Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1155 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 59898Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #34621 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 04:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 908
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Just FYI, some PSA users have doubts about the CEA 2010 results by Brent Butterworth, so...
I fail to see your point...



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34622 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 04:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 6,147
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2491 Post(s)
Liked: 3883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I made a compilation of measurements to help prospective buyers evaluate the performance of the V1801 vs my S3000i and Seaton F18+ (PDF attached). If you take into account the chuffing as being the real MAx SPL measurement the sealed subs outperform the V1801. I would love to test the S1801 to compare as I believe the sealed subs should be able to take full advantage of the extra 3dB of the 01 drivers.

While the numbers may be similar, the V1801 has much more tactile energy than the sealed counterparts.
This supports my belief that ported subs will have a lot more tactile effect than sealed even at the same SPL. If I get my painting project done in time, I might build two ported cabs for my sealed DIY subs just for that reason. Will be a fun comparison.

Last edited by bear123; 07-13-2017 at 05:42 PM.
bear123 is online now  
post #34623 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 05:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3403 Post(s)
Liked: 4159
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
I fail to see your point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Is it just me, or do we suddenly have a lot of shade-tree Josh Riccis all in the sudden who have the proper knowledge, skill, and experience to properly measure subwoofer performance?

Observations...

1.) Unless you're one of a few audio reviewers, Ricci, Butterworth, and a few others, then I take your so-called measurements of any subwoofer with a very tiny grain of salt. I don't see this philosophy doing me wrong anytime soon.
The point I am trying to make is that some here have a problem with Butterworth's numbers. They think the results are inconsistent at best. That is all.

If you think about it, there are only less than a handful of testers out there doing CEA 2010 tests: Ricci, Butterworth and James Larson. Ricci is not getting products from PSA. James Larson (ShadyJ) is never gonna test a PSA product. Butterworth's results are deemed inconsistent at best by some here... That leaves... no one. Yes, you got it!

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 07-13-2017 at 10:37 PM.
chucky7 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34624 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 06:05 PM
Advanced Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 908
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
The point I am trying to make is that some here have a problem with Butterworth's numbers. They think the results are inconsistent at best. That is all.

If you think about it, there are only less than a handful of testers out there doing CEA 2010 tests: Ricci, Butterworth and James Larson. Ricci is not getting products from PSA, James Larson (ShadyJ) is never gonna test a PSA product. Butterworth's results are deemed inconsistent at best by some here... That leaves... no one. Yes, you got it!
"The point I am trying to make is that some here have a problem with Butterworth's numbers. They think the results are inconsistent at best. That is all."

Um, bandwagon much? Ok, I don't agree with them.

"If you think about it, there are only less than a handful of testers out there doing CEA 2010 tests"

Actually, my point is that there are a growing number of shadetree audio gurus with audio tests. I'd argue that there is far more than a handful and decent handful I trust.

"Ricci, Butterworth"

Whom I trust, among a few others...

and James Larson.

Whom I consider a shadetree guru who when not on his PSA witch hunt gives lapdances for Geno's ego at TOS.

"Ricci is not getting products from PSA,"

So? I have no need to play armchair CEO and tell Tom what to do with his business.

"James Larson (ShadyJ) is never gonna test a PSA product."

It's hard to do much when you're wearing Geno's favorite color tutu.

"Butterworth's results are deemed inconsistent at best by some here."

I disagree those individuals

".. That leaves... no one. Yes, you got it! "

No, I don't "got it." I disagree further.



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #34625 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 06:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 6,147
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2491 Post(s)
Liked: 3883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Well Bear did you get the 3300 setup yet, if so how you liking it compared to the the old timer Yamaha? Big step up I presume?
Ran Audyssey and, although I don't think the low end is right yet due to having to change the crossover from 40 Hz Large with my $159 6.5" bookshelf speakers to 110 Hz, the difference it made everywhere else was astounding. With my old base model Yamaha, I couldn't tell much difference in the sound before and after running YPAO, and that showed in the measurements in REW which didn't change or improve much. The difference with Audyssey is HUGE. Like did I buy different speakers huge. It applied A LOT of eq and you can definitely hear it. I did a little write up in the 2016 Denon thread but it was like going from muffled and laid back to crystal clear having the singer in the room with you kind of difference. I'm happy with it for that alone so far.

