Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1255 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37621 of 39082 Old 03-24-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
FV18 is +3dB over FV15HP and costs $400 more. PPD declines slightly, but it's still not a bad deal at all. One of the best in the 18" space, really. I would say it's worth the step up.

Model Cost SPL at 20Hz Perf. Relative to F12 Perf. per $
FV15HP $1,399.00 106.6 283% 2.03
FV18 $1,799.00 109.6 333% 1.85
Ummm... not according to Data-bass though...



FV18 'only' averaged 0.5dB more from 16~80Hz. $300 is a lot for 0.5dB more, wouldn't you say?

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post #37622 of 39082 Old 03-24-2019, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

I think that @Soulburner should be commended for developing an output per dollar matrix for Rythmik subwoofers. I honestly think the matrix can be useful to some prospective buyers. But, I also think that the proposition of an output per dollar matrix tends to break down when we exceed a certain base level of performance.

I think that as long as people are comparing only a particular frequency (such as 20Hz) or a limited frequency range, the comparison works. But, we have to pay more for the lowest frequencies, and if that is important to someone, then the fact that there is another subwoofer, which has a better output per dollar ratio at 20Hz, may be completely irrelevant to the buyer.

Whether we are talking about subwoofers, or automobiles, or something similar, there will be a base level of performance where good economy comparisons can be made. And, then there will be a point at which we are paying a relatively higher premium for additional performance over-and-above that base level. And, economy will not be the most important consideration at that point. It will be performance. In this case, it will be extreme performance at frequencies well below 20Hz. Unfortunately, more output at very low-frequencies simply costs more.

Regards,
Mike
Completely agree, and well said, Mike. These numbers are really just an extension of Rythmik's own relative performance levels (validated by data-bass testing where possible) and it should be noted that there are other considerations when making a purchase.

The data points can be useful for some, especially when considering similar models, and especially when we have the option to buy multiple. Many people ask "should I get 1 of Model X, or 2 of Model Y?" Consider the following scenario: the FVX15 has a better PPD than the FV15HP. So, it may seem that buying a bunch of those is the way to go. It turns out that if you build out to 2 subs, 3 subs, 4...what you'll find is that it depends.

2*FV15HP = 112.6dB at 20Hz, $2616
3*FVX15 = 113.1dB at 20Hz, $2997 <-- $381 more for 0.5dB, and only if you have room for a 3rd. But if you do, and you spread them out, you'll get smoother bass response than with 2.

Let's see how it continues to scale.

3*FV15HP = 115.6dB at 20Hz, $3924
4*FVX15 = 116.1dB at 20Hz, $3996 <-- $72 more for 0.5dB, but only if you have room for a 4th sub. Same room response benefits as above, but going from 3 to 4 subs is a smaller improvement. We're getting to the point where some may opt for 3*FV15HP due to space constraints.

You can see that in these scenarios, it isn't quite cut and dried. So Rythmik has done a good job at developing their prices.
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post #37623 of 39082 Old 03-24-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Ummm... not according to Data-bass though...



FV18 'only' averaged 0.5dB more from 16~80Hz. $300 is a lot for 0.5dB more, wouldn't you say?
What we learned from the earlier discussion was that the FV15HP results can't be compared with the newer tests.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57361140

The discussion went back and forth but after it was all settled, we were able to come to conclusions that settled the issue and confidence in the numbers on the Rythmik site increased.
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post #37624 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 03:43 AM
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I'm curious to see a comparison between the FV15HP, the Captivator 118HT and the dollar value comparison. I'm especially interested in the low end comparison at 12.5 Hz.
I'm guessing this is the previous gen JTR, and probably the FV15HP before the redesigned ports, but it's a jumping off point.


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post #37625 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Ummm... not according to Data-bass though...



FV18 'only' averaged 0.5dB more from 16~80Hz. $300 is a lot for 0.5dB more, wouldn't you say?
This is where a ranking system may not deliver fair comparison. The FV18 uses 2 ports to provide 12hz tuning vs FV15HP of 1 port. The extra relief below 20hz will give you extra headroom for signals above 20hz. In addition, we now have paper cone version FV18 which increases the output above 50hz even more.

$300 price difference also includes shipping difference: FV18 is shipped via freight and FV15HP is shipped via UPS small package. After you subtract that, the real price difference is $150. It is a bargain for FV18, wouldn't you say?

PS: I have a Houston customer iamsabit313 upgrading from FV15HP to FV18 alu cone. I did help him roll FV18 via a narrow stairway to 2nd floor . That is quite a lot of effort for both of us. He can easily tell the difference that FV18 adds to TR. In short, if size and manageability is key, go with FV15HP. Otherwise, FV18 alu and paper cone both will have an edge over FV15HP.

