The Official XTZ Owners Thread - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 148Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 11:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,289
Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2674 Post(s)
Liked: 3205
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Well, FedEx did what they do best, damage packages. Went and picked up the 1X12 today and noticed a puncture through the cardboard. The entire box is wrapped in black plastic, so it's possible to have significant damage and not be able to see it. Not sure why XTZ wraps the boxes in black plastic. Anyway, I've had packages with bumps and bruises before, so I figured it was packaged/protected well enough that it should be fine. Once home and removing the black plastic, I could see the damage was far more significant. Looks like this box probably fell off the top of a stack and landed badly on something. Removed the sub from the box and all looked okay until I noticed a lighter color areas around the driver. The jolt the box took cracked loose areas where the driver is connected to the front of the sub. This is very disappointing and I guess we'll see how XTZ customer support handles the issue.




Wow. Sorry to see that. That does seem to be quite a bit of damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 01:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MIX_MASTER_ICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,921
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2588 Post(s)
Liked: 2414
I would be interested to see what Marc thinks of the 1X12 compared to the Monolith 10. Granted, the 1X12 I have may be a little gimped due to being dropped on it's head, but it doesn't seem to have the same impact or feel of even the Monolith 10. I level matched the two and am running them on my 2.1 music only system. Now if I am playing music with deep bass, I can slightly hear and feel air coming from at least two spots on the baffle where the damage occurred. The amp gain structure is also not very sensitive, much like the Monolith subs. I guess maybe this is just a consistency in how Claridy sets up their amps.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12 (x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000 (x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 AMT bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.
MIX_MASTER_ICE is offline  
post #213 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 02:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,289
Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2674 Post(s)
Liked: 3205
@Marc Alexander can you comment on your experience and comparison of the 1x12?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #214 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 05:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 972
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 840
MMI, damn bro sorry to hear that! I bet right when you saw the damage you were dreading having to deal with their customer service. However, according to recent posts by ppl here, they seem to have got things running smooth again, so I hope it's painless, fast, and easy.

And as for Marc, he's been busy. He'll get to it eventually.
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #215 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 05:22 PM
Member
 
LennS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Fernando Valley, CA
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Liked: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Well, FedEx did what they do best, damage packages. Went and picked up the 1X12 today and noticed a puncture through the cardboard. The entire box is wrapped in black plastic, so it's possible to have significant damage and not be able to see it. Not sure why XTZ wraps the boxes in black plastic. Anyway, I've had packages with bumps and bruises before, so I figured it was packaged/protected well enough that it should be fine. Once home and removing the black plastic, I could see the damage was far more significant. Looks like this box probably fell off the top of a stack and landed badly on something. Removed the sub from the box and all looked okay until I noticed a lighter color areas around the driver. The jolt the box took cracked loose areas where the driver is connected to the front of the sub. This is very disappointing and I guess we'll see how XTZ customer support handles the issue.


Sorry to see the damage inflicted during the delivery of your new sub. Hopefully XTZ will take care or it quickly for you.
MIX_MASTER_ICE likes this.
LennS is offline  
post #216 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
Writer & Reviewer
 
JimWilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere in New Joisey
Posts: 8,116
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Liked: 3234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
The entire box is wrapped in black plastic, so it's possible to have significant damage and not be able to see it. Not sure why XTZ wraps the boxes in black plastic.
I think they do that with all the Cinema Series (except the 3x12, which gets shrink wrapped to the pallet instead). It's to protect the contents from moisture. It's such a shame that kind of stuff happens to so many deliveries. What that industry needs is competition, the current duopoly isn't working at all.

 
If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite...
JimWilson is offline  
post #217 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 07:31 PM
Senior Member
 
dubusduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 330
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Well, FedEx did what they do best, damage packages. Went and picked up the 1X12 today and noticed a puncture through the cardboard. The entire box is wrapped in black plastic, so it's possible to have significant damage and not be able to see it. Not sure why XTZ wraps the boxes in black plastic. Anyway, I've had packages with bumps and bruises before, so I figured it was packaged/protected well enough that it should be fine. Once home and removing the black plastic, I could see the damage was far more significant. Looks like this box probably fell off the top of a stack and landed badly on something. Removed the sub from the box and all looked okay until I noticed a lighter color areas around the driver. The jolt the box took cracked loose areas where the driver is connected to the front of the sub. This is very disappointing and I guess we'll see how XTZ customer support handles the issue. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]


That’s sucks. Hope you get it worked out. Ignoring the damage, how do you like the finish of the sub?