I'm going to download the Audyssey editor app and play with it in the upcoming days. I hope to post some REW graphs showing what Audyssey does.

The extra power seems to also be making a nice difference in clean output capability as things sounded nice and clean all the way up to reference where before it sounded uncomfortably loud and harsh. I'm sure the 70w Yamaha was running out of steam and distorting/clipping/whatever.
bear123 is online now  
post #34626 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 06:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,535
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3330 Post(s)
Liked: 10007
I don't know about anyone else but this topic of the V1801 chuffing when pushed past it's limits has become a little wearisome. Especially considering it keeps getting stated that every ported subwoofer chuffs when pushed past its limits. And while it has been enlightening on many different levels (I've learned a bit about subwoofers and I've learned a bit about people) I feel like everything that can be said about it has been said about it, many times over. Having said that, if there is some important point regarding chuffing that hasn't been posted yet, and someone feels it is vital for us to see it, I would be interested in reading about it.

It's just I haven't seen anything new on the subject in a number of pages and there is a lot more about PSA subwoofers than this one topic. Or at least there used to be.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #34627 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 07:01 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ahblaza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Steeler Country
Posts: 3,995
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2449 Post(s)
Liked: 3387
I can't believe I just read through six pages of this hogwash since just being here yesterday. Man O" Man how things can change overnight, all we need now is someone to throw a match on the gasoline poured on PSA subwoofers..........

The few of us who have had the pleasure of meeting Tom and Jim and seeing their facility and the cars they drive know these are modest hard working gentlemen who had a plan and were determined enough to make this plan into a reality. It will be their five year anniversary next month selling their first subwoofers XV15 and XS15. This is a two man operation and was shocked to hear Tom say they hired another person to help. This poor guy was probably under some heavy scrutiny before he was allowed to assemble a speaker or sub.

I remember talking with Jim which I did so often and him saying they were expecting 50+ cabinets by Wednesday morning and I assumed it would be many days before all 50+ cabs were assemble, tested and boxed up for shipping. Well 2.5 days later Jim said the entire shipment was ready to go. I don't know where they put all those big boxes cause the place ain't that big guys.

I won't dwell on this subject any longer except to support what Tom said that every negative comment made by someone means a lot to a company like PSA and isn't taken for granted, they strive to make every customer happy even if it means recommending a competitor's product over their own. In other words it does matter to those guys what's being said whether it's positive or negative, just look at the effect one negative comment has made in a course of one day.

@keeper I was kidding about local pick up only with my three V1801s, they're keepers just not yours........
ahblaza is offline  
post #34628 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 07:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 713
I am actually surprised it wasn't posted here sooner. It has been talked about for a week or two in another thread but there no reply from PSA in that thread(and yes they were @ so they were notified) so it was brought here since that thread was a GTG thread, not a PSA support thread. I would be upset if I purchased a sub that claims output # that it can only do when severely chuffing. That is not up to PSA normal standard, which in the past was VERY high. Before this PSA was at the top but I guarantee you this is not good for PSA V3601 and V1801 reputation. At least not to people who want to be able to get the # claimed without port noise.

I own PSA and I understand how subwoofer, enclosures, ports and everything work together. PSA knew about this before even putting it out. You can see it even modeling a subwoofer before building it what is going on as far as port area and port velocity, Xmax pe etc. They are all related and interact together and software will show you a very accurate prediction.

It is not perfect but pretty close otherwise it would be a wild card every time you built an enclosure and modeled it in software to check the port area and port velocity. This is basic stuff.

If SVS did this Tom would be jumping ALL over it. But is fine for them to do it? Give # that the subs cannot hit without severe chuffing. Not good.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-are...l#post54169361

That thread has a couple links where I show how you can see port velocity estimates before even actually building an enclosure.

And I can tell you from experience by looking at the port area that it is obvious the V3601 and V1801 will chuff before the maximum output is achieved. They put a woofer in with more Xmax and that "shows" more output on the CEA-2010 RATINGS. The only drawback is that output is actually not usable if you can hear chuffing. So you guys would not be upset bought these woofers believing they hit the PSA # as useable output #?

