Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1185 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35521 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Let me see if I understand this. You maxed out the PEQ Gain to deal with the null. When you say Maxed Out, did you move the GAIN knob to the right or left? I say this because for most people maxing out is going clock counter wise and that way the PEQ GAIN is Negative (-12dB). Second, a null created by room mode is almost impossible to fix with EQ. The only way to fix a null is changing subwoofer position, adding additional subwoofers or changing listening position. Now, you also said you were happy with the results until you measured with REW. I have seen cases when response charts look like a flat line in a ECG Monitor but when you listen it sucks. I do listen with my ears, not with my eyes.



Two things you can try: Place the FV25HP on its side and play with it changing orientation. Second, change only orientation and see what happens. After every change, take a measurement to see if response improve.


Enrico! Thank you for the response. I move the dial counter clock wise pointing it to the +3db. I played around with trying to increase the bandwidth and reduce the lower frequencies over a larger range to help smooth it but keeping the bandwidth at a minimum and focusing only on the 63hz range proved to give the best results.

I probably looked like a crazy person to my wife today. I put a blanket under the sub so I could slide it easier and moved the sub into about 7 different locations. Each location I tried to point it in different directions and even laid it on the side in one location. I then moved the sub to the MLP and did a sub crawl. It didn’t really seem to work though bc the areas I tested seemed to give the best tactile response and sounded the best but when placing the sub there is definitely a drop in volume at MLP.

Just to give a bit more information to see if there is anything else to try I am using a single LFE in cable with my settings as follows. Limited on, bandwidth minimum frequency a click below 70. Gain +3bd, AVR/12, rumble filter on, low dampening.

Would it be beneficial to invest in something like a minidsp. Would that help at all for a single sub setup?






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post #35522 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Enrico! Thank you for the response. I move the dial counter clock wise pointing it to the +3db. I played around with trying to increase the bandwidth and reduce the lower frequencies over a larger range to help smooth it but keeping the bandwidth at a minimum and focusing only on the 63hz range proved to give the best results.

I probably looked like a crazy person to my wife today. I put a blanket under the sub so I could slide it easier and moved the sub into about 7 different locations. Each location I tried to point it in different directions and even laid it on the side in one location. I then moved the sub to the MLP and did a sub crawl. It didn’t really seem to work though bc the areas I tested seemed to give the best tactile response and sounded the best but when placing the sub there is definitely a drop in volume at MLP.

Just to give a bit more information to see if there is anything else to try I am using a single LFE in cable with my settings as follows. Limited on, bandwidth minimum frequency a click below 70. Gain +3bd, AVR/12, rumble filter on, low dampening.

Would it be beneficial to invest in something like a minidsp. Would that help at all for a single sub setup?






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Have you measured with sub plus center to see if that dip improves? I have room mode around that frequency as well but Audyssey does improve it quite a bit for me. Also take an average of three readings at MLP. One dead center and two 12 inches left and right of that.


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post #35523 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Have you measured with sub plus center to see if that dip improves? I have room mode around that frequency as well but Audyssey does improve it quite a bit for me. Also take an average of three readings at MLP. One dead center and two 12 inches left and right of that.


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I’ve been running the sweep with subs plus Left and right. Under driver I only have the java setting which doesn’t let me run multiple speakers so that could be part of it. I’ll have to dig in and find out why I can only run sweeps in 2.1 mode. I’m running my htpc which has a FTC 980ti graphics card that is hdmi out to the receiver. Maybe it has to have an audio card that’s separate?


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post #35524 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
I’ve been running the sweep with subs plus Left and right. Under driver I only have the java setting which doesn’t let me run multiple speakers so that could be part of it. I’ll have to dig in and find out why I can only run sweeps in 2.1 mode. I’m running my htpc which has a FTC 980ti graphics card that is hdmi out to the receiver. Maybe it has to have an audio card that’s separate?


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Are you following the Austin Jerry REW guide? You should use the ASIO instead of java. It’s all explained in the guide.


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post #35525 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 09:04 PM
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@superkyle , if the null was at a lower frequency i'd be more concerned but 60hz? i think you made out okay. fwiw i have all of mine crossed over at 60hz because that's right where my speakers fall on their face. a lot of people around these parts put too much weight on what graphs should or shouldn't look like (my 2 cents). i think it's a good starting point but then i make adjustments until i'm happy audibly or visually.

like enrico mentioned earlier i would try (if you haven't already) positioning the sub with it laying down and not standing up. i stood all of mine upright a while ago and i was not a fan of how it sounded. laying them down dramatically improved how it sounds/feels (for me), but a lot of that will depend on the room you're in so take that with a grain of salt.

can we see a pic of the room and where it is relative to your MLP?


