Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1160 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #34771 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B T C View Post
Maybe someday I'll break out the whips and chains and try manual calibration. Is that what people are doing when they talk REW, UMIK, Mini-DSP etc.? I know absolutely nothing about any of that stuff. Is that a manual approach to what YPAO, Audyssey, ARC etc. are doing in terms of room EQ?
Measuring with REW is not necessarily a replacement for automated room correction (YPAO, Audyssey, etc.). It can be used to analyze your in-room response and to then make changes to your AVR settings, PEQ, sub/speaker location, room treatments, etc. to enhance what the automated room correction has already done.

A MiniDSP is not necessarily required either. Most frequency response issues can be alleviated with proper placement, room treatment and auto-EQ programs. It is only when these fall short that outboard EQ should be considered.

All that being said, with REW and the proper MiniDSP unit, you can indeed manually EQ your entire system. However, most folks around here only use the MiniDSP 2x4 to EQ their subs because auto-EQ programs usually do a very good job with the higher frequencies. The sub region can be much more problematic because it is very much influenced by the room itself.
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post #34772 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
Yes it has already tried that. Though it not occur on heavily bass song. It only occur on some songs where I could notice that theres no bass from sub but i can still hear bass on from the front speaker. My avr crossover is 80hz maybe changing to 100hz.
You turned it on and it made no difference? I do not know the amp in the LVX12 but if it is auto-only that would explain your results. I would try boosting the trim in the AVR to provide the sub more signal (and turning down the sub's gain correspondingly), and/or using a Y cable to drive both inputs of the sub's amp, to see if more signal helps. The former is easy -- if your trim is at -6 or whatever, turn it to 0 or even +6, turn down the sub's gain control an equal amount, and see if the issue goes away.

It is also possible the songs with no bass have no bass, or they have bass at a frequency at which you are in a null in the main listening position (MLP), etc.

HTH - Don

Edit: I see Brian responded, do what he says!

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #34773 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
I had Lvx12 for a week now and been rewatching some of my movies. I'm not an audiophile but watching tron legacy i can really felt the bass on my body and room fill with bass. But playing flight of the phoenix with plane fying in the storm i dont feel it with lvx12 but i felt it before with my ED A3-300 feeling like yor also inside the plane. Does this movies had different frequencies or i still need to tune up my lvx12.Thanks.
I would just like to add that I don't think content is the issue at all. This scene (FotP) is one of the most intense there is. However, this very scene is one in which I noticed that there was a large disparity in TR between the Rythmik FV18 and JTR Caps 118HT and 1400 (regardless of settings on the FV18).

The ED A3-300 is no slouch and could very well have more tactile feel than the LVX12. Harmonic distortion (which Rythmik has very little of) often helps with scenes like this which is just a cacophony of wind and the plane being ripped apart.
@enricoclaudio did provide me some suggestion with helped the tactile response on the Rythmik. Run with all ports open with low damping (2P mode).

I don't believe the LVX12 has PEQ. What AVR are you using? Perhaps there is a PEQ or curve editor to increase response centered at 63Hz. This help with TR.
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post #34774 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Measuring with REW is not necessarily a replacement for automated room correction (YPAO, Audyssey, etc.). It can be used to analyze your in-room response and to then make changes to your AVR settings, PEQ, sub/speaker location, room treatments, etc. to enhance what the automated room correction has already done.

A MiniDSP is not necessarily required either. Most frequency response issues can be alleviated with proper placement, room treatment and auto-EQ programs. It is only when these fall short that outboard EQ should be considered.

All that being said, with REW and the proper MiniDSP unit, you can indeed manually EQ your entire system. However, most folks around here only use the MiniDSP 2x4 to EQ their subs because auto-EQ programs usually do a very good job with the higher frequencies. The sub region can be much more problematic because it is very much influenced by the room itself.
Thank you.
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post #34775 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 02:35 PM
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Brian already mentioned about the new port caps for the FV15HP so I started getting PM asking me about this. Before my mail box gets full, here is how the new port caps look like.

