our systems to Reference. At one time, 85db test tones were used, but they were too loud for most people. Even the 75db test tones can seem very loud to some people, and 85db is exactly twice that loud.

After the calibration is complete, our AVR's do an internal recalculation to add 10db to the regular channels. It was already compensating for the LFE channel, since that channel is also calibrated with a 75db test tone. After calibration, when the master volume is 0.0 and depending on specific content, the regular channels will be hitting peaks of 105db (if they are capable of doing so) and the LFE channel will be hitting peaks of 115db.

The second thing that sometimes makes HT Reference a little more complicated is that in an HT of about 20,000^3 or less (which is virtually all HT's) Reference sounds louder than it does in a commercial cinema. Smaller rooms seem to amplify the apparent loudness. Commercial theaters are much larger than 20,000^3. Various audio experts estimate that home theaters can sound anywhere from 5 to 8db louder than commercial cinemas at "Reference". Small HT's of about 1500^3 or less would sound the loudest and very large HT's might sound only about 5db louder--perhaps even less so if they were heavily treated.

It can be a little confusing in actual application to individual home theaters, but the basic principles don't change: Reference is peaks of up to 105db for the regular channels and 115db for the LFE channel.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #34174 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Thanks. That is HDMI 4.



You're right that reference is 115dB for peaks, yes, but not for sustained output. And that's at the theatre. In-home reference level is 10dB less, so 75dB from mains with 95dB peaks, and 85db from subs with 105dB peaks.
I'm pretty sure that speakers calibrated to Reference Level will be 85dB(105dB peaks) for main channels and 95dB (115dB peaks) for LFE - whether it's at home or the cinema.I think most agree that this will "feel" much louder at home due to small room acoustics and choose to listen at a lower volume. Maybe @mthomas47 or @Mark Alexander can correct me if I'm wrong?
When I use REW output HDMI4 with the MV at 0dB I get a 115dB(ish) sweep
Since I saw no compression, it's possible there was more gas in the tank. That was right after Audyssey, without increasing sub levels, which many do.
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post #34175 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Since I saw no compression, it's possible there was more gas in the tank. That was right after Audyssey, without increasing sub levels, which many do.
Agreed,I'm sure in that small of a room they still had more to go, I was just wondering why at 0dB MV using HDMI4 you were only showing a ~105dB sweep, perhaps the dBFS was set to -10dB? (just a guess as I'm not sure and a bit of a REW noob)

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post #34176 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by muscles View Post
I will be comparing them to the SB16's and JL Audio Fathom F113's. The S3611 won't be available for me for 6 weeks give or take. If I am blown away by the G25's I will stop my hunt for a new sub and sell the SVS and JL's for an insane discount to free up some of the space in my house lol.

Greg
Never heard the SB's but the JL's were one of the few subs I managed to hear before getting my Rythmiks. Be interested in reading your impressions. You know which way I went. I thought Rythmik's performance a bit better but not "huge"; the cost difference was significant, so for roughly equivalent or better performance, Rythmik was a much better value. B&W was a disappointment, Paradigm was good but at 3x to 5x the cost, ditto Velodyne, not sure what else I heard. I did not put a lot of faith in listening tests because rooms and systems varied so much and maximum output was not one of my target goals.
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post #34177 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Since I saw no compression, it's possible there was more gas in the tank. That was right after Audyssey, without increasing sub levels, which many do.
Agreed,I'm sure in that small of a room they still had more to go, I was just wondering why at 0dB MV using HDMI4 you were only showing a ~105dB sweep, perhaps the dBFS was set to -10dB? (just a guess as I'm not sure and a bit of a REW noob)
Well I'm not an expert either, but that does make me wonder. I did see a -10 or -12 in there. Should that be changed?

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post #34178 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Well I'm not an expert either, but that does make me wonder. I did see a -10 or -12 in there. Should that be changed?
for a simple frequency response graph it doesn't matter, but for compression testing I think it does. dBFS stands for "Decibels relative to Full Scale", so a -10dBFS setting in REW means the generated signal will be 10dB lower than "Full Scale" ie instead of 115dB at 0dB MV on HDMI4, you will get 105dB (as I understand it)
When I did compression testing on my subs I used the method @Marc Alexander describes here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56141482









Quote:
Here is the way I perform the compression sweeps:
  • Set the AVR volume to reference volume, 0dB in most cases.
  • Adjust the sweep levels from within REW. I generally start at -30dBFS on HDMI4 to be safe.
  • Increase sweep level +3dB at a time until compression is visible.
  • There will be some compression around port tune. Stop when compression is visible across the entire sweep range.
except I went up 5dB at a time up to -10dBFS,then +3dB from there on.


