Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1031 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #30901 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Thanks Hop. Honestly I have not touched anything for months...I just finally had time to pull the gear out and show some of the Yamaha's capability as I said I would 6-8weeks ago.

To be honest the no EQ response is pretty good which is why I did not keep the AMDC because it was not worth the small improvement in sound for the cost. It definitely sounds a little better with the peak pulled down some but it's not drastic like it would be if the peak were around 50hz.
Couple questions for you. I see that the pre-out voltage for the A1060 subwoofer is still 1.0V. Do you find that satisfactory? Across three different models of Yamaha (one is my A3040, two other models belong to friends) I found the subwoofers to be dull and un-lively, all units have 1.0V pre-out for subwoofers. Before I got the AntiMode 8033, I would use Y-Splitters to double the input voltage into the sub amps. (had to do this with S3000, V3600, and SB13U) Once I got the AntiMode, however, I never had to use the Y-Splitters again and the measured voltage from the AntiMode is several hundred percent larger than the voltage coming out from the receiver pre-out. For what it's worth, bumping the trim or even going +6 in the levels did nothing compared to the incredible audible and tactile experience that bumping the voltage (and lowering the levels to compensate) could accomplish in my limited testing on the three different models of subwoofers and three Yamaha receiver models.

On my A3040, YPAO did minimal adjustments on the subwoofer channels automatically, but like you have mentioned several times in this thread before, YPAO is awesome in the fact we can copy the measured settings to a manual PEQ and tweak to our liking. I see in your screenshots you were in manual PEQ setup - did you have to also make some manual adjustments or was YPAO able to get your graph more flat? I was also wondering what you let YPAO set your subwoofer to before bumping up the levels; I let mine calibrate to -9 (out of 10) and then go to about -3 or -2 to get to my liking.

Thanks!
Travis
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post #30902 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by k1n3t1k View Post
Couple questions for you. I see that the pre-out voltage for the A1060 subwoofer is still 1.0V. Do you find that satisfactory? Across three different models of Yamaha (one is my A3040, two other models belong to friends) I found the subwoofers to be dull and un-lively, all units have 1.0V pre-out for subwoofers. Before I got the AntiMode 8033, I would use Y-Splitters to double the input voltage into the sub amps. (had to do this with S3000, V3600, and SB13U) Once I got the AntiMode, however, I never had to use the Y-Splitters again and the measured voltage from the AntiMode is several hundred percent larger than the voltage coming out from the receiver pre-out. For what it's worth, bumping the trim or even going +6 in the levels did nothing compared to the incredible audible and tactile experience that bumping the voltage (and lowering the levels to compensate) could accomplish in my limited testing on the three different models of subwoofers and three Yamaha receiver models.

On my A3040, YPAO did minimal adjustments on the subwoofer channels automatically, but like you have mentioned several times in this thread before, YPAO is awesome in the fact we can copy the measured settings to a manual PEQ and tweak to our liking. I see in your screenshots you were in manual PEQ setup - did you have to also make some manual adjustments or was YPAO able to get your graph more flat? I was also wondering what you let YPAO set your subwoofer to before bumping up the levels; I let mine calibrate to -9 (out of 10) and then go to about -3 or -2 to get to my liking.

Thanks!
Travis
Pre out voltage is not going to effect how the sub sounds imo.... I have ran y splitters and used both inputs and sound quality was never effected, the levels simply raised +6db. I have never had any issue with 1v...I set my gains @ 11:00 and YPAO set the sub trim -4.5 which I bumped up to 0. I also never noticed any improvement in how "lively" my subs sounded when I had the AMDC in the chain and it has a very hot pre out voltage.


Ypao on it's own does very little to the subs...all it did on my 1060 was bump the 150hz region +3db. Which is fine, because I really did not go into this purchase expecting YPAO to do anything with the subs.... The point to all of this was to show that the new 60 series Yamahas have a 4 band peq built in for the sub channel so you can manually adjust you subs response to your liking and not what some program thinks is best.


I do not believe the 3040 or 3050 has a PEQ for the subs, just a 9 band PEQ for the speakers just so we are on the same page?
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post #30903 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:01 AM
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LOL… good point. I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

Man, how warped are we?
Instead of "warped", I like to think of it as "enlightened".
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post #30904 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I do not believe the 3040 or 3050 has a PEQ for the subs, just a 9 band PEQ for the speakers just so we are on the same page?
Thanks for responding. Actually, YPAO for the 3040 has manual adjustments for the subwoofers as well. I can't recollect exactly how many filters it has, but I want to say 4 for the subwfoofers and 7 for the speakers. However, it only goes down to 31.3Hz for the lowest filter, so you can't adjust below that, at least on the 3040. Looks like on your 1060 you can go down to 15.6Hz!

