Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1205 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36121 of 40443 Old 11-21-2018, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Completely agree. Much easier to manage.
I agree and disagree. I would love having a G28, 2 of them would probably be perfect for me. The problem is, my basement stairs run straight into the wall, everything has to make a tight 90 degree turn. I already have 2 F18, so when I can come up with the money, I will buy another pair, and have an approximate g28 equivalent.
I almost got a competing subwoofer simply because it was 40 lbs lighter, and it was code brown getting the F18 down the stairs. They are the absolute largest I will try to bring down.

Now, that kit idea that DonH had, I might be interested in down the road, but since I already have F18, I doubt I would go to the trouble.

I think the main reason Brian and Enrico don't want to do these huge subwoofers is they would prefer to have use of their backs as they get older.
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post #36122 of 40443 Old 11-21-2018, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I agree and disagree. I would love having a G28, 2 of them would probably be perfect for me. The problem is, my basement stairs run straight into the wall, everything has to make a tight 90 degree turn. I already have 2 F18, so when I can come up with the money, I will buy another pair, and have an approximate g28 equivalent.
I almost got a competing subwoofer simply because it was 40 lbs lighter, and it was code brown getting the F18 down the stairs. They are the absolute largest I will try to bring down.

Now, that kit idea that DonH had, I might be interested in down the road, but since I already have F18, I doubt I would go to the trouble.

I think the main reason Brian and Enrico don't want to do these huge subwoofers is they would prefer to have use of their backs as they get older.
LMFAO, code brown!
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post #36123 of 40443 Old 11-21-2018, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I agree and disagree. I would love having a G28, 2 of them would probably be perfect for me. The problem is, my basement stairs run straight into the wall, everything has to make a tight 90 degree turn. I already have 2 F18, so when I can come up with the money, I will buy another pair, and have an approximate g28 equivalent.
I almost got a competing subwoofer simply because it was 40 lbs lighter, and it was code brown getting the F18 down the stairs. They are the absolute largest I will try to bring down.

Now, that kit idea that DonH had, I might be interested in down the road, but since I already have F18, I doubt I would go to the trouble.

I think the main reason Brian and Enrico don't want to do these huge subwoofers is they would prefer to have use of their backs as they get older.
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LMFAO, code brown!
This absolutely killed me
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post #36124 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 01:43 AM
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I vote for a FV28 paper drivers . I agree with @serith that if Brian makes it, it will sell. I am sure @imureh will upgrade . It might not sell as many as the smaller subs but same can be said for the other companies.
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post #36125 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 06:24 AM
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it makes me roll my eyes when people go on at length about how heavy their subwoofers are considering how few actually are.
Yes but you have to realize, the average adult male in todays society is very weak. I'd venture to say over 90% of grown men would struggle to lift 200 lbs off the ground with ideal conditions, let alone a large awkward subwoofer.
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post #36126 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 07:58 AM
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Yes but you have to realize, the average adult male in todays society is very weak. I'd venture to say over 90% of grown men would struggle to lift 200 lbs off the ground with ideal conditions, let alone a large awkward subwoofer.
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post #36127 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
This
I am wondering about room placement options for dual opposed subs like the G25HP. I have seen several pictures of G25HP setups like the one attached to the quoted post where it looks like the sub is close to the wall with one of the two drivers pointed directly at the wall. Is the in-room performance degraded at all with this type of placement close to a wall? Any recommendations for minimum distance from a wall? Would corner placement work well for a G25HP?
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post #36128 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rkj View Post
I am wondering about room placement options for dual opposed subs like the G25HP. I have seen several pictures of G25HP setups like the one attached to the quoted post where it looks like the sub is close to the wall with one of the two drivers pointed directly at the wall. Is the in-room performance degraded at all with this type of placement close to a wall? Any recommendations for minimum distance from a wall? Would corner placement work well for a G25HP?
It depends on the room.

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post #36129 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rkj View Post
I am wondering about room placement options for dual opposed subs like the G25HP. I have seen several pictures of G25HP setups like the one attached to the quoted post where it looks like the sub is close to the wall with one of the two drivers pointed directly at the wall. Is the in-room performance degraded at all with this type of placement close to a wall? Any recommendations for minimum distance from a wall? Would corner placement work well for a G25HP?


I have heard that as little as 6 inches from wall works fine. You can also place them in corner at an angle with drivers facing the two walls. It would require experimenting to see what sounds best in your room as there is no one rule


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post #36130 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 10:21 AM
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all my years with velodyne sealed subs I always had them alongside the walls midway...had velodynes over 15 yrs...thats not to say a better place didnt exist using subwoofer crawl method.

