Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1043 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31261 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:46 AM
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I posted the graphs right from the product pages, the s3000i is 2-3 db higher in the top sweep or am I reading it wrong since you said the s3600 is higher? So you don't go by the top sweep in each that is in purple?

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Where did you come up with the 3000 having more output via the compression sweeps? I see the s3600 having 2-3db more through most of the bandwidth...let alone the S3601 that will be replacing the 3600.
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post #31262 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 03:40 AM
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If that is the case then it isn't really a long term output compression reading is it?

According to this article in section 3 http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...ubwoofer-tests

"the sweep is repeated in rapid succession, each time with the level increased by 5dB, until the subwoofer ceases to increase in output or is driven into limiting, over-excursion, distortion or other obvious duress"

So was the test stopped early and could have gotten higher or did hit its limit like according to the article is what the highest reading is showing? Just curious why the 15's are higher than the 18 according to my understanding of the test and interpreting the results but then the 18s are higher if you look at the CEA-2010 RATINGS on the same product page.

I am not trying to nit picky or find flaws with PSA(I like their subs) I am just interested to understand how that works or if it is a mistake. Because I would imagine most people buy the s3600 hoping for higher output. Or is it just after running the compression sweep and the voice coils heat up the 15s stay cooler or more efficient? Hence they show higher output in the compression sweeps?

Also reading more the CEA-2010 RATINGS are also done using sweeps, section 3 http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...asurement-data

"Distortion isn't measured during these sweep tests but levels are increased for each progressive sweep until compression is observed or mechanical or audible distortion is heard. If mechanical noise or distortion is heard, the sweep is redone at a reduced level until the output sounds clean. That level is then recorded as the maximum sustained sweep level for the product."

And just below that it talks about amplifier output vs driver output limited and how they will shower lower results in an amplifier limited sub. It is getting too late so I'll have to look at it tomorrow and maybe Tom will have chimed in to explain it better. He is always good about making things easier to understand.


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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
looks to me like the 3600 could of been swept higher.
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post #31263 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 06:24 AM
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Question - you found a spot in your room where your old sub sounds good and balanced in your listening locations. If you upgrade to a more powerful sub, will it sound good in that same location?
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post #31264 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I posted the graphs right from the product pages, the s3000i is 2-3 db higher in the top sweep or am I reading it wrong since you said the s3600 is higher? So you don't go by the top sweep in each that is in purple?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
If that is the case then it isn't really a long term output compression reading is it?

According to this article in section 3 http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...ubwoofer-tests

"the sweep is repeated in rapid succession, each time with the level increased by 5dB, until the subwoofer ceases to increase in output or is driven into limiting, over-excursion, distortion or other obvious duress"

So was the test stopped early and could have gotten higher or did hit its limit like according to the article is what the highest reading is showing? Just curious why the 15's are higher than the 18 according to my understanding of the test and interpreting the results but then the 18s are higher if you look at the CEA-2010 RATINGS on the same product page.

I am not trying to nit picky or find flaws with PSA(I like their subs) I am just interested to understand how that works or if it is a mistake. Because I would imagine most people buy the s3600 hoping for higher output. Or is it just after running the compression sweep and the voice coils heat up the 15s stay cooler or more efficient? Hence they show higher output in the compression sweeps?

Also reading more the CEA-2010 RATINGS are also done using sweeps, section 3 http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...asurement-data

"Distortion isn't measured during these sweep tests but levels are increased for each progressive sweep until compression is observed or mechanical or audible distortion is heard. If mechanical noise or distortion is heard, the sweep is redone at a reduced level until the output sounds clean. That level is then recorded as the maximum sustained sweep level for the product."

And just below that it talks about amplifier output vs driver output limited and how they will shower lower results in an amplifier limited sub. It is getting too late so I'll have to look at it tomorrow and maybe Tom will have chimed in to explain it better. He is always good about making things easier to understand.
The S3600 should have more output. If it didn't why would PSA even sell it when the S3000i is smaller, cheaper, and lighter?

That being said, I am not sure why the 3000i is showing higher output on the compression sweep above 30hz. I am guessing there is a error there with the graph scaling or perhaps the Voice coils in the Lab15 handle Long term power better as you mentioned.. Also I said the S3600 looks like it could of been swept higher because it's not compressing as hard on the low end. The purple line increases everywhere above 16hz, where the purple line on the 3000i does not show a increase from the yellow below 25hz or so. The 18's should be more efficient judging how much output they gain above 30hz with the same amplifier power compared to the 15" subs.