*Also remember to turn off DynEQ as it will skew the results*

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post #34179 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 10:47 AM
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That makes sense, and explains why I ran out of volume control before I ran out of output. I will redo the measurements with this in mind and with the new sub location that I dialed in last night.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
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post #34180 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
As you should be, though not as nervous as the walls of your room...

Be sure to read the setup guides and ask questions here as needed. You might want to consider looking into REW to help get the most of the subs in your room. And don't overlook the personal help that Enrico and Brian can provide.
I got a lot of good advice here from Enrico, Brian, and others after I got my FV18s. I also got a lot of help from many knowledgeable posters to the AVS REW thread after I bought a UMIK-1 microphone and took the measurements that REW provided. Looking back on it, I never made a more useful purchase than a UMIK-1, thanks in large part to a lot of help from my friends.
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post #34181 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 12:13 PM
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FWIWFM:

Re. compression sweeps: Brian and/or Enrico posted someplace in this thread about running them, and hopefully will again, but do be aware they are very stressful on the driver and amplifier. Allow plenty of time between sweeps for everything to cool down a bit, and stop when you see the onset of compression -- no need to continue to failure.

Re. reference level -- as stated earlier, a reference is just that, and it does not matter if you are at home or at the theater. Most AVRs calibrate using test tones that are -20 dB to -30 dB from the reference level in the interest of saving ears, electronics, and speakers then simply add the appropriate gain factor.

IME/IMO - Don

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post #34182 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 03:41 PM
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FV 18 is home

I've got her in and installed. Just a small upgrade from old to new. ;-)



I've just discovered that my windows rattle - a LOT. Here's hoping that it's not too hard to troubleshoot.
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post #34183 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 04:17 PM
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I've got her in and installed. Just a small upgrade from old to new. ;-)



I've just discovered that my windows rattle - a LOT. Here's hoping that it's not too hard to troubleshoot.
You can barely tell the difference!?

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post #34184 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 04:38 PM
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I've got her in and installed. Just a small upgrade from old to new. ;-)

I've just discovered that my windows rattle - a LOT. Here's hoping that it's not too hard to troubleshoot.
As I've said before, the problem with sub upgrades is not the cost of the subs, it's the cost of remodeling the house...
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post #34185 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MC-MD View Post
I've got her in and installed. Just a small upgrade from old to new. ;-)







I've just discovered that my windows rattle - a LOT. Here's hoping that it's not too hard to troubleshoot.


As a wise man once told me....

I have this behind all my photos (living room home theater). Not sure how it will or could work for windows though!


| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
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post #34186 of 40624 Old 06-26-2018, 06:26 PM
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I've got her in and installed. Just a small upgrade from old to new. ;-)



I've just discovered that my windows rattle - a LOT. Here's hoping that it's not too hard to troubleshoot.

So, what is the smaller sub in that pic?
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post #34187 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 05:45 AM
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That makes sense, and explains why I ran out of volume control before I ran out of output. I will redo the measurements with this in mind and with the new sub location that I dialed in last night.
I run all of my systems this way. That way if there’s an unexpected massive transient I’ve got plenty of gas. Besides, I know my natural tendencies to crank everything to 11 and this provides a safe governor to my own stupidity.

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G25HP First Impressions

Got this text from Charlton early this morning:

Hey. This is Charlton, Jason's friend. Jason and I listened to his Rythmik G25HP last night. The subwoofer reached 15 Hz as a corner frequency at Jason's listening position. The subwoofer produced a tight, clean sound. Incredible! In addition, I like the damping, extension, PEQ, and rumble filter controls on the subwoofer. I have measurements for all nine settings for his listening position. It gave us the flexibility to dial in the sound. In his listening room, I like the 14 Hi/Med settings with no rumble filter while listening to music. If you need a small write up on the subwoofer, please let us know.

