The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - Page 810 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24271 of 27595 Old 02-19-2016, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I'm still curious to see what the newest Bond flick Spectre graphs at,
You only need to watch the first chapter to rock the room...
It's up on data bass and not that impressive unfortunately. Has a very similar peak/average to the first Avengers movie. Nothing significant below about 25hz or so.
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post #24272 of 27595 Old 02-19-2016, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Fatshaft or Shreds,

Either of you guys happen to hqve both the special edition True HD and original PCM release of Casino Royale? There is some debate about whether these are the same mix or not and it would be great to get them both measured to see one way or the other if either of you guys happen to have these.
Sorry Toe, don't have it too
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post #24273 of 27595 Old 02-19-2016, 07:21 AM
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Sorry Toe, don't have it too
No worries Shreds/Fatshaft! Thanks anyways.
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post #24274 of 27595 Old 02-20-2016, 05:04 PM
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I finally got a chance to see Chappie this afternoon,
it was an HD Movie Central broadcast in 5.1 DD but the LFE was pretty good,
pleasantly surprised!

...the movie wasn't bad either!

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post #24275 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 07:06 AM
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Everest
Dolby Atmos downmixed into 7.1

0:26:30

1:15:40

1:16:30

1:18:27

1:20:15

1:22:00

1:34:13

1:47:30

See here for waveform analysis: http://data-bass.ipb...movies/?p=12302
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post #24276 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 09:15 AM
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^^^^ I am pretty sure avalanches and large ice formations breaking off the side of a mountain and crashing down would have a little more sub-25hz material in them...overall I really enjoyed the movie though. Didn't anticipate a major bass event going in, but the story itself was well done IMO. Lots of suspenseful moments. I even got sweaty palms at one point. I won't do any spoilers here, but I don't understand why anyone would want to do such a thing (The movie is called "Everest" I mean c'mon guys, we all know what it's about...). I love hiking, skiing, snowboarding, all kinds of outdoorsy stuff, even in cold weather, but that type of thing is just brutal on your body. Human's aren't supposed to be in that high of an altitude.
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post #24277 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 10:01 AM
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@beastaudio ,
Agree! I enjoyed the movie with my girls, and it did bring you into the movie.
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post #24278 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
@beastaudio ,
Agree! I enjoyed the movie with my girls, and it did bring you into the movie.
Did you watch any of the extras? It really appeared that they did their utmost to keep the movie as close to the true story as they possibly could. Visiting the real life people, getting the lead expeditionist (sp?) to train them, etc. The making of stuff for certain movies to me is just as cool as the movie itself, and this one didn't disappoint.
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post #24279 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 02:07 PM
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Put me as another who loved Everest. Besides the lacking extension, bass/audio and video were all excellent. Curious to check out the 3d next watch.

Will definitely check out the extras as well (thanks Beast!).
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post #24280 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Did you watch any of the extras? It really appeared that they did their utmost to keep the movie as close to the true story as they possibly could. Visiting the real life people, getting the lead expeditionist (sp?) to train them, etc. The making of stuff for certain movies to me is just as cool as the movie itself, and this one didn't disappoint.
Yes sir I did, but the girls left me after the movie as they did not want to watch anymore. Thought that was great as well with the real life folks!
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post #24281 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Fatshaft or Shreds,

Either of you guys happen to hqve both the special edition True HD and original PCM release of Casino Royale? There is some debate about whether these are the same mix or not and it would be great to get them both measured to see one way or the other if either of you guys happen to have these.
Don't forget about DTS Master version too. I own all 3 versions. The only one that shakes my cabinets would be the DTS Master disc. Also the DTS version is 24 bit audio. PCM and Dolby are pretty close in sound both are 16 bit audio.
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post #24282 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post
Don't forget about DTS Master version too. I own all 3 versions. The only one that shakes my cabinets would be the DTS Master disc. Also the DTS version is 24 bit audio. PCM and Dolby are pretty close in sound both are 16 bit audio.
Thanks Kemiza. A forum member measured all three tracks and posted his results in Ralphs Casino Royale Special Edition review thread. He found basically what you just said. The PCM and True HD are identical as far as the mix and level. The DTS-MA is basically the same mix as the other two, but 24 bit while the other two are 16 as you mention.
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post #24283 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 10:32 PM
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Don't forget about DTS Master version too. I own all 3 versions. The only one that shakes my cabinets would be the DTS Master disc. Also the DTS version is 24 bit audio. PCM and Dolby are pretty close in sound both are 16 bit audio.
MMMM...well, looks like I might end up owning all three myself -- already have the PCM version, got the TRUEHD soon to arrive, because that was supposed to be the bomb, and also ordered it for testing purposes, but then the tests were done, and I think I know the member to whom Toe was referring, but that member actually said these things:


"[DTS MA version] unlikely to provide any appreciable difference to the listener."


and:


"I believe the discrepancies lies with the bit depth but the actual amplitude statistics and characteristic are effectively the same.
A/B it with the DTHD and PCM which sounded the same to me."


I don't know if that last really means to say he did the A/B, or is suggesting someone else do it, but that he compared the other two and they sounded the same to him, in any event he evidently felt motivated to undertake the testing mission to affirm his assumption of a specific result of all mixes being "unlikely to provide any appreciable difference to the listener."


So you, kemiza, are now saying the DTS MA shakes your cabinets, the others don't, but the others relative to each other are "close, " not exactly the same -- so this is not the same thing as saying they are all the same, and the testimonies keep rolling in on the differences.


Does this look to anyone else like a calculated marketing strategy on the part of the studios? Why the three versions anyway? I think the DTS MA is supposed to be Canadian? Where do you get that? Oh well, got the TRUEHD coming in, guess I'll give that a listen, go from there, but of course now I guess I MUST hear the DTS MA..............
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post #24284 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 10:51 PM
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For frak sakes they are the same mix. The differences lies with the bit depth.
PCM is 16bit, DTHD is faux 24bit it is in fact 16bit, and the DTSMA is actual 24bit.

I did listen to all three and sounded the same to me.

PCM
Total RMS Amplitude: -26.10 dB -26.78 dB -24.13 dB -29.51 dB -33.52 dB -32.91 dB
Loudness (Legacy): -21.10 dB -21.97 dB -15.24 dB -14.32 dB -29.61 dB -29.05 dB
Perceived Loudness (Legacy): -17.64 dB -18.17 dB -10.94 dB -12.57 dB -26.68 dB -24.81 dB

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-of...l#post41781297


DTHD
Total RMS Amplitude: -26.10 dB -26.78 dB -24.13 dB -29.51 dB -33.52 dB -32.91 dB
Loudness (Legacy): -21.10 dB -21.97 dB -15.24 dB -14.25 dB -29.61 dB -29.05 dB
Perceived Loudness (Legacy): -17.64 dB -18.17 dB -10.94 dB -12.59 dB -26.68 dB -24.81 dB

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-of...l#post41761449


DTSMA
Total RMS Amplitude: -26.10 dB -26.78 dB -24.13 dB -29.51 dB -33.52 dB -32.91 dB
Loudness (Legacy): -21.10 dB -21.93 dB -15.56 dB -15.45 dB -29.65 dB -29.09 dB
Perceived Loudness (Legacy): -17.64 dB -18.13 dB -10.94 dB -12.34 dB -26.52 dB -25.49 dB

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-of...l#post41791681

The original release featured PCM for compatibly concerns with the HD audio codecs during the infancy of the BR format. If I recall correctly many early Sony releases featured PCM audio, as well other studios offered it in addition to the HD audio codec version.

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I don't know if that last really means to say he did the A/B, or is suggesting someone else do it, but that he compared the other two and they sounded the same to him, in any event he evidently felt motivated to undertake the testing mission to affirm his assumption of a specific result of all mixes being "unlikely to provide any appreciable difference to the listener."
No I held no assumption on whether they were the same mix or not before going through all the trouble of analyzing the tracks. I did all of it to ascertain whether there was indeed different mixes or not. My conclusions were drawn first by the objective data and confirmed by listening to them as well just to be thorough.
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post #24285 of 27595 Old 02-22-2016, 11:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post
I finally got a chance to see Chappie this afternoon,
it was an HD Movie Central broadcast in 5.1 DD but the LFE was pretty good,
pleasantly surprised!