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post #35526 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 09:10 PM
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I had some similar issues and I found the best for my situation was to rew all the different sub amp combinations...granted I am trying to get 2 subs to play perfect...but by going thru each sub amp possibility netted me the best answer/response. for me it was high damping, 12hz tune, rumble on, 14 freq

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post #35527 of 39430 Old 10-07-2018, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Do you in fact have a place for 2 subs? If so, how far apart are they? You will benefit most if you can place them on opposing walls. I think if you would have to place both L22s along the same wall, you would not get much of the benefit of dual subs, which is to eliminate the problems caused by room modes. In that case I would lean towards the FVX15 and put it in the single best acoustic location, ideally at a mid-wall location not too far from your seats - especially for your usage of mostly movies and games.

Other opinions?
The preferred location would be along the front wall about 11 feet away. The other possible location is along the right wall about 10 feet away.

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How big is your room? Open or sealed? On concrete or suspended floor? More music or movie?
Suspended, I would think. The room is on the second story, and the floor is tile. No rugs or carpets because we have a small dog. Mostly gaming and movies, but music will be played as well.
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post #35528 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 01:38 AM
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@enricoclaudio @Rythmik You got mail.

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post #35529 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Are you following the Austin Jerry REW guide? You should use the ASIO instead of java. It’s all explained in the guide.


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Yes that is exactly what I am using however when I select ASIO as the driver it pops up with three drop down menus. All 3 of these are blank with nothing inside them. I’ll play around and see what is going on with it today bc i would much rather have it play all speakers.


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post #35530 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
@superkyle , if the null was at a lower frequency i'd be more concerned but 60hz? i think you made out okay. fwiw i have all of mine crossed over at 60hz because that's right where my speakers fall on their face. a lot of people around these parts put too much weight on what graphs should or shouldn't look like (my 2 cents). i think it's a good starting point but then i make adjustments until i'm happy audibly or visually.



like enrico mentioned earlier i would try (if you haven't already) positioning the sub with it laying down and not standing up. i stood all of mine upright a while ago and i was not a fan of how it sounded. laying them down dramatically improved how it sounds/feels (for me), but a lot of that will depend on the room you're in so take that with a grain of salt.



can we see a pic of the room and where it is relative to your MLP?

Attached are the pictures of the room. The first picture is from the open floor plan kitchen looking into the living room. The second picture is to show the orientation of speakers with respect to MLP and the third is to show what I believe will be my enemy. A vaulted ceiling with a drop.






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post #35531 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Attached are the pictures of the room. The first picture is from the open floor plan kitchen looking into the living room. The second picture is to show the orientation of speakers with respect to MLP and the third is to show what I believe will be my enemy. A vaulted ceiling with a drop.
Some folks will probably disagree with me here, but I don't think you have room that is going to allow you to get the results you're hoping for. You're going through the steps that guys either with dedicated HTs or rooms more conducive to fine tuning results trying to match what they get. It's just not going to work. My advice: Put it back where you liked how it sounded and start enjoying your system.
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post #35532 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 06:41 AM
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As I posted in your thread, any chance of laying it down behind your MLP?

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post #35533 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy56 View Post
Some folks will probably disagree with me here, but I don't think you have room that is going to allow you to get the results you're hoping for. You're going through the steps that guys either with dedicated HTs or rooms more conducive to fine tuning results trying to match what they get. It's just not going to work. My advice: Put it back where you liked how it sounded and start enjoying your system.
You are likely correct for sure but I am also using this as a learning experience. I would like to maximize the room potential as well as get proficient in knowing what tweaks I can apply and what to even listen for. While I am happy with the way it sounds that really doesn’t hold much weight bc I have never heard a calibrated system before so have nothing to compare. This is why I have dedicated the time and money to the effort of measuring everything so I can eventually enjoy the fruits of my labors. Plus I really like tinkering lol

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As I posted in your thread, any chance of laying it down behind your MLP?

Sorry about that not sure how I missed the post. While I can lay it down behind it won’t be able to stay there. It’s hard to tell from the pictures but behind the couch is a walkway about 3-3.5’ wide. Placing the sub there would close off the walkway completely unfortunately.

I will try again this weekend laying it down again and see what I get. Last time I tried it was set on its side exactly where it is in the photo. I did have the ports closer to the corner which it might do better with the port end by the fireplace.

I keep hearing people using items such as minidsp 2x4 for sub control. Would that help at all being able to smooth it a bit better or would that be a waste for single subs?



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post #35534 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 07:30 AM
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Bummer about the walkway!