LG 65EF9500: Sony UBP-X800; Oppo 105D; Denon 7200WA; Polk LSI; Axiom Audio M5HP; SVS SB-13 Ultra; John 3:16;
dubusduck is offline  
post #218 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 08:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,674
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1012 Post(s)
Liked: 1261
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I would be interested to see what Marc thinks of the 1X12 compared to the Monolith 10. Granted, the 1X12 I have may be a little gimped due to being dropped on it's head, but it doesn't seem to have the same impact or feel of even the Monolith 10. I level matched the two and am running them on my 2.1 music only system. Now if I am playing music with deep bass, I can slightly hear and feel air coming from at least two spots on the baffle where the damage occurred. The amp gain structure is also not very sensitive, much like the Monolith subs. I guess maybe this is just a consistency in how Claridy sets up their amps.
Honestly given the damage I wouldn't consider compairing it to other units. Wait till you get one in full working order first.
Pradeep2 is offline  
post #219 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 08:55 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 230 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5269 Post(s)
Liked: 4794
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
Marc, we're all awaiting your thoughts on your 1x12...no pressure tho lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
@Marc Alexander can you comment on your experience and comparison of the 1x12?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I went on vacation 2 weeks ago and got extremely sick (I'm still on antibiotics). My son's birthday party is tomorrow but I did get a chance to measure today to confirm my listening experience.

A few weeks ago I replaced the nearfield Monolith 10 with the XTZ Sub 1x12. The XTZ gave me more midbass slam than the Monolith but less ULF.


The Sub 1x12 is a completely different sub than the Monoliths. They both have very low distortion (as expected with THX certification). I should have 2M GP measurements Monday. In my den the Monolith 10 had ~3dB more headroom ≤20Hz. The M10 and Sub 1x12 were equal at 25Hz. Above 25Hz the XTZ pulls away and never looks back. It is up ~6dB at 50Hz and ~9dB by 100Hz. This signature of the 1x12 is closest to PSA (it makes for an effective MBM) while the Monoliths are closest to Rythmik.

At the demo price the 1x12 is a steal. The Monolith 10 & 12 are highway robbery IMO. I noticed the Monoliths are sold out now (new stock 8/28/18).
GeoJustGeo likes this.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #220 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 09:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,289
Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2674 Post(s)
Liked: 3205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I went on vacation 2 weeks ago and got extremely sick (I'm still on antibiotics). My son's birthday party is tomorrow but I did get a chance to measure today to confirm my listening experience.

A few weeks ago I replaced the nearfield Monolith 10 with the XTZ Sub 1x12. The XTZ gave me more midbass slam than the Monolith but less ULF.


The Sub 1x12 is a completely different sub than the Monoliths. They both have very low distortion (as expected with THX certification). I should have 2M GP measurements Monday. In my den the Monolith 10 had ~3dB more headroom ≤20Hz. The M10 and Sub 1x12 were equal at 25Hz. Above 25Hz the XTZ pulls away and never looks back. It is up ~6dB at 50Hz and ~9dB by 100Hz. This signature of the 1x12 is closest to PSA (it makes for an effective MBM) while the Monoliths are closest to Rythmik.

At the demo price the 1x12 is a steal. The Monolith 10 & 12 are highway robbery IMO. I noticed the Monoliths are sold out now (new stock 8/28/18).


Sorry to hear about your health issue. Hope you are recovering fast. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Using the mono 12 and 1x12 as proxies for the mono 15 and 3x12, would your statements still hold true in your opinion? Also the room where you have them is open right? So in a small the room the XTZ would benefit from the room gain more than the mono?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #221 of 329 Old 06-23-2018, 10:37 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 230 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5269 Post(s)
Liked: 4794
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Sorry to hear about your health issue. Hope you are recovering fast. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Using the mono 12 and 1x12 as proxies for the mono 15 and 3x12, would your statements still hold true in your opinion? Also the room where you have them is open right? So in a small the room the XTZ would benefit from the room gain more than the mono?
Well, I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Yes, my room is open. Your small room's cabin gain will boost lower frequencies but not upper-bass. But the room gain will benefit either sub equally. The headroom each has over the other shouldn't change from my room to yours.

