Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1247 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37381 of 39172 Old 03-09-2019, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
So in theory, 90hz is an ideal crossover with mains that reach down to 45hz +-3db (like my B&W 702 S2)?

This was interesting to try, but didn’t go over well: I just tried setting my crossover to 80hz (vs the 60hz I normally use), and I found the upper bass became really localized, and too strong overall too (though I’m sure the latter could be fixed with tuning).
In theory, sure - but the best crossover will be different from room to room, due to choosing a point that minimizes problems in the response. Peaks and dips are definitely audible, but it's only truly knowable by measuring. For example, if there is a dip in the response from my subs at 90Hz, I'm more likely to choose a lower crossover to bring the mains down lower to fill that in. If there is a dip in the mains response at 90Hz, I'm more likely to use a higher crossover to bring the subs up to fill that in. Hope that makes sense.

Another trick I employ: Sub 1 is behind the TV in the middle of the front wall, and Sub 2 is behind me in the middle of the back wall. You can draw a line between them that goes through me. Any otherwise localizable sounds combine in mono to form a "phantom bass center" in the general area around my seats. No problems with higher crossovers

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post #37382 of 39172 Old 03-09-2019, 09:31 PM
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The two FVX15's arrived today. The Black Oak finish is a little better than I thought it would be. Now, because I'm kind of dumb when it comes to subwoofers, I haven't set it up exactly how I want it yet, but I already know I made the right choice for the room they will be in. It sounds so much better than the Klipsch R-115SW I listened to a while back, even though I have barely done anything past a quick YPAO run. I still would have preferred an even "tighter" sound, but my room is too big for effective room gain with a sealed subwoofer. Time will tell if I can adjust it to my taste, and I think I will be able to get very close at least.
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post #37383 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadianatlas View Post
The two FVX15's arrived today. The Black Oak finish is a little better than I thought it would be. Now, because I'm kind of dumb when it comes to subwoofers, I haven't set it up exactly how I want it yet, but I already know I made the right choice for the room they will be in. It sounds so much better than the Klipsch R-115SW I listened to a while back, even though I have barely done anything past a quick YPAO run. I still would have preferred an even "tighter" sound, but my room is too big for effective room gain with a sealed subwoofer. Time will tell if I can adjust it to my taste, and I think I will be able to get very close at least.
"Tighter" is going to come from tweaking both position and crossover. YPAO, IMO, is not great at setting up dual subs - not as good, at any rate, as audyssey multeq xt32. Will definitely take more effort on your part to get them integrated to your liking.

Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR, Center: Emotiva Airmotiv C2; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #37384 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by echopraxia View Post
I’m actually more curious about how one is expected to power towers at 20hz (assuming no extra amplifiers in the towers), let alone the placement concern (which I can imagine for some rooms might not be an issue).

My understanding is to produce really loud audio at 20-30hz, you need a LOT of power; hence most high end subwoofers often having 500-1500 watt amps.

Whereas for high fidelity speaker amps, 200-300 watts seems pretty rare, let alone 500 watts!
If one has the budget for $20,000 speakers, buying enough power to feed them is likely not an issue. Efficiency also plays a role, such that if the speaker uses relatively efficient drivers, it won't take as much power to drive them. Also, someone who is spending $20k on a full range pair of speakers has to have the option to NOT cross to subs if they choose not to. Crossing to multiple subs may still be beneficial, although one might consider crossing lower than 80Hz depending on frequency response.
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post #37385 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 07:44 AM
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This thread is wandering a bit. The following is all IME/IMO etc.

I replied privately to a PM from @echopraxia saying essentially the same things I and many others have said many times before. Basically:

  • Room modes and SBIR usually dictate the smoothness of the bass response. Rarely is the best place for the mains in terms of imaging and such the best place for subs. That also drives the crossover point as well as what the mains can handle.
  • Many "large" speakers still have high distortion producing large bass signals that can easily require 100~1000 times more power than midrange signals of the same loudness.
  • It is usually better to use the power for the mains for the midbass up, offloading the system and speakers from deep bass instead of spending all the power in the wrong (physical) places.
  • Crossovers do not instantaneously drop to 0 output above and below the crossover frequency. An octave away (below) the crossover the mains still have significant energy using typical AVR crossovers (I use steeper crossovers FWIWFM). That means you still need good bass reproduction in the mains, and equal loudness curves say there is still a fair amount of power going to the mains.

