Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1158 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #34711 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 03:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I've addressed this question many times in the past. A *very* small percentage of potential customers consider data-bass a "review". To the 99.9% of home theater enthusiasts a "review" includes a lot of subjective listening impressions with both music and movies...and any measurement graph is often misunderstood anyway. In the past, I thought sending products and being able to reference that data-set would relieve me of a lot of work with potential customers but in reality it did just the opposite. When I did reference the data the majority of the time it just had me trying to explain what graphs like Impulse, group delay, etc,etc,etc even meant. So there i am, in a "chat" window trying to explain this stuff. And after a long attempt I would get "well, when I asked for a review I meant a real review...not just a bunch of squiggly lines" Ugh. The same thought process applies when I'm asked "why don't they post each individual cea-2010 frequency?" Well, why limit it to 1/3rd octave then? If more data is always better...let's do every frequency from 10-120hz? Sure, let's have 110 data points for every sub...let "joe six pack" open that page. 10 seconds later that page is closed and he is in the checkout page at svs The reality is there is always going to be a balance of objective and subjective descriptors for each product. And the OPTIMAL balance is going to depend entirely on the target market. If our focus was on the AVS basshead crowd it would be EASY, omg, so easy.. We could eliminate the website entirely really. In fact we could sell 90% of our measurement gear. Just send each product to Josh. I can't BEGIN to explain how mcuh easier that would be. But the "basshead crowd" is really a very small potential market for us.

We have sent more subs to Josh than rythmik,hsu, and seaton combined...but there's never such ongoing spam-like drama in their threads about it. And let's not back-peddle into the "oh but you haven't sent anything in 2-3 years"...because neither have svs,rythmik,seaton(ever),or hsu.

We've actually had Brent pop in recently(well, earlier this year) and inquire about another review or two which we enthusiastically agreed too immediately. So we don't shy away from cea-2010 data sets we just feel it is important that they be presented with a "real review" (this actually reminds me I owe him an email update on the new woof)

Now, nothing about our choices implies they are best for every other business. But we have a pretty good idea what is important to our customers(I interact with each one individually). Other business will most certainly have other ideas in that regard.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
You are not catering to Joe Six Pack, you are catering to the other potential ID companies market share which is not brick and mortar stores. The Joe Six Pack will walk into Best Buy and be sold a sub by their sales force. Anyway, Databass has graphs along w/ detailed write-ups (some customers look at the graphs, squigly lines as you call it, and some pay attention to the write ups) . The write ups that they provide will tell the whole unbiased story if your subs will hold up under the conditions you say they will. And you only base your findings on the average db range, which is very skewed.

If you did have postitive results on DataBass then you could represent that on your website and therefore reach out to the more dedicated bass fan out there. The average Joe Six Pack is not going to drop 4k on a pair of subs, as you call it.
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post #34712 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 03:55 PM
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@ClawAndTalon I am not sure what your beef with me is.

Please explain the problems in the procedures I am following.

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...asurement-data
http://www.brentbutterworth.com/cea-...nt-manual.html

I don't claim to be an expert and I'm constantly learning. I am open to constructive criticism but I don't appreciate the name calling.
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post #34713 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 04:12 PM
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Can all you children please stop the bickering? It is tiresome and pointless to most of us here.




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post #34714 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 04:55 PM
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@chucky

"Who do you think you are? The HR of avsforum.com??? What credentials do you have? For all I know, you could be a high school kid typing from your dad's cell phone..."

My credentials are irrelevant. I see that you're shifting the burden of proof like your boy Tim. Birds of a feather I guess... I simply dismiss the claims made by the backyard gurus, and I've explained why. It's their responsibility to prove their claims, not mine to dismiss them.

"You have no authority in determining whether someone is a valid reviewer or qualified to perform CEA 2010 tests."

I am most certainly an authority for my and this is why your attempt to shift the burden of proof is so absurd. I am however more comfortable in the conclusions reached by one audio reviewer compared to another. I'm also comfortable taking with a grain of salt those whom I am not familiar with.

"AFAIK, data-bass is Josh Ricci's side gig. He may not even work in the audio business."

Strawman away, but one's actual day job isn't the end all be all for me to prefer one's opinion by a long shot...

"In fact, most of the so called audio reviewers/testers have no proper education in acoustics."

...nor is their educational background. Your broad sweeping generalizations aside, I give a very abridged list of audio reviewers, and pros which I prefer, and most do have a proper education in audio production and do it full time.

"Many of them are self-taught, just like many respected members here who give sound advice unconditionally."

And many are laughable gurus on an obvious Dunning Kruger kick. I'm not going to just give a stranger the same value because they share some similar background. There's more to it than that.



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
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post #34715 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Friday afternoons are always slow on AVS...

This is spot on. I made the a similar comment to a friend. Got my Captain Jack and coke and these AVS threads!
Then I get the stare from the wife!
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post #34716 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by s2000 View Post
This is spot on. I made the a similar comment to a friend. Got my Captain Jack and coke and these AVS threads!
Then I get the stare from the wife!
Well, don't you have an announcement to make in the Official owner's thread?

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post #34717 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by powerdubs View Post
Can all you children please stop the bickering? It is tiresome and pointless to most of us here.