I don't think we can infer much about the 3x12 from the 1x12. The tuning frequency appears to be just above 20Hz (I will have to confirm) while the 3x12 is at 17Hz. We really don't need to infer as Jim F and Josh R both fully reviewed it. The current 3x12 version has better amplification/DSP than previously reviewed.

However, if I make assumptions based on the Maximum Long Term Output graph on data-bass I do suspect the sound signature is more similar to PSA (especially in anechoic/THX mode). Monolith 15s would be a step backwards for you vs your PSA V1801s.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #222 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 03:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 972
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I went on vacation 2 weeks ago and got extremely sick (I'm still on antibiotics).

This signature of the 1x12 is closest to PSA (it makes for an effective MBM) while the Monoliths are closest to Rythmik.
@Marc , hope you're doing better! And thanks for taking the time to give us your feedback while you have an important day coming up.
@imureh , maybe this helps explain why I couldn't tell a big difference in sound signature between the 2?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20180521_145155_1529837226165.jpg
Views:	163
Size:	1.12 MB
ID:	2419850   Click image for larger version

Name:	20180521_151456_1529837249924.jpg
Views:	188
Size:	1.27 MB
ID:	2419852  
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #223 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 05:59 AM
Senior Member
 
tamiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Broward, Florida
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
@Marc , hope you're doing better! And thanks for taking the time to give us your feedback while you have an important day coming up.
@imureh , maybe this helps explain why I couldn't tell a big difference in sound signature between the 2?
Hi, so you saying 3x12 sounds like PSA v1801 difference being the SPL?

Marantz AV7703, Outlaw 7700+5000
LCR JBL 590, Surround 530, Surround Back 520c, Atmos Arena B15
IB SBA setup with 4x18" IB3-V2 & NX3000D
Epson 5040ub, 133" 16:9 Milliskin
FS: Brand new never open JBL Studio 580 speaker pair
tamiya is offline  
post #224 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 09:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 972
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
Hi, so you saying 3x12 sounds like PSA v1801 difference being the SPL?
Kinda, yes. Can't say for sure tho since I'm still new to this hobby and my ears and knowledge aren't trained as well as others like Mike, Marc, MMI, and Imureh. At the same time a 12 (or 3 for that matter) is not an 18. Im sure we'll get more input as others begin to get their subs shipped.
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #225 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 02:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MIX_MASTER_ICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,921
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2588 Post(s)
Liked: 2414
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
MMI, damn bro sorry to hear that! I bet right when you saw the damage you were dreading having to deal with their customer service. However, according to recent posts by ppl here, they seem to have got things running smooth again, so I hope it's painless, fast, and easy.

And as for Marc, he's been busy. He'll get to it eventually.

I did receive a reply from XTZ on Sunday morning. They stated they will contact their USA partner and get the problem resloved on Monday. So for that I'm impressed that they reply on a Sunday. I'm hoping I can get a replacement sub sent out right away, but we'll see what the plan is tomorrow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dubusduck View Post
That’s sucks. Hope you get it worked out. Ignoring the damage, how do you like the finish of the sub?

The finish is nice. It is similar to the satin finish of the HSU VTF-15H I have, but maybe a little less reflective than the HSU finish. I like the clean look of the 1X12 front baffle, with no visible screws. With nothing to remove on the front if the driver needed to be removed, I'm assuming you would have to remove the amp in back and get to the driver from the inside. Probably not very convenient should one have to do a driver swap or something like that.



I've had no auto on/off issues like Jim Wilson had with the 3X12. It kicks on when the volume is fairly low and I timed it from the moment I turned off the receiver and it took right at 10 minutes for it to go back into "sleep" mode. 10 minutes is a little bit short of what I would prefer, but I've seen some amps go to sleep/standby in as little as 2-3 minutes, which is way too quick.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12 (x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000 (x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 AMT bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.
MIX_MASTER_ICE is offline  
post #226 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 08:51 PM
Senior Member
 
tamiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Broward, Florida
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
@Marc , hope you're doing better! And thanks for taking the time to give us your feedback while you have an important day coming up.
@imureh , maybe this helps explain why I couldn't tell a big difference in sound signature between the 2?
On post #153 you wrote the following:
"As for a comparison to the v1801. Guessing that I even level matched the 3x12 to the v1801 somewhat close with my wannabe spl meter, and playing some of my most familiar scenes, on 2db less on my mv, and 2db less on the sub trim than when i played it with the v1801.....the 3x12 did stuff to my chair the v1801 hasn't done. The bass also seems more spread out, maybe it's the height?