My Rythmik subs, in my room, provide more than an octave lower range than the Salon2's could deliver and MUCH more importantly provide much smoother bass response than I could get with the Salon2's positioned for the best stereo image and soundstage. With a 150 Hz crossover to the three 8" woofers (equivalent to about a 14" single cone), accurately reproducing that octave-plus from my 70 Hz crossover (Floyd Toole uses 80 Hz for his BTW) and up is critical, and having it integrate smoothly with both the subs and the higher-frequency drivers in the Salon2's is a vital part of the listening experience to me.

Frankly, what sold me on the Revels was not their deep bass (I have that handled quite well, thank you Brian and Rythmik!) but the smooth sound and transition among drivers from the lower midrange through the treble region. That is where many speakers fall down IME and Revel tends to shine. An instrumental or vocal run or song that spans an octave or two does not sound right through many speakers -- the timbre changes a little passing through the crossover regions, and little "ripples" are audible due to driver dispersion and such. As a musician and engineer little discontinuities like that drive me crazy. Yes, it's a short drive.

Having good subs well integrated with the mains means much better sound top to bottom with greater dynamics, greater frequency extension, lower distortion, and smoother frequency response for everything I want to hear, be it a small jazz combo, full symphony orchestra, or big action movie.

I think those comments apply to any good speaker setup. My speakers, including my subs, do that for me. May yours do it for you.

IME/IMO/FWIWFM/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

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post #37386 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 10:05 AM
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Along the lines of this thread. I have a single Rythmik F12F sub, most of my crossovers are 80 hz, except the tiny DefTech surrounds set to 120hz.

My question is, I did not heed the advice years ago to spend more for a center speaker, so for now I’m stuck with my “MIRAGE OS3-CC”. The specs say: Frequency Response (+/-3dB) 70 Hz - 20 kHz
The center speaker is mounted below my HDTV, and a foot away from the sub.

Would it be advisable to raise the crossover if the CC to 90-100 hz?

Thanks.

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Ohm mains, Rythmik F12G sub
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post #37387 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 10:09 AM
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Anyone else find using the rubber feet on carpet helps reduce floor rattle/rumble and also improves SQ especially at higher SPL?

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post #37388 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 10:17 AM
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^
Definitely the case for me. I'm using the SVS isolation feet with my F8's, but I do sort of miss the energy/rumble I could feel thru the floor with the spikes. I'm using the rubber feet, in part, because it raises the subwoofer to help clear the feet of my floorstanding speakers.

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post #37389 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 10:46 AM
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I don't use the feet on my carpet. I figure, I paid for that rumble and enjoy it.

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post #37390 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 11:04 AM
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I’ve got my fv18 on one of those auralex subdude things. You guys got me wanting to put it right on the floor. I think I’m robbing myself of some floor rumbling. Lol

I just keep it on there so the vacuum doesn’t hit my sub.

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post #37391 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post
Bought the iTunes version of Bass I Love You, AAC. I have a single Rythmik F12G sub. Had to put my ear next to sub, the cone was moving nicely at about -7db on my Denon 3500 AVR. Could at times hear what I would call a “flutter”, maybe it’s distortion, not sure how to accurately discribe it. My sub is set for 14hz, with rumble filter on. Don’t know what if anything this means, but I backed the volume off, as I got concerned.
The flutter is amp clipping. I need to put a disclaimer here: unless you have plenty headroom, do not try Bass I Love you without rumble filter ON.