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post #37626 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
This is where a ranking system may not deliver fair comparison. The FV18 uses 2 ports to provide 12hz tuning vs FV15HP of 1 port. The extra relief below 20hz will give you extra headroom for signals above 20hz. In addition, we now have paper cone version FV18 which increases the output above 50hz even more.



$300 price difference also includes shipping difference: FV18 is shipped via freight and FV15HP is shipped via UPS small package. After you subtract that, the real price difference is $150. It is a bargain for FV18, wouldn't you say?


Brian, I totally agree. I think the FV18 is a bargain for the performance it delivers. I am completely blown away by the FV18 paper cone performance in all areas.


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post #37627 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Brian, I totally agree. I think the FV18 is a bargain for the performance it delivers. I am completely blown away by the FV18 paper cone performance in all areas.


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More output and lower extension than the JTR Cap 118HT at a lower price when including shipping. And, the 118HT is supposed to be a damn fine subwoofer.
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post #37628 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
do people think 18's sound different than 15's? I kinda do. but since I dont own any 18's, just wondering....
Yes. They do. Larger diameter drivers do sound like they have higher inertia. F8 is our smallest sub with lightest weight cone. What I can describe is it has planner speaker characteristic in the bass department. All of these is a comparison I do while all of them have the almost exactly same bass extension contours.

The conclusion is driver inertia is audible. Larger diameter drivers tend to sound more authoritative. But it is even more important to have sufficient cone control to prevent it from getting boomy.
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post #37629 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
More output and lower extension than the JTR Cap 118HT at a lower price when including shipping. And, the 118HT is supposed to be a damn fine subwoofer.


I did compare the two and yes the main difference was below 20hz. The FV18 had over a 10db advantage as Jeff had tuned the 118 to 20hz. Since my feedback to him, he has lowered the tune to around 17-18hz. The paper cone and the 118 sounded more alike than different. The 118 is my favorite JTR sub and has excellent performance but for a lower price and better performance down low and having the multi tune flexibility, the FV18 paper cone would be my choice as it ended up being.


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post #37630 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Ummm... not according to Data-bass though...



FV18 'only' averaged 0.5dB more from 16~80Hz. $300 is a lot for 0.5dB more, wouldn't you say?

This is where even on data-bass, they are not apple to apple comparison beside the usual temperature differences when measurements were taken. The FV15 was measured with Low damping, rumble filter OFF, Limiter OFF whereas the FV18 with Mid damping, Rumble filter ON, limiter ON. People who own Rythmik subs know these settings result in different db readings and SQ. The tested FV15 had 120Hz upper limit. The FV18 has a new digital amp that from recent report, they run cool after hours of hard pounding usage.


One important part that people keep missing when comparing the output numbers is the distortion levels. Look at it, there are HUGE advantages on the FV18 over the FV15. SQ should be much better on the FV18 with less port noise. I would pay the price differences for the FV18 in a heartbeat.

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post #37631 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 10:20 AM
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Guys,

Take it easy...

Out of the 2, I would pick FV18 over FV15HP everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday!!! Just look at what subwoofer I have...

There is a reason I ended that post with a wink!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

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post #37632 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 10:22 AM
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^^ The point I was trying to make is it is not just about output numbers, Chucky.
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post #37633 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ The point I was trying to make is it is not just about output numbers, Chucky.
Yes, I know... LOL... Tony!

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post #37634 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 11:50 AM
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I had my wife's brother listen to my dual FV25HPs yesterday (they arrived last Monday). We watched Hacksaw Ridge and he was blown away by the bass even though I didn't really crank the subwoofers. I asked him about the four in-ceiling speakers for ATMOS and he said he was overwhelmed by the bass so he really couldn't hear them. The subwoofers are pretty frightening during the explosions especially when the battleships fire their 16 inch guns. He thought they were overkill and I know that a pair of FV18s would most likely have been sufficient for my layout. However, I wanted the more powerful amplifier in my back pocket in case I ever needed it. I have zero regrets on my purchase.

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post #37635 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tswon View Post
I had my wife's brother listen to my dual FV25HPs yesterday (they arrived last Monday). We watched Hacksaw Ridge and he was blown away by the bass even though I didn't really crank the subwoofers. I asked him about the four in-ceiling speakers for ATMOS and he said he was overwhelmed by the bass so he really couldn't hear them. The subwoofers are pretty frightening during the explosions especially when the battleships fire their 16 inch guns. He thought they were overkill and I know that a pair of FV18s would most likely have been sufficient for my layout. However, I wanted the more powerful amplifier in my back pocket in case I ever needed it. I have zero regrets on my purchase.