Overall, the 3x12 so far is a lot stronger and deeper than the v1801. By how much? Who knows. "

Isn't it a contradiction that you can't tell the difference between v1801 and 3x12?

Marantz AV7703, Outlaw 7700+5000
LCR JBL 590, Surround 530, Surround Back 520c, Atmos Arena B15
IB SBA setup with 4x18" IB3-V2 & NX3000D
Epson 5040ub, 133" 16:9 Milliskin
FS: Brand new never open JBL Studio 580 speaker pair
tamiya is offline  
post #227 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 10:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3403 Post(s)
Liked: 4161
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
On post #153 you wrote the following:
"As for a comparison to the v1801. Guessing that I even level matched the 3x12 to the v1801 somewhat close with my wannabe spl meter, and playing some of my most familiar scenes, on 2db less on my mv, and 2db less on the sub trim than when i played it with the v1801.....the 3x12 did stuff to my chair the v1801 hasn't done. The bass also seems more spread out, maybe it's the height?

Overall, the 3x12 so far is a lot stronger and deeper than the v1801. By how much? Who knows. "

Isn't it a contradiction that you can't tell the difference between v1801 and 3x12?
The 3x12 tested very similar to the Cap 1400, including the CEA-2010 Max Burst and THD. This means they have similar sound signature. Having compared the PSA V1801 and the Cap 1400, I can tell you that they sound more alike than different. The 3x12 would be at least +6dB at 25Hz and below.

In my HT, 30Hz shakes the drywalls. 25Hz shakes the windows/doors. 15~20Hz shakes the floor beneath my chair. So I am not so surprised that he can't tell the V1801 and the 3x12 apart except that "the 3x12 did stuff to my chair the v1801 hasn't done."

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #228 of 329 Old 06-24-2018, 10:06 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 230 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5269 Post(s)
Liked: 4794
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
On post #153 you wrote the following:
"As for a comparison to the v1801. Guessing that I even level matched the 3x12 to the v1801 somewhat close with my wannabe spl meter, and playing some of my most familiar scenes, on 2db less on my mv, and 2db less on the sub trim than when i played it with the v1801.....the 3x12 did stuff to my chair the v1801 hasn't done. The bass also seems more spread out, maybe it's the height?

Overall, the 3x12 so far is a lot stronger and deeper than the v1801. By how much? Who knows. "

Isn't it a contradiction that you can't tell the difference between v1801 and 3x12?
He said "sound signature" which is generally comprised of the native frequency response and distortion profile. The XTZ has significantly more output.
GeoJustGeo likes this.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #229 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
Writer & Reviewer
 
JimWilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere in New Joisey
Posts: 8,116
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2155 Post(s)
Liked: 3234
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I've had no auto on/off issues like Jim Wilson had with the 3X12. It kicks on when the volume is fairly low and I timed it from the moment I turned off the receiver and it took right at 10 minutes for it to go back into "sleep" mode. 10 minutes is a little bit short of what I would prefer, but I've seen some amps go to sleep/standby in as little as 2-3 minutes, which is way too quick.
Good to hear they fixed that with the new amps. My S1 is like that - amp enters sleep mode after about 2 minutes - and it tends to get frustrating as I'm one of those mute-all-commercials people so the amp is off almost as much as on it seems.

 
If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite...
JimWilson is offline  
post #230 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 09:39 AM
Senior Member
 
tamiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Broward, Florida
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
He said "sound signature" which is generally comprised of the native frequency response and distortion profile. The XTZ has significantly more output.
Significantly more output like "The 3x12 would be at least +6dB at 25Hz and below."
How to interpret +6db more output or put it into perspective?
For instance, from V1801 to V3601 kinda of output increase?