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post #37392 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
The flutter is amp clipping. I need to put a disclaimer here and unless you have plenty headroom, do not try Bass I Love you without rumble filter ON.
As I mentioned my rumble filter was ON, I’ll just assume with my F12G sub set to it’s lowest extension of 14hz, high damping, and rumble filter on, it’s just not up to these super low freqs. No big deal, I’m still just trying to learn, and my Rythmik is probably my best and most expensive speaker, going on 10 years of great audio service. I can’t go larger or duals in my apartment situation. Thanks.
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post #37393 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 12:14 PM
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As I mentioned my rumble filter was ON, I’ll just assume with my F12G sub set to it’s lowest extension of 14hz, high damping, and rumble filter on, it’s just not up to these super low freqs. No big deal, I’m still just trying to learn, and my Rythmik is probably my best and most expensive speaker, going on 10 years of great audio service. I can’t go larger or duals in my apartment situation. Thanks.
No problem. My wife likes the track. It is a bit too metallic for me. Every time I play on a 12" model, I need to take off the grille and watch out the cone excursion. Most of the time, you will see 12" subs like F12G cone moves a lot and yet, you don't hear much.
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post #37394 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by stash64 View Post
^
Definitely the case for me. I'm using the SVS isolation feet with my F8's, but I do sort of miss the energy/rumble I could feel thru the floor with the spikes. I'm using the rubber feet, in part, because it raises the subwoofer to help clear the feet of my floorstanding speakers.
I'm just using the supplied rubber feet with my L12. Not isolation feet but it does really help. FWIW, my carpet is very old and no longer provides much padding and the floorboards under it are old and creaky when I walk near where the sub is placed (and some other spots in the room too).

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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I don't use the feet on my carpet. I figure, I paid for that rumble and enjoy it.
I thought about that but in my case it very noticeably muddies the sound once I exceed maybe 90dB or so. Using the rubber feet gets rid of most of it and even sounds cleaner at lower SPL.

I still get some tactile response with the feet, as they are not designed for isolation anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
I’ve got my fv18 on one of those auralex subdude things. You guys got me wanting to put it right on the floor. I think I’m robbing myself of some floor rumbling. Lol

I just keep it on there so the vacuum doesn’t hit my sub.
I'd probably try it with and without the isolation mat and see which you prefer overall.

I've used my L12 for about 6 months without the feet, so when I switched it a week ago, I had a very good reference for how it used to sound.

Samsung 55" MU8000
Yamaha RX-A2070
KEF Q150 Bookshelf x 5
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post #37395 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I don't use the feet on my carpet. I figure, I paid for that rumble and enjoy it.
I thought about that but in my case it very noticeably muddies the sound once I exceed maybe 90dB or so. Using the rubber feet gets rid of most of it and even sounds cleaner at lower SPL.

I still get some tactile response with the feet, as they are not designed for isolation anyways.
I'll certainly experiment with that with my next subs, when the funds arrive in my bank account. Funny how they disappear so much faster than they take to accumulate.
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post #37396 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 05:36 PM
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Came across my old issues of Speaker Builder Magazine. Joseph D'Appolito's Swan IV were greatly lusted after in my youth. The L22s remind me greatly of the bass module.
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Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR, Center: Emotiva Airmotiv C2; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #37397 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy56 View Post
"Tighter" is going to come from tweaking both position and crossover. YPAO, IMO, is not great at setting up dual subs - not as good, at any rate, as audyssey multeq xt32. Will definitely take more effort on your part to get them integrated to your liking.
I have heard that YPAO has difficulty setting subwoofers up, and I believe it. I moved the crossover setting to 80 Hz, and raised the distance to 9' from 8', then I lowered the trim to -6 and raised volume by +6, these changes made it sound better, but not perfect. I'll figure it out eventually, but not for a little while, because they aren't setup in the right room right now. They're in a similar room instead, because we're going to be having some construction done inside and right outside of the TV room. I'm not going to bother adjusting the subwoofers any more until things are settled.
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post #37398 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 08:59 PM
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Just a quick answer

Cannot find a picture of amp for FV18
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...s/rythmik-fv18

Since I like to use all XLR cables, and piggy back In and Out XLR connections.
Not sure if, the FV18 can do that. Just like to know if this sub has an In and Out XLR capability?
Worst case scenario for me, will be using a Y-splitter for the second sub (intend to get two in the future) and one more Y-splitter for the my TT.