Port tubes are exactly the same, 3.5" but the port cap is a bit bigger in diameter at the end so doing this we can reduce the airflow velocity by 20% which would reduce port noise as well. Before anybody ask, this update is NOT possible for current FV15HP customers because the opening of the port is different and the port tube length is different as well.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |

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post #34776 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 02:50 PM
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I was considering adding buttkickers to my theater but the love seat we sit on already shakes quite a bit from the nearby FV15HP and the 8" subwoofers in all the Paradigm speakers. Has anybody here with Rythmik's added buttkickers and benefitted? Please share!

Sharp 80-inch 3D LED TV, Yamaha RX-A3070 Receiver, Outlaw 5000 Amplifier
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FV15HP Rythmik subwoofer
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post #34777 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
I got your email. Let me assume your question is about so called "FV15HP2". I need to clarify there is no plan for such model after I built a prototype with 3 ports on a FV15HP enclosure. It failed to show sufficient improvement. That is counter intuitive because a 3-port is supposed to add more port opening area and therefore allow higher output. But in reality the ports need to bend and additional ports and longer ports take away effective enclosure volume. In short if one needs more ports on FV15HP, the logical route is go with FV18. As a result, in order to keep its compact design and straight ports, our plan is to continue FV15HP with current design except we have a revised port cap, potentially reducing the air velocity from the port by 20% or more.
What does the reduced air velocity do to improve the performance?
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post #34778 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 04:47 PM
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^^^ Reduced air velocity reduces port noise as Enrico said earlier. Assuming the tube lengths are adjusted to maintain the same tuning frequency, essentially no significant other change, at least to first order (and probably second), IIRC. Lower velocity implies lower internal pressure which can improve driver control and lower distortion, but I do not expect that to make much difference with a servo and it sounds like this is a fairly minor change (as such things go). But been a long time since my acoustics class...
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post #34779 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I would just like to add that I don't think content is the issue at all. This scene (FotP) is one of the most intense there is. However, this very scene is one in which I noticed that there was a large disparity in TR between the Rythmik FV18 and JTR Caps 118HT and 1400 (regardless of settings on the FV18).

The ED A3-300 is no slouch and could very well have more tactile feel than the LVX12. Harmonic distortion (which Rythmik has very little of) often helps with scenes like this which is just a cacophony of wind and the plane being ripped apart.
@enricoclaudio did provide me some suggestion with helped the tactile response on the Rythmik. Run with all ports open with low damping (2P mode).

I don't believe the LVX12 has PEQ. What AVR are you using? Perhaps there is a PEQ or curve editor to increase response centered at 63Hz. This help with TR.
Yes Marc as previously noted don't felt the bass FotP like there no subwoofer at all .I tried dark knight starting when the robber shoot the arrow then sliding on the cable i should have felt the bass but nothing, also in gravity is the same...I had my 5 yr pio SC75 and there no bass PEQ on it. I hope could troubleshoot more and test all my bass movies i had when kids going to school next week before deciding to return if nothing I could do.
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post #34780 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
You turned it on and it made no difference? I do not know the amp in the LVX12 but if it is auto-only that would explain your results. I would try boosting the trim in the AVR to provide the sub more signal (and turning down the sub's gain correspondingly), and/or using a Y cable to drive both inputs of the sub's amp, to see if more signal helps. The former is easy -- if your trim is at -6 or whatever, turn it to 0 or even +6, turn down the sub's gain control an equal amount, and see if the issue goes away.

It is also possible the songs with no bass have no bass, or they have bass at a frequency at which you are in a null in the main listening position (MLP), etc.