I guess this is the reason Tom always said CEA-2010 RATINGS do not tell the whole story. The irony.

If anyone still doubts what I say go into the DIY section and post that you want to build a port 18" subwoofer and give them the box dimensions and port dimension that are about the same as the V1801 or V3601 and see what the guys there tell you will be the result, good or ???? It is not magic. Choose any one of the typical high excursion 18" drivers used for HT in the small box and port areas like the V3601 and V1801 and you will get the same or very similar results, early port noise.

And I realize Tom knows more about this stuff than I do. Just for guys that have never used the modeling software or actually built their own subwoofers and want to learn more about how it works the information is out there and not that difficult.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

Last edited by bscool; 07-13-2017 at 08:19 PM.
bscool is offline  
post #34629 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 08:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ereed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,299
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2191 Post(s)
Liked: 1482
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Or just accept that in absence of your required proof, that it doesn't, and move on. Any purchase decision involves this logic. If you're not convinced of a benefit move on.

My two cents, especially at near-field, would be to just keep your PB13s.
I agree and totally understand. I'm not actually buying any psa or ported subs at the moment. I was just making the point "what if" I decide to sell the pb13s for V1801s. Just cause Tom said its better doesn't proof anything cause I wouldn't know if its true upgrade, downgrade, or lateral movement. Thats why databass can be beneficial depending if you want the subs farfield, etc. Just making point where databass can be useful in that situation to see output in diff frequencies, etc.

But I'm not selling my pb13s for another ported especially nearfield like you said....they sound great as it is. I'd love to get my hands on some high end sealed subs though and spread all over the room!
David Charles likes this.

Sony 45es | 120 inch screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1075 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Rotel RSP-1068 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M (x4) | Funk Audio subs (x2) | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson D-501/Shadow-8 Actuators (x2) | Monster Power Conditioner | GIK acoustic panels
ereed is online now  
post #34630 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 08:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I am actually surprised it wasn't posted here sooner. It has been talked about for a week or two in another thread but there no reply from PSA in that thread(and yes they were @ so they were notified) so it was brought here since that thread was a GTG thread, not a PSA support thread. I would be upset if I purchased a sub that claims output # that it can only do when severely chuffing. That is not up to PSA normal standard, which in the past was VERY high. Before this PSA was at the top but I guarantee you this is not good for PSA V3601 and V1801 reputation. At least not to people who want to be able to get the # claimed without port noise.



I own PSA and I understand how subwoofer, enclosures, ports and everything work together. PSA knew about this before even putting it out. You can see it even modeling a subwoofer before building it what is going on as far as port area and port velocity, Xmax pe etc. They are all related and interact together and software will show you a very accurate prediction.



It is not perfect but pretty close otherwise it would be a wild card every time you built an enclosure and modeled it in software to check the port area and port velocity. This is basic stuff.



If SVS did this Tom would be jumping ALL over it. But is fine for them to do it? Give # that the subs cannot hit without severe chuffing. Not good.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-are...l#post54169361



That thread has a couple links where I show how you can see port velocity estimates before even actually building an enclosure.



And I can tell you from experience by looking at the port area that it is obvious the V3601 and V1801 will chuff before the maximum output is achieved. They put a woofer in with more Xmax and that "shows" more output on the CEA-2010 RATINGS. The only drawback is that output is actually not usable if you can hear chuffing. So you guys would not be upset bought these woofers believing they hit the PSA # as useable output #?



I guess this is the reason Tom always said CEA-2010 RATINGS do not tell the whole story. The irony.



If anyone still doubts what I say go into the DIY section and post that you want to build a port 18" subwoofer and give them the box dimensions and port dimension that are about the same as the V1801 or V3601 and see what the guys there tell you will be the result, good or ???? It is not magic. Choose any one of the typical high excursion 18" drivers used for HT in the small box and port areas like the V3601 and V1801 and you will get the same or very similar results, early port noise.