Marantz AV7703, Outlaw 7700+5000
LCR JBL 590, Surround 530, Surround Back 520c, Atmos Arena B15
IB SBA setup with 4x18" IB3-V2 & NX3000D
Epson 5040ub, 133" 16:9 Milliskin
FS: Brand new never open JBL Studio 580 speaker pair
tamiya is offline  
post #231 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 09:42 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 972
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
On post #153 you wrote the following:
"As for a comparison to the v1801. Guessing that I even level matched the 3x12 to the v1801 somewhat close with my wannabe spl meter, and playing some of my most familiar scenes, on 2db less on my mv, and 2db less on the sub trim than when i played it with the v1801.....the 3x12 did stuff to my chair the v1801 hasn't done. The bass also seems more spread out, maybe it's the height?

Overall, the 3x12 so far is a lot stronger and deeper than the v1801. By how much? Who knows. "

Isn't it a contradiction that you can't tell the difference between v1801 and 3x12?
Like it's been mentioned, it's the sound signature I can't tell much of a difference of. However, the power and extension of the 3x12 is obviously greater than the v1801.
GeoJustGeo is online now  
post #232 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 09:48 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 230 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5269 Post(s)
Liked: 4794
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
For instance, from V1801 to V3601 kinda of output increase?
Yes. Just consider the Sub 3x12 XTZ's equivalent to the PSA V36x11 and JTR Captivator 1400.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #233 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 11:10 AM
Senior Member
 
tamiya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Broward, Florida
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Yes. Just consider the Sub 3x12 XTZ's equivalent to the PSA V36x11 and JTR Captivator 1400.
PSA V3611=1920W RMS, 18"x2, cone area 509
XTZ 3 x 12=1500W RMS, 12"x3, cone area 340
JTR 1400 =1400W RMS, 18"x1, cone area 254.5

If their outputs are similar to each other, same ported design too, what's the cause? amp power? cabinet sizes?

BTW, judging from the number on the paper, it looks like 1400 is most efficient design?

Marantz AV7703, Outlaw 7700+5000
LCR JBL 590, Surround 530, Surround Back 520c, Atmos Arena B15
IB SBA setup with 4x18" IB3-V2 & NX3000D
Epson 5040ub, 133" 16:9 Milliskin
FS: Brand new never open JBL Studio 580 speaker pair
tamiya is offline  
post #234 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 11:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,289
Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2674 Post(s)
Liked: 3205
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
PSA V3611=1920W RMS, 18"x2, cone area 509

XTZ 3 x 12=1500W RMS, 12"x3, cone area 340

JTR 1400 =1400W RMS, 18"x1, cone area 254.5



If their outputs are similar to each other, same ported design too, what's the cause? amp power? cabinet sizes?



BTW, judging from the number on the paper, it looks like 1400 is most efficient design?


There is a lot of this info on the first few pages of the JTR thread if you want to understand in more detail. The Cap 1400 is the most expensive of these three subs for a reason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is online now  
post #235 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 01:34 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,126
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5371 Post(s)
Liked: 10024
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
PSA V3611=1920W RMS, 18"x2, cone area 509
XTZ 3 x 12=1500W RMS, 12"x3, cone area 340
JTR 1400 =1400W RMS, 18"x1, cone area 254.5

If their outputs are similar to each other, same ported design too, what's the cause? amp power? cabinet sizes?

BTW, judging from the number on the paper, it looks like 1400 is most efficient design?

Hi,

There are too many variables to boil it down to just cone area. Even if you add in amplifier power and cabinet volume, we still don't have a complete picture. For instance, there are motor strength, excursion (how much the cone moves in and out), port design and port tune, and DSP to consider. All of those factors interrelate according to a designer's philosophy and his specific implementation. And, the choices he makes affect both the performance and the price of the subwoofer.

I don't begin to understand the interrelation of all of those factors, and even someone who really does (such as a subwoofer designer) could probably spend most of a day trying to explain them all to us. And, we might not fully understand the explanation. In the end, designers make certain choices and trade-offs in their designs.

For instance, the PSA subs, such as the V3611 will have more mid-bass (40Hz and up) SPL than the other two. It will have quite a bit more, in fact--perhaps the equivalent of two Cap 1400's or 3X12's. But, below 30Hz, and especially below 20Hz, it will lose SPL much faster than the other two will. At very low-frequencies, it might take two V3611's to equal one of the other two subs.

In all cases, the designer is making choices to emphasize certain frequencies with more SPL. And, there is no one-size fits all solution. People who have PSA subs are very happy with them, and from my experience, tend to stay very loyal to the brand. But, I have noticed that the emphasis on more mid-bass SPL may make PSA owners more likely to upgrade or add subwoofers to obtain even more low-frequency SPL. They stay within the PSA line, but they move up from 15" models, to 1811's, and from 1811's to 3611's.

