Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1463 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #43861 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
Well, now I know what these things are capable of - at least some what. I've had a G25 for a year, just added a second two weeks ago. I ran Audyssey but have always had trouble w/ REW. After spending HOURS trying to get it work, I listened to @muscles and @enricoclaudio and got a mac to use...I might return it, but maybe not after using that thing. REW was totally hiccup free. Within 10 mins, my sweeps were done. Now I just had to connect the Mini DSP and get that situated. I was clueless, so needed Gregs @muscles ) help setting it up...dudes a genius. I may still do some tweaking, but attached pics show the before and after (or after and before - purple line is new graph). Because I spent so long on this, I haven't been able to do a ton of testing - but WOW what a difference. Literally night and day. I have significantly better bass and very low MV. I just watched a movie at -30 MV w/ the Mini DSP gain at -2 and the bass could still be felt. I love it.



Only issue we had - and I spent 4 hours troubleshooting this....when I ran the subs directly into the Marantz 8805 via XLR, Audyssey set the trims at -12. When I went into level test them, I swear I could hear/feel them. After running the Mini DSP + REW and then Audyssey I noticed the bass was significantly weaker. So, I went to test levels, and I could BARELY hear/feel them. The trim for "one" sub was now -6 but it felt much weaker. Enrico was stumped, as was Greg. Nobody had an answer. Finally, I just cranked the volume knob on the subs and tested tones at reference - ut read at 85db. Perfect. So I guess my question - have any of you experienced any gain attenuation when using Mini DSP? I had to turn the volume knobs from 11am to about 3pm. Wondering if the XLR to RCA adapters I'm using are causing a loss too? Either way, its fixed now! Just so odd that during Audysseys initial subwoofer test (keep the icon in the green area) it picked them up and said they were loud. Then during content and test tones they were inaudible. Oh well!



Couldn't be happier and I now realize duals were 100000% overkill for my room. However, I don't need to crank the MV as high now, as the room is filled w/ cleaner, deeper and tighter bass.
How did you remove the 50hz and 100 Hz dips?

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post #43862 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 09:35 AM
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After testing the FV15HP for a few days, I have finally come to several conclusions.
  • In comparison to the PSA V1512, the best way to describe the FV15HP is like a V1512 with 6 Hz additional extension (in one-port mode) and significantly more adjustability. It is apparent that I benefit from very little room gain where I have the subs located and both subs are 3 dB down at the published ground plane frequencies.
  • The sound signatures of the subs are similar. I would say the FV15HP seems a bit heavier, even in some music, owing to its greater extension. The V1512 may be slightly tighter in the mid-bass region, but I have only used low damping for the FV15HP thus far, and the difference may be negligible if I switch to mid or high damping.
  • The footprints of the two subs are effectively identical and aesthetics are similar as well.
I am pleased with the purchase, as the FV15HP is providing me with the strong aspects of my previous sub, along with the extension I was missing. In most content, the difference between the subs is not significant, but in scenes with ULF, such as the Olympus Has Fallen White House attack scene, the different in TR is obvious.
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post #43863 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
After testing the FV15HP for a few days, I have finally come to several conclusions.
  • In comparison to the PSA V1512, the best way to describe the FV15HP is like a V1512 with 6 Hz additional extension (in one-port mode) and significantly more adjustability. It is apparent that I benefit from very little room gain where I have the subs located and both subs are 3 dB down at the published ground plane frequencies.
  • The sounds signatures of the subs are similar. I would say the FV15HP seems a bit heavier, even in some music, owing to its greater extension. The V1512 may be slightly tighter in the mid-bass region, but I have only used low damping for the FV15HP thus far, and the difference may be negligible if I switch to mid or high damping.
  • The footprints of the two subs are effectively identical and aesthetics are similar as well.
I am pleased with the purchase, as the FV15HP is providing me with the strong aspects of my previous sub, along with the extension I was missing. In most content, the difference between the subs is not significant, but in scenes with ULF, such as the Olympus Has Fallen White House attack scene, the different in TR is obvious.
Change to High damping, listen to music and I'm pretty sure you would come back with a much different history regarding which one is tighter
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post #43864 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Change to High damping, listen to music and I'm pretty sure you would come back with a much different history regarding which one is tighter

