Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1292 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #38731 of 40456 Old 05-25-2019, 07:20 PM
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Glad my wife, always been very understanding of my hobby. For subs and speakers position, and many upgrades over the years. Even when, I did not have a dictated room


Darth
I've been very blessed to have a wife who at least gets me, if not "it". I was a Hi-Fi addict when we met (way back in '82) and we used some of our wedding money to buy a Harman Kardon Integrated amp, and later some money she got from a great aunt passing to buy a Hi-Fi VHS. I was running a system with a Hafler circuit in the mid-80s so our "living room" always had at least four speakers in it. Once kids came along didn't really have the money to indulge my hobby, but she never stood in the way of me doing what we could.

Display: Vizio P55-E1l Pre-pro: Marantz 7703; Amps: Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1, H/K AVR 520 (direct in to amps); Sources: Sony UBP-X700; X-box 1 S; Technics 1200 Mk II; Win10 PC for digital; Phono Preamp: Emotiva XPS-1; Speakers - LR: Philharmonic BMR LR; Center: Selah Audio BMR-CC; Surrounds: Wharfedale Reva-2; Rear Surrounds: Wharfedale Diamond 220; Atmos: TF - Monoprice Alpha 8; TR - BIC VI-38; Subwoofers: dual Rythmik L22s
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post #38732 of 40456 Old 05-25-2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BluesDaddy56 View Post
I've been very blessed to have a wife who at least gets me, if not "it". I was a Hi-Fi addict when we met (way back in '82) and we used some of our wedding money to buy a Harman Kardon Integrated amp, and later some money she got from a great aunt passing to buy a Hi-Fi VHS. I was running a system with a Hafler circuit in the mid-80s so our "living room" always had at least four speakers in it. Once kids came along didn't really have the money to indulge my hobby, but she never stood in the way of me doing what we could.
Using some of the money, from your wedding
Your Wife is also a big keeper, this is priceless
And also like you, kids first. Hobby second or down the line. I apply this philosophy with my Cats now (my new felines kids, and could also be more costly), even if my kids all adults now.

Harman Kardon and Hafler, were serious gears back in those years.
Reading this book at this moment, more likely will take me months;
https://www.amazon.ca/Sound-Reproduc...r=8-1-fkmrnull
To digest everything. It is wrote by a Canadian sound scientific (Floyd E. Toole). Who work at the National Research Council of Canada (NRCC), over 30 years.
Until a Head Hunter from the Harman Group, came with an offer.
He became a vise president, under the condition it was for research only, and not sale
And to the surprise of the Harman Group, there sells went up with time. Due to His research, while working for them.


Darth

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post #38733 of 40456 Old 05-25-2019, 08:23 PM
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WAF Out of the window
Probably followed by your clothes going out the same window when she finds out.
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post #38734 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 07:35 AM
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Continuing my search for a crossover to connect one of my F12s to my PC w/active monitors, I have found:

Rolls SX45 - 12dB/oct slope

May fit the bill? Though a MiniDSP seems a better value, even if it is more complex and requires software to work. @MrGuru
My advice for an analog crossover has for many years the little dbx 223: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...3XS--dbx-223xs Mine is black and not rack-mount. Standard L-R crossover (24 dB/octave) with a goodly range of adjustment and balanced I/O. I have used it in balanced and single-ended configuration (with adapter cables from TRS to RCA). A little more money, but a solid unit and you just need to set the knobs. You can use the phase control on the sub for integration.

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post #38735 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 08:10 AM
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My advice for an analog crossover has for many years the little dbx 223: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...3XS--dbx-223xs Mine is black and not rack-mount. Standard L-R crossover (24 dB/octave) with a goodly range of adjustment and balanced I/O. I have used it in balanced and single-ended configuration (with adapter cables from TRS to RCA). A little more money, but a solid unit and you just need to set the knobs. You can use the phase control on the sub for integration.
Thanks. I have noticed quite a few rack mount units but the form factor and cost are hard to justify. If I'm going to make that much space available for this, I'll just put an AVR there instead. So it's probably between an AVR under the desk or a small unit that can sit near my preamp on the desk.

