Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1256 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37651 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric HA View Post
Excellent info Brian, I'm glad that I asked. I have no intention of removing my F18's for a room full of F8's, but your insight does give some credence to the long held belief (by some) that smaller drivers are more accurate.
The driver in F18 is a very good one with controlled inductance. There are manufactures don't even care about and the crossover between mass capacitor and voice coil inductance can happen as low as 60hz. Then they use DSP to cover it up. That does not put the problem away.
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post #37652 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
I have F18, I have the extension filter set to 12 mid, sounds pretty good when I watch movies. just curious what everybody else sets theirs to when watching movies?Just curious what the differences are between 12 mid and 18 low and so forth.


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I run my F18's on high damping/12hz extension for everything. I suppose clicking to mid damping may provide a little more oomph for movies, but I'm very satisfied with their output and sq.
I'm running 12hz / high damping for everything as well as this provides excellent bass articulation while providing good headroom. I'm also nearing my conclusion on the spikes for the F18 and so far its all favorable
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post #37653 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 12:37 PM
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I found my response curves using rew were best at high damping and 12hz.
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post #37654 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quick and relatively easy solution for The Force Theater
Love your ‘The Force Theater’. Look clean and beautiful with excellent gears. I bet it sounds amazing there.
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post #37655 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 02:13 PM
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Love your ‘The Force Theater’. Look clean and beautiful with excellent gears. I bet it sounds amazing there.
Appreciate it! Yes, thankfully was in a position to be able to build this during our new house build over a year ago and am grateful to have connected with several folks active on this forum that were able to help along the way

The Rythmik's do sound absolutely fantastic along with the other gear in the room
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post #37656 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Yes. They do. Larger diameter drivers do sound like they have higher inertia. F8 is our smallest sub with lightest weight cone. What I can describe is it has planner speaker characteristic in the bass department. All of these is a comparison I do while all of them have the almost exactly same bass extension contours.

The conclusion is driver inertia is audible. Larger diameter drivers tend to sound more authoritative. But it is even more important to have sufficient cone control to prevent it from getting boomy.
Brian, in the same token, two 15” drivers sub has larger diameter than one 18” driver sub. So does two 15” sub sound more authoritative than one 18” sub assuming both subs use the SAME amp power?
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post #37657 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 10:31 PM
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Magnepan uses low-order crossovers and panels with lots of overlap in the frequency range. That provides a more seamless transition among drivers than many conventional speakers, leading to better imaging with no funny "wiggles" in the response through the critical voice range (~300 Hz to 3 kHz). Too many speakers have little discontinuities in the vocal band as the sound moves between (among) drivers to my ears. It's hard to describe but easy to hear; images "snap" into position and there is no change in the sound as voices and instruments slide up and down the (musical) scale. I have since changed to Revel speakers and find they share similar characteristics.

In the interest of maintaining that smooth sound passing through the various drivers and crossovers, it is helpful to have a subwoofer that can handle frequencies well above the crossover. Remember the crossover is not a brick wall dropping to zero on either side; a typical 12 dB/octave AVR crossover means the sub is about half as loud as the mains nearly an octave above the crossover, and the mains are about half as loud an octave below the crossover. Having a sub with a higher frequency response like the F8 helps provide that seamless transition and sense of "air" Brian described. In my case, decades ago I discovered servo subs by inventing my own design, interestingly similar to Brian's. The servo helps provide the equivalent of a much more power amplifier with much lower output impedance to better control the sub's driver. That in combination with a higher-order crossover design enabled me to produce a subwoofer that mated well with my Maggies. Thus, nearly 30 years later, Rythmik was an obvious choice, and one I have been very happy with. As I've said before, I was vexed to discover that subs I felt worthy of my Maggies were in the $3k to $5k range until trying Rythmik. The rest is history.

Oh, the Revels take the opposite approach -- multiple drivers, high-order crossovers, very professionally (scientifically) tweaked to provide a smooth transition from driver-to-driver, not only in frequency response but also in radiation pattern (much more critical in conventional speakers).