Definitely possible, which is why I qualified the statement. There wouldn't be any need to rerun Audyssey after changing damping modes, correct? Since I prefer moderation, I think I will drop down to mid damping tonight.
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post #43865 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
Definitely possible, which is why I qualified the statement. There wouldn't be any need to rerun Audyssey after changing damping modes, correct? Since I prefer moderation, I think I will drop down to mid damping tonight.
No need to recal. I’d go from low to high as it will be a more drastic difference. Then go back to low for a bit then to medium. Medium is right in the middle but I generally keep mine on high damping for everything.
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post #43866 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:09 AM
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Congrats, looks great! Tip: click on the camera icon at the top left corner of the graph to save a picture of the graph. You don't have to take a photo of the screen with your cell phone.
Yeah, the graph was run on my mac and i grabbed a pic from phone to send via text to a friend after the sweep. so i just had that file saved here.

Speakers: JTR 212RTs - JTR 210RM - JTR 110HTs (x4)
Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik G25HPSE
Audio Gear: Marantz 8805 - Krell Chorus 5200 + D-Sonic M3a-800S - BS Node 2i - Oppo 203
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post #43867 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:11 AM
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How did you remove the 50hz and 100 Hz dips?

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Gosh, I did so much work this weekend, I almost don't remember. It could have been a phase issue - I had to add delay (5ms and 2ms) to each sub. That cleaned it up alot. @muscles will remember, hes the mastermind behind this LOL

Speakers: JTR 212RTs - JTR 210RM - JTR 110HTs (x4)
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post #43868 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
After testing the FV15HP for a few days, I have finally come to several conclusions.

In comparison to the PSA V1512, the best way to describe the FV15HP is like a V1512 with 6 Hz additional extension (in one-port mode)
Yeah, change to hi damping not only gain tighter sound but you probably gain an additional 2-3Hz extension over low damping. No need to recal if you started with low 12hz mode, just flip that switch, remeasure with rew and listen.
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post #43869 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Yeah, change to hi damping not only gain tighter sound but you probably gain an additional 2-3Hz extension over low damping. No need to recal if you started with low 12hz mode, just flip that switch, remeasure with rew and listen.

Yes, I calibrated in the one-port setting. I remember bear attached some sweeps showing roughly 2 dB greater output in low damping compared to high. Do I need to increase sub trim by 2 dB to level match high damping to low?
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post #43870 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 10:37 AM
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^^ Nah, just flip that damping switch, listen and add sub trim if needed.
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post #43871 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JD23 View Post
Yes, I calibrated in the one-port setting. I remember bear attached some sweeps showing roughly 2 dB greater output in low damping compared to high. Do I need to increase sub trim by 2 dB to level match high damping to low?
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Nah, just flip that damping switch, listen and add sub trim if needed.
I noticed the same +2dB going from high to low damping, when I was measuring with REW my F15/D15 subs this weekend.
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post #43872 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BhootZ View Post
How did you remove the 50hz and 100 Hz dips?

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Just had to time align his subs, he has a weird shaped room and the subs are not put in symmetrical locations. So I added a delay to improve the response. Little bit of trial and error and it was done. His response was pretty flat with no need to PEQ, lots of headroom for BEQ


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post #43873 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:13 PM
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The design choices that Tekton makes are, IMO, just poor for a number of reasons. I'm not a speaker designer, but there are good reasons why no one else uses the bizarre design choices Tekton does. Things like a 2 way speaker with a giant woofer and a small tweeter.....you end up with poor directivity match. Woofers spread way apart for terrible off axis performance. Multiple tweeters that produce all kinds of off axis cancellation. Just saying, their designs principles are bad from a basic loudspeaker design standpoint, and the measured performance shows this in the models I've seen tested. Sure, the average person that hasn't heard exceptionally well designed speakers might like them, but no way they would stand up in a well conducted, level matched listening test to your KEF's. Just my opinion, but its based on really solid science of loudspeaker design and how measured performance affects subjective sound quality.