Edit*


Also keep in mind that Long term testing(both power and compression) are basically just tests to determine how well the subwoofer is engineered(limiting circuitry etc...) and built to handle abuse. The testing method used is FAR more demanding then any movie or music content available, so very seldom if ever would you drive a sub to it's thermal limitations unless you played a 50hz sine wave test tone at max volume for long durations of time. Cea 2010 max burst testing best replicates rear world source material and is why it's commonly used to compare output between subs and not thermal testing such as long term power and compression.
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Last edited by basshead81; 01-25-2017 at 07:48 AM.
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post #31265 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
Question - you found a spot in your room where your old sub sounds good and balanced in your listening locations. If you upgrade to a more powerful sub, will it sound good in that same location?
Possibly...but keep in mind port and driver orientation can cause a change in response if the distance is shorter/longer to the wall compared to the previous sub.


For example, A sub with the driver and port on the front baffle placed in the same spot as a sub with the driver front facing but rear ported could yield a different in room response.
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post #31266 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post
Truth be told, I am really scared of doing this. Ignorance is bliss some times. I am happy most of the times. If I realize I have nulls etc... what are my choices? I already have enough acoustic panels in the family area. A new wife is not a possibility May be a new house...
Yeah, according to your previous post, your options are very limited. If you are unable to place the sub(s) where they work best, you are kind of stuck with what you got.

However, there have been many guys on here that come up against some pretty good WAF, but after they get their new, expensive subs, somehow new placement options just seem to appear. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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post #31267 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 12:43 PM
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You obviously haven't seen my previous posts lol. The avs page isn't working from my phone and I don't know how to change it from taptalk, if it's even possible. Laptop took a **** and I really don't need a computer for anything. I'm certainly not getting one just to change my signature lol.
Go to the library!
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post #31268 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post
Truth be told, I am really scared of doing this. Ignorance is bliss some times. I am happy most of the times. If I realize I have nulls etc... what are my choices? I already have enough acoustic panels in the family area. A new wife is not a possibility May be a new house...
How and why did you place acoustic panels with no measuring equip? Was your before & after night and day by ear?
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post #31269 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I posted the graphs right from the product pages, the s3000i is 2-3 db higher in the top sweep or am I reading it wrong since you said the s3600 is higher? So you don't go by the top sweep in each that is in purple?
Best to pop into chat and ask Tom V. Last I chatted with him comparing the S1500 and S3000i sweeps, the S3000i sweeps did not have the +2dB (dual opposed) compensation curve applied (which is still the case). At that time, there were no sweeps for the 3600i posted (or S1800). The S1800 and S3600i sweeps look to be quick and dirty and not true max compression.

My personal measurements show that dual S1500s are 2dB above a single S3000i. I'm really curious to to see the S1801 vs S3000i measurements. The dual-opposed is better for far-field than nearfield IME.
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post #31270 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 01:55 PM
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How and why did you place acoustic panels with no measuring equip? Was your before & after night and day by ear?

The lay out of my speakers was ONE way where the right speaker was like 1 feet from the the side wall and the bass was horrible. That's when I contacted GIK and shared my pics. They recommended a different set up and some acoustic panesl and bass traps at the least. so I got them. Nothing fancy.. two corner bass traps on each side and a monster bass trap behind the listening couch.


More than all the panels, I think the changed orientation of the speaker set up really made a dramatic difference. Basically the advise given to me was if there is a huge opening in the listening area, the best bet is to make that open area is BEHIND the MLP and not on to one side of the MLP.
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Congrats! Just curious why you opted to not get a Rythmik sub as a package deal from Ascend?
It's now been several weeks since I got my new Ascend speakers...it is unfortunate that I didn't order them together, but that's the way it goes. My S1500 is scheduled to arrive tomorrow! But I can't do anything with it until Saturday afternoon...it will sit in its delivery box for nearly 2 days and beg me to put it into my system.
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post #31272 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:02 PM
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For level matching of the mains and the subwoofer, is there a good CD to use? Or should I hook my laptop up to the outboard DAC and use a downloaded file (and if so, can you recommend a good one for this purpose)? I have a radio shack sound level meter (will have to get new batteries, however).
Thanks!
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post #31273 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwb View Post
For level matching of the mains and the subwoofer, is there a good CD to use? Or should I hook my laptop up to the outboard DAC and use a downloaded file (and if so, can you recommend a good one for this purpose)? I have a radio shack sound level meter (will have to get new batteries, however).
Thanks!
I would just download REW and use your soundcard output (3.5mm stereo to stereo RCA) with an adapter and playback some pink noise. You don't need to have a calibration mic to use the software. It will bark about not one being present, but won't prevent you from using the gamut of tools within.