HT: Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings) | NAD T758 V3 | Buchardt S400 (2) | Emotiva E2 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
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post #38736 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 09:29 AM
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Don’t see the point of the Rolls SX45 for $95 when with the same money you can get a MiniDSP 2x4 which is 10 times more powerful than the Rolls in terms of features. Just my 2 cents.
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
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post #38737 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 10:22 AM
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Don’t see the point of the Rolls SX45 for $95 when with the same money you can get a MiniDSP 2x4 which is 10 times more powerful than the Rolls in terms of features. Just my 2 cents.
I would tend to agree. But then I'm at $200 for DAC/Preamp/XO which eats into AVR territory. I have my Denon X4000 sitting here because I haven't sold it yet, which would go for maybe $300. It's overkill - the amps and all of the HDMI inputs would be unused, but having XT32 could be nice. Though, for near-field use, you don't really need Audyssey except in the modal range, and I can't use the app with this AVR. It's also big and would probably go under the desk rather than on top.

So I either sell the X4000 or the Micca OriGen G2.

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post #38738 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Rythmik achieves good output without crazy wattage requirements so even their biggest baddest subs can run full tilt on a single home 15A circuit.

It shouldn't be hard to beat the SB3000 in sound with a Rythmik. I agree with Enrico that the L22 is probably the closest in output and extension, is cheaper, and will have a more detailed sound. L22 does 99.6dB at 20Hz and is -3dB at 18Hz.
What about this model? Does anyone have any experience with "E15HP2 with HX1000XLR3 Hypex amplifier" I just now noticed this option for the
first time. Somehow I missed it before. What is the power of that amp? Is it a Class D 1000 watt? It's a $200 upgrade from the H600PEQ3 amp the E15HP and F15HP normally come with.
The E model is even slightly smaller than the F which I may be able to squeak by as if it's the SVS SB2000 my wife actually saw in a store and said she could live with in this particular area.

I'll say it just looked smaller in that giant store. She'll get over it in no time.
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post #38739 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 03:14 PM
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What about this model? Does anyone have any experience with "E15HP2 with HX1000XLR3 Hypex amplifier" I just now noticed this option for the
first time. Somehow I missed it before. What is the power of that amp? Is it a Class D 1000 watt? It's a $200 upgrade from the H600PEQ3 amp the E15HP and F15HP normally come with.
The E model is even slightly smaller than the F which I may be able to squeak by as if it's the SVS SB2000 my wife actually saw in a store and said she could live with in this particular area.

I'll say it just looked smaller in that giant store. She'll get over it in no time.
I have one, and I love it! My wife didn't want the F18 due to it's size, so we compromised on the E15HP2 with the idea of eventually purchasing a second one in a couple of years. I went with the newer version for the extra headroom. It matches perfectly with my speakers and definitely comes alive when it needs to during HT use. I also paid extra for the black gloss.

Depending on our future setup, I'm either going to get a second one and cover with birch for two end tables, or sell my current one and go with two FV15HPs up front for more TR.
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post #38740 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 03:59 PM
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While I am not sure. The way I read his post, you would need two 20 amp circuits for dual subs.
That said, I could be completely be on left field on this one


Darth
Yep, two 20 amp lines for the 4KW amplifier is the only way I could think to do it, besides popping in a 30 amp line...which would still limit current to the two subs.
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post #38741 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 05:30 PM
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While I am not sure. The way I read his post, you would need two 20 amp circuits for dual subs.
That said, I could be completely be on left field on this one

Darth
Typical usage will easily allow operation of 4 SubMersive HP units on a single, dedicated 20A breaker. By this I mean a system with 2xHP+ amplified units with each driving an HP-Slave unit; 4 cabinets total, 8 x 15" woofers, and actually a rather common configuration our customers arrive at directly or through a couple upgrades.