Finally, keeping the sub low enough that the energy is pretty much inaudible before reaching that critical voice band is the usual approach, and leads to the 80 Hz crossover often cited. Below the frequency most of us cannot localize the speaker, meaning the sound does not mess up the mains, and allow us to place them for smoothest in-room frequency response without compromising the stereo (or multichannel) image. That means a sub that plays cleanly with low distortion above and below the crossover point. At 80 Hz, a high second harmonic distortion term is at 160 Hz, readily heard and localized. You don't want that, or at least I don't, and another reason I like servo subs (a crossover doesn't matter if the sub's distortion is the source of the higher-frequency sound).

ESLs are tricky -- the panels are essentially big capacitors and so drop very low in impedance at high frequency. However, the vast majority use a transformer to step up the amplifier's voltage to drive the panels, so there's a big inductor in the circuit. Their HF impedance is low because of the big capacitor that is the panel, but looking into the speaker it is not necessarily capacitive. But the wide frequency range and corresponding need for a very clean sub is the same as for planar magnetics (Magnepan) or ribbons (Apogee and speakers with ribbons mid/tweeter drivers).

Sorry for all the babble, HTH - Don
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post #37658 of 40624 Old 03-26-2019, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Yes. They do. Larger diameter drivers do sound like they have higher inertia. F8 is our smallest sub with lightest weight cone. What I can describe is it has planner speaker characteristic in the bass department. All of these is a comparison I do while all of them have the almost exactly same bass extension contours.

The conclusion is driver inertia is audible. Larger diameter drivers tend to sound more authoritative. But it is even more important to have sufficient cone control to prevent it from getting boomy.
Brian, in the same token, two 15” drivers sub has larger diameter than one 18” driver sub. So does two 15” sub sound more authoritative than one 18” sub assuming both subs use the SAME amp power?
This is a good question, but wouldn't you want amp power to be adjusted so that it's at an appropriate level to achieve the same SPL on either system? Then you do the comparison.

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post #37659 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 07:16 AM
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^^^


In this particular case that Tony mentioned, the difference between two 15" and 18" drivers is small. The more obvious case will be 18"/15" vs 12" or even 8".

In all the comparison I have done, the level of the subwoofer is kept the same via SPL meter measurement @40hz. I can further adjust 1db or 2db up and down to compare.

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post #37660 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 08:55 AM
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Can sub pre out be given to L&R of Rythmik subwoofer
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post #37661 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Ummm... not according to Data-bass though...



FV18 'only' averaged 0.5dB more from 16~80Hz. $300 is a lot for 0.5dB more, wouldn't you say? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]
This is where a ranking system may not deliver fair comparison. The FV18 uses 2 ports to provide 12hz tuning vs FV15HP of 1 port. The extra relief below 20hz will give you extra headroom for signals above 20hz. In addition, we now have paper cone version FV18 which increases the output above 50hz even more.

$300 price difference also includes shipping difference: FV18 is shipped via freight and FV15HP is shipped via UPS small package. After you subtract that, the real price difference is $150. It is a bargain for FV18, wouldn't you say?