IMHO your response is pretty damn good for a single sub in an open room. I don't think you would benefit from getting a miniDSP 2x4 , as your only major issue is the null around 65hz - and as previously noted - you can't EQ your way out of that.


Try and get ASIO drivers working so you can do sweeps with C + sub and then experiment with various crossover points and adjusting the AVR's sub distance


What crossover point are you currently using?
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post #35535 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Attached are the pictures of the room. The first picture is from the open floor plan kitchen looking into the living room. The second picture is to show the orientation of speakers with respect to MLP and the third is to show what I believe will be my enemy. A vaulted ceiling with a drop.



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Your room looks very similar, I would say, almost identical to Mike's room aka @citsur86 I'm wondering if it's not the same house model/floorplan

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post #35536 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Bummer about the walkway!


IMHO you response is pretty damn good for a single sub in an open room. I don't think you would benefit from getting a miniDSP 2x4 , as your only major issue is the null around 65hz - and as previously noted - you can't EQ your way out of that.


Try and get ASIO drivers working so you can do sweeps with C + sub and then experiment with various crossover points and adjusting the AVR's sub distance


What crossover point are you currently using?


I went back through the very helpful step by step guide and believe I know why ASIO wasn’t working. I’ll get that up and running after work and take a few measurements. The one thing I didn’t notice was why center runs with sub are important. Should you run sub and left then sub and right then sub and center and average them? Currently it is set at 80hz with the LFE set to 120hz. I switched it to 60hz and swung the LFE from 80-250. Maybe I’m missing something but I didn’t notice any changes. Identical plots


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post #35537 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Your room looks very similar, I would say, almost identical to Mike's room aka @citsur86 I'm wondering if it's not the same house model/floorplan


Well this Mike character must have impeccable taste


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post #35538 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Attached are the pictures of the room. The first picture is from the open floor plan kitchen looking into the living room. The second picture is to show the orientation of speakers with respect to MLP and the third is to show what I believe will be my enemy. A vaulted ceiling with a drop.
gorgeous room, but wow that's big! i would just position the sub somewhere out of the way where it sounds best. like @jamiebosco mentioned did you try laying it down behind your couch (i'm guessing that's the MLP)?
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post #35539 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Your room looks very similar, I would say, almost identical to Mike's room aka @citsur86 I'm wondering if it's not the same house model/floorplan
Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Well this Mike character must have impeccable taste


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Haha - Not really @enricoclaudio . I'm guessing the roman style pillars and kitchen behind the living room triggered your memory of my space and in that - good memory! But the floor plan is a bit different! Pictures of my room in my sig or here!
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post #35540 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadianatlas View Post
You must be talking about this: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-a...ik-fv15hp.html I live about 2,000 miles away from Philadelphia by car. Even if the seller was willing, the shipping alone would cost too much. On top of that, I wouldn't want to buy used electronics unless I could see and test it myself.

I've been thinking about cone area, and was wondering how they are measured. Do they measure from the outside of the rubber surround, or only the paper/aluminium cone itself? I've also been having a hard time figuring out whether two L22s or one FVX15 is better. A lot of people swear by dual subwoofers, but I also know the output of a ported subwoofer is far greater than a sealed. I don't like to get stuck on a brand, but after reading up about servo subwoofers on the Rythmik website, I really want a taste of it. I don't think the options from HSU, I just think that for my tastes Rythmik offers the closest to what I'm looking for. It really is down to the L22 and FVX15.
I don't think the output is FAR greater than sealed, but it is greater at the port tune. I really like my LVX12 which replaced a Dayton SUB1200 and a Polk something 12" sub I actually went with Rythmik because it looked to me, although I have to basis for this, that it did more on fewer watts than similar sized and performing subs. For instance the LVX12 plays to 14hz or 18hz at the -2db point, with 400watts RMS, vs say the SVS PB2000 which hits 17hz with 500watts RMS. I live in an old house, and the breaker box situation is goofy as hell so I was looking for the most bang for the lowest RMS.
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post #35541 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 12:38 PM
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Photo of F12, F15, F18 subs side-by-side

I would love to see a photo of side-by-side Rythmik F12, F15, and F18 subs, hopefully with the same finish profile. Does such a photo exist? I have searched but have only found photos of either a single sub or a pair of the same model. I also checked YT, but without luck.

If a photo is out there, I would appreciate your posting a link. Thanks!
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post #35542 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Bummer about the walkway!


IMHO you response is pretty damn good for a single sub in an open room. I don't think you would benefit from getting a miniDSP 2x4 , as your only major issue is the null around 65hz - and as previously noted - you can't EQ your way out of that.