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post #36131 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 10:35 AM
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We have maybe 12 customers with G25HPs already and some of them run the G25HP with one driver facing to the back wall like Greg and Richard. I have another customer who has the G25HP in a corner at 45 degrees angle with the amp facing to the corner. A couple of customers have their G25HPs in the center between speakers with the drivers facing sideways. As you can see in @ianrozzano PHOTO, he has the G25HP on the rack. All of them have reported great sound. So looks like you have a lot of placement options with the G25HP.

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post #36132 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 01:34 PM
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So, for those of us that are space/wife constrained the on size: Dual opposed 12s are coming right? 😁

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post #36133 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 02:30 PM
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So, for those of us that are space/wife constrained the on size: Dual opposed 12s are coming right? 😁
I wonder how that would compare to the L22? Speaking of which...

I still don't have a subwoofer yet (Too many things going on lately), but even with the few different subwoofer sales from other manufacturers going on, the L22 and FVX15 appeal to me the most. Recently, I've read a few posts, and it seems to me that they said to stay away from sealed subwoofers if your listening area isn't enclosed. I don't imagine duals would do much to help that either.
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post #36134 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 02:35 PM
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So, for those of us that are space/wife constrained the on size: Dual opposed 12s are coming right? 😁
Don't think so. We are thinking more of F22. L22 with DS1200 drivers.
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post #36135 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadianatlas View Post
I wonder how that would compare to the L22? Speaking of which...



I still don't have a subwoofer yet (Too many things going on lately), but even with the few different subwoofer sales from other manufacturers going on, the L22 and FVX15 appeal to me the most. Recently, I've read a few posts, and it seems to me that they said to stay away from sealed subwoofers if your listening area isn't enclosed. I don't imagine duals would do much to help that either.


Sealed subs sound amazing in an open room as well, you just might need a few more of them to achieve the same pressurization. They sound a bit smoother however in my opinion


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post #36136 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 08:08 PM
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Can L12 fill my 3300 cu.ft room

And does LV12R has any port noise issues and are Rythmik's reliable and last for years?
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post #36137 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 08:10 PM
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Sealed subs sound amazing in an open room as well, you just might need a few more of them to achieve the same pressurization. They sound a bit smoother however in my opinion.
Well then, I have a question for those who may be knowledgeable. How many L22s would it take to match a single FVX15?
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post #36138 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 09:09 PM
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Two.
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post #36139 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 09:23 PM
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Two.
same principle as needing two 15's to equal the output of a single 18, etc.


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post #36140 of 40443 Old 11-22-2018, 10:38 PM
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same principle as needing two 15's to equal the output of a single 18, etc.
Due to my knowledge on subs, how does that technically work? How does two 15's equal a single 18? For example, if we are comparing a FV18 to a FV25HP. They don't perform equally. Is it simply because the FV25HP has more wattage? If the FV18 had 1800 watts RMS, would they equal same output measures like on data-bass? Sorry if this is a dumb question
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post #36141 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by xTheRelevant View Post
Due to my knowledge on subs, how does that technically work? How does two 15's equal a single 18? For example, if we are comparing a FV18 to a FV25HP. They don't perform equally. Is it simply because the FV25HP has more wattage? If the FV18 had 1800 watts RMS, would they equal same output measures like on data-bass? Sorry if this is a dumb question
More wattage, larger cabinet and more cone area (2x15"s has more surface area than 1x18") all add up to why the FV25hp has more output than the FV18

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post #36142 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeshmahrn
Can L12 fill my 3300 cu.ft room ...
Depends on your expectations. My HT space is ~3,400 cu.ft. and a single, 300W sealed sub wouldn't do it for me. I'd be looking at a pair of powerful 12" ported subs at a bare minimum.
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post #36143 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by xTheRelevant View Post
Due to my knowledge on subs, how does that technically work? How does two 15's equal a single 18? For example, if we are comparing a FV18 to a FV25HP. They don't perform equally. Is it simply because the FV25HP has more wattage? If the FV18 had 1800 watts RMS, would they equal same output measures like on data-bass? Sorry if this is a dumb question
The simple version of this answer is that output depends on how much displacement the subwoofer has. This is determined by the diameter of the cone, and how far it can move in and out. If two 15" drivers can displace more air than a single 18, then the pair of 15's will have more output than the single 18. However, one very large displacement 18(i.e. one with a massive amount of excursion capability), can produce more output than a pair of 15's that do not have a lot of excursion capability. Now, design parameters such as cabinet size, power, driver efficiency etc also impact how much output can be achieved. But the simple answer is that it just comes down to displacement, primarily in the lower frequencies. In the upper bass region, above say 50-60Hz, output is primarily determined by the efficiency of the driver and the amount of power available(as well as how much power the driver can handle of course).