And I realize Tom knows more about this stuff than I do. Just for guys that have never used the modeling software or actually built their own subwoofers and want to learn more about how it works the information is out there and not that difficult.


This is about the best post I could imagine... one that sums it all up. The point is, the psa 01 poted subs chuff wayyyy below their limits. Well written sir.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
David Charles is offline  
post #34631 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 08:56 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,087
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 8832
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I am actually surprised it wasn't posted here sooner. It has been talked about for a week or two in another thread but there no reply from PSA in that thread(and yes they were @ so they were notified) so it was brought here since that thread was a GTG thread, not a PSA support thread. I would be upset if I purchased a sub that claims output # that it can only do when severely chuffing. That is not up to PSA normal standard, which in the past was VERY high. Before this PSA was at the top but I guarantee you this is not good for PSA V3601 and V1801 reputation. At least not to people who want to be able to get the # claimed without port noise.

I own PSA and I understand how subwoofer, enclosures, ports and everything work together. PSA knew about this before even putting it out. You can see it even modeling a subwoofer before building it what is going on as far as port area and port velocity, Xmax pe etc. They are all related and interact together and software will show you a very accurate prediction.

It is not perfect but pretty close otherwise it would be a wild card every time you built an enclosure and modeled it in software to check the port area and port velocity. This is basic stuff.

If SVS did this Tom would be jumping ALL over it. But is fine for them to do it? Give # that the subs cannot hit without severe chuffing. Not good.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-are...l#post54169361

That thread has a couple links where I show how you can see port velocity estimates before even actually building an enclosure.

And I can tell you from experience by looking at the port area that it is obvious the V3601 and V1801 will chuff before the maximum output is achieved. They put a woofer in with more Xmax and that "shows" more output on the CEA-2010 RATINGS. The only drawback is that output is actually not usable if you can hear chuffing. So you guys would not be upset bought these woofers believing they hit the PSA # as useable output #?

I guess this is the reason Tom always said CEA-2010 RATINGS do not tell the whole story. The irony.

If anyone still doubts what I say go into the DIY section and post that you want to build a port 18" subwoofer and give them the box dimensions and port dimension that are about the same as the V1801 or V3601 and see what the guys there tell you will be the result, good or ???? It is not magic. Choose any one of the typical high excursion 18" drivers used for HT in the small box and port areas like the V3601 and V1801 and you will get the same or very similar results, early port noise.

And I realize Tom knows more about this stuff than I do. Just for guys that have never used the modeling software or actually built their own subwoofers and want to learn more about how it works the information is out there and not that difficult.
I get it, but the part I don't get is why are you jumping on the PSA 01 series design flaw bandwagon? I never seen you go into the Rythmik thread and say "man that FV15HP is severely underported", Brian Ding had to of known that befor releasing it. You can go into the DIY section and have guys model the FV15 and FV18, they will say the ports are too small for Max extension mode, yet nobody is breathing down Rythmiks throat over it.

To top it off I think you missed the memo where it was stated that PSA felt it was worth the trade off of potential vent noise for keeping the enclosure as small as possible. There is nothing wrong with the 01 series if they are calibrated within reason and not 16-20db hot.

That being said it may be in PSA best interest to tighten up the DSP limiter on the subs so they clamp output before any port compression occurs, similar to SVS. That way they don't make any vent noises for those who run thier subs excessively hot.

Last edited by basshead81; 07-13-2017 at 09:03 PM.
basshead81 is offline  
post #34632 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I get it, but the part I don't get is why are you jumping on the PSA 01 series design flaw bandwagon? I never seen you go into the Rythmik thread and say "man that FV15HP is severely underported", Brian Ding had to of known that befor releasing it. You can go into the DIY section and have guys model the FV15 and FV18, they will say the ports are too small for Max extension mode, yet nobody is breathing down Rythmiks throat over it.

To top it off I think you missed the memo where it was stated that PSA felt it was worth the trade off of potential vent noise for keeping the enclosure as small as possible. There is nothing wrong with the 01 series if they are calibrated within reason and not 16-20db hot.

That being said it may be in PSA best interest to tighten up the DSP limiter on the subs so they clamp output before any port compression occurs, similar to SVS. That way they don't make any vent noises for those who run thier subs excessively hot.
I did miss the memo, can you link me to where PSA said that about vent noise?