Circuit breakers have a duration related behavior. This is rather useful in homes as it might otherwise be tricky to get garbage disposals to initially turn on, or toasters to not trip breakers when turned on. Ultimately the intended job of a circuit breaker is to keep over current conditions from overheating wires in the power system, and to interrupt fault conditions (ie hot shorted to neutral or other). Wires don't heat up instantly, so immediate, brick wall protection has no benefit.

Standard household breakers can pass 1.5-10x their trip current for short a duration. The shorter the duration, the more it can pass. Considering it's dissipated power which heats things up, this makes sense, as power requires duration, as a Voltage burst 2x longer but the same intensity results in 2x the power dissipated.

Common figures used for power requirements use 1/3rd to 1/6th draw from rated audio power, particularly if we exclude subwoofers. If we were only powering signals above 1kHz in an active system, we might load up to 1/6-1/20th the power draw from the rated audio power. For subwoofers that can range from 1/4 to as much as 1/2 rated power if pushed hard into limiters, other protections, or hard clipping.

Of course the amplifier type has to be considered, as class AB amplifiers are much less efficient, and plenty of class D amplifiers are 70-80% efficient, while the 4000W amplifier I use is closer to 90% efficiency. As an example, a 2000W amplifier that is 50% efficient could draw a maximum of 4000W, while an 80% efficient equivalent could draw a maximum of 2500W, while a 90% efficient amplifier could draw a maximum of ~2220W.

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post #38742 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 05:44 PM
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Yep, two 20 amp lines for the 4KW amplifier is the only way I could think to do it, besides popping in a 30 amp line...which would still limit current to the two subs.
Well I guess, we were both wrong according to the quote below.
That said, Thank you for your input. It was an interesting conversation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Typical usage will easily allow operation of 4 SubMersive HP units on a single, dedicated 20A breaker. By this I mean a system with 2xHP+ amplified units with each driving an HP-Slave unit; 4 cabinets total, 8 x 15" woofers, and actually a rather common configuration our customers arrive at directly or through a couple upgrades.

Circuit breakers have a duration related behavior. This is rather useful in homes as it might otherwise be tricky to get garbage disposals to initially turn on, or toasters to not trip breakers when turned on. Ultimately the intended job of a circuit breaker is to keep over current conditions from overheating wires in the power system, and to interrupt fault conditions (ie hot shorted to neutral or other). Wires don't heat up instantly, so immediate, brick wall protection has no benefit.

Standard household breakers can pass 1.5-10x their trip current for short a duration. The shorter the duration, the more it can pass. Considering it's dissipated power which heats things up, this makes sense, as power requires duration, as a Voltage burst 2x longer but the same intensity results in 2x the power dissipated.

Common figures used for power requirements use 1/3rd to 1/6th draw from rated audio power, particularly if we exclude subwoofers. If we were only powering signals above 1kHz in an active system, we might load up to 1/6-1/20th the power draw from the rated audio power. For subwoofers that can range from 1/4 to as much as 1/2 rated power if pushed hard into limiters, other protections, or hard clipping.

Of course the amplifier type has to be considered, as class AB amplifiers are much less efficient, and plenty of class D amplifiers are 70-80% efficient, while the 4000W amplifier I use is closer to 90% efficiency. As an example, a 2000W amplifier that is 50% efficient could draw a maximum of 4000W, while an 80% efficient equivalent could draw a maximum of 2500W, while a 90% efficient amplifier could draw a maximum of ~2220W.
Thanks for this quick lesson on circuit breaker, we always learn new stuff in this Hobby

I know now for sure, I will be fine with a single 20 amp circuit. For my two future FV18, since they are only 900 watts each.
Just have to built a properly rated power cord with the proper plugs, for a 20 amp circuit.


Darth
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post #38743 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 09:51 PM
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Well I guess, we were both wrong according to the quote below.
That said, Thank you for your input. It was an interesting conversation



Thanks for this quick lesson on circuit breaker, we always learn new stuff in this Hobby

I know now for sure, I will be fine with a single 20 amp circuit. For my two future FV18, since they are only 900 watts each.
Just have to built a properly rated power cord with the proper plugs, for a 20 amp circuit.