Ray

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post #37399 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Just a quick answer

Cannot find a picture of amp for FV18
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...s/rythmik-fv18

Since I like to use all XLR cables, and piggy back In and Out XLR connections.
Not sure if, the FV18 can do that. Just like to know if this sub has an In and Out XLR capability?
Worst case scenario for me, will be using a Y-splitter for the second sub (intend to get two in the future) and one more Y-splitter for the my TT.


Ray
The FV18 has dual XLR inputs, no XLR outs on this model.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |
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post #37400 of 39172 Old 03-10-2019, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Just a quick answer

Cannot find a picture of amp for FV18
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...s/rythmik-fv18

Since I like to use all XLR cables, and piggy back In and Out XLR connections.
Not sure if, the FV18 can do that. Just like to know if this sub has an In and Out XLR capability?
Worst case scenario for me, will be using a Y-splitter for the second sub (intend to get two in the future) and one more Y-splitter for the my TT.


Ray
Thinking of replacing your SVS subs, or setting up another system?
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Spoiler!

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post #37401 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 07:29 AM
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I finally bit the bullet and bought a calibrated umik 1 from Cross spectrum. Now the REW learning curve begins. Lol. Also need the wife and kids to pack up and go to grandmas for a week so I can tinker.

My yammy doesn’t do any eq in the sub. Would it be a wise investment to also pick up a mini dsp 2x4hd to eq the single sub, or just focus on sub placement? I plan on adding a second fv18 in the next 6 months so it would definitely be worthwhile for the 2 sub set up.

Any local Twin Cities MN Rythmik owners experienced with REW and MiniDSP?
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post #37402 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
I finally bit the bullet and bought a calibrated umik 1 from Cross spectrum. Now the REW learning curve begins. Lol. Also need the wife and kids to pack up and go to grandmas for a week so I can tinker.

My yammy doesn’t do any eq in the sub. Would it be a wise investment to also pick up a mini dsp 2x4hd to eq the single sub, or just focus on sub placement? I plan on adding a second fv18 in the next 6 months so it would definitely be worthwhile for the 2 sub set up.

Any local Twin Cities MN Rythmik owners experienced with REW and MiniDSP?

I have been considering the investment myself but like you, have zero experience and my technical skills are quite limited. However, I am eager to learn and pretty good at buying beer/food

Receiver: Marantz 5012 Power: Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 1
Towers: Klipsch RF83 Center: Klipsch RP450C
Surrounds: Klipsch RS42II
Subs: Dual Rythmik FV15HP
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post #37403 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 10:24 AM
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I have been considering the investment myself but like you, have zero experience and my technical skills are quite limited. However, I am eager to learn and pretty good at buying beer/food
Well as of now they are planning on leaving the last week of the month over the kids spring break. If that plays out and they actually leave I can pm ya. With enough beer maybe we can figure out how to run a couple sweeps. Lol
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post #37404 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 10:56 AM
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Anyone else find using the rubber feet on carpet helps reduce floor rattle/rumble and also improves SQ especially at higher SPL?
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^
Definitely the case for me. I'm using the SVS isolation feet with my F8's, but I do sort of miss the energy/rumble I could feel thru the floor with the spikes. I'm using the rubber feet, in part, because it raises the subwoofer to help clear the feet of my floorstanding speakers.
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I don't use the feet on my carpet. I figure, I paid for that rumble and enjoy it.
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
I’ve got my fv18 on one of those auralex subdude things. You guys got me wanting to put it right on the floor. I think I’m robbing myself of some floor rumbling. Lol

I just keep it on there so the vacuum doesn’t hit my sub.
I'm in the evaluation process of testing out some of the Rythmik spikes I got from enricoclaudio but system down at the moment and hope to resume soon, they are massive spikes to say the least ! From a quick listen? Think of having an even higher damping switch but will use do diligence and vet out

follow link for pics below, stay tuned

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57604774
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post #37405 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 10:59 AM
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I finally bit the bullet and bought a calibrated umik 1 from Cross spectrum. Now the REW learning curve begins. Lol. Also need the wife and kids to pack up and go to grandmas for a week so I can tinker.