Basshead it is nothing personal with PSA I just honestly expected more from them and then when other people posted like owners of the 01 should not be upset that they cannot reach the output #s without excessive port noise I felt I wanted say something because I would be upset if I bought a V3601 that in the past PSA is known for hitting their #.

That to me makes the 01s no better in the real world use(and maybe worse?) than the 00 series because the 00 series at least had more output up top where they do not make noise so they are actually able to make use of the higher output in real world use. Putting a higher excursion driver in so they could show bigger # yet lose output up top and makes the real world use of the higher output down low not really useable. Well boy, I don't know. I guess it doesn't matter since I do not own one and this is my last post about it. Just wanted to put my $.02 out there.

Maybe I am wrong on the 00 vs 01 in actual in room use. Guys on have both and could compare them. Maybe I am wrong. Just my thoughts. And I admit speculation on that last part for sure.

Edit as for why I chime in on PSA, probably because I own one and really liked PSA being they were one of the first "real" subwoofer I had for home audio and I had high expectations from them.

You know when I think about it I do take it personally. Because in the past I would have recommended(and I take pride in trying to give good suggestions/recommendations) the 01s now I would still recommend them with the stipulation that you realize that you will not get anywhere near the output as claimed unless you want to hear chuffing in the lower frequencies at high output. So count on needing multiples like 2-4+ depending on needs and wants. So now that is not a reasonably priced option anymore, so............
FattyMcButterPants likes this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

Last edited by bscool; 07-13-2017 at 09:24 PM.
bscool is offline  
post #34633 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
I'm just trying to get an answer to why my v3601 chuffed LOUD when being tested at psa headquarters prior to me taking it home. Crazy +# bass, audyssey, etc? If it was explained that this was normal function, I'd be happy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
David Charles is offline  
post #34634 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,087
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 8832
We'll see I am not jumping on the bandwagon of there being any real issue with the 01 subs yet. As I mentioned before, I had the V1801 in my room for 60 days and I drove it hard just like my 15's using the same type of material. I could play reference level 4-6db hot and never heard chuffing from 14ft away. Also there are a few other PSA owners here who opinions I respect claim no issues either. NOW That does not mean I don't doubt that some here have run into issues, but there calibration levels seem excessive and to the point where room vibrations and port noise are standing out over the actual fundamental. That means the system is out of balance and over driving the room. I can crank the bass 12-16db hot and all I hear is pictures, windows, and whatever else vibrating like crazy...sounds like ****, so I back the bass down until I hear the source over the room.

What is going on here is that Marc found all subs he tested chuffed but the MFW was the least offensive and the V1801 was the worst offensive. So folks decided to crank thier bass hot and play bass music which is already recorded insanely hot and their sub started emitting vent noise....now the sub is defective because of that? Um no not hardly.

Oh and on that statement about design trade off, I will have to do some digging but I believe Tom also mentioned it to me in a email.

You also are not going to get near the output of the FV15HP in 1 port before vent noise occurs....so still not sure why you feel PSA is doing so wrong here. matter of fact I am willing to wager several ported subs will not hit thier cea2010 burst numbers without vent noise. That is why Marc and I have mentioned about limiting cea2010 output to any abnormal noise and not omitting vent noise.

Last edited by basshead81; 07-13-2017 at 09:34 PM.
basshead81 is offline  
post #34635 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3403 Post(s)
Liked: 4159
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I get it, but the part I don't get is why are you jumping on the PSA 01 series design flaw bandwagon? I never seen you go into the Rythmik thread and say "man that FV15HP is severely underported", Brian Ding had to of known that befor releasing it. You can go into the DIY section and have guys model the FV15 and FV18, they will say the ports are too small for Max extension mode, yet nobody is breathing down Rythmiks throat over it.

To top it off I think you missed the memo where it was stated that PSA felt it was worth the trade off of potential vent noise for keeping the enclosure as small as possible. There is nothing wrong with the 01 series if they are calibrated within reason and not 16-20db hot.