Darth

I've run 4 very powerful subs off of one 20amp circuit and it only ever tripped the circuit breaker when I went above reference volume. I had 2 SB16's and 2 Fathom F113's going full tilt non-stop with no problems.


Greg
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post #38744 of 40456 Old 05-26-2019, 10:06 PM
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I've run 4 very powerful subs off of one 20amp circuit and it only ever tripped the circuit breaker when I went above reference volume. I had 2 SB16's and 2 Fathom F113's going full tilt non-stop with no problems.


Greg
I agree. I run everything off one 15 amp line(with a 20 amp outlet, shhh, don't tell anyone), and I play music dangerously loud. I've never tripped my circuit breaker, ever, although when I had 4 SVS sb12-NSD, I would get flickering when playing loudly enough to trip the SVS protection circuitry. I now have two F18 that should, in theory, have similar maximum draw, but they don't flicker my lights nearly as much as the SVS did, even when I know (from the LED in back) that I am pushing the Rythmiks hard.
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post #38745 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 07:13 AM
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I have one, and I love it! My wife didn't want the F18 due to it's size, so we compromised on the E15HP2 with the idea of eventually purchasing a second one in a couple of years. I went with the newer version for the extra headroom. It matches perfectly with my speakers and definitely comes alive when it needs to during HT use. I also paid extra for the black gloss.

Depending on our future setup, I'm either going to get a second one and cover with birch for two end tables, or sell my current one and go with two FV15HPs up front for more TR.
Do you know the specs on that amp and exactly how it differs from the amp offered in the E15HP? The E15HP2 is $200 more. Is it worth the extra 200 and what is the power difference?
Are there differences other than just power rating?

enricoclaudio maybe you could offer some insight....
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post #38746 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 07:25 AM
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Do you know the specs on that amp and exactly how it differs from the amp offered in the E15HP? The E15HP2 is $200 more. Is it worth the extra 200 and what is the power difference?
Are there differences other than just power rating?

enricoclaudio maybe you could offer some insight....
In the description:

Quote:
E15HP2 is the same as E15 except with the HX1000XLR3 amplifier to offer 1.5db more output.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/E15.html

So, it's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. The Official AVSforum Rule is to buy the biggest subwoofer you can fit/afford, and then buy another when you can.

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post #38747 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 07:39 AM
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In the description:


http://www.rythmikaudio.com/E15.html

So, it's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. The Official AVSforum Rule is to buy the biggest subwoofer you can fit/afford, and then buy another when you can.
I see all that but I still don't see the specs on the HX1000XLR3 Hypex amplifier.

I agree with buy the biggest..... This will be my first Rythmik if I decide to go with it. This is just a mini system I'm going to start with. I have my eye on two G25HP's if I end up
believing in Rythmik and thinking that's my best option, for my main system.
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post #38748 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 08:00 AM
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I see all that but I still don't see the specs on the HX1000XLR3 Hypex amplifier.

I agree with buy the biggest..... This will be my first Rythmik if I decide to go with it. This is just a mini system I'm going to start with. I have my eye on two G25HP's if I end up
believing in Rythmik and thinking that's my best option, for my main system.
It's the same amp used in the 18 inch models, 900 watts vs 600.
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post #38749 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 08:43 AM
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It's the same amp used in the 18 inch models, 900 watts vs 600.
Ok, I see it now. Thanks! This model (E15HP2) has all the same controls including the high pass rumble filter?

So the G25HP uses two of those amps - one for each driver or is there an actual single amp model HX2000XLR3?
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Typical usage will easily allow operation of 4 SubMersive HP units on a single, dedicated 20A breaker. By this I mean a system with 2xHP+ amplified units with each driving an HP-Slave unit; 4 cabinets total, 8 x 15" woofers, and actually a rather common configuration our customers arrive at directly or through a couple upgrades.

