Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1240 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37171 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
@pink soda said he ‘think’ due to decay time. The bottom line is he heard the difference like many of us and want to try Rythmik sub.

I can tell you that Rythmik subs beside sound cleanest, tightest, its strength is the ability to play note separation better than ANY subs I have heard including many JTR subs. The JTR subs that I have heard kind of blend or smear the notes together. @toddct noticed the note separation on the FV25 playing the EoT intro when comparing his 2400ULF to the FV25 and was the one that told me about it. I hate to dragg Todd in to these situations and make him feel uncomfortable as he does own and love his 2400ulf’s. The ability to play notes separation (not easy as one might think) as intended by the mixer whether it is music or movie is one of many reasons people labeling Rythmik subs as ‘Accurate’, ‘Musical’ or ‘Audiophile’ subs. IMO, this is no doubt attributed from Brian’s patent Servo design. My 2 cents on this matter


I do kind of feel like a referee sometimes! I just hope I'm not calling any plays like the ref at the Saint's game!

I've already PM'd pink soda and gave him some additional thoughts for what it's worth.

But besides that, I just want to say one thing........this isn't a zero sum game (did I say that right?, I did, I googled that &h!t), meaning that just because I (or anyone else) thinks the FV25 does a better job at sound separation does not mean I think the 2400 isn't good with music. One doesn't have to "lose" in order for the other to "win". On the contrary, I happen to think the 2400 is very good with music and that's my opinion but there are differences and one has to decide what their priorities are so that part is debatable. I do have to back up chucky7 in that I wouldn't necessarily compare or put a lot of weight into waterfall graphs of 2 different subs in 2 different rooms, with that said, pink soda apparently heard something different. Assuming everything was "optimized" then he could be chasing some cleaner bass.

JTR and Rythmik are at the top of their game in my book!

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post #37172 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Chucky, you didn't read the plot right. You are comparing a sub with 20hz extension and larger roll-off to a 14-15hz extension with slow roll-off and yet both of them seem to decay to the same level at the lower end. That means the latter actually decays faster. The decay time for a 20hz signal is simply twice as fast as a 10hz signal. There is no dispute for that. So let us look at the extreme case of 10hz. One way to look at it is how much decay the sub has over time. You can see JTR118HT decay about 1.6 vertical divisions (each division is 5db) to 240ms line. On the other hand FV18 decays 2.8 division and FV25 decays 2.5 division to the same 240ms line. Furthermore, I believe the FV18 and FV25 measurement are based on MED damping and rumble filter ON. Both models have high damping that decays even faster.

BTW, Josh does not do curve smoothing. Therefore the plots do show a bit of measurement noise that varies from a day to next. FV18 and FV25 were measured on the same day. So the noise is always identical from the two plots.
Which sub has 20Hz extension?

Let's see this again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pink soda View Post
On the system with the F12s, the decay times were under 120 ms at 25 hz and above.
We don't know the scale of the F12s graph, not to mention it is simply wrong to conclude that sub A is better than sub B because the former decays faster in room X than the latter does in room Y. Even if the output, range and scale were the same for both waterfall graphs, it just means room X is more sterile than room Y.

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Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 02-25-2019 at 10:47 AM.
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post #37173 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 10:09 AM
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^^ Dude, he said 'I think' whether that's right or not, who cares. The bottom line is the bolded I quote below. No need to discuss further really, seriously


Quote:
Originally Posted by pink soda View Post
I heard a system (not my own) which swapped a JTR Captivator 1400 for a pair of F12s and I was impressed at how crisp and clear the bass was for music with the F12s (it was a downgrade for HT of course). I think the difference I heard was due to faster decay times (see this waterfall for decay times on my current system with the JTRs https://i.imgur.com/6drYUOR.png). On the system with the F12s, the decay times were under 120 ms at 25 hz and above.
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post #37174 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Looks like the gain knob is for the PEQ, so the volume control is for the subwoofer.



Total Newbie here..

Not intending to hijack this ..can some one point me to the XLR cable that needs to be used to connect Marantz 7012 to FV18 ? My AVR does not have any XLR inputs ,.
As of now I have connected RCA cable from AVR Subwoofer to LINE IN L . and it works no problem.



Also, when do we use LFE IN R and LINE IN R ? and in what circumstances?

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post #37175 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by toddct View Post

I do kind of feel like a referee sometimes! I just hope I'm not calling any plays like the ref at the Saint's game!
Hahaha. Luckily I didn't bet on that game The Saints did get robbed there
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post #37176 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Hahaha. Luckily I didn't bet on that game The Saints did get robbed there
For sure! Probably the worst non-call I have ever seen.