...the movie wasn't bad either!
There is some pretty good acting/talent in that flick I've heard?
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post #24286 of 27595 Old 02-23-2016, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
For frak sakes they are the same mix. The differences lies with the bit depth.
PCM is 16bit, DTHD is faux 24bit it is in fact 16bit, and the DTSMA is actual 24bit.

I did listen to all three and sounded the same to me.


The original release featured PCM for compatibly concerns with the HD audio codecs during the infancy of the BR format. If I recall correctly many early Sony releases featured PCM audio, as well other studios offered it in addition to the HD audio codec version.


No I held no assumption on whether they were the same mix or not before going through all the trouble of analyzing the tracks. I did all of it to ascertain whether there was indeed different mixes or not. My conclusions were drawn first by the objective data and confirmed by listening to them as well just to be thorough.
Ah, yes, thank you for that. I suppose I was vaguely aware of that bit about PCM as the go-to in the early going of blu, but your illumination lends a little clarity to the situation -- not sure how long it was until the release of the TRUEHD Collector's Edition, but things were probably settling out a good deal more.

As to your conclusions, it now stands established that through your own listening you found all three sounded the same, thank you for confirming that impression, as well as all the effort invested. I'm a little curious here, it seems you had all three of these discs on hand at the ready. Did you acquire them to test them, or...? I may end up getting all three myself, now that my curiosity has been aroused, but that would be the only reason, especially if they are the same.

Anyway, I took at least one of your conclusions to be this:

"[DTS MA version] unlikely to provide any appreciable difference to the listener."

Now of course for contextual clarity I added in "DTS MA version," but is it fair to say you drew that conclusion as well? And yet here we have another listener above, kemiza, providing testimony which would be very much toward a different conclusion, depending of course on how you might define the word "appreciable" -- I would find it appreciable if one version rattled my cabinets, and another did not, and of course this follows in line with an "appreciable" sampling of impressions available online which are drawing distinctions between the various presentations on blu.

This was a point throughout, once you make the leap into generalizing the experience to all listeners, you have jumped the ship of scientific methodology and been steered astray of a proper chain of reasoning. These listeners, clearly, if we are to place faith in the veracity of their anecdotal observations, are finding real appreciable differences which outline and highlight their preferences. Now whatever you may say about how they arrived at such variability, it yet remains to be seen if it might be replicated under rigorous methodology.

And if it is replicated, meaning impressions still differ, well now, wouldn't that be a curious thing? Again, thank you for providing your perspective.
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post #24287 of 27595 Old 02-23-2016, 01:13 PM
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There are some folks who "prefer" one HD codec to another even though there will be no difference when the same mix is used between them, as is the case with Casino Royale.

Ones personal bias to prefer one container over another despite the data being the same can definitely skew perception, especially if one is not doing rapid A/B comparison that is properly level matched.

Emaych, you are reading far too much into what I said about the possible difference between the 16bit versions versus the 24bit version. The mix is the same between the three versions but I can concede with the 24bit version that there is a minor improved difference in precision, apart from a lower noise floor, that might potentially be audible to a child who has not been exposed to any loud noises. Since there are no level or dynamic range differences the extra precision will not change the bass output. As well the levels are sufficiently above the noise floor of even the 16bit version and the dynamics of the mix is within its limits as well.

I did take some time to analyze a short segment of when Bond explodes a gas tank with his pistol at the 18:34 - 18:47 mark.
The comparison is of the DTHD and DTSMA tracks.
*Note the text file is formatted with the columns properly aligned.
Spoiler!


Oh, lest I forget. The PCM, DTHD, and DTSMA versions physically on hand.
Spoiler!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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Attached Files
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post #24288 of 27595 Old 02-23-2016, 01:31 PM
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^^^Much more to say on what you have stated there, but in a hurry just now, so while you are at hand, I will express that you may have misinterpreted my inquiry about having the three versions on hand as a challenge to whether you actually had them or not -- Heaven forfend! -- my gosh, fabricating all that data would seem to be so much more trouble, I can't imagine!