I already asked Jason for measurements, pictures and a write up to post over here and in our FB page!! Looking good the G25HP

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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^ NICE!!! Is this the first one? When will they be on the website? And what about kits for a G28?
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^ NICE!!! Is this the first one? When will they be on the website? And what about kits for a G28?
Brian is building the G25 link with specs but they are selling even without any info published yet. We got 4 x black matte and 5 black oak on June 12th. Jim Wilson is getting one black oak this week, Jason got a black oak and Greg got a pair in black matte so as of today we have 3 x black oak left and 2 x black matte left. We will have piano black and more black oak and black matte coming in mid-August container. There is no kit for G28. Somebody contacted me asking about FV28. We have no plans on making a FV28 (yet). Size and weight are the limitation. We don't have the man power resources to handle a subwoofer the size of the FV28. We barely can handle the FV25. To assemble a FV25 takes about 90 mins and it's a 2 men job. When we were doing the photo session back in October last year, just to put the FV25 on top of the table (15" high) we had to take the amplifier out to free up some weight, take the front pictures, then put it down, take the drivers out and put the amp in, then put the FV25 on the table to take the amp side pictures. By that time we were 4 people (Brian, Rick, Ben and me). In a regular basic week, it's Rick and Brian assembling. Sometimes only Rick. When Brian goes out of town, we can't ship FV25s unless they are pre assembled. Like Brian mentioned, F28 is on the works again. We don't have an ETA yet, though.
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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #34191 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 05:59 PM
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Turns out the original sub location was better when it's all said and done. And it sounds way better - the most important thing. So in the end, 2 houses in a row with very different rooms favored the same sub locations, indicating something inherent in the physics rather than just luck: on the front wall behind the TV (brings speakers out into the room, too), and on the back wall, both right in the center line of the room. Something about the center of the wall gives much better response.

Sub 1 and Sub 2 in their respective locations pre-Audyssey. Where one is weak, the other is strong, and they will average to form a good response together:
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The effect of Audyssey on the graph is subtle because I already had them meshing pretty well:
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And as much as I'd like to cross at 80Hz, the room and the equipment are telling me 90-100Hz:
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I'll keep tweaking to see if I can do an 80Hz crossover (I actually think I left the XO in the AVR at 100 - that would explain the rolloff of the mains there!).

No smoothing on any of the graphs.

Now midbass from the main speakers is a whole other animal, and I usually admit defeat there and end up with some kind of compromise. Subs aren't too difficult to get dialed in - but get 2 of them, and have a little patience and a knack for experimentation.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
PC: Micca OriGen G2 | Mackie MR624 (2)

Last edited by Soulburner; 06-27-2018 at 06:04 PM.
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post #34192 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Turns out the original sub location was better when it's all said and done. And it sounds way better - the most important thing. So in the end, 2 houses in a row with very different rooms favored the same sub locations, indicating something inherent in the physics rather than just luck: on the front wall behind the TV (brings speakers out into the room, too), and on the back wall, both right in the center line of the room. Something about the center of the wall gives much better response.

Sub 1 and Sub 2 in their respective locations pre-Audyssey. Where one is weak, the other is strong, and they will average to form a good response together:
Attachment 2421310

The effect of Audyssey on the graph is subtle because I already had them meshing pretty well:
Attachment 2421312

And as much as I'd like to cross at 80Hz, the room and the equipment are telling me 90-100Hz:
Attachment 2421314

I'll keep tweaking to see if I can do an 80Hz crossover (I actually think I left the XO in the AVR at 100 - that would explain the rolloff of the mains there!).

No smoothing on any of the graphs.

Now midbass from the main speakers is a whole other animal, and I usually admit defeat there and end up with some kind of compromise. Subs aren't too difficult to get dialed in - but get 2 of them, and have a little patience and a knack for experimentation.
That's a fantastic pre-Audyssey graph, and exactly what you want- Audyssey only doing small amounts of EQ to smooth things out, great job!
Personally I'd just go with 100hz if that's what the REW is telling you, unless localization is a problem?
Can you show some sweeps of speakers + subs crossed at 80,90 and 100hz?

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post #34193 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
That's a fantastic pre-Audyssey graph, and exactly what you want- Audyssey only doing small amounts of EQ to smooth things out, great job!
Personally I'd just go with 100hz if that's what the REW is telling you, unless localization is a problem?
Can you show some sweeps of speakers + subs crossed at 80,90 and 100hz?
Thanks man, I am happy with the measurements. Some critical listening will be needed soon after my seating arrives, and of course a final Audyssey run. Just wanted to get the subs in place so I had less to do later. So I'll work on the main speakers + subs together on Saturday since the seating will affect the mains.