PS: I have a Houston customer iamsabit313 upgrading from FV15HP to FV18 alu cone. I did help him roll FV18 via a narrow stairway to 2nd floor . That is quite a lot of effort for both of us. He can easily tell the difference that FV18 adds to TR. In short, if size and manageability is key, go with FV15HP. Otherwise, FV18 alu and paper cone both will have an edge over FV15HP.
😂 that was quite an workout Brian-San! Apologize about my tiny staircase opening. You should have stayed for the lunch, food was terrific.
Well, about the difference between FV15HP and FV18 ALC, FV15HP was absolutely terrific but it lacked the ability to replicate the BR2049 experience I had at an IMAX theater in Singapore. Call me crazy, but I’m a huge blade runner fan and I upgraded only because of the opening sequence of BR2049. I also tried PB16Ultra, PSA, HSU and all other id subs that people consider usually. They are all great choices but FV25HP and FV18 were the only two subs that were successful at replicating the aural experience I had watching this movie in the theater. I would go for the FV25 but as Brian San mentioned my upstairs staircase opening is very slim. So it’s quite literally impossible to take such big and heavy things upstairs unless you hire a moving company.
But FV18 exceeded my expectations and in my room and there is a night and day difference in TR and sound quality, ok yeah the last part is subjective but yes, to my ears FV18 has better definitions in instrumental soundtracks, plenty of headroom and ability to scare you in an LFE heavy movie. I was running FV15HP volume at 3 o’clock but on the FV18 I can’t get past 10 o’clock.
Hope that helps.
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post #37662 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 10:18 AM
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😂 that was quite an workout Brian-San! Apologize about my tiny staircase opening. You should have stayed for the lunch, food was terrific.
Well, about the difference between FV15HP and FV18 ALC, FV15HP was absolutely terrific but it lacked the ability to replicate the BR2049 experience I had at an IMAX theater in Singapore. Call me crazy, but I’m a huge blade runner fan and I upgraded only because of the opening sequence of BR2049. I also tried PB16Ultra, PSA, HSU and all other id subs that people consider usually. They are all great choices but FV25HP and FV18 were the only two subs that were successful at replicating the aural experience I had watching this movie in the theater. I would go for the FV25 but as Brian San mentioned my upstairs staircase opening is very slim. So it’s quite literally impossible to take such big and heavy things upstairs unless you hire a moving company.
But FV18 exceeded my expectations and in my room and there is a night and day difference in TR and sound quality, ok yeah the last part is subjective but yes, to my ears FV18 has better definitions in instrumental soundtracks, plenty of headroom and ability to scare you in an LFE heavy movie. I was running FV15HP volume at 3 o’clock but on the FV18 I can’t get past 10 o’clock.
Hope that helps.
Funny that you are mentioning BR2049 opening scene as I mentioned to @tvuong , @toddct and @imureh about that scene and they said it's not that impressive. I was watching it last night while testing my new ATMOS speakers with a recently installed Denon X6500H and that scene is one of the best scenes to test subwoofers/ATMOS systems. It is scary as hell and the soundtrack is just AMAZING.
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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
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post #37663 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 10:44 AM
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Funny that you are mentioning BR2049 opening scene as I mentioned to @tvuong , @toddct and @imureh about that scene and they said it's not that impressive. I was watching it last night while testing my new ATMOS speakers with a recently installed Denon X6500H and that scene is one of the best scenes to test subwoofers/ATMOS systems. It is scary as hell and the soundtrack is just AMAZING.





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post #37664 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 10:50 AM
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Funny that you are mentioning BR2049 opening scene as I mentioned to @tvuong , @toddct and @imureh about that scene and they said it's not that impressive. I was watching it last night while testing my new ATMOS speakers with a recently installed Denon X6500H and that scene is one of the best scenes to test subwoofers/ATMOS systems. It is scary as hell and the soundtrack is just AMAZING.
On the contrary my good man, me likey that scene! That whole movie is a feast for the ears and the eyes! It's best if you watch it and the original together.

If I did say I didn't think it was impressive, it was probably the margaritas talking.

Todd
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post #37665 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 11:34 AM
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Funny that you are mentioning BR2049 opening scene as I mentioned to @tvuong , @toddct and @imureh about that scene and they said it's not that impressive. I was watching it last night while testing my new ATMOS speakers with a recently installed Denon X6500H and that scene is one of the best scenes to test subwoofers/ATMOS systems. It is scary as hell and the soundtrack is just AMAZING.[/QUOTE]

Yep! Also Joe VS Luv fight scene in the last act is also outstanding in sound design and atmos implementation.
I will come by one day to check out the atmos setup.
Also, I need a sealed unit for the bedroom. Hmm, options and options!
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post #37666 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 02:58 PM
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On the contrary my good man, me likey that scene! That whole movie is a feast for the ears and the eyes! It's best if you watch it and the original together.