When it comes to efficiency, for example, you have to double power to add 3 dB of output. This assumes that the system can handle the power increase. So lets consider two drivers. Driver A is 90 dB efficient, and driver B is 99 dB efficient. To get driver A to play as loud as driver B, we need to have 8x more power. Double power to get a 3 dB increase to 93 dB, another doubling(now 4x) to get to 96, and another doubling(8x) to get to the 99 db of the more efficient driver. So 500 watts into driver B would require 4,000 watts into driver A to get the same SPL. The problem is that you can't just infinitely increase power. First, amps with that much power get more and more expensive, and second, drivers just can't handle that much power.

This is also why comparing subs based on how many watts they advertise is almost meaningless.
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post #36144 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 06:09 AM
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The simple version of this answer is that output depends on how much displacement the subwoofer has. This is determined by the diameter of the cone, and how far it can move in and out. If two 15" drivers can displace more air than a single 18, then the pair of 15's will have more output than the single 18. However, one very large displacement 18(i.e. one with a massive amount of excursion capability), can produce more output than a pair of 15's that do not have a lot of excursion capability. Now, design parameters such as cabinet size, power, driver efficiency etc also impact how much output can be achieved. But the simple answer is that it just comes down to displacement, primarily in the lower frequencies. In the upper bass region, above say 50-60Hz, output is primarily determined by the efficiency of the driver and the amount of power available(as well as how much power the driver can handle of course).

When it comes to efficiency, for example, you have to double power to add 3 dB of output. This assumes that the system can handle the power increase. So lets consider two drivers. Driver A is 90 dB efficient, and driver B is 99 dB efficient. To get driver A to play as loud as driver B, we need to have 8x more power. Double power to get a 3 dB increase to 93 dB, another doubling(now 4x) to get to 96, and another doubling(8x) to get to the 99 db of the more efficient driver. So 500 watts into driver B would require 4,000 watts into driver A to get the same SPL. The problem is that you can't just infinitely increase power. First, amps with that much power get more and more expensive, and second, drivers just can't handle that much power.

This is also why comparing subs based on how many watts they advertise is almost meaningless.
Exactly. You have to compare aples to apples. The Seaton F2 slave I picked up from Madhu (dual 15s) actually outperforms the Seaton F-18+ (Single 18) by about +2 dB from 40-70Hz, and converges down to 25Hz before room gain takes over. Different drivers/different design, same manufacturer same power (1400 watts) yet different output.

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post #36145 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 08:13 AM
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rumble filter

I have f18 sub, can you damage the sub when playing it loud with the rumble filter off? Also what is the best freq and damping setting for watching movies? right now I have it set to 12 mid.
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post #36146 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 11:58 AM
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I was posed a question during Thanksgiving festivities from my cousin and his wife that I didn't have an answer for:

Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12 @ $549.00 (Sale) or Rythmik F12 in white @ $1099.00 for a room that is 11' wide X 14' long with 7.5 foot ceilings (1200 CuF) and one 4' wide opening that is diagonally across one corner from floor to ceiling that opens to the middle of the house.

The F12 is considered because it is available in white to match their woodwork and decorative panels on the wall and there is one spot along a side wall that is about 18 inches wide where it would fit perfectly and blend in and would not protrude out into the room much at all.

The Ultra-X12 is considered because there is a spot in the rear corner next to their seating where it could serve double duty as an end table, but more importantly to her is that because there are no visible drivers and ports, they can wrap it with a fabric to match their furniture and put a wood top on it. it is a perfect height which falls a couple of inches shy of the top of the arm wrest.

They are using a Marantz receiver with NHT speakers all around and have never had a subwoofer. Action movies are their love and they purchase the disc in which they have a closet full and the kicker is that they feel the volume at -25 is the perfect level for their room. I sat in there yesterday and I agree that -25 is loud in that room.

The only measurement data that I could find for the X12 is here:
https://hometheaterreview.com/outlaw...viewed/?page=2

I can't find any for the F12 except frequency graphs on the Rhythmik website.

So the question is, at -25 volume level, would the ported X12 bring a better experience to action movies or would the sealed F12, or would there be no difference at all?
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post #36147 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 01:04 PM
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Can L12 fill my 3300 cu.ft room

And does LV12R has any port noise issues and are Rythmik's reliable and last for years?
You will likely be able to hear the L12 in a room that size, but it certainly won't fill it. That's simply too much space for a small, single 12" subwoofer to overcome.

Given the right conditions all ported subwoofers will make noise, but typically it only happens when you push things up to - or over - the design limits. Rythmik subs have proven to be very reliable, and in the odd case were something does go wrong the manufacturer is very responsive.
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post #36148 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
I was posed a question during Thanksgiving festivities from my cousin and his wife that I didn't have an answer for:

Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12 @ $549.00 (Sale) or Rythmik F12 in white @ $1099.00 for a room that is 11' wide X 14' long with 7.5 foot ceilings (1200 CuF) and one 4' wide opening that is diagonally across one corner from floor to ceiling that opens to the middle of the house.