If you have the time or want to experiment, I would try out the Y-splitter and then do -6 on your subwoofer levels to see how you feel about the change. I know the math doesn't make sense of it, but my ears sure do. Even my neighbor says their pictures vibrated more on their walls after the change.

Travis
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post #30905 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:14 AM
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For my next act, the disappearing V1800! It still needs stain and sealant, but the first box cover fits great. It makes me sad to cover the boys up, but it'll net me enough WAF points for a 15V endtable. 😃


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post #30906 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:34 AM
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Are those MTM-210T's already snatched up? I am in the pre-stages of building a home theatre (graph paper, measuring tape, and crazy ideas) and want to dress it out with PSA gear (it will be 11'X18'X7.5' when finished), I might be persuaded to grab some speakers now if it saves me some money...PM me if they are available!

(I thought I already posted this but it didn' seem to show up...)
Please pop into chat when time allows. I don't think AVS likes OEMs using their PM space for "sales" stuff.. Thanks!

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post #30907 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:59 AM
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Hey Tom, you and I chatted through your website chat function on Sunday. I'm the guy with the mid 90's era dual Yamaha YST-500 subwoofers http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio...w500_black__u/

I bet you thought it was an incredible coincidence you talked to 2 people with old, servo drive subs in a week!
I'm not sure but I don't think those are "servo" in the traditional sense. IIRC they use a simple negative feedback circuit? The way most think of "servo" is a circuit that includes some type of physical presence in the motor of the woofer to "sense" the woofer motion and correct it against the input signal.

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post #30908 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
For my next act, the disappearing V1800! It still needs stain and sealant, but the first box cover fits great. It makes me sad to cover the boys up, but it'll net me enough WAF points for a 15V endtable. 😃

I would be interested to see a before and after graph since you are blocking the driver. I thought all sound comes out of the driver until you are at a frequency around port tune. I would be surprised if that didn't have and detrimental effect.

Do you have a way to measure?
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post #30909 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I would be interested to see a before and after graph since you are blocking the driver. I thought all sound comes out of the driver until you are at a frequency around port tune. I would be surprised if that didn't have and detrimental effect.

Do you have a way to measure?
Sound quality was a concern of mine as well since these are purely cosmetic additions.

Yes, I have a lot of measuring equipment and use REW, and I will be doing a full system recalibration shortly, also adding a second MBM arriving today. I'm just hoping for the best since I've never covered a driver up like this before. Worst case scenario I remove the boards off the front or scrap the box covers all together, only one way to find out. 😃

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post #30910 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I thought all sound comes out of the driver until you are at a frequency around port tune. I would be surprised if that didn't have and detrimental effect.
Sound comes from both at all times. Port tune is where the freq that both the driver and the port (wavelength inside the box at which the the port length and diameter is tuned) complement one another and provide the greatest boost in SPL. Enclosing the driver will undoubtedly have an effect on the SPL and sound quality as you are adding modes in a very small area and preventing the direct radiation to room modes. Just thinking (typing) out loud...
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post #30911 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Sound quality was a concern of mine as well since these are purely cosmetic additions.

Yes, I have a lot of measuring equipment and use REW, and I will be doing a full system recalibration shortly, also adding a second MBM arriving today. I'm just hoping for the best since I've never covered a driver up like this before. Worst case scenario I remove the boards off the front or scrap the box covers all together, only one way to find out. 😃
Maybe if it's a problem turn the sub to face the wall and open up the back?
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post #30912 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Sound comes from both at all times. Port tune is where the freq that both the driver and the port (wavelength inside the box at which the the port length and diameter is tuned) complement one another and provide the greatest boost in SPL. Enclosing the driver will undoubtedly have an effect on the SPL and sound quality as you are adding modes in a very small area and preventing the direct radiation to room modes. Just thinking (typing) out loud...
The possible deleterious effects of covering the driver already have me leaning towards cutting the front boards off and building the next one without a face. The trial and error and time spent A/B listening, measuring, and recalibrating would be more time consuming than building a whole new enclosure. I have a feeling this will save me more than one headache in the long run and should still grant acceptable WAF points. Also, with the massive amount of wood furniture that is already in the room, I'm OK with one less wood facade.
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I would be interested to see a before and after graph since you are blocking the driver. I thought all sound comes out of the driver until you are at a frequency around port tune. I would be surprised if that didn't have and detrimental effect.

Do you have a way to measure?
It might not affect sound quality as much as you guys think. I mean what would the difference be in a downward facing sub designe? Maybe I'm wrong but It's just something I thought about

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post #30914 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 01:11 PM
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Not sure how the slats of wood would effect it.

Seems like it would be an easy experiment to run with and without using REW. It might not make a difference at all.
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post #30915 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Not sure how the slats of wood would effect it.