That being said it may be in PSA best interest to tighten up the DSP limiter on the subs so they clamp output before any port compression occurs, similar to SVS. That way they don't make any vent noises for those who run thier subs excessively hot.
You probably missed the part that...

When adjusted, Rythmik FV18's CEA 2010 max burst numbers are close to what Brian Ding claimed and the chuffing is quick and not very loud, in other words, much less objectionable than PSA V1801.

Not only did PSA V1801's CEA 2010 max burst numbers down low not meet those claimed by PSA, the chuffing also starts at the lowest output and is the loudest and longest.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is online now  
post #34636 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:39 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,087
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 8832
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I'm just trying to get an answer to why my v3601 chuffed LOUD when being tested at psa headquarters prior to me taking it home. Crazy +# bass, audyssey, etc? If it was explained that this was normal function, I'd be happy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Because it was being tested with test tones to make sure it was ready for real world use. Obviously it's not going to sound good sitting in the middle of the room running full tilt with a 16hz tone and no speakers playing.
basshead81 is offline  
post #34637 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:48 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,087
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 8832
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
You probably missed the part that...

When adjusted, Rythmik FV18's CEA 2010 max burst numbers are close to what Brian Ding claimed and the chuffing is quick and not very loud, in other words, much less objectionable than PSA V1801.

Not only did PSA V1801's CEA 2010 max burst numbers down low not meet those claimed by PSA, the chuffing also starts at the lowest output and is the loudest and longest.
When adjusted? In what extension mode? So now we have different flavors of chuffing?
ahblaza likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #34638 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 09:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3403 Post(s)
Liked: 4159
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
When adjusted? In what extension mode? So now we have different flavors of chuffing?
When we did the JTR Cap 118HT, we found that the CEA 2010 numbers we got have lower 16 Hz and 20 Hz output when compared with those on data-bass. This is what I mean by adjusted.

After the adjustment (offset) V1801 still missed the claimed numbers by 3dB @ 16 Hz. It is nowhere close to the JTR Cap 118HT down low as PSA claimed.

Yes, different flavors... that's why it earned a new nickname, not the other subs we heard during the GTG...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 07-13-2017 at 10:18 PM.
chucky7 is online now  
post #34639 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 10:08 PM
 
Timothy1180's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: California
Posts: 1,380
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 979 Post(s)
Liked: 313
From the numbers I've had on my rythmik subs in room response I have zero port noise until I get to over 110db at 16hz.

I'm one of those people that play bass loud. So I stick to 2 port mode on my fv15hp.

The v1801 had port noise at 85db or so in these lower frequencies. That's a huge difference. If my fv15hp did that I'd be embarrassed.

The fv15hp tiny ports are a issue when you plug one and turn it up loud. Still not even close to as big as a issue as that slotted port.

I don't really feel a need to post in this thread for awhile. People are drawing lines in the sand. They have no real experience with all the different brands.

Nothing wrong with turning it up and playing hot.

Also remember guys that those spl meters don't measure spl very well. The average meter is off from 7-15db from 20-400hz. Most of them can't gauge any output from under 20hz. Especially a $20 one. Lol

So you could think you're at 120db when it's actually 130db or the other way. So good luck guys.

Also I hope I'm on that guys ignore list. Dumbest post I ever seen in avs. .1% of us should ignore him. I'll start
Timothy1180 is offline  
post #34640 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 10:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Because it was being tested with test tones to make sure it was ready for real world use. Obviously it's not going to sound good sitting in the middle of the room running full tilt with a 16hz tone and no speakers playing.


That's very weird because Tom told me specifically several times they don't use test tones when testing/designing their products. That's not how they do it. Never ever ever!!!

Oddly enough, the same tones and frequencies are found in music and movies, and the same result is to be had... often -30 to -20 mv ( yes with audyssey because I love the way audyssey cleans up the sound in my room). Id wager a lot that a high pct of ported subs won't chuff under those conditions. It's my fault because I should've said wow this doesn't sound right....before leaving the factory. Given this is my first ported sub, and after being out of audio for 10 years, I thought it was normal/acceptable enough.