If you wanted to consider a different option from your KEF's in terms of speakers with a home theater focus, perhaps demo some JTR? How far do you sit from the speakers and what is your max listening level? If you are a good distance away and listen close to reference they might be worth a look. But for moderate volumes I think the KEF are going to hard to beat unless a wider dispersion design like Revel appeals to you more.

I'm not trying to find alternatives to my Kefs, I'm just very curious about the Tektons. Mainly the newer, larger designs. Many people have disparaged the design, and most of them "get it" after listening. They are known to have one of the most natural-sounding, non-fatiguing midranges in all of speakerdom (most of the tweeters in the larger designs are actually operating as one or two large, extremely low-mass midranges). Eric Alexander has been around speaker design for decades at several companies, Tekton is just the first speaker company he personally owns. He has numerous patents on his designs. This is not his first rodeo. I actually applaud the different thinking he has employed, as do the vast majority of his customers. As I said before, I'm satisfied that they are what they say they are, I'm just not sure I would actually prefer them to my Kefs. The only other speaker manufacturers that interest me at all are Focal and possibly Revel.
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post #43874 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:17 PM
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If you want dead neutrality (lack of coloration added to music), Buchardt needs to be on your list as well.

I'll say this about Tektons using the tweeter array, just based on what I have seen. The response is very limited in directivity, so it's crucial that you sit in just the right place.
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post #43875 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:36 PM
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If you want dead neutrality (lack of coloration added to music), Buchardt needs to be on your list as well.

I'll say this about Tektons using the tweeter array, just based on what I have seen. The response is very limited in directivity, so it's crucial that you sit in just the right place.

I'd add Ascend Acoustics to that list, as well.

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post #43876 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:40 PM
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I'd add Ascend Acoustics to that list, as well.

Their lower level stuff did not get a great review over on ASR.

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post #43877 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 12:48 PM
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If you want dead neutrality (lack of coloration added to music), Buchardt needs to be on your list as well.

I'll say this about Tektons using the tweeter array, just based on what I have seen. The response is very limited in directivity, so it's crucial that you sit in just the right place.

This was an issue with early designs but has been rectified for several years now. They are still more directional than Kef's Uni-Q, though, I'll grant you that. But with a dedicated room that's not a huge concern, I'll be listening solo most of the time anyway.



I've only recently learned of Buchardt and they do seem to have quite a following. Just came out with some new powered floor-standers, too. I don't doubt that they sound good but I don't think they're a good choice for a 9.1.6 system, at least not for me.
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post #43878 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 01:21 PM
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I've only recently learned of Buchardt and they do seem to have quite a following. Just came out with some new powered floor-standers, too. I don't doubt that they sound good but I don't think they're a good choice for a 9.1.6 system, at least not for me.
The S400 are my front L and R in my (in progress) 9.2.4 system. Too expensive to put them all around, but that's not necessary.
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post #43879 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 01:28 PM
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Their lower level stuff did not get a great review over on ASR.

ASR, IMO, of dubious value.



I've got a couple of pairs of their lower level stuff (HTM200's) being used for ATMOS height speakers. Also was using a pair as surrounds until I moved my Sierra 2's to surround duty when I got the RAAL Towers for the front. Anyways, the HTM's were really good, IMO, particularly considering the price point.

LG OLED65E6P, Anthem MRX720, Rogue Atlas Magnum II, UPA7, Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with RAAL, Luna Duo center, Sierra 2 surrounds, and HTM200SE front & rear heights, Rythmik E15HPx2, miniDSP, VPI Classic 1+ (VTA Tower, 3D arm), VAS NOVA and Soundsmith Paua cartridges, Manley Chinook, Oppo 103D, Oppo 203. Audio Sensibility and Blue Jeans cabling, Symposium & Isoacoustics isolation products
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post #43880 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 01:32 PM
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Their lower level stuff did not get a great review over on ASR.
Take any ASR review with a grain of salt. Even that our L12 came out very well from his review, I do recommend listening in your room instead of purchasing based technical reviews like the ones from ASR. In fact, the Buchardt S400 came back very bad from ASR review too and I haven't read a single bad comment from S400s current owners.