Seems like it would be an easy experiment to run with and without using REW. It might not make a difference at all.
Ya I'm interested in seeing the results. My prediction would say it will only have slight affects. I don't forsee and drastic differences but I could be wrong

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post #30916 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 02:03 PM
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I really hopes he is able to graph it.

I just wonder if there is enough open space for the sound to escape. Looks like 95% of the driver is covered with only the port open. Not sure how far away the box is from the driver

Who knows, could have a better response with it on!
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post #30917 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 02:12 PM
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It is part documentary and part concert footage.

The documentary part documents Roger Waters' quest to find out how and where his father died in the war. Taken in whole, it actually does add good meaning to the whole show, but if you are into raw concert footage, it will require you to skip the documentary tracks.
Not sure, but I'd say it is pretty close to a 75% to 25% concert to documentary ratio.


After having an audience shot version of the shows at the United Center I am actually disappointed with the Blu-ray RW released. The AUD version is so well done it really captures the concert much better IMO even dismissing his added father's bio segments his concert footage just isn't as engaging to me:


Roger Waters The Wall Live 2010
Filmed at The United Center, Chicago, IL September 20 & 21
Additional footage filmed at The Nassau Coliseum, Long Island, NY October 12 & 13

Format: NTSC Blu-ray (1920 x 1080 widescreen) CBR 20, 5.1 Dolby Digital Stereo (48kHz)

iShoot: tapehead 2
iEdit: rontoon
iRemaster: MOB
iCheck: Big Ed
iDesign: Christopher for Ediskrad Studios
iHelp: Rick Julian, Brian P, volcso, selbst93, Robert Perry (additional photopraphy)

Video: Sony HDR-CX520V @ 1920x1080i (AVCHD) > MPEG2 720x480 (16 x 9 widescreen, CBR 8)
Audio: (tapehead2): SP-CMC-8 (AT943s) > SP-SPSB-10 > M10 (24/44.1) > FLAC > WAVE (front left, center, and right speakers)
Audio: (Rick B) Mics: DPA 4022, Recorder: Sound Devices 722 (16/44.1K) > FLAC > WAVE (rear speakers and LFE)

The foundation of all the footage (and audio) was taken from 20/09. Additional shots are from the 21/09, 12/10 and 13/10 shows and all are from tapehead2's HD master files.

Thanks to all those who shared their footage for this project. Thanks once again to the HVR team, MOB for the appropriate EQ work and Big Ed for checking and correcting, and for the quick turn around. Thanks to Chris for the artwork, you always have the coolest sigs on the forum. Thanks to Rick B. for this and 30+ years of recording shows in Chicago.

But the biggest thanks of all go to my new friend tapehead2 (TH2) for shooting these shows so brilliantly. After posting the initial clips to YouTube I contacted TH2 to see if a multi-camera edit was ever considered. The response was that TH2 wished for the shows to be shared "as is". I decided to cut together a few songs just to show TH2 the possibilities and after watching them on YouTube agreed to send me the master HD footage. The 20/09 and 21/09 shows cut together beautifully, but I still wished that we had a few more shots covered. Since TH2 had tickets to the Nassau Coliseum shows and was planning on shooting them as well I offered some camera suggestions, a lot of them in fact, to get some of the shots I still wanted. The dude abides. So thanks to TH2 for the ultimate sacrifice of not being able to enjoy these shows like the rest of us have. That's a hefty price, especially when considering that Pink Floyd isn't on the top of TH2's favorites list. Perhaps inspired by being embraced by the PF "communities" has changed that? Also a big thanks to Rick Julian for his patience and help with creating the Blu-ray version. And finally a thanks to Roger for putting on such a kick ass show.

This was great fun and a labour of love. The biggest challenge was not in the synching up of all the various shows. Since this is all run to a precise click track synchronisation was fairly easy. The challenge was finding matching choreography from shot to shot while at the same time retaining my shot preference and length as well. I'm sure you'll find a few transitions that reveal such continuity blunders, but I'll bet that there's even more that you don't catch. It's amazing how much did actually work. It's all part of the fun and we hope you enjoy the product of our collaboration.

Originally released on Veteran's Day (November 11, 2010) and dedicated to all fallen loved ones.
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post #30918 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 02:26 PM
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I was 19 at the time, I wish I could have seen the Roger Waters version, I'm sure it was awesome.

The question remains about the disc...

Pink Floyd The Wall or Roger Waters The Wall?