Point is, tones below 21 ish hz-16 hz ( freq resp of speaker) , at a respectable volume (far below reference) have louder air "woosh" sound than the actual sound ( harmonic maybe) intended to be heard.

I'm sure psa still makes great subs. Mine has great bass above 22 hz. For that, I'm thankful



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by David Charles; 07-13-2017 at 10:20 PM.
David Charles is offline  
post #34641 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 10:27 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,087
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 8832
Is that not a test tone in the video you posted?
basshead81 is offline  
post #34642 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 11:21 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,087
Mentioned: 181 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 8832
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
When we did the JTR Cap 118HT, we found that the CEA 2010 numbers we got have lower 16 Hz and 20 Hz output when compared with those on data-bass. This is what I mean by adjusted.

After the adjustment (offset) V1801 still missed the claimed numbers by 3dB @ 16 Hz. It is nowhere close to the JTR Cap 118HT down low as PSA claimed.

Yes, different flavors... that's why it earned a new nickname, not the other subs we heard during the GTG...
The PDF file Marc posted of the FV18 shows the "No chuff" numbers quite a bit lower then the actual cea2010. Even with the offset you would raise all data the same, so the difference would be the same far as difference between cea2010 data and "no chuff". Not sure why you are bringing the 118 into this, but I guess it's because you feel compelled to spew your anti-psa garbage....very special indeed.
basshead81 is offline  
post #34643 of 50305 Old 07-13-2017, 11:53 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3403 Post(s)
Liked: 4159
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The PDF file Marc posted of the FV18 shows the "No chuff" numbers quite a bit lower then the actual cea2010. Even with the offset you would raise all data the same, so the difference would be the same far as difference between cea2010 data and "no chuff". Not sure why you are bringing the 118 into this, but I guess it's because you feel compelled to spew your anti-psa garbage....very special indeed.
Yeah, what else is new, right? Your unfaltering loyalty to PSA is indeed admirable.

I did not want to say much in this thread as I feel there is no need for me to do so, until you started accusing another paying customer of PSA and mudslinging.

You keep on bringing Rythmik FV15HP into this, so I countered that our Rythmik FV18 CEA 2010 numbers match those from Brian. Its chuffing was more tolerable. I cannot say that about the V1801.

You have repeatedly made reference to the FR in my room, so I guess it's because you feel compelled to spew your pro-PSA and anti-everybody else garbage?

I brought up 118 to illustrate how PSA over-estimated the newer products' capabilities. Our GTG showed that JTR's port design is superior. Let's review Tom's attempt to school Jeff here... Talk about not practicing what he preaches...

Yeah, I guess you wouldn't know how good or bad the other ID 18" subs are because you have not heard any of them. Guess what? I have. I find it funny that you defended the V1801/V3601 by running your 3 Frankenstein 15V's at reference level... So what? What does that have to do with the V1801 or the V3601? Yeah, the V1801 didn't chuff when you had it for 60 days... Because you were running it with 3 other subs!!! LOL... I think maybe it's time you come clean about the real reason you did not keep the V1801?

Look, Tom is trying to work it out with David Charles, so just stay out of it. Whatever you are doing is not helping PSA, OK?

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Neosis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3

Last edited by chucky7; 07-14-2017 at 03:41 AM.
chucky7 is online now  
post #34644 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 06:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 601 Post(s)
Liked: 247
So looking to possibly add a v15 to my already v1801. Thinking of a nearfield placement. Will these play nice together? I can fit an additional v15 a lot easier in my ht.
powerdubs likes this.
keeper is offline  
post #34645 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 06:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 4,511
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2051 Post(s)
Liked: 2195
Quote:
Originally Posted by keeper View Post
So looking to possibly add a v15 to my already v1801. Thinking of a nearfield placement. Will these play nice together? I can fit an additional v15 a lot easier in my ht.
I am sure they would work together but I am a big fan of all subs being the same. Just makes it easier to get them to play well together
raynist is offline  
post #34646 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 06:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 601 Post(s)
Liked: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I am sure they would work together but I am a big fan of all subs being the same. Just makes it easier to get them to play well together
Thanks for your reply. Yeah I would assume so but the $ difference is a motivator. To be honest the v1801 already produces some ugly sounds in my walls. Vibrations of pipes, vents, gas fireplace. Don't know how to fix these things.
keeper is offline  
post #34647 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 06:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,725
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2912 Post(s)
Liked: 9593
Quote:
Originally Posted by keeper View Post
So looking to possibly add a v15 to my already v1801. Thinking of a nearfield placement. Will these play nice together? I can fit an additional v15 a lot easier in my ht.
All of our sealed subs would integrate well and the same goes for all of our vented subs as well. The main consideration is headroom and the intended usage. As you noted, you'll typically want the lesser sub closer to the seating position when possible. This will minimize any disparity regarding how they run out of headroom.