HTH - Don

Edit: I see Brian responded, do what he says!
LVX12 has the off/auto/on.I will try to up the avr trim gradually 'til +6 tomorrow.
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post #34781 of 39082 Old 08-10-2018, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Another setting that can help is change the AVR sub level to 0db, and turn down the plate amp volume setting by about 4 ticks. This will increase the signal strength to trigger the auto on. I know the recommendation on the forum has been -6db or as low as possible on sub channel level adjustment. But I think 0db is pretty reasonable too.
I would try this tomorrow.
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post #34782 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mavericks64 View Post
I was considering adding buttkickers to my theater but the love seat we sit on already shakes quite a bit from the nearby FV15HP and the 8" subwoofers in all the Paradigm speakers. Has anybody here with Rythmik's added buttkickers and benefitted? Please share!
I too am interested in this. Up until a few weeks ago I would scoff at the idea of adding tactile transducers to a system, since I consider myself a purist. My main speakers are Ascend Audio speakers with the RAAL ribbon tweeter, which I got mainly for their exceptional transient response (the ability to start and stop so quickly, when requested to do so by the signal). This brought my attention to my Outlaw subwoofer's bass not being able to keep up in that regard, so looking to upgrade to a Rythmik. I needed more output and wanted more extension from the subwoofer too, so there are those reasons I want to upgrade for as well.

What changed my mind about the tactile transducers was learning recently that many Dolby cinemas use them, specifically the Buttkicker brand. Many who go to a Dolby cinema really seem to enjoy the extra tactile feel to the bass, that they get when watching the movie. It makes perfect sense to do this when you think about it. It is a huge space. It doesn't matter how many subwoofers and how large they are, it will be very difficult to get a good tactile feel to the bass with just the subwoofers alone, so they augment the subwoofers with tactile transducers in each seat to get there.

I actually have the same problem, since I am in a basement with a concrete floor and my theater area is open to an enormous space (about 10,000 cubic feet). Even if I upgrade to a pair of FV25HP's I'm not sure if I will be able to pressurize the space to where I would get the tactile feel comparable to just a pair of FVX15's in a 2,000 cubic foot room with a subfloor. Due to the lower 7 foot ceiling height in my finished basement, it isn't reasonable to even go after trying to build a sub-floor either. So I'm debating if I should add some tactile transducers and just get a pair of more reasonably sized FV15HPs to get me all the bass I can hear and the tactile feel that I would have in a smaller room on a sub-floor to go with it. The only concern I have is with regard to accuracy. How do I know if the Buttkicker will keep up with the Rythmik subwoofer?
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post #34783 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 08:39 AM
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@Schrodinger23 take a look at Crowson and Earthqauke transducers. I find them superior to Buttkicker's TTs.

TTs or not, I recommend building platforms for your seating which is much cheaper and easier than floating the floor.
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post #34784 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 09:29 AM
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@Schrodinger23 , a pair of FV25’s upfront plus a FV15 directly behind your seat would do.
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post #34785 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
I would try this tomorrow.
I try to use REW and make measurement on A3-300(red) and LVX12(green). I dont know f its done right and dont know how to interpret it. And the spl and phase of LVX12
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post #34786 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
I would try this tomorrow.
I try to use REW and make measurement on A3-300 and LVX12. I dont know f its done right and dont know how to interpret it.
A couple of tips. Please resize the frequency axis by setting it to 15-300Hz, and the SPL axis to 45-105dB. Use the "All SPL" graph, and use the screen shot button at the top left of the graph. It includes a little more information. Otherwise, not bad for a first try!

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post #34787 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
A couple of tips. Please resize the frequency axis by setting it to 15-300Hz, and the SPL axis to 45-105dB. Use the "All SPL" graph, and use the screen shot button at the top left of the graph. It includes a little more information. Otherwise, not bad for a first try!
The SPL and phase chart on LVX12 why spl goes down at around 33hz. What is it mean? Thanks.
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post #34788 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Schrodinger23 take a look at Crowson and Earthqauke transducers. I find them superior to Buttkicker's TTs.
Why do you prefer the Crowson and Earthquake transducers?