Todd

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post #37177 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 01:47 PM
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I'm not sure if this is a common thing, but does anyone know of any "aftermarket" power cables that are available for the E15HP2? I only seen them with 3 prongs, instead of the 2 prong that Rythmik uses. I'd like ones that are more flexible, and shorter in length. Also, since the power cable is right angle, the subwoofer on the left of my TV stand has to do a 180* to reach my surge protector.
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post #37178 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Kirkobangz View Post
I'm not sure if this is a common thing, but does anyone know of any "aftermarket" power cables that are available for the E15HP2? I only seen them with 3 prongs, instead of the 2 prong that Rythmik uses. I'd like ones that are more flexible, and shorter in length. Also, since the power cable is right angle, the subwoofer on the left of my TV stand has to do a 180* to reach my surge protector.
You can use a three prong power cable as the ground will be lifted anyways as there is no ground prong on the subwoofer socket.

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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
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post #37179 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesmeriser16 View Post
Total Newbie here..

Not intending to hijack this ..can some one point me to the XLR cable that needs to be used to connect Marantz 7012 to FV18 ? My AVR does not have any XLR inputs ,.
As of now I have connected RCA cable from AVR Subwoofer to LINE IN L . and it works no problem.



Also, when do we use LFE IN R and LINE IN R ? and in what circumstances?
The 7012 does not have any XLR outputs that I can see so just stick with RCA since it is working. No advantage to you to run XLR.

Line in goes through the crossover and phase adjust circuitry (among other things); LFE does not. If you are using Audyssey just use the LFE in and call it a day.
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post #37180 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The 7012 does not have any XLR outputs that I can see so just stick with RCA since it is working. No advantage to you to run XLR.

Line in goes through the crossover and phase adjust circuitry (among other things); LFE does not. If you are using Audyssey just use the LFE in and call it a day.
It does need to be said that the two inputs have a very different bandwidth profile - the end result being a faster upper roll-off when using Line-In. This is an advantage with my F12s, making them sound cleaner.

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post #37181 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
It does need to be said that the two inputs have a very different bandwidth profile - the end result being a faster upper roll-off when using Line-In. This is an advantage with my F12s, making them sound cleaner.
I figured given the questions that was academic. And how much cleaner is very much system-dependent. That said, my processor has a 24 dB/oct filter choice, more than the standard 12 dB/oct, and I do use that.

Bottom line: If the OP is happy with the sound now, there's no reason to change to XLRs.
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post #37182 of 39068 Old 02-25-2019, 05:31 PM
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When listing the differences, I think that is an important one. Knowing that there are differences, the user should experiment to see which one sounds better.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
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post #37183 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Which sub has 20Hz extension?

Not the F12. In case you still don't know our products. F12 is -7db at 10hz if the customer does not engage rumble filter. Let us all be polite to each other.
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post #37184 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Not the F12. In case you still don't know our products. F12 is -7db at 10hz if the customer does not engage rumble filter. Let us all be polite to each other.
Ummm, let's look at what you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Chucky, you didn't read the plot right. You are comparing a sub with 20hz extension and larger roll-off to a 14-15hz extension...
Therefore, I asked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Which sub has 20Hz extension?
because I was scratching my head ...

I know a thing or two about some popular ID subs. I would say, I know more than I should considering I am not in the audio business...

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Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 02-26-2019 at 01:34 AM.
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post #37185 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 05:44 AM
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^^

You include the 3 waterfall plots. So I assume you were reading and comparing those 3 waterfalls. 118HT rolls off at 20hz.

BTW, science is relative to what we know (knowledge). Just thousand years ago, people think earth were flat and mercury were the medicine to live forever. They also followed science, otherwise people won't be able to build pyramids.


There are reasons why Rythmik subs sound cleaner. I can explain it in a few sentence. But that would give away our trade secrets which no one in the right mind will do. But most importantly if customers do not hear our subs as cleaner, what good does my explanation do? In science, you propose a theory or a model, and then you find objective new evidences to corroborate it. This particular thread is also for customers to come in and share what they hear. There is no reason to spoil that.
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post #37186 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 06:23 AM
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I need a detailed explanation on how the servo works

I'm have a discussion on another board and this dude is convinced that servos limit frequency response. I know this is not true. Can some explain in more deltail than what is on Rythmiks site as to how it works .

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post #37187 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
I'm have a discussion on another board and this dude is convinced that servos limit frequency response. I know this is not true. Can some explain in more deltail than what is on Rythmiks site as to how it works .
You can Google the patent.

A servo is a feedback circuit and any feedback circuit limits frequency response. The feedback in an amplifier limits its frequency response. It's akin to saying air limits the speed of light so it travels slower than in a vacuum. It does not matter in this application; the light still gets to my eyes fast enough when I flip on the switch, and the sub has more than enough bandwidth to do its job (it is comparable to most other subs for that matter). If you look at the curves on the Rythmik site you (and he) will see it is limited at well above the target frequency range for the subwoofer, just like for any other subwoofer.