Travis
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post #31274 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
....there have been many guys on here that come up against some pretty good WAF, but after they get their new, expensive subs, somehow new placement options just seem to appear. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Constant nagging on my part has helped with WAF.


Still working on her letting me get acoustic panels hung, but she is having none of it. My next plan is to make some DIY panels with fabric color matched to the wall and ceiling. Hang them up when she isn't looking and see what happens.
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post #31275 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
If that is the case then it isn't really a long term output compression reading is it?

According to this article in section 3 http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...ubwoofer-tests

"the sweep is repeated in rapid succession, each time with the level increased by 5dB, until the subwoofer ceases to increase in output or is driven into limiting, over-excursion, distortion or other obvious duress"

So was the test stopped early and could have gotten higher or did hit its limit like according to the article is what the highest reading is showing? Just curious why the 15's are higher than the 18 according to my understanding of the test and interpreting the results but then the 18s are higher if you look at the CEA-2010 RATINGS on the same product page.

I am not trying to nit picky or find flaws with PSA(I like their subs) I am just interested to understand how that works or if it is a mistake. Because I would imagine most people buy the s3600 hoping for higher output. Or is it just after running the compression sweep and the voice coils heat up the 15s stay cooler or more efficient? Hence they show higher output in the compression sweeps?

Also reading more the CEA-2010 RATINGS are also done using sweeps, section 3 http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...asurement-data

"Distortion isn't measured during these sweep tests but levels are increased for each progressive sweep until compression is observed or mechanical or audible distortion is heard. If mechanical noise or distortion is heard, the sweep is redone at a reduced level until the output sounds clean. That level is then recorded as the maximum sustained sweep level for the product."

And just below that it talks about amplifier output vs driver output limited and how they will shower lower results in an amplifier limited sub. It is getting too late so I'll have to look at it tomorrow and maybe Tom will have chimed in to explain it better. He is always good about making things easier to understand.


To best of my knowledge CEA-2010 testing uses tone bursts, not sweep.

WRT your question I understand your point, but IMHO it may also be that some test is sensitive enough to show an output difference (CEA 2010), and some not (sweep) in this particular comparison. To me the next question is not just whether S3000 does indeed have equal or better outputs at some frequencies, but also maybe the test itself is not sensitive with this particular measurement. BTW, where it really counts, the low frequency, S3000 & S3600 are the same: both curves hit 106 dB at 20 hz.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.brentbutterworth.com/cea-...nt-manual.html
A series of 6.5-cycle tone bursts centered at 63, 50, 40, 31.5, 25 and 20 Hz is played through the subwoofer. These tone bursts (waveform shown below) are intended to simulate the signals that a subwoofer would receive when playing typical music or movies. They are also short enough in duration that they are unlikely to damage a subwoofer due to thermal overload (i.e., burning out the voice coil or the amplifier output transistors) You can find these tones in 256 kbps MP3 form on the Tech page of this website. Here’s the waveform of the 63 Hz tone burst. Note that the peak level of the tone burst is about -1 dBFS.
The technician raises the playback level for the tone bursts until the distortion exceeds any of the thresholds set by CEA-2010. For example, the threshold for the 2nd harmonic (126 Hz for a 63 Hz tone burst) is -10 dB below the peak level of the fundamental tone. So if the peak level of the fundamental is 120 dB SPL, the level of the 2nd harmonic cannot exceed 110 dB SPL. Here’s the complete list of CEA-2010 distortion thresholds:

2nd harmonic: -10 dB
3rd harmonic: -15 dB
4th and 5th harmonics: -20 dB
6th, 7th, 8th harmonics: -30 dB
9th and higher harmonics: -40 dB

Regards, Can
My System & Theta Casablanca Mini-Review (CB IVa setup help HERE) Uncontrolled passion for music, and sound.
Interesting Audio Diagrams :-) & High-End Speaker Reviews
JTR Subwoofer Thread I don't always listen to subwoofers, but when I do, it's JTR :-).

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post #31276 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwb View Post
For level matching of the mains and the subwoofer, is there a good CD to use? Or should I hook my laptop up to the outboard DAC and use a downloaded file (and if so, can you recommend a good one for this purpose)? I have a radio shack sound level meter (will have to get new batteries, however).
Thanks!
Along with k1n3t1k's excellent advice, if you are not using full-band pink noise, don't forget to use the Rat Shack correction table when taking measurements!

Is there a reason you don't want to use your AVR's internal tones?
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post #31277 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 02:41 PM
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@Hopinater sorry if I missed the post but what's the ETA on the new v3601s?