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post #34194 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Turns out the original sub location was better when it's all said and done. And it sounds way better - the most important thing. So in the end, 2 houses in a row with very different rooms favored the same sub locations, indicating something inherent in the physics rather than just luck: on the front wall behind the TV (brings speakers out into the room, too), and on the back wall, both right in the center line of the room. Something about the center of the wall gives much better response.
Well, that was one of the best sub layouts that came out of Harman's research on the subject IIRC. I'm curious about the shape and size of your room. Dimensions, sealed vs open to other spaces, are both subs on the same level or is the rear sub on a seating riser, etc.

My room will be 14'x19' sealed, with 9'2" ceiling the first 13' of depth, and then a 21" riser the remaining 6' of depth. I would love to do 2 F28 in the same arrangement you have, but I keep going back to 4 F18 for maximum placement flexibility. Your experience has me thinking that perhaps I shouldn't worry - and it would be nice to save the money by getting two boxes instead of four.


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post #34195 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 08:40 PM
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G25HP Black Oak Pictures!!

Here you go!! (Pictures courtesy of Jason Davis)



















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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Here you go!! (Pictures courtesy of Jason Davis)









































Reminds me of the submersive HPs


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post #34197 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 08:47 PM
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Cool looking sub. Now in which direction do you point it?, lol.

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post #34198 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 08:51 PM
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After seeing the first picture I realized how convenient is a dual opposed design when calibrating and setting up the subwoofer for the first time. Jason placed the subwoofer in the corner with the amp facing up front during calibration for fine tuning. Then when you finish setup, just rotate the subwoofer 180 degrees and you are done. Just make sure to mark the front with a masking tape like Jason did.
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post #34199 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 08:59 PM
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Cool looking sub. Now in which direction do you point it?, lol.

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Just like your FV15HP, with one driver facing the front and the other facing the wall. 4" to 5" from back wall is more than enough. You can also place it with the drivers facing the sides then you will get a clean black wooden panel facing the front. When we were calibrating @imureh pair of Submersives we got the best sound when the drivers were facing front and back wall. In imureh's case, back driver was only 2" from back wall.
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post #34200 of 40624 Old 06-27-2018, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
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Well, that was one of the best sub layouts that came out of Harman's research on the subject IIRC. I'm curious about the shape and size of your room. Dimensions, sealed vs open to other spaces, are both subs on the same level or is the rear sub on a seating riser, etc.
First room was a big L-shaped living room, 21 feet by 25 feet by 8 feet. Open to the rest of the house. Setup as shown. Max SPL I could achieve from the subs was 100-105dB with high extension, rumble filter on, though I didn't run them like that normally. I was able to flatten the response incredibly well with the 2 subs and get a nice rumble under my seat. I always use Low Extension and Hi Damping, Rumble Filter Off and I don't listen at insane levels.

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Current room is a 17 x 10.5 x 8 bedroom, though I keep one door open for ventilation, which also seems to help prevent a dip at 60-70Hz. Quick video of room: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OU...S2rRqYfvClL8Ag. Same configuration as before. This room should be good for 5-10dB more SPL, though listening at those levels would be insane and very bad for my hearing. Bass sounds similar and I get that rumble under the seat as before.

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My room will be 14'x19' sealed, with 9'2" ceiling the first 13' of depth, and then a 21" riser the remaining 6' of depth. I would love to do 2 F28 in the same arrangement you have, but I keep going back to 4 F18 for maximum placement flexibility. Your experience has me thinking that perhaps I shouldn't worry - and it would be nice to save the money by getting two boxes instead of four.
My experience with sealed rooms is that it is harder to tame bass modes. Having an open door seems to let a little energy out which prevents it from bunching up as much. Not scientific, but that's my guess. But good placement, some PEQ, and room correction should get you there. Depending on your output goals, the Rythmik site has the F18 as +7.5dB over the F12 at 20Hz. Two of them would already be pretty badass in your relatively small room, I think. 4 would be insane, as would 2xF28. Keep in mind you'll get a lot of room gain. Even my little F12s don't show any loss in output at 15Hz. I haven't measured lower, the walls already creak from the pressure and things are rattling at 15Hz . The only other thing I would say is that fans of vented subs for movies talk about the wind you feel coming from the ports, which can add to the movie experience. I haven't experienced that myself, but it makes me curious to know if I'd like vented for the extra visceral effect.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Polk LSiM 702 F/X (2) | Infinity RS152 (4) | Subs TBD (2)
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Last edited by Soulburner; 06-27-2018 at 11:07 PM.
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