Quote:
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TTs or not, I recommend building platforms for your seating which is much cheaper and easier than floating the floor.
I would love to, but I just can't lose any height with the already low ceilings.
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post #34789 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 11:52 AM
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@Schrodinger23 , a pair of FV25’s upfront plus a FV15 directly behind your seat would do.
I don't really want to spend that much money on subwoofers, when a few years down the line I'm planning to build a dedicated theater room that will only be about 2,000 cubic feet and sealed. I was thinking that getting more reasonably sized subwoofers like a pair of FV15HP's or at most a pair of FV18's would work well now and I can play around with some tactile transducers to help fill in some of the tactile feel that I am missing in such a large room.

Even in the smaller dedicated room in the future, I may opt for keeping the tactile transducers, since it will be on the concrete floor which doesn't transmit the tactile feel as well as a platform or subfloor. If I already had 8 foot ceilings, I would just opt for one of those two options, but I am at about 7 foot, heightwise so I just don't want to lose any height at all.
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post #34790 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
Why do you prefer the Crowson and Earthquake transducers?
Realism and build quality.

What is your seating going to be like?
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post #34791 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 12:23 PM
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Realism and build quality.

What is your seating going to be like?
Right now, I just have a single three seater couch and a recliner chair. In a couple years I will get home theater seating. I will have a single row of 6. Still deciding on whether or not I will get home theater seating for all 6 seats, or just a 4 seater and a couple inexpensive gliding rocking chairs for the two outside seats. Those outside seats will not be the best since they will be right in line with the left and right main speakers respectively. So they are basically overflow seating for people who don't care about the audio quality that much.

So the tactile transducer would likely be just for the 4 good seats now and in the future. In the Buttkicker line I was debating between either one Buttkicker Mini LFE per seat or a Buttkicker Advance for the 3 seater couch, running off of a Dayton Audio SA1000. Some people go way overboard and get a Buttkicker LFE for a chair or sofa, which appears to be meant for the entire subfloor. I'd also need a miniDSP to undo an EQ done to the subwoofer by Audyssey so that the tactile transducer is getting a flat signal. This seems to be another oversight by many, where they may not like it because it is too low with some frequencies and way too much on others, or worse yet it is being overdriven and clanging.

What would you suggest in the Crowson or Earthquake transducers line for my situation?
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post #34792 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 12:30 PM
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4 seats means you don't have a middle when you're by yourself
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post #34793 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 12:42 PM
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What would you suggest in the Crowson or Earthquake transducers line for my situation?
The Earthquake MQB-1 is the mini that can be installed 1 per seat or 2 per couch. If you are patient you can get these for ~50% off (shipped & sold by Amazon, their stock stays low and sells quick). These are 8Ω loads and 300W/each is plenty. They are effective ≥10Hz. I low-pass @ 40Hz.

The Crowsons are the best TTs you can buy. People who are insane about TR use both Crowson (Motion Actuators) and shakers.

http://www.crowsontech.com/go/crowso...opDefault.aspx

I am planning to build a WAF friendly platform for the den (hardwood over concrete slab) and use Crowsons underneath. I will start with two and add more if necessary.
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post #34794 of 39082 Old 08-11-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The Earthquake MQB-1 is the mini that can be installed 1 per seat or 2 per couch. If you are patient you can get these for ~50% off (shipped & sold by Amazon, their stock stays low and sells quick). These are 8Ω loads and 300W/each is plenty. They are effective ≥10Hz. I low-pass @ 40Hz.

The Crowsons are the best TTs you can buy. People who are insane about TR use both Crowson (Motion Actuators) and shakers.

http://www.crowsontech.com/go/crowso...opDefault.aspx

I am planning to build a WAF friendly platform for the den (hardwood over concrete slab) and use Crowsons underneath. I will start with two and add more if necessary.
Thanks Marc. This definitely points me in the right direction. I guess I'll have to look into Crowson.