But especially if you had reasonable suspicion that the mixes were the same, and I do count that as a very reasonable hypothesis, as I would have shared it absent any other consideration...but might I ask, just as a matter of idle curiosity, why or how you came to acquire them? That would seem to be superfluous.

Now in my case, I suspect I will end up owning all three, but now I'm mission activated, and I have already shelled out for the Collector's (has not yet arrived, so no impression, except unless you count bias-corrupting extraneous information exposure), so only now need look into acquisition of that DTSMA version which presumably might be available at nominal cost.

Thanks!
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post #24289 of 27595 Old 02-23-2016, 01:39 PM
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I originally bought the first disc when it came out, in this case a friend lent their copy, then upgraded to the Deluxe Edition mostly for the extras and then got the DTSMA version when I purchased the Bond 50 Collection.

I know what you were inferring and I provided proof that all the data is derived from the actual discs and not from second hand sources that could potentially corrupt the data.

Have fun comparing them and make sure the levels are matched otherwise any observation will be null and void.

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post #24290 of 27595 Old 02-24-2016, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post
...got the DTSMA version when I purchased the Bond 50 Collection. Have fun comparing them and make sure the levels are matched otherwise any observation will be null and void.
Very good, that provides an alternate source for the DTSMA version, than the Canadian market, though I think I'm not possibly in the market for the whole collection. As to observations, virtually any kind of observation, being rendered "null and void"...well, can't really imagine that scenario.

In fact, I would count it as a toweringly significant observation that raising volume itself introduces huge differential in terms of impressions formed, but ALWAYS the grounding point, the orientation, the primary locus of human interest emanates from human perception, certainly not the other way around, where data dumps eclipse the sensory stimuli, and/or perception of it.

Just a little background here: I entered an ongoing discussion of possible distinctions being drawn between the various presentations of a certain soundtrack on blu-ray. There was wide variability in the impressions expressed between them, many involving bass content differences. I had sort assumed all these presentations were all the same, but just to remove that variable, I asked an open-ended question: what if the identical same segment of the PCM version were played twice in a row, no variation, for test subjects -- would these trials sound different?

My hypothesis is that they would (to a significant sample), but the question under discussion really was whether anecdotal testimony already existing about the perceived difference in two or three tracks really supported that hypothesis, if, in fact, all those tracks were the same -- so that became the thing to discover, i.e., were those tracks, presented in PCM, TRUEHD, and DTSMA (said to have such different characteristics), really the same?

I completely defer to your findings in this regard, and thank you for your efforts. This established for me fairly concretely, even absent proper methodological rigor, that human perception rests on variables unaccounted for in the relative sameness vs. differentness of two or three tracks.

I count this as highly significant, and rather than depose human perception as all-critical, since that is never to be challenged, it relegates the "originating object" of such perception to relatively diminished status as to what becomes or is actually the most meaningful determinant in our constructs of reality.

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There are some folks who "prefer" one HD codec to another even though there will be no difference when the same mix is used between them, as is the case with Casino Royale.Ones personal bias to prefer one container over another despite the data being the same can definitely skew perception, especially if one is not doing rapid A/B comparison that is properly level matched.
Oh yes, definitely agreed. Another major major corrupter of perception/impression might be said to be awareness of "objective" measurement. Not sure on studies done which demonstrate that effect, but the phenomenon would essentially be the same as with introducing any other expectation bias.


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Emaych, you are reading far too much into what I said about the possible difference between the 16bit versions versus the 24bit version. The mix is the same between the three versions but I can concede with the 24bit version that there is a minor improved difference in precision, apart from a lower noise floor, that might potentially be audible to a child who has not been exposed to any loud noises. Since there are no level or dynamic range differences the extra precision will not change the bass output.
So on the point of bass output, our friend kemiza, above, seems to dispute that, although to be fair, he is not actually talking about "output," per se, in the same meaning that you probably are, he was intending only to imply that in his circumstance, his PERCEPTION of the output was that it was greater in one case over the others, if I read his statement correctly.