Sometimes arguing with one who has insufficient knowledge and yet "knows" all he needs to know is just not worth the effort. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink, and despite the urge drowning it is illegal.
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post #37188 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
You can Google the patent.

A servo is a feedback circuit and any feedback circuit limits frequency response. The feedback in an amplifier limits its frequency response. It's akin to saying air limits the speed of light so it travels slower than in a vacuum. It does not matter in this application; the light still gets to my eyes fast enough when I flip on the switch, and the sub has more than enough bandwidth to do its job (it is comparable to most other subs for that matter). If you look at the curves on the Rythmik site you (and he) will see it is limited at well above the target frequency range for the subwoofer, just like for any other subwoofer.

Sometimes arguing with one who has insufficient knowledge and yet "knows" all he needs to know is just not worth the effort. You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink, and despite the urge drowning it is illegal.

The feed back is a siganl produced by an accelerometer and not an amplifier. I think your over simplifying this but hey, I could be wrong.

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post #37189 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
The feed back is a siganl produced by an accelerometer and not an amplifier. I think your over simplifying this but hey, I could be wrong.
The Rythmiks don’t use an accelerometer. Not sure if you implying that they do?
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post #37190 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The 7012 does not have any XLR outputs that I can see so just stick with RCA since it is working. No advantage to you to run XLR.

Line in goes through the crossover and phase adjust circuitry (among other things); LFE does not. If you are using Audyssey just use the LFE in and call it a day.

[URL="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/members/7856356-soulburner.html"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner[/URL
It does need to be said that the two inputs have a very different bandwidth profile - the end result being a faster upper roll-off when using Line-In. This is an advantage with my F12s, making them sound cleaner.

[URL="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/members/8215944-donh50.html"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50[/URL
I figured given the questions that was academic. And how much cleaner is very much system-dependent. That said, my processor has a 24 dB/oct filter choice, more than the standard 12 dB/oct, and I do use that.

Bottom line: If the OP is happy with the sound now, there's no reason to change to XLRs.


[URL="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/members/7856356-soulburner.html"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner[/URL
When listing the differences, I think that is an important one. Knowing that there are differences, the user should experiment to see which one sounds better.

@Soulburner , @DonH50



Thank you for your inputs.

As of now I received the Sierra towers and the fv18 last week.
I have



I am still experimenting with the Audyssey and placement of sub. I am not completely satisfied with the SQ. I am not hearing a sound stage I was hoping for. Are there any setup literature that I can read other than the ones I see from AVR manual etc?


Kris

-- kris

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post #37191 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post
The feed back is a siganl produced by an accelerometer and not an amplifier. I think your over simplifying this but hey, I could be wrong.
Rythmik uses a voice coil sensor not an accelerometer to sense to cone movement. Velodyne uses an accelerometer last I looked (years ago). My first DIY sub also used a voice coil for sensing; it offers some advantages over accelerometer-based sensors.

Regardless of the sensor the overall concept of feedback (servo) control is the same. And it is the overall loop bandwidth and amplifier's stability that ultimately matters.

In any event you are welcome to complicate it as much as you wish; I tend to stay simple given the unknown technical level of the audience. Particularly when the question is "what is a servo"...

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post #37192 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesmeriser16 View Post
I am still experimenting with the Audyssey and placement of sub. I am not completely satisfied with the SQ. I am not hearing a sound stage I was hoping for. Are there any setup literature that I can read other than the ones I see from AVR manual etc?

Kris
Not really, or rather lots but it would likely be confusing and conflicting. What exactly do you mean by "sound stage" with respect to the subwoofer? What I think of as "sound stage" is heavily dependent upon where the speakers are placed relative to room boundaries and the listening position, their angle (toe-in), and room treatment (or lack of -- the acoustical properties of the room). The subwoofer plays little in my perception of the sound stage since the wavelengths are long and signals are low so I tend to "feel" rather than "hear" them. The overall sound is better when the subs are dialed in and the mains don't have to handle all the bass, but sub placement is important. Search for "subwoofer crawl) and check out the paper by Todd Welti on the Harman site about subwoofer placement in the room.

For the main speakers, assuming the room is fixed, sliding them back and forth a little and/or changing their angle slightly can make a significant change in the perceived image and sound stage.

You could also try without Audyssey; some rooms can fool it, and some people prefer to not correct above the bass region (Schroeder frequency).