My yammy doesn’t do any eq in the sub. Would it be a wise investment to also pick up a mini dsp 2x4hd to eq the single sub, or just focus on sub placement? I plan on adding a second fv18 in the next 6 months so it would definitely be worthwhile for the 2 sub set up.

Any local Twin Cities MN Rythmik owners experienced with REW and MiniDSP?

I happen to be in the Twin Cities with two F25 subs and have REW and a miniDSP (balanced 2x4, the HD version came out after I bought mine, but the HD version isn't balanced either, so I'm not sure I would have picked the HD version if I could have). I haven't tinkered with REW in a while, so I would have to read up on it again. I used it to do frequency responses mostly, nothing too complicated. I'm far from a sub expert, but I got my pair of F25's sounding pretty good in my opinion anyway. I had a lot of flexibility with placement though and my Anthem processor does a great job of integrating subs.

7.2.4 Setup | Display: LG 77" C8 OLED | Blu-ray: Oppo UDP-203 | Processor: Anthem AVM60 | Amps: Outlaw 7700, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 | Speakers: Paradigm Prestige (2) 95F's, 55C, (4) 15B's, (4) CI-Elite E65-R (Atmos) | Subs: (2) Rythmik F25's
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post #37406 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
I happen to be in the Twin Cities with two F25 subs and have REW and a miniDSP (balanced 2x4, the HD version came out after I bought mine, but the HD version isn't balanced either, so I'm not sure I would have picked the HD version if I could have). I haven't tinkered with REW in a while, so I would have to read up on it again. I used it to do frequency responses mostly, nothing too complicated. I'm far from a sub expert, but I got my pair of F25's sounding pretty good in my opinion anyway. I had a lot of flexibility with placement though and my Anthem processor does a great job of integrating subs.
Just sent ya a pm. Going by your signature, I want to listen to your system!
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post #37407 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
I'm in the evaluation process of testing out some of the Rythmik spikes I got from enricoclaudio but system down at the moment and hope to resume soon, they are massive spikes to say the least ! From a quick listen? Think of having an even higher damping switch but will use do diligence and vet out

follow link for pics below, stay tuned

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57604774
By a cruel twist, my E15HPs are arriving today, and I'll be down in Framingham, MA for the Magnepan 30.7 roadshow event with Wendell Diller. Guess I'll have to play with them tomorrow night instead. And yes I'll at least bring them indoors when I get home!
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2Ch: Magnepan 1.7i | LR: Paradigm Signature S4 v1 | C:Paradigm Prestige 55C | Surrounds: Paradigm Studio 20v5 | Rear: Paradigm Atom v7 | Atmos: Micca M-8C | Subs: Rythmik E15HP (x2) | AVR: Denon X4300H | Amp: Outlaw Model 5000 | TV: Sony XBR75x850E | Players: Oppo UDP-203, U-Turn Orbit Plus
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post #37408 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 11:11 AM
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By a cruel twist, my E15HPs are arriving today, and I'll be down in Framingham, MA for the Magnepan 30.7 roadshow event with Wendell Diller. Guess I'll have to play with them tomorrow night instead. And yes I'll at least bring them indoors when I get home!
That's gonna be a killer combo have fun and keep us posted
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post #37409 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The FV18 has dual XLR inputs, no XLR outs on this model.
Thank you for the information, and the pictures
Very much appreciated.

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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Thinking of replacing your SVS subs, or setting up another system?
Very observant
It would be to replace my two PB-13. That said when doing big purchase, I like to get as many details way ahead.
It might be in a couple years, the exchange rate right now is way too high (1.39 CDN for 1 US dollar).


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 03-11-2019 at 05:27 PM.
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post #37410 of 39172 Old 03-11-2019, 05:31 PM
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Enricoclaudio, I'm down to choosing between 3 sub brands for my 2-channel system.
I think 2 of that 12FGs from you guys will do fine.
I plan on doing DIY, is it possible to get one of the more powerful amps you offer, like the H600?
Obviously paying extra for it.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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