And of course, as always, perception is king -- our perceptions are the only thing that make movies meaningful, without that perception, whatever data that might be generated has no context or significance. After all, people don't flock to the theaters to see numbers on a screen, or musical notes transcribed as in sheet music, or the streaming 1s and 0s of what recreates imagery....
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post #24291 of 27595 Old 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM
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There is some pretty good acting/talent in that flick I've heard?
Not IMO...I kind of hated Chappie. The duo from Die Antwoord were pretty awful if you ask me.
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post #24292 of 27595 Old 02-24-2016, 12:44 PM
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Not IMO...I kind of hated Chappie. The duo from Die Antwoord were pretty awful if you ask me.
Yeah, agreed -- and their motivations and even the basic nature of their characters seemed to vacillate from one scene to the next, so to be fair what they were asked to create was not credible from the outset. And did not find Dav Patel to rise much beyond that, but same complaint as to his character. I did watch it twice though, second viewing I found myself much more forgiving of its shortcomings....
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post #24293 of 27595 Old 02-24-2016, 02:50 PM
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I revisited The Immortals recently, as I do many of the so-called "bass" movies for enjoyment, and also to keep my ears and bass "memory" calibrated as new movies with bass become available. And on more than one instance, after hearing a new "reference" bass movie, I go back to an older "reference" movie to either be disappointed or pleased with what I hear.

Watching the Immortals was a brutal reminder of just how powerful, loud, deep, and yes, occasionally clipped the bass is in this movie. It's also a visually arresting picture, with graphic and sometimes stunning, CGI generated violence and slo-mo dismemberment not suitable for the kids. Tons of bass in this movie for those who like that kind of thing.

Jeff.

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Last edited by Alembicjeff; 02-24-2016 at 02:52 PM. Reason: to delete irrelevant quote
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post #24294 of 27595 Old 02-24-2016, 02:59 PM
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Watching In the heart of the sea. The bass is fantastic early on in this movie so far.

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post #24295 of 27595 Old 02-24-2016, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bori View Post
Watching In the heart of the sea. The bass is fantastic early on in this movie so far.
It is unfortunately steeply filtered from 30HZ down like a steep mountain side
I can't believe that they still do that and we're in 2016! So frustrating!
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post #24296 of 27595 Old 02-25-2016, 12:58 AM
 
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Not IMO...I kind of hated Chappie. The duo from Die Antwoord were pretty awful if you ask me.
That was pretty much what I meant; I only used a different approach to say it. But this a comedy, and these two guys...well, we know their style.
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post #24297 of 27595 Old 02-27-2016, 12:40 PM
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Renting The Martian tonight. Looking forward to it from everyone's opinion. Revisited Oblivion last night; what an all around gem. Such a great mix.
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post #24298 of 27595 Old 02-27-2016, 12:56 PM
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@ Toe

Fantastic 4 at almost reference (-8.5db) for the end was just incredible. Loved the execution on this one the ULF had great pressurization but more importantly it was super clean well done bass!

thanks for the heads up!
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post #24299 of 27595 Old 02-27-2016, 02:00 PM
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@ Toe

Fantastic 4 at almost reference (-8.5db) for the end was just incredible. Loved the execution on this one the ULF had great pressurization but more importantly it was super clean well done bass!

thanks for the heads up!
This is the problem I'm having, everyone is saying to keep the clips short on the demo disc. But this scene is awesome, and trying to cut it to a couple minutes is difficult. Right now I have from when
Spoiler!
Total is around 14 minutes. Which everyone is saying is too long. But damn this whole thing is great.
Maybe if I just use from
Spoiler!
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post #24300 of 27595 Old 02-27-2016, 02:14 PM
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This is the problem I'm having, everyone is saying to keep the clips short on the demo disc. But this scene is awesome, and trying to cut it to a couple minutes is difficult. Right now I have from when
Spoiler!
Total is around 14 minutes. Which everyone is saying is too long. But damn this whole thing is great.
Maybe if I just use from
Spoiler!
I say both the movie just has great infrasonic's! Sounds like a double disc set is in order
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