Try and get ASIO drivers working so you can do sweeps with C + sub and then experiment with various crossover points and adjusting the AVR's sub distance


What crossover point are you currently using?


Ok so I ran some more sweeps today. I ran them with Audyssey on and crossovers at 40hz for mains and 60hz for center. I ran each speaker then averaged them together. Then I did the same thing with everything at 80hz. That’s what the first picture is. Green is 80hz purple is mixed 40/60hz.

The other picture is the center channel at 60hz and then at 80hz I think purple is 60hz but can’t remember.

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post #35543 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
gorgeous room, but wow that's big! i would just position the sub somewhere out of the way where it sounds best. like @jamiebosco mentioned did you try laying it down behind your couch (i'm guessing that's the MLP)?


Thank you for the compliments. I actually built all of the furniture in that room . And while I could try that I know it wouldn’t work due to space constrains unfortunately.


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post #35544 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Ok so I ran some more sweeps today. I ran them with Audyssey on and crossovers at 40hz for mains and 60hz for center. I ran each speaker then averaged them together. Then I did the same thing with everything at 80hz. That’s what the first picture is. Green is 80hz purple is mixed 40/60hz.

The other picture is the center channel at 60hz and then at 80hz I think purple is 60hz but can’t remember.

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IMHO I would really and stick with 80hz (or over) all-round, maybe as low as 60hz if it results in a better transition between speakers+subs (or if you just REALLY prefer the sound @ 60hz or localization becomes a problem).
You bought one of the most powerful, linear, low distortion commercial subs available - I'd let it do what it's designed for - BASS!


The reason C+Subs sweeps are usually recommended in home theater/multi-use setups is that the center speaker will handle probably 80%+ of most movie soundtracks and almost all of the speech - so it's important to get a smooth transition between the Center channel and sub. I have been lucky in that improving my C+Sub crossover range always smooths out my L & R + sub crossover as well.








Read up on the SDT (sub distance tweak) in the REW guide or Google "sub distance tweak"




Also,as a sidenote, pull your Center speaker forward as far as possible. Try and get the front an inch or so past the front of the Entertainment unit
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post #35545 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 05:54 PM
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I guess I don't understand what averaging your speakers' response together achieves. Doesn't that prevent you from seeing the actual problem areas?
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post #35546 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I guess I don't understand what averaging your speakers' response together achieves. Doesn't that prevent you from seeing the actual problem areas?


It actually reflects how you will actually hear so you are not trying to fix something that does not need to be fixed.


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post #35547 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 07:34 PM
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It actually reflects how you will actually hear so you are not trying to fix something that does not need to be fixed.
But he averaged different speakers together. How often are all speakers playing the same exact material?

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post #35548 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
But he averaged different speakers together. Unless I'm missing something?

Sorry I may have misunderstood the post your referring to. I meant to say that we should average the response at MLP for whatever measurements you are taking. Not different speakers.



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post #35549 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 10:53 PM
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I don't think the output is FAR greater than sealed, but it is greater at the port tune. I really like my LVX12 which replaced a Dayton SUB1200 and a Polk something 12" sub I actually went with Rythmik because it looked to me, although I have to basis for this, that it did more on fewer watts than similar sized and performing subs. For instance the LVX12 plays to 14hz or 18hz at the -2db point, with 400watts RMS, vs say the SVS PB2000 which hits 17hz with 500watts RMS. I live in an old house, and the breaker box situation is goofy as hell so I was looking for the most bang for the lowest RMS.
Rythmik subwoofers do seem to be fairly efficient, and that is part of what draws me to them. The differences between ported and sealed subwoofers still confuses me. When I look at a chart, it looks like a good ported subwoofer stays the same loudness, then just drops off, and a sealed subwoofer slowly gets quieter below 40Hz. But then I look at the rated specs, and then see that The L22 is -3 dB @ 18Hz, while the FVX15 is -2 dB @ 17 Hz. That's really not very different in real life. Or is it?
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post #35550 of 39430 Old 10-08-2018, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadianatlas View Post
Rythmik subwoofers do seem to be fairly efficient, and that is part of what draws me to them. The differences between ported and sealed subwoofers still confuses me. When I look at a chart, it looks like a good ported subwoofer stays the same loudness, then just drops off, and a sealed subwoofer slowly gets quieter below 40Hz. But then I look at the rated specs, and then see that The L22 is -3 dB @ 18Hz, while the FVX15 is -2 dB @ 17 Hz. That's really not very different in real life. Or is it?
Indeed it is hard to convey the difference in terms of a -3dB point or by using words. A chart is much better at showing the differences. If you were to overlay the two graphs, the difference that we hear in frequency response is in the area between the two curves, keeping in mind the other differences discussed recently.

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