HTH - Don
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post #37193 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 12:15 PM
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Here is a fairly decent overview with general guidelines to setting up your speakers. As always, your room controls much of this, as well as the final sonic results. https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-p...ers-perfectly/
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Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR, Center: Emotiva Airmotiv C2; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #37194 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Rythmik uses a voice coil sensor not an accelerometer to sense to cone movement. Velodyne uses an accelerometer last I looked (years ago). My first DIY sub also used a voice coil for sensing; it offers some advantages over accelerometer-based sensors.

My bad. The Velodyne was used in the other forum and I mixed the two up. I meant to post sensing coil.


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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Regardless of the sensor the overall concept of feedback (servo) control is the same. And it is the overall loop bandwidth and amplifier's stability that ultimately matters.
So if the servo does limit frequency response, does it do it on both ends of the bass spectrum? I thought the sensing coil generated feedback based on the amplitude of the signal the driver is producing rather than its frequency. That's where I'm getting stuck. If what you say is true, then the LV12-R that I own is capable of 19Hz just from the driver/cabinet alone and that the servo reduces the amount of distortion of the output?



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post #37195 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pink soda View Post
I was impressed at how crisp and clear the bass was for music with the F12s (it was a downgrade for HT of course). I think the difference I heard was due to faster decay times (see this waterfall for decay times on my current system with the JTRs https://i.imgur.com/6drYUOR.png). On the system with the F12s, the decay times were under 120 ms at 25 hz and above.
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Chucky, you didn't read the plot right. You are comparing a sub with 20hz extension and larger roll-off to a 14-15hz extension with slow roll-off and yet both of them seem to decay to the same level at the lower end. That means the latter actually decays faster. The decay time for a 20 hz signal is simply twice as fast as a 10 hz signal. There is no dispute for that. So let us look at the extreme case of 10hz...


REW watergraph's time range is defaulted at 300ms. IIRC, the REW guide recommends setting it to 450ms and higher for indoor measurements. It also recommends not paying too much attention to ringings under 40Hz because they are very difficult to correct.

Would you like to comment on the meaningfulness of comparing waterfall graph of sub A in one room with that of sub B in another?

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 02-26-2019 at 01:18 PM.
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post #37196 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mesmeriser16 View Post
I am still experimenting with the Audyssey and placement of sub. I am not completely satisfied with the SQ. I am not hearing a sound stage I was hoping for. Are there any setup literature that I can read other than the ones I see from AVR manual etc?
Here's a few:
Setting Up Your Home Theater Audio 101
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ

After you get through those, this one is more in-depth but probably the best guide on AVS;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

And after that, if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole;
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
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post #37197 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 02:30 PM
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in my large open room I can very easily adjust ring of my subs to nothing or fully bloated...maybe its a lot harder in closed rooms? if I eliminate most ringing it sure sounds clean but kinda thin. I need some ringing, maybe out to 300ms is about where I like my setup.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #37198 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
in my large open room I can very easily adjust ring of my subs to nothing or fully bloated...maybe its a lot harder in closed rooms? if I eliminate most ringing it sure sounds clean but kinda thin. I need some ringing, maybe out to 300ms is about where I like my setup.
You have some 55Hz and 110Hz hum in the second graph. It could be ground loop hum, the fridge compressor, ceiling fan or even the laptop you used for measurements...
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Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

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post #37199 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 03:33 PM
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Has anyone ever heard a G25HP and an FV25HP or compared the two? Any idea on what the output difference from say 10hz-100hz? They both have the same amps and drivers, the only difference is the port, correct? Would there be a noticeable sound quality difference? I know at 20hz the FV25HP has 5-6db advantage, does the G25hp ever exceed the FV25hp in the upper frequencies? Anyone in OC or LA have an FV25hp? I am assuming that the FV25hp has the amp on the back which would make it pretty hard to get to the settings to switch, if one were so inclined to do frequently.

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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik F18SEs - SB13 Ultra
Speakers: Martin Logan Expressions - Martin Logan ESL-C - SVS Ultra Surrounds - KEF LS50W
Audio:McIntosh C2600 Pre - Marantz SR-8012 -Dual McIntosh 601's- McIntosh MT5 - McIntosh MP100 - Oppo UDP-205 - Panamax M5300PMx2 - Apple TV 4k - BlueSound Node 2
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post #37200 of 39068 Old 02-26-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muscles View Post
Has anyone ever heard a G25HP and an FV25HP or compared the two? Any idea on what the output difference from say 10hz-100hz? They both have the same amps and drivers, the only difference is the port, correct? Would there be a noticeable sound quality difference? I know at 20hz the FV25HP has 5-6db advantage, does the G25hp ever exceed the FV25hp in the upper frequencies? Anyone in OC or LA have an FV25hp? I am assuming that the FV25hp has the amp on the back which would make it pretty hard to get to the settings to switch, if one were so inclined to do frequently.

Greg
FV25HP and G25HP output comparison:

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
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f12g subwoofer , integra dtc 9.8 , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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