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Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik G22 (x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony 77A9G OLED |
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post #43881 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 01:34 PM
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The S400 are my front L and R in my (in progress) 9.2.4 system. Too expensive to put them all around, but that's not necessary.

Nice! Are you just going to use another one for the center or go phantom? What about your heights?



One huge plus with my current Kefs over the Tektons is that I have an entire suite of speakers using the same driver. It would be hard to match that kind speaker-to-speaker consistency with any other manufacturer.
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post #43882 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 01:43 PM
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I noticed the same +2dB going from high to low damping, when I was measuring with REW my F15/D15 subs this weekend.
Low damping will give you better plots with increased +2db. But high damping has more gradual roll-off as shown in your plot. That is why most subwoofer manufacturers use "low damping" alignment because it really looks better on plot. But there is a value for high damping with deep extension (ie lower corner frequency). One can hear more agile bass.

This low damping trick not only applies to subwoofers, it also applies to front speakers. It is more pertinent if someone wants to run their front speakers full range because once low damping roll-off is in the system, if one just adds a subwoofer without bass management that slight boomy bass is still there. The only way to "undo" is to use HPF in bass management to attenuate the low damping characteristics.
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post #43883 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 01:55 PM
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Nice! Are you just going to use another one for the center or go phantom? What about your heights?

One huge plus with my current Kefs over the Tektons is that I have an entire suite of speakers using the same driver. It would be hard to match that kind speaker-to-speaker consistency with any other manufacturer.
Yep, that is definitely my current challenge with front speakers like this, but I think I can find speakers to use as surrounds that are good enough. Currently it's between HSU HB-1 MK2, Chane A1.5, and Infinity R162. Phantom center is good enough for me.
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post #43884 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Yep, that is definitely my current challenge with front speakers like this, but I think I can find speakers to use as surrounds that are good enough. Currently it's between HSU HB-1 MK2, Chane A1.5, and Infinity R162. Phantom center is good enough for me.

You're just going to have demo each of those to see which ones are most cohesive with your mains or similarly voiced. But as chores go at least that's a fun one. I'm not familiar with the Infinity's but I hear good things about the others.
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post #43885 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 02:12 PM
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I'd add Ascend Acoustics to that list, as well.
I see myself trying AA speakers at some point. Maybe a center channel upgrade a couple years from now
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post #43886 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 05:32 PM
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I posted this on REW multiple sub thread, but might get quicker reply here.

I switched sub placement for one of my two subs. They used to be at the 1/4 and about 3/4 position near the back of the room. Now they’ll be diagonal and both be about 1/4 distance. Before, I had both subs at their default phase with a 5ms delay on the sub I just moved.

I never understood how to do the phasing alignment using REW. I just gain-matched them, then ran a lot of sweeps with different delays until I narrowed it down to what I thought looked the best, and finally went to the filters. Any advice on what phase setting I should start at (180 for back wall?) or how to tell they are in phase?

Also, should I run sweeps with my LCR to align with them before calibrating with ARC?

I appreciate the help.

Anthem MRX1120, AC Infinity Aircom T8 and S7, Panamax 5300-PM
Speakers (KEF): R700, R200C, SR/SL - Q150
Subs: Rythmik E15HP2 (x2) w/ miniDSP 2x4 HD
TV: LG 65C9AUA(OLED), Devices: Apple TV 4K, StreamSmart Pro, Xbox One, and Xbox 360

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post #43887 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Take any ASR review with a grain of salt. Even that our L12 came out very well from his review, I do recommend listening in your room instead of purchasing based technical reviews like the ones from ASR. In fact, the Buchardt S400 came back very bad from ASR review too and I haven't read a single bad comment from S400s current owners.
I wouldn't call the review being very bad though:

Quote:
Whenever I get equipment from companies, I hold my breath as I measure them, hoping hard that they do well. Here, the Buchardt objectively performs reasonably well.
...
EDIT: on further reflection, I think I did not do a good job of highlighting what the Buchardt S400 does well. And that is excellence in a lot of the objective measurements. Indeed its performance there is better than some speakers I have liked and recommended! As usual, objective data is much more reliable than any subjective impressions I have of a speaker. So I would say put the S400 on your target list of speakers to evaluate as it certainly passes the bar of being objectively good.
But I do agree with your recommendation in listening in your room. Also, if hooked up to a fairly decent AVR, chances are, room correction (Audyssey, Dirac, etc.) will correct the peaks and dips.
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post #43888 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
I never understood how to do the phasing alignment using REW. I just gain-matched them, then ran a lot of sweeps with different delays until I narrowed it down to what I thought looked the best, and finally went to the filters. Any advice on what phase setting I should start at (180 for back wall?) or how to tell they are in phase?

Also, should I run sweeps with my LCR to align with them before calibrating with ARC?

I appreciate the help.
First, make sure you are using the latest beta version of REW. After removing all delays from the subs and with the phase dial on the subs set to 0, run a sub only sweep of each sub with a timing reference. Then, go to the all SPL tab and under the Controls, open Alignment tool. You can then use the slider to "virtually" try all possible delay settings to find the best one. Then, set the delay on the MiniDSP for that sub channel.

Run the LCR sweeps after you finish your calibration with ARC to fine tune the distances or delays to get the best response at the crossover frequency.
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Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
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Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, DIYSG Volt-6 Surrounds
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post #43889 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks0 View Post
First, make sure you are using the latest beta version of REW. After removing all delays from the subs and with the phase dial on the subs set to 0, run a sub only sweep of each sub with a timing reference. Then, go to the all SPL tab and under the Controls, open Alignment tool. You can then use the slider to "virtually" try all possible delay settings to find the best one. Then, set the delay on the MiniDSP for that sub channel.

Run the LCR sweeps after you finish your calibration with ARC to fine tune the distances or delays to get the best response at the crossover frequency.
Thank you. I updated last night. Should I try to invert the rear sub at any point before simulating to see if it’s a better reasponse?

Anthem MRX1120, AC Infinity Aircom T8 and S7, Panamax 5300-PM
Speakers (KEF): R700, R200C, SR/SL - Q150
Subs: Rythmik E15HP2 (x2) w/ miniDSP 2x4 HD
TV: LG 65C9AUA(OLED), Devices: Apple TV 4K, StreamSmart Pro, Xbox One, and Xbox 360

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post #43890 of 44721 Old 06-01-2020, 06:28 PM
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Spent all weekend rotating the seating 90 degrees to see how everything would measure. This puts the TV on the narrow wall and leaves about 10 feet behind the seating. This gives a lot of flexibility for moving the seats forward and back to find the sweet spot as well as making it possible to go from 5.1 to 7.1. The total space with all doors shut is 5200 cu/ft, but most of the doors are generally left open.

After tweaking the MLP location and optimizing sub placement, I ended up with the following:

Sub 1 has a narrow but deep dip at 44 hz (-20 db) with the largest peak at 20 hz (+11 db).

Sub 2 has a very narrow null at 30 hz and a single very narrow dip at 35 hz (-15 db). Similar to sub 1, sub 2 has a LOT of gain around 20 hz with a large peak at 18 hz (+21 db).

After time alignment, the native combined response has 2 shallow dips at 14 hz (-9 db) and 30 hz (-6 db). As expected, the largest peak is at 18.5 hz (+13 db) with another small peak at 41 hz (+5 db).

I am really jealous of the guys that have great rooms where the native response is really smooth, but after letting REW auto EQ do its magic, I get the attached result which is a definite improvement over my previous room configuration. There are a couple of other locations I would like to try for the "problem" sub, but the dog started losing her patience so I will have to do that another day. One downside is that I desperately need some acoustic panels since the L and R speakers are much closer to side walls than they used to be.
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Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
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Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, DIYSG Volt-6 Surrounds
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