Actually now that you mentioned platforms, I remember the link you had mentioned by David Gage where he measured four different designs versus concrete.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/5...-tactile-bass/

What he is calling the 1x4 platform with a cork underlay seems like a very nice option. Nice for me because, if I am understanding things correctly it would be a little less than 2 inches in height total and seems to give the most uniform vibrations vertically, across the frequencies measured. This is something very inexpensive to do right now and see how much I notice the effect.
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post #34795 of 39082 Old 08-12-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
I would try this tomorrow.
I try to use REW and make measurement on A3-300(red) and LVX12(green). I dont know f its done right and dont know how to interpret it. And the spl and phase of LVX12
Anybody can explain why spl on LVX12 goes down between 30-40hz during the sweep. Than
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post #34796 of 39082 Old 08-12-2018, 12:45 PM
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The SPL and phase chart on LVX12 why spl goes down at around 33hz. What is it mean? Thanks.
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
Anybody can explain why spl on LVX12 goes down between 30-40hz during the sweep. Than
It is a big dip/null due to room acoustics, sub placement, and where you sit when listening (MLP). Moving the sub, EQ, (even moving the MLP can help)... as can getting a 2nd LVX12.

I posted my single LV12R's frequency response before and after EQ (PEQ done via REW/UMIK-1, and MiniDSP 2x4 HD) as an example. I did not use any boost filters (individual or overall), but I was able to really flatten out the response. I am using the Line In input, so the sub falls off into the noise floor around 200Hz (which is why I posted 15Hz-200Hz).
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Samsung 55" MU8000
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post #34797 of 39082 Old 08-12-2018, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
The SPL and phase chart on LVX12 why spl goes down at around 33hz. What is it mean? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
Anybody can explain why spl on LVX12 goes down between 30-40hz during the sweep. Than
It is a big dip/null due to room acoustics, sub placement, and where you sit when listening (MLP). Moving the sub, EQ, (even moving the MLP can help)... as can getting a 2nd LVX12.

I posted my single LV12R's frequency response before and after EQ (PEQ done via REW/UMIK-1, and MiniDSP 2x4 HD) as an example. I did not use any boost filters (individual or overall), but I was able to really flatten out the response. I am using the Line In input, so the sub falls off into the noise floor around 200Hz (which is why I posted 15Hz-200Hz).
If i put the umik1 mic in front of sub during the sweep. Would you think i will not get those dip. Just for curious
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post #34798 of 39082 Old 08-12-2018, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
The SPL and phase chart on LVX12 why spl goes down at around 33hz. What is it mean? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by axlemay View Post
Anybody can explain why spl on LVX12 goes down between 30-40hz during the sweep. Than
It is a big dip/null due to room acoustics, sub placement, and where you sit when listening (MLP). Moving the sub, EQ, (even moving the MLP can help)... as can getting a 2nd LVX12.

I posted my single LV12R's frequency response before and after EQ (PEQ done via REW/UMIK-1, and MiniDSP 2x4 HD) as an example. I did not use any boost filters (individual or overall), but I was able to really flatten out the response. I am using the Line In input, so the sub falls off into the noise floor around 200Hz (which is why I posted 15Hz-200Hz).
If i put the umik1 mic in front of sub during the sweep. Would you think i will not get those dip. Just for curious
If you measure near the front of sub (nearfield), it should be relatively flat.

Also, I wanted to add that EQ can fix smaller dips, but that one is very wide/deep and so EQ can't fix it much, if at all.

Placement changes, even small ones could help, such as rotatating the sub in 90 degree increments or moving it a foot left/right/forward/backward.

Do you have at least 2-3 possible locations to place the sub? Where is it now?

Samsung 55" MU8000
Yamaha RX-A2070
KEF Q150 Bookshelf x 5
Rythmik L12 Sealed Subwoofer
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post #34799 of 39082 Old 08-12-2018, 07:12 PM
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This is my setup. The one in the left is lvx12 and the right is a3-300. The third image is one possible location where the end table was or the treadmill.
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post #34800 of 39082 Old 08-12-2018, 07:27 PM
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I downloaded the demo disc ultimate 1 and played all of them side by side lvx12 and a3-300. And lvx12 only shines on tron legacy in plane battle and enter the grid. On other
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