Circuit breakers have a duration related behavior. This is rather useful in homes as it might otherwise be tricky to get garbage disposals to initially turn on, or toasters to not trip breakers when turned on. Ultimately the intended job of a circuit breaker is to keep over current conditions from overheating wires in the power system, and to interrupt fault conditions (ie hot shorted to neutral or other). Wires don't heat up instantly, so immediate, brick wall protection has no benefit.

Standard household breakers can pass 1.5-10x their trip current for short a duration. The shorter the duration, the more it can pass. Considering it's dissipated power which heats things up, this makes sense, as power requires duration, as a Voltage burst 2x longer but the same intensity results in 2x the power dissipated.

Common figures used for power requirements use 1/3rd to 1/6th draw from rated audio power, particularly if we exclude subwoofers. If we were only powering signals above 1kHz in an active system, we might load up to 1/6-1/20th the power draw from the rated audio power. For subwoofers that can range from 1/4 to as much as 1/2 rated power if pushed hard into limiters, other protections, or hard clipping.

Of course the amplifier type has to be considered, as class AB amplifiers are much less efficient, and plenty of class D amplifiers are 70-80% efficient, while the 4000W amplifier I use is closer to 90% efficiency. As an example, a 2000W amplifier that is 50% efficient could draw a maximum of 4000W, while an 80% efficient equivalent could draw a maximum of 2500W, while a 90% efficient amplifier could draw a maximum of ~2220W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Well I guess, we were both wrong according to the quote below.
That said, Thank you for your input. It was an interesting conversation

Darth
Ah, thanks a bunch! I fell into the fallacy of thinking that the 4KW amp was being used as a sustained draw vs an instanously draw. I should have known better if I thought it through more thoroughly.
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post #38751 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
Ok, I see it now. Thanks! This model (E15HP2) has all the same controls including the high pass rumble filter?

So the G25HP uses two of those amps - one for each driver or is there an actual single amp model HX2000XLR3?
The G25HP uses a single HX2000XLR3 amp which is literally 2 x HX1000XLR3 amps in one plate. The HX1000XLR3 amp uses a single 900 watts Hypex amp module while the HX2000XLR3 amp uses 2 x 900 watts Hypex amp modules.

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post #38752 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 10:57 AM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
Do you know the specs on that amp and exactly how it differs from the amp offered in the E15HP? The E15HP2 is $200 more. Is it worth the extra 200 and what is the power difference?
Are there differences other than just power rating?

enricoclaudio maybe you could offer some insight....
From what I understand, at normal listening levels, there won't be a difference, but when you want to let it rip during a movie or concert Blu-Ray, it will make a real difference for those scenes that have dynamic lows. I haven't heard the other to compare with, but I do listen at really high volumes, and I didn't want to wonder what I might be missing. Of course, none of this would have been a problem if the F18 didn't frighten my wife so much.
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post #38753 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 03:16 PM
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[quote The Official AVSforum Rule is to buy the biggest subwoofer you can fit/afford, and then buy another when you can.[/quote]

AVS forum rule beats WAF!! I started out last week considering an SB2000 and then an F12 and now this week I'm going to place an order for an E15HP2. If I can sneak a photo of the look on her face when she comes in from work, while I'm ducking her car keys, I'll post it. HAHA, just kidding, she'll definitely have a brief HOLY ***** Brian!! moment, but will quickly get over it. She's used to my antics.

This is in our very small living room but we're moving soon and this setup will all be in our bedroom in the next house. The system I'm going to build for the next house will be starting from scratch. I mean I need every single thing an HT/music system would need. I'll be coming here for help, because I'm not very knowledgeable yet. Next setup has no WAF, she's already conceded due to some bartering.
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post #38754 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
[quote The Official AVSforum Rule is to buy the biggest subwoofer you can fit/afford, and then buy another when you can.