1600 cubic foot sealed room! Samsung 8500 curved 4k
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Quad PSA T18s!!!!!!
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@Hopinater sorry if I missed the post but what's the ETA on the new v3601s?
Last I heard around mid February. I'm getting pretty excited.
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Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

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Last I heard around mid February. I'm getting pretty excited.
Please post a video if possible. I wanna watch those babies flex!

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For those of you looking to get a umik-1, cross spectrum now has them in stock. I just grabbed mine! I'm sure they will go quickly as I've seen a number of AVS members wanting one recently.
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post #31281 of 53115 Old 01-25-2017, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent A View Post
Constant nagging on my part has helped with WAF.


Still working on her letting me get acoustic panels hung, but she is having none of it. My next plan is to make some DIY panels with fabric color matched to the wall and ceiling. Hang them up when she isn't looking and see what happens.
My wife just backed into my 640i GC with her X5! 😲🤐🤒

I think its time for some acoustic panels and perhaps a 4th PSA sub.😡
15S, S3000i, or S1801?🤔
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I sold my dual elemental designs A5-350 subs a week ago and got in on the preorder for the 3601. I have not had bass for a week. I think I am starting to go into withdrawals...! I would typically watch about an hour of TV a night. I am finding myself not wanting to watch at all.

HELP!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Along with k1n3t1k's excellent advice, if you are not using full-band pink noise, don't forget to use the Rat Shack correction table when taking measurements!

Is there a reason you don't want to use your AVR's internal tones?
The reason is that I have no AVR (at least not with this stereo system) and so internal tones. I'm using an Apt-Holman pre-amp as the front end for this music-only (stereo) system. So, I need something to give me test tones.

Thanks for your suggestions (along with k1n3tlk). I have my Radio Shack sound level meter out (and the batteries appear to be OK) and have the correction table available. Now I just need the sub and the time to set it up! Hopefully Saturday afternoon.
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I sold my dual elemental designs A5-350 subs a week ago and got in on the preorder for the 3601. I have not had bass for a week. I think I am starting to go into withdrawals...! I would typically watch about an hour of TV a night. I am finding myself not wanting to watch at all.

HELP!

I have a new sub ordered as well, Tom said he hoped before Valentines day.
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I have a new sub ordered as well, Tom said he hoped before Valentines day.
I sure hope so. I've been getting anxious!
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Should I return my V1800? I received it in mid to late December and now I have two concerns.


1. I can now get the higher quality V1801 for the same price
2. I can no longer match the V1800 with another one because it is no longer offered.


I am still in my return window and am just wondering about your thoughts.
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post #31287 of 53115 Old 01-26-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jmgag03 View Post
Should I return my V1800? I received it in mid to late December and now I have two concerns.


1. I can now get the higher quality V1801 for the same price
2. I can no longer match the V1800 with another one because it is no longer offered.


I am still in my return window and am just wondering about your thoughts.
Yep

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #31288 of 53115 Old 01-26-2017, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgag03 View Post
Should I return my V1800? I received it in mid to late December and now I have two concerns.


1. I can now get the higher quality V1801 for the same price
2. I can no longer match the V1800 with another one because it is no longer offered.


I am still in my return window and am just wondering about your thoughts.
It will not be the same price because you will have to pay return shipping which will be 100-150.00. Also, I would not say the V1801 is higher quality, just a driver upgrade that has more output below 30hz. The only way you will notice that difference is if you are currently hitting the V1800's limits. 95% of everything you listen to is above 30hz, so you more then likely will not notice a huge difference between the 2 unless all you do is play demo material at max volume that is nothing but 16-30hz material.
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post #31289 of 53115 Old 01-26-2017, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgag03 View Post
2. I can no longer match the V1800 with another one because it is no longer offered.
There is no problem pairing a V1800 with a V1801. Tom will likely give you a nice discount if you keep the V1800 and add the 1801. Personally, I would talk to Tom about a deep discount on an outlet V1800. My 2 S1500s and S3000i are all b-stock. 2 subs are better than 1 and 3 turned out to be perfect for me.
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post #31290 of 53115 Old 01-26-2017, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgag03 View Post
Should I return my V1800? I received it in mid to late December and now I have two concerns.


1. I can now get the higher quality V1801 for the same price
2. I can no longer match the V1800 with another one because it is no longer offered.


I am still in my return window and am just wondering about your thoughts.
All of the original 18" based products are still available, we were just out of stock on them for a short period. We're updating the site to reflect this asap. Also, all of the new 18" products will integrate fine with the originals. For example, one V1800 and one V1801 will work fine together.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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