Todd
Agreed. When it came out I took the opportunity to upgrade my copy of the original to 4k Blu ray. Watching both back to back is, well, exhilarating. Extraordinary movie making.
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post #37667 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 07:16 PM
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Thinking about joining the Rythmik family. Need input... for my space (see attached pic), (2) 12's now or (1) 15 now and another one down the road? I currently have a budget 10" subwoofer and it does an ok job. I've installed doors in between basement and storage area. So basement area is somewhat isolated. Thanks in advance.
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post #37668 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 07:38 PM
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Thinking about joining the Rythmik family. Need input... for my space (see attached pic), (2) 12's now or (1) 15 now and another one down the road? I currently have a budget 10" subwoofer and it does an ok job. I've installed doors in between basement and storage area. So basement area is somewhat isolated. Thanks in advance.
(2) FV18s PC 🙂
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post #37669 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 07:39 PM
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Those of you with f18s, what frequency are you crossing them over with your speakers? Mine is getting delivered on Friday but I've never used a subwoofer with my speakers before so I'm not really sure how to integrate everything.
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post #37670 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 07:56 PM
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Those of you with f18s, what frequency are you crossing them over with your speakers? Mine is getting delivered on Friday but I've never used a subwoofer with my speakers before so I'm not really sure how to integrate everything.
Crossover selection is highly dependent on main speaker capability and in-room response of subs and mains. But 80 Hz is a good starting point. If you have the tools to measure (ie REW and a miniDSP UMIK-1 or similar), you would be able to hone in on the most optimal crossover and phase matching.

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post #37671 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 08:40 PM
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Those of you with f18s, what frequency are you crossing them over with your speakers? Mine is getting delivered on Friday but I've never used a subwoofer with my speakers before so I'm not really sure how to integrate everything.
It depends how deep you want to go into the weeds, and your system. If you are running an AVR like I'm guessing most of us are, you just run Audyssey, or whatever your room correction is, set all your speakers as small, and your crossover to 80 Hz after room correction. Good starting point for everyone, and final point for a lot of us. Also, check out the guide in Enrico's sig for more specific details on Rythmik setup, and the guide in Mike's sig if you want more understanding and details of subwoofer setup.

Laulau's guide in Enrico's sig.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post25314641

Mike's Guide:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post55725252
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post #37672 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by elusiveis View Post
Thinking about joining the Rythmik family. Need input... for my space (see attached pic), (2) 12's now or (1) 15 now and another one down the road? I currently have a budget 10" subwoofer and it does an ok job. I've installed doors in between basement and storage area. So basement area is somewhat isolated. Thanks in advance.
It would be great if you could add a door at the stairs as well to seal the room.

It is not large, sans the open stairs, so a pair of 12's would probably do the trick. Especially if your current 10" is "ok". If you may move to a larger space later then a 15" may be a better choice.

IMO -- most here fall into the "anything worth doing is worth overdoing" camp but I need to save for retirement - Don
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post #37673 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
It would be great if you could add a door at the stairs as well to seal the room.

It is not large, sans the open stairs, so a pair of 12's would probably do the trick. Especially if your current 10" is "ok". If you may move to a larger space later then a 15" may be a better choice.

IMO -- most here fall into the "anything worth doing is worth overdoing" camp but I need to save for retirement - Don
Don't you have a Revel Salon 2 setup? Going up a size on subwoofers from what you think you need is a pittance in comparison. Just sayin'.
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post #37674 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 10:05 PM
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Don't you have a Revel Salon 2 setup? Going up a size on subwoofers from what you think you need is a pittance in comparison. Just sayin'.
Don't really have space (though with my current setup could probably fit a couple of 15") and do not need more. My four little F12's are -3 dB at about 7 Hz in my room and put out enough to damage walls, furniture, and ears. Sometimes overkill just means "kill". And I think my current system is killer just as it is, so there!
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #37675 of 40624 Old 03-27-2019, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Don't really have space (though with my current setup could probably fit a couple of 15") and do not need more. My four little F12's are -3 dB at about 7 Hz in my room and put out enough to damage walls, furniture, and ears. Sometimes overkill just means "kill". And I think my current system is killer just as it is, so there!
Oh, I don't disagree that your system is killer, I am totally jealous. I would love the same thing, just substitute f18s for F12 because I DO subscribe to too much isn't enough, which, unfortunately, goes for my music listening levels.