The F12 is considered because it is available in white to match their woodwork and decorative panels on the wall and there is one spot along a side wall that is about 18 inches wide where it would fit perfectly and blend in and would not protrude out into the room much at all.

The Ultra-X12 is considered because there is a spot in the rear corner next to their seating where it could serve double duty as an end table, but more importantly to her is that because there are no visible drivers and ports, they can wrap it with a fabric to match their furniture and put a wood top on it. it is a perfect height which falls a couple of inches shy of the top of the arm wrest.

They are using a Marantz receiver with NHT speakers all around and have never had a subwoofer. Action movies are their love and they purchase the disc in which they have a closet full and the kicker is that they feel the volume at -25 is the perfect level for their room. I sat in there yesterday and I agree that -25 is loud in that room.

The only measurement data that I could find for the X12 is here:
https://hometheaterreview.com/outlaw...viewed/?page=2

I can't find any for the F12 except frequency graphs on the Rhythmik website.

So the question is, at -25 volume level, would the ported X12 bring a better experience to action movies or would the sealed F12, or would there be no difference at all?
Well this is an interesting comparison.

Looking at the Outlaw, I would definitely use it in one port mode for the 17Hz extension, especially as they do not need max output. Two ports gives 25Hz and greater output = not needed, and then it doesn't really compare to the F12 which will do 14Hz +/- 2dB.

The Outlaw is certainly more cost effective, but doesn't have Direct Servo. Add being ported vs sealed, and they will sound very different. I'm not sure which one has greater output.

Even better, IMO, is if $1100 is really in their budget, and it seems to be, would be a Rythmik FVX15. Waay more bang for the buck, and since it has a grill, I don't see it being any different in terms of seeing the drivers or the ports or it being used as a table. And, it would certainly help avoid upgrade-itis.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
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post #36149 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
I was posed a question during Thanksgiving festivities from my cousin and his wife that I didn't have an answer for:

Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12 @ $549.00 (Sale) or Rythmik F12 in white @ $1099.00 for a room that is 11' wide X 14' long with 7.5 foot ceilings (1200 CuF) and one 4' wide opening that is diagonally across one corner from floor to ceiling that opens to the middle of the house.

The F12 is considered because it is available in white to match their woodwork and decorative panels on the wall and there is one spot along a side wall that is about 18 inches wide where it would fit perfectly and blend in and would not protrude out into the room much at all.

The Ultra-X12 is considered because there is a spot in the rear corner next to their seating where it could serve double duty as an end table, but more importantly to her is that because there are no visible drivers and ports, they can wrap it with a fabric to match their furniture and put a wood top on it. it is a perfect height which falls a couple of inches shy of the top of the arm wrest.

They are using a Marantz receiver with NHT speakers all around and have never had a subwoofer. Action movies are their love and they purchase the disc in which they have a closet full and the kicker is that they feel the volume at -25 is the perfect level for their room. I sat in there yesterday and I agree that -25 is loud in that room.

The only measurement data that I could find for the X12 is here:
https://hometheaterreview.com/outlaw...viewed/?page=2

I can't find any for the F12 except frequency graphs on the Rhythmik website.

So the question is, at -25 volume level, would the ported X12 bring a better experience to action movies or would the sealed F12, or would there be no difference at all?

If you have a comparable or smaller sub you could bring over, I'd try one in each location before deciding. It seems the choices are linked to a specific location for each. If one spot is turns out to be much better than the other, your choice is made.

When I bought my last pair of subs, I had specific locations in mind for each; unfortunately the position for one was mid-wall and I could not hear it in my seating position no matter what I did, so I ended up relocating them both.
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post #36150 of 40443 Old 11-23-2018, 06:31 PM
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Thanks both of you for the input. She is particular about the looks in this room as they have just put in new floors, painted every surface and all new furniture. They came across the F12 because they were searching for a white subwoofer to blend into the woodwork which popped up on the Rythmik site and they are on the Outlaw email list because they purchased a 2150 receiver from them several years ago so they received the holiday sales flyer bringing attention to the X12.

The $1000 for the F12 didn't seem to bother them but I do know that she does not want the subwoofer they choose to be higher than the armrest of their chair should they use it as an end table. If I remember correctly, the top of the armrest is around 22 or 23 inches and the X12 is 21" high which will work.

What they specifically asked me was about the movie experience between the two and listening at volume levels in the -25 to -30 range and whether or one of those two would bring a better experience at those levels than the other. She is an interior designer so I am quite sure she will do something to the unit they choose, either paint it or wrap in in fabric which is her "MO" so to say.
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