By contrast, fewer JTR owners seem to want to upgrade from Cap 118's or Cap 1400's to even more powerful (and expensive) models because they are already getting a lot of low-bass SPL. (Note: JTR doesn't offer an upgrade path, but there seems to be little need for one.)

So, everyone just needs to decide for himself what he is looking for. Someone who is looking to have 120-125db db from about 40Hz up, will probably enjoy the V3611 more. And, some people really do like to listen at very high volume levels. Someone who is content to top out at about 115-120db in that same frequency range, but who wants to maximize the <20Hz frequencies with more SPL, will probably do better with the ported Captivators or the XTZ 3X12. Since, ~120db is roughly Reference (although some allowance must be made for distance from the sub to the MLP) that is still pretty loud.

As a general rule, we pay extra for frequencies below 20Hz, compared to frequencies above 20Hz, as it takes more effort to produce them at high sound pressure levels. But, that is just a generalization. This truly is a YMMV question, and one which each individual ultimately has to answer for himself. I hope that this helps a little!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 06-25-2018 at 01:45 PM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #236 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 01:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,725
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2913 Post(s)
Liked: 9600
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
PSA V3611=1920W RMS, 18"x2, cone area 509
XTZ 3 x 12=1500W RMS, 12"x3, cone area 340
JTR 1400 =1400W RMS, 18"x1, cone area 254.5

If their outputs are similar to each other, same ported design too, what's the cause? amp power? cabinet sizes?

BTW, judging from the number on the paper, it looks like 1400 is most efficient design?
Averaged from 15-100hz the V3601/V3611 is about 3dB higher than the xtz, the V1801/V1811 is about 3dB less. 3dB is about 50% in this context so you can say it would take 3 V1801 to match dual xtz 3x12 and it would take three xtz 3x12 to match dual V3601.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
post #237 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 02:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,725
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2913 Post(s)
Liked: 9600
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
But, I have noticed that the emphasis on more mid-bass SPL may make PSA owners more likely to upgrade or add subwoofers to obtain even more low-frequency SPL. They stay within the PSA line, but they move up from 15" models, to 1811's, and from 1811's to 3611's.

By contrast, fewer JTR owners seem to want to upgrade
I've literally never had a customer trade up withing the same product line and say "i need even more low frequency". Going from small sealed to large ported, sure. But going from say a V1801 to a V3601? That's never been the focus of the discussion.


About 80% of all upgrades fall into two main categories

1) we have old(4-5-6 year old) 15 inch models being used as credit to something brand new---and very often it is the same model. For example...I must send out a couple of 15V every week in trade for older xv15 or xv15se subs. Same with the 15S or S1500---customers sending back their old xs15 or old xs15se for a brand new s1500.

2) Someone has a model that has just been updated and they just HAVE to have the latest and greatest version. So we got plenty of V1800 to V1801 for example. And even now, We'll have a variety of subs coming back for the exact same model...jsut with the new XLR inputs/12v trigger. A S1500 being sent back for a brand new S1510. That type of thing.

The remaining 20% are things like.

* The customer's listening room environment has changed significantly so they need to upsize or downsize accordingly. This usually entails going from large ported to midsize sealed or vice versa.

* They ordered the SE upgrade kit and/or the ICE upgrade kit. But before I ship those I contact them and give them all of the info on how much credit I can give them for their 4-5-6 year old subwoofer. 99% of the time they are in "happy shock" as they can often get a BRAND new sub for about the same pricing as the upgrades.

* They just want to try something different. Let's face it...this is COMMON for all of us...its just human nature.

We're just the only ID brand that makes it so convenient.. Our customers don't have to go through the hassle or risks of ebay or hosting complete strangers from craigslist. I handle all of the shipping labels/bill of lading stuff, I can provide any/all boxing sets as required...even for their subs that are 4-5-6 years old. I try to make the whole process as easy as possible. Just today, We shipped dual S3000i for someone with dual XV15. He had no boxing but never-fear. We shipped on a pallet so I could include two complete boxing sets for him at no additional shipping charge. And I think he was pretty happy when he found out how much it was to go from 4-5 year old subs to new S3000i subs..