The system I'm going to build for the next house will be starting from scratch. I mean I need every single thing an HT/music system would need. I'll be coming here for help, because I'm not very knowledgeable yet. Next setup has no WAF, she's already conceded due to some bartering. [/QUOTE]

Well be in the same boat lol I'm currently working on plans to built a HT in my backyard since I live in So Cal and our grass dies every summer there will be no need no more and will be replaced by a dedicated HT/Gameroom.

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post #38755 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I agree. I run everything off one 15 amp line(with a 20 amp outlet, shhh, don't tell anyone), and I play music dangerously loud. I've never tripped my circuit breaker, ever, although when I had 4 SVS sb12-NSD, I would get flickering when playing loudly enough to trip the SVS protection circuitry. I now have two F18 that should, in theory, have similar maximum draw, but they don't flicker my lights nearly as much as the SVS did, even when I know (from the LED in back) that I am pushing the Rythmiks hard.
Thanks, nice info to share

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post #38756 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
In the description:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/E15.html

So, it's up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. The Official AVSforum Rule is to buy the biggest subwoofer you can fit/afford, and then buy another when you can.
Big +1

The reason many members, bought a lower sub or dual. Only to replace it/them later.
Learning from that mistake, myself included. We pass on this word of wisdom, so others avoid this mistake.
Since we have learn the hard way

Months ago, a member said "Buy once, and Cry once". And thought it was a good way to say this philosophy, when it come to Audio/Video toys.
Much cheaper in the long run, and also like to say, when it come to save for a second sub. A year can go by, very fast


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post #38757 of 40456 Old 05-27-2019, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadJRT View Post
The Official AVSforum Rule is to buy the biggest subwoofer you can fit/afford, and then buy another when you can.

AVS forum rule beats WAF!! I started out last week considering an SB2000 and then an F12 and now this week I'm going to place an order for an E15HP2. If I can sneak a photo of the look on her face when she comes in from work, while I'm ducking her car keys, I'll post it. HAHA, just kidding, she'll definitely have a brief HOLY ***** Brian!! moment, but will quickly get over it. She's used to my antics.

This is in our very small living room but we're moving soon and this setup will all be in our bedroom in the next house. The system I'm going to build for the next house will be starting from scratch. I mean I need every single thing an HT/music system would need. I'll be coming here for help, because I'm not very knowledgeable yet. Next setup has no WAF, she's already conceded due to some bartering.
Oh so recognisable. I started looking out for a sub (don't have one) almost a year ago.

Went from wanting the L12, to F12, to E15, to E15HP2. Now I'm fixed on the F18 but I feel that G25HP somewhere in the back of my mind
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post #38758 of 40456 Old 05-28-2019, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by muscles View Post
I would say that is accurate. The JL Audio has decent output and sound quality, where it really shines is its diminutive size given it's output. The SB16 is a much better deal for the money and it was better for movies, the low end was just a lot stronger. The JL was a bit heavier, and the fit and finish were superb.



Greg


I have noted a few cases where folks with fairly high end speakers have tried the SB16s and have ended up with the JLs due to musical performance. Noting that Rhythmic can do better musically says something. Rel is brand that has high marks for music but has some quirks to deal with and likely not as good for movies but that is only a guess. I have heard twin JL F212s which were quite impressive for music, IMO.


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post #38759 of 40456 Old 05-28-2019, 08:36 AM
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Ah, they forget about it. Lol. The look on my wife’s face when she spotted my first FV18 was priceless.
okay... this made me laugh out loud! Same thing happened here... when my wife saw 'her' new dual FV18 subs (still boxed and sitting in the garage), she was literally speechless.... but she's the one who said "just get what you want... I don't want you to regret not doing this the way you want"... those are words I doubt she'll utter again.... it was a couple of months before she dared ask what I spent...
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post #38760 of 40456 Old 05-28-2019, 08:48 AM
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I know there is an 11% rule when gain matching a pair of subs. However, what would be proper mic placement for gain matching the FV25HPs? In between the two cones if laying on side and, if so, how far away? Thanks Much! - Paul

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