My World Beating System!
Spoiler!
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post #37676 of 40624 Old 03-28-2019, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Funny that you are mentioning BR2049 opening scene as I mentioned to @tvuong , @toddct and @imureh about that scene and they said it's not that impressive. I was watching it last night while testing my new ATMOS speakers with a recently installed Denon X6500H and that scene is one of the best scenes to test subwoofers/ATMOS systems. It is scary as hell and the soundtrack is just AMAZING.
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Originally Posted by iamsabit313 View Post
Funny that you are mentioning BR2049 opening scene as I mentioned to @tvuong , @toddct and @imureh about that scene and they said it's not that impressive. I was watching it last night while testing my new ATMOS speakers with a recently installed Denon X6500H and that scene is one of the best scenes to test subwoofers/ATMOS systems. It is scary as hell and the soundtrack is just AMAZING.
Yep! Also Joe VS Luv fight scene in the last act is also outstanding in sound design and atmos implementation.
I will come by one day to check out the atmos setup.
Also, I need a sealed unit for the bedroom. Hmm, options and options![/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy56 View Post
Agreed. When it came out I took the opportunity to upgrade my copy of the original to 4k Blu ray. Watching both back to back is, well, exhilarating. Extraordinary movie making.
Ha! I just flat out stop denying and lying to myself after watching it over the weekend that nothing touches BR2049 !
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post #37677 of 40624 Old 03-28-2019, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by aa aw View Post
Those of you with f18s, what frequency are you crossing them over with your speakers? Mine is getting delivered on Friday but I've never used a subwoofer with my speakers before so I'm not really sure how to integrate everything.
I am crossing my F18's over closer to 60hz, but my main and center speakers have the capability to dig as deep as needed. If you are using smallish speakers, 80hz would be a better starting point.
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post #37678 of 40624 Old 03-28-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by elusiveis View Post
Thinking about joining the Rythmik family. Need input... for my space (see attached pic), (2) 12's now or (1) 15 now and another one down the road? I currently have a budget 10" subwoofer and it does an ok job. I've installed doors in between basement and storage area. So basement area is somewhat isolated. Thanks in advance.
A single 15" now, with a second one later would be an excellent strategy. Two 12"s would probably be enough in that space, but two 15"s down the road would assuredly get you where you need to be. Were you thinking ported or sealed?
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post #37679 of 40624 Old 03-28-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by banyar View Post
(2) FV18s PC 🙂
Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
It would be great if you could add a door at the stairs as well to seal the room.

It is not large, sans the open stairs, so a pair of 12's would probably do the trick. Especially if your current 10" is "ok". If you may move to a larger space later then a 15" may be a better choice.

IMO -- most here fall into the "anything worth doing is worth overdoing" camp but I need to save for retirement - Don
Top of stairs has a door, does that count? Do I calculate the entire sqft of basement 21x23 or just the listening area 17x13?

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Originally Posted by Eric HA View Post
A single 15" now, with a second one later would be an excellent strategy. Two 12"s would probably be enough in that space, but two 15"s down the road would assuredly get you where you need to be. Were you thinking ported or sealed?
This might be the direction I go. I'm going with ported.
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post #37680 of 40624 Old 03-28-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rajeshmahrn View Post
Recently I brought Rythmik LV12F subwoofer ....

Connected my subwoofer ( from my Denon AVR's subwoofer preout to LFE in subwoofer ) ....

But the output is very low .... (Subwoofer's volume set at 12'o clock )

When my mobile phone is connected to L&R of the subwoofer .... It plays pretty well .... But when connected to AVR it plays with very low output ...

I think the AVR is sending very low signal to pre out ....

Can I connect pre out to an headphone amp to amplify it and send it to subwoofer's line in ie., L & R ?
most avr very low output for music if watch movies will be high output
i think pre out low output if set master volume -20dB will be low output sub for music if set master volume 0dB will be high output sub but front speaker to much crazy loud that problem

so i have Onkyo A-9070 for stereo but i connected L&R of the subwoofer to Pre out port L&R for Onkyo A-9070
subwoofer will be low output i did set master volume 0dB then subwoofer will be high output but front speaker to much loud so i already disconnect Pre out port then connected L&R of the subwoofer to Line out port L&R for Onkyo A-9070 then subwoofer will be high output so i can set master volume -20dB for front speaker sound enough output
so i can adjust gain sub for 1'o clock or 2'o clock or 3'o clock so my sub amp is dayton spa250 250watts for kicker comp 15' car subwoofer so my set gain 1'o clock i did try 2'o clock or 3'o clock but abit distort due amp limit my kicker 15' sub is 8ohm so low watts will be 156watts so i don't have 4ohm sub so can't run 250watts
that why max gain 1'o clock only to get clean loud
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