Also, It may be difficult to gauge how other brand customers may or may not take advantage of something when it doesn't exist for them to even consider I wonder if jtr told all of his customers with 5-6-7 year old subs they could trade those in for the brand new models and get a significant portion of their original purchase price back in credit how many hundreds(thousands?) would be jumping all over that? I'd bet it would be exceedingly popular. Of course the whole process takes a huge time/customer service commitment as well so it's not for every business model.
Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,

Last edited by Tom Vodhanel; 06-25-2018 at 02:37 PM.
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
post #238 of 329 Old 06-25-2018, 07:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cannga's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Palos Verdes - Lakers Land
Posts: 3,369
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1862 Post(s)
Liked: 1825
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
PSA V3611=1920W RMS, 18"x2, cone area 509
XTZ 3 x 12=1500W RMS, 12"x3, cone area 340
JTR 1400 =1400W RMS, 18"x1, cone area 254.5

If their outputs are similar to each other, same ported design too, what's the cause? amp power? cabinet sizes?

BTW, judging from the number on the paper, it looks like 1400 is most efficient design?
For PSA V3611 and JTR 1400, indeed an extremely interesting comparison of subwoofer design, subwoofer performance is determined by 3 primary factors:

1. Cabinet size: PSA 3601 is a HUGE subwoofer, much bigger than JTR so it's not cabinet size. PSA 3601's volume (around 22,000 cubic inches w/ grill) is nearly twice that of JTR 1400 (13,500 cubic inches).
2. Amp power: Both use SpeakerPower amps with IcePower modules of either identical,or similar rating, so it's not this. PSA lists 1920 Watts RMS, but does NOT show what the impedance load is for this rating - so it may or may not be the exact same power as JTR 1400 Watts. And if PSA amp is indeed more powerful, it would provide even more evidence how fantastic the JTR driver is.
3. Driver size & specs ( Xmax and motor strength primarily) : This is the reason. JTR uses a driver with much higher Xmax at 33mm and much more powerful motor. Think supercharged Corvette V8 LOL. Among the highest in commercial subwoofers currently available.

Assuming your "if" condition is correct, the fact that JTR 1400 has
a. nearly HALF the size
b. exactly HALF the driver surface area, is absolutely STUNNING and just shows how powerful that driver and motor are.

BTW, a company could rely on "cost saving upgrade path," or it could depend on absolute performance first time around, as selling point. The first approach is financially beneficial, and a wonderful business model. As long as performance stays near the top, this approach is admirable. The second approach, IMHO the true spirit of high end audio in the US for past 50 years, is what I prefer.
chucky7 and jamiebosco like this.

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

Last edited by cannga; 06-25-2018 at 08:44 PM.
cannga is online now  
post #239 of 329 Old 06-26-2018, 03:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MIX_MASTER_ICE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,921
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2588 Post(s)
Liked: 2414
Receiving the email from Olle on Sunday that the matter would be taken care of on Monday was encouraging. Sadly, I've not received any follow up emails. Not communicating is bad enough, but as bad or worse is not following through on something you stated you would do. That's very frustrating.
GeoJustGeo likes this.

Subs>RBH I-12e/I-12. HSU VTF-15H mk2. Monolith THX 12 (x2)/THX 10(x2). XTZ 1X12. SVS PB-1000 (x2). Speakers>JBL 270/235c/230/225c, Arena 130/125c. Jamo S807/S803. Infinity P363/163. Sony CS3/CS8/CS5. QA 3020i/3090Ci, 2020i/2000c. Monolith Cinema 5 AMT bs. Polk RTiA1/CsiA4. Other Audio>Sony MDR-Z7m2, WH-XB700, XB32, XB31. Sennheiser HD58X, HD4.50, PC37X. HyperX Cloud PS4 HS. Plantronics RIG500 Pro HS. LG FH6,RK8,RK7,PK5. UE Boom3.
MIX_MASTER_ICE is offline  
post #240 of 329 Old 06-27-2018, 03:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 972
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Receiving the email from Olle on Sunday that the matter would be taken care of on Monday was encouraging. Sadly, I've not received any follow up emails. Not communicating is bad enough, but as bad or worse is not following through on something you stated you would do. That's very frustrating.
That sucks, it was looking promising (no pun lol). Hopefully everything works out...and soon.
GeoJustGeo is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off