Or Roger's version filmed on top of the Berlin Wall in 1990 with its huge cast of guest performers?
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post #30919 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm not sure but I don't think those are "servo" in the traditional sense. IIRC they use a simple negative feedback circuit? The way most think of "servo" is a circuit that includes some type of physical presence in the motor of the woofer to "sense" the woofer motion and correct it against the input signal.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I'm pretty sure it was marketing hype. I re-read the user manual and they have a section that describes their servo design. It talks about the ported aspect of the box and an amplifier design they call "negative impedance drive circuit". No mention of a feedback mechanism of any type. Only thing I could think if is if they monitor the impedance of the speaker coil and somehow determine its position in the magnet structure. Seems far fetched which is why I suspect it is marketing hype.
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post #30920 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I really hopes he is able to graph it.

I just wonder if there is enough open space for the sound to escape. Looks like 95% of the driver is covered with only the port open. Not sure how far away the box is from the driver

Who knows, could have a better response with it on!
Haha, I hope I have a better response due to it, because I am working the next 3 nights and will have to wait and measure this weekend or later, busy busy. The box cover is overlaid fairly close on all sides, around a half inch or less spacing, but the front boards are 2" from the driver to leave room for the grill that I took off. This is similar breathing room to my downfiring cylinder, which is why I hoped this wouldn't impact the response much...we'll see! 😃

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Emerson Lake & Palmer.

Okay, not one of my favorites growing up, a buddy of mine gave me his ELP albums (ELP's self titled, Tarkus, Brain Salad, Works volumes 1 & 2) all in mint condition.

Playing these albums with the V 1800, jeez....

Keith Emerson's organ probably moved my dental work around, the V1800 digs that deep
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post #30922 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 08:27 PM
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Don't forget to check your CC features. Lots of them will extend the warranty for an extra year for you for free.
Hey Zeus, could you elaborate on this CC extending warranty another year, nice feature I wasn't aware of, THANKS.....................
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It might not affect sound quality as much as you guys think. I mean what would the difference be in a downward facing sub designe? Maybe I'm wrong but It's just something I thought about
Hey new when are you going to post a compression graph with your quad T18s, looking forward to seeing when they start to compress if at all........
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post #30924 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 08:57 PM
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Hey new when are you going to post a compression graph with your quad T18s, looking forward to seeing when they start to compress if at all........
This weekend most likely. It's gonna be crazy lol
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post #30925 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:08 PM
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This weekend most likely. It's gonna be crazy lol
Looking forward to it my friend, be prepared, ear muffs may help..........
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post #30926 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 09:25 PM
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Looking forward to it my friend, be prepared, ear muffs may help..........
Ya I might have to put some on. I'm literally kinda scared hahah
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post #30927 of 53156 Old 01-11-2017, 10:47 PM
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Couple questions for you. I see that the pre-out voltage for the A1060 subwoofer is still 1.0V. Do you find that satisfactory?
I've had no issue with SQ from my A2020, I even have it running through a DSP with an output voltage of .9v. Everything sounds crisp, clean and rather thunderous when called for. A lower output voltage just requires a higher input gain on the sub, no big deal and it sounds great...

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post #30928 of 53156 Old 01-12-2017, 06:21 AM
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Hey Zeus, could you elaborate on this CC extending warranty another year, nice feature I wasn't aware of, THANKS.....................
A lot of the major credit card companies offer extended warranties if you purchase through authorized dealers (like AVS). I got an extra year from mine, with the option to buy more years of warranty.

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post #30929 of 53156 Old 01-12-2017, 07:16 AM
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A lot of the major credit card companies offer extended warranties if you purchase through authorized dealers (like AVS). I got an extra year from mine, with the option to buy more years of warranty.
I would also add to this post that you can get other benefits like "satisfaction guarantee" and product protection (insurance for breaks/drops/spills) for the first 90 days and other like benefits with different cards. The Amex I have offers a number of these benefits and I try to use it exclusively when buying av equipment. Discover offers price protection, some OLED buyers have ended up getting some pretty darn good prices ($2100 for a 65") on their displays by price matching some of the on-line retailers. Sorry for the off topic post.

Jeff - I assume you've got a credit card or two, I'd be surprised if one or both don't offer the warranty extension, its been a feature for most credit cards for awhile now.
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post #30930 of 53156 Old 01-12-2017, 10:42 AM
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Hey Zeus, could you elaborate on this CC extending warranty another year, nice feature I wasn't aware of, THANKS.....................

As Bill and smurray said, most CCs offer that as a feature. I have Chase and Citi cards that both do. Just pull up your account and look for benefits or features, or just call them and ask. When you pay for an item with that card, they extend the warranty for one year for free. Also, as the guys mentioned, they usually have "price protection" included as well. It varies from card to card. Some cover you for 30 and some go up to 90 days. If you see it advertised cheaper than what you paid within that period, contact them and they will refund you the difference. My Citi card does it automatically (Price Rewind). However, they don't scour the net very hard. If you search, you can usually find a cheaper price within the time period.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
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