As Ray noted below, identical subs are always nice so if the budget is there...no downside to a second v1801(excpet it is a little larger). Pop into chat when time allows and we can work up the best "returning customer discount" for you for both options..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,
Tom Vodhanel is online now  
post #34648 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 06:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Charles R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 12,543
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 796
My take is Tom has addressed everyone's concern and if you happen to not like his response and endlessly repeat what you think it should be it doesn't reflect badly on Tom (or his subs) rather you.

P.S. I presume those that sent private messages the moment I posted this are happy to make them public.

125" Projection | 5.2.4 Audio | Shield TV | LibreELEC/ODROID-C2 Kodi Media Client | Ubuntu/ODROID-XU4 NAS/Server | 65" LG OLED TV | TiVo | Shield TV |
| Water cooled Threadripper & Radeon VII, NVMe PC - 43" 4K Monitor |

Last edited by Charles R; 07-14-2017 at 07:36 AM.
Charles R is offline  
post #34649 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 06:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,725
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2912 Post(s)
Liked: 9593
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I'm just trying to get an answer to why my v3601 chuffed LOUD when being tested at psa headquarters prior to me taking it home. Crazy +# bass, audyssey, etc? If it was explained that this was normal function, I'd be happy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi David.

I thought we covered this well enough privately.

We run all subs through various test tones(mostly sine waves) after assembly to ensure a variety of QC checks. These include but are not limited too

1)Cabinet integrity. (being sure there are no rattles, leaks, etc)
2)Driver performance. (no rattles, leaks, etc)
3)Amplifier(all adjustable controls function are they should, no leaks, no rattles, etc)
4)Total system performance(expected output per input signal)
5)A little more driver break-in. Even though we run each driver on the bench prior to assembly letting them stretch their legs a bit more is never a bad thing.

We have never used a sine wave in what amounts to nearly an anechoic environment (huge warehouse with 20ft ceilings?) to try to determine the threshold of audibility for port flow. That would be utterly futile and would make absolutely zero sense. I was standing right next to your V3601 during the test video and it sounded exactly as it was designed to perform. We would have never handed it over to you otherwise..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
FattyMcButterPants likes this.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,
Tom Vodhanel is online now  
post #34650 of 50305 Old 07-14-2017, 07:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1104 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi David.



I thought we covered this well enough privately.



We run all subs through various test tones(mostly sine waves) after assembly to ensure a variety of QC checks. These include but are not limited too



1)Cabinet integrity. (being sure there are no rattles, leaks, etc)

2)Driver performance. (no rattles, leaks, etc)

3)Amplifier(all adjustable controls function are they should, no leaks, no rattles, etc)

4)Total system performance(expected output per input signal)

5)A little more driver break-in. Even though we run each driver on the bench prior to assembly letting them stretch their legs a bit more is never a bad thing.



We have never used a sine wave in what amounts to nearly an anechoic environment (huge warehouse with 20ft ceilings?) to try to determine the threshold of audibility for port flow. That would be utterly futile and would make absolutely zero sense. I was standing right next to your V3601 during the test video and it sounded exactly as it was designed to perform. We would have never handed it over to you otherwise..



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio


So what I'm hearing you say, since you were standing right next to me, was that the port noise that your speaker made is the perfectly acceptable. Duly noted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bscool likes this.
David Charles is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
chuffitychuffchuff , chuffmaster , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , hr chuff'n'stuff , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , psa , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , s3000i , s7201 , tv36 , v1500 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off