I am glad you listened


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post #37636 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 01:21 PM
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f18

I have F18, I have the extension filter set to 12 mid, sounds pretty good when I watch movies. just curious what everybody else sets theirs to when watching movies?Just curious what the differences are between 12 mid and 18 low and so forth.
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post #37637 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
I have F18, I have the extension filter set to 12 mid, sounds pretty good when I watch movies. just curious what everybody else sets theirs to when watching movies?Just curious what the differences are between 12 mid and 18 low and so forth.
I run my F18's on high damping/12hz extension for everything. I suppose clicking to mid damping may provide a little more oomph for movies, but I'm very satisfied with their output and sq.
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post #37638 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
One important part that people keep missing when comparing the output numbers is the distortion levels. Look at it, there are HUGE advantages on the FV18 over the FV15. SQ should be much better on the FV18 with less port noise. I would pay the price differences for the FV18 in a heartbeat.
I would love to have them, but I always go duals, and there is no way I'm getting one, let alone two of those things up into my 2nd floor room.

...unless I removed the drivers and carried them separately from the boxes. Is that a thing people do? What does an FV18 driver weigh?

Then there's DIY - I'd like to see more DIY Rythmiks in this thread.

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post #37639 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I would love to have them, but I always go duals, and there is no way I'm getting one, let alone two of those things up into my 2nd floor room.



...unless I removed the drivers and carried them separately from the boxes. Is that a thing people do? What does an FV18 driver weigh?



Then there's DIY - I'd like to see more DIY Rythmiks in this thread.


You can’t get them up to your room due to limited access? With two people they are not that bad to handle. I got mine up with two people with boxes and I am not a big guy.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev 2 with Paper cone
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post #37640 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Yes. They do. Larger diameter drivers do sound like they have higher inertia. F8 is our smallest sub with lightest weight cone. What I can describe is it has planner speaker characteristic in the bass department. All of these is a comparison I do while all of them have the almost exactly same bass extension contours.

The conclusion is driver inertia is audible. Larger diameter drivers tend to sound more authoritative. But it is even more important to have sufficient cone control to prevent it from getting boomy.
This is really interesting. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by (I presume you meant to type) a planar speaker characteristic from the smaller drivers?

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post #37641 of 39082 Old 03-25-2019, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
This is really interesting. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by (I presume you meant to type) a planar speaker characteristic from the smaller drivers?
I have a pair of Vandersteen 2wq subs crossed-over with my mains to make them full-range for music... These subs each use three 8" drivers and aRe very agile and articulate... I believe that may be where Rythmik was headed...

Here's a reprint of a review of the 2wq subs from Richard Hardesty who used to do the sub reviews for Widescreen Review... this should be an interesting read for you...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...52vJPjPyPHNP0E

BTW... I'm looking at replacing my SVS PB13U LFE channel sub with a Rythmik...

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post #37642 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 02:27 AM
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Recently I brought Rythmik LV12F subwoofer ....

Connected my subwoofer ( from my Denon AVR's subwoofer preout to LFE in subwoofer ) ....

But the output is very low .... (Subwoofer's volume set at 12'o clock )

When my mobile phone is connected to L&R of the subwoofer .... It plays pretty well .... But when connected to AVR it plays with very low output ...

I think the AVR is sending very low signal to pre out ....

Can I connect pre out to an headphone amp to amplify it and send it to subwoofer's line in ie., L & R ?
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post #37643 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
This is really interesting. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by (I presume you meant to type) a planar speaker characteristic from the smaller drivers?
Planar speakers tend to sound more "airy" with the ability to resolve quite a bit of details. The opposite of that is a poorly designed dynamic speakers with one note bass that some may liken to as "kick in the guts" type of midbass.

Don has Maggie and Greg has ML. So there are quite a few of planar speakers owner here with Rythmik subs. They can also comment.
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post #37644 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Yes. They do. Larger diameter drivers do sound like they have higher inertia. F8 is our smallest sub with lightest weight cone. What I can describe is it has planner speaker characteristic in the bass department. All of these is a comparison I do while all of them have the almost exactly same bass extension contours.

The conclusion is driver inertia is audible. Larger diameter drivers tend to sound more authoritative. But it is even more important to have sufficient cone control to prevent it from getting boomy.
Brian, while a larger cone would have more weight and air resistance i.e. inertia, can't that be offset by a proportional increase in motor force?
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post #37645 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
I have F18, I have the extension filter set to 12 mid, sounds pretty good when I watch movies. just curious what everybody else sets theirs to when watching movies?Just curious what the differences are between 12 mid and 18 low and so forth.
I own 1 FV18 Aluminum cone. Super love it Ported for headroom best for my big living hall HT.
Manual stated for HT use - recommended is 12hz Low Damping


I tried 12 hz High damping kind of too clean lioa, will prefer more extension and Oympth for HT.

So i stay with 12hz Low damping.

I guess 12hz\medium damping is ideal too.

Enjoy HT
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post #37646 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric HA View Post
Brian, while a larger cone would have more weight and air resistance i.e. inertia, can't that be offset by a proportional increase in motor force?
It is very intuitive to think the motor force can compensate that. But I can give you two observation that it may not.

First in T/S parameters, mass is represented as a capacitor in the impedance curve and voice coil "inductance" is the one that weakens the role of capacitor. So one can increase the motor force by putting in more winding in voice coil. But we know the practice also increases the voice coil inductance. So far, I haven't seen any motor structure that can do both: increasing the motor strength and at the same time keep the voice coil inductance in check. For instance, we design DS1820 driver so that the inductance does not crossover to mass capacitor until 100hz. But for F8, the crossover point is as high as 200hz to 250hz. Small diameter drivers just naturally do that.

Second, we probably want to imagine ourselves as riding on the cone and check all the parameters that can affect the cone movement. Wait, we ride on cars all the time. In general, we can pretty much sense the weight of cars with driving dynamics. Same is driver cone and its T/S parameter. With larger cone diameters, the T/S parameters will never be same as smaller cone. Larger cone always have low Fs (free air resonance frequency). For instance, F18 in box has a resonance frequency at about 30hz. F8 in box has a resonance frequency at about 50hz. So these difference already contributes to sound quality difference. It is advantageous to keep Fs higher even with larger driver diameter (but not with stiff spider/surround as these contributes to more distortion). To achieve high Fs in large driver, the cone needs to be lighter meaning the cone density needs to be likewise and that leads to more flexible cone movement. And that leads to another round of compromise.

In short, "motor force can overcome the cone weight" does not hold water if one takes a deeper dive.
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post #37647 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
It is very intuitive to think the motor force can compensate that. But I can give you two observation that it may not.

First in T/S parameters, mass is represented as a capacitor in the impedance curve and voice coil "inductance" is the one that weakens the role of capacitor. So one can increase the motor force by putting in more winding in voice coil. But we know the practice also increases the voice coil inductance. So far, I haven't seen any motor structure that can do both: increasing the motor strength and at the same time keep the voice coil inductance in check. For instance, we design DS1820 driver so that the inductance does not crossover to mass capacitor until 100hz. But for F8, the crossover point is as high as 200hz to 250hz. Small diameter drivers just naturally do that.

Second, we probably want to imagine ourselves as riding on the cone and check all the parameters that can affect the cone movement. Wait, we ride on cars all the time. In general, we can pretty much sense the weight of cars with driving dynamics. Same is driver cone and its T/S parameter. With larger cone diameters, the T/S parameters will never be same as smaller cone. Larger cone always have low Fs (free air resonance frequency). For instance, F18 in box has a resonance frequency at about 30hz. F8 in box has a resonance frequency at about 50hz. So these difference already contributes to sound quality difference. It is advantageous to keep Fs higher even with larger driver diameter (but not with stiff spider/surround as these contributes to more distortion). To achieve high Fs in large driver, the cone needs to be lighter meaning the cone density needs to be likewise and that leads to more flexible cone movement. And that leads to another round of compromise.

In short, "motor force can overcome the cone weight" does not hold water if one takes a deeper dive.
Excellent info Brian, I'm glad that I asked. I have no intention of removing my F18's for a room full of F8's, but your insight does give some credence to the long held belief (by some) that smaller drivers are more accurate.
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post #37648 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:58 AM
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Just want to say THANK YOU to @enricoclaudio for helping me with a slight issue that popped up with one of my FV15HP's. Quick and relatively easy solution for The Force Theater. Hardest part was getting behind my screen and making the small adjustment to the sub due to the extremely tight space I have to work with lol
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post #37649 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 06:59 AM
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^^^

BTW, speaking of voice coil inductance, planar speakers have very low voice coil inductance. For eletro-static planar speakers like ML, the voice coil inductance is 0.
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post #37650 of 39082 Old 03-26-2019, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeshmahrn View Post
Recently I brought Rythmik LV12F subwoofer ....

Connected my subwoofer ( from my Denon AVR's subwoofer preout to LFE in subwoofer ) ....

But the output is very low .... (Subwoofer's volume set at 12'o clock )

When my mobile phone is connected to L&R of the subwoofer .... It plays pretty well .... But when connected to AVR it plays with very low output ...

I think the AVR is sending very low signal to pre out ....

Can I connect pre out to an headphone amp to amplify it and send it to subwoofer's line in ie., L & R ?
Did you run Audyssey with the new subwoofer? Did you change your speakers to small and crossover to 80Hz for all speakers after Audyssey? Also, feel free to increase the subwoofer level on the receiver up to +9dB. If you want a better explanation of my previous recommendations and the whole calibration process, please download the "Dialing In Rythmik Subwoofers" guide from my signature.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
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