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I agree. Member temp ban from posting in this thread. Cooler heads should prevail.
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post #34718 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by powerdubs View Post
Can all you children please stop the bickering? It is tiresome and pointless to most of us here.




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Thank you, go some place else and discuss Data Bass. This stuff reminds me of the RA days seriously, best bang for the buck output sub out there. I remember the guys that posted so many output per frequency range numbers that they pulled from thin air, they had more number combinations than a state lottery machine. You know who you are as well. Just give me output, I don't care how it sounds...promoted these subs over the PSA brand but never purchased one themselves, sound familiar to anyone????????

Can we get back to the regularly scheduled programming, I miss my friends whom seem to be ignoring all this and not commenting about anything, C'mon guys come back....
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post #34719 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:29 PM
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So what's the movie of choice this weekend?

Equipment List: JVC RS500, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Panasonic UB420, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #34720 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Basshead81 was confused and I thought he would ask a question.

He thought the original xv15 with only a phase control is at a big disadvantage from ice amp with a delay knob.

I tried to explain to him that they are doing the same thing.

The original line was an amazing achievement and changed the marketplace.
I'm not confused about anything...I never said a big disadvantage either. I said there is a difference between phase and time delay.

@Tom Vodhanel


Would you please explain the difference between Phase and Time delay?
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post #34721 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Well, don't you have an announcement to make in the Official owner's thread?
Indeed! I am also sending you a PM about your AVR settings.

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post #34722 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 06:45 PM
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Well. One thing's for sure...
After seeing all the discussion and arguments in various threads, I'm sticking with sealed.
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post #34723 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 07:09 PM
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So what's the movie of choice this weekend?
Well, I've got a Blu Ray of John Wick 2 coming. Should be fun.
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post #34724 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 07:13 PM
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I shall interrupt this nonsense on Monday with plenty of pics and observations of having three subs.
May even get super silly and post a video
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post #34725 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I'm not confused about anything...I never said a big disadvantage either. I said there is a difference between phase and time delay.

@Tom Vodhanel


Would you please explain the difference between Phase and Time delay?
I believe you are correct BH. I believe phase controls may only effect frequencies around the crossover frequency while delay affects the entire bandwidth. I believe this was an advantage of the SpeakerPower DSP over the BASH.
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post #34726 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 07:22 PM
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I'll chime in here......about phase and delay on subs. Not sure how psa is but just in general which I found interesting with both my axiom and svs subs. If you see subs with phase of just 0 degree and 180 degree switch....that is the polarity (same as switching wires on subs). If you see adjustable delay (such as 15 degree adjustments), that is pretty much timing/distance delay of the subs and has nothing to do with polarity.

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post #34727 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 07:38 PM
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Well, I've got a Blu Ray of John Wick 2 coming. Should be fun.
I think I'm going to check out Fast 8 and try the Iron Fist series.
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post #34728 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 07:56 PM
 
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I never meant that phase and delay are the exact same thing. I was trying to explain to a member in a different thread that it's not a big deal that his xv15 has a phase knob. Bh81 said something like hopefully your receiver has dual sub eq or setup or something like that. Because you have no way to setup your delay and phase.

I was just trying to help out a member that seemed to be kinda green to this hobby.

I've never seen a sub amp with both delay and phase knobs. Maybe there is one. Who knows???? Really if you have a phase knob you don't need a delay knob. In fact a few companies actually list the knob DELAY/PHASE.

Really when I re read everything neither of was wrong and we know what we are talking about.

Really though there is no difference in my mind to setup between phase and delay.

I should of just said to the guy. Turn that knobby thing till it sounds loudest at mlp. Lol

Also if I've seemed confrontational lately or angry I apologize. Been a really hard day. Lost a special person few weeks back and today we scattered his ashes at morro bay rock.

Sometimes we all get carried away. I'm sure one day I'll pick up the phone and call tom again.

Everyone in their circle is the go to av guy and always right. We probably can all admit that these forums aren't the best for real conversations. Easy to hide behind a screen saying mean things. We are all people and in person I bet we all could be friends.

To Tom, I'm envious of you! You're doing something you love with people you admire for a group that does this for pure joy. If you can support your family and live comfortably that's all you can ask for. All the hours you put in is exhausting I'm sure but what a job! I make my money doing something I hate. Most of us don't have a great job. So keep it up and never get a job that you hate. That's the American dream that most can't ever find and you have!

Tim
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post #34729 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 08:56 PM
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That is exactly what you said but No that's not what I said at all. Lol

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post54265649


Feel free to reread the conversation.
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post #34730 of 57574 Old 07-14-2017, 09:14 PM
 
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It looks like what I already said. Need to try to stop trying to pick a fight with me. I'm not your enemy.

We both were arguing for the sake of arguing. We are both the type of people that have strong beliefs and think we are alway right.

Need to drop what ever issues you have with me. I said nice things in my last post and I meant them. I won't buy Psa subs for along time but that's my preference.
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post #34731 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 01:00 AM
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Fast 8 = decent movie with a few bass moments but nothing special.

Equipment List: JVC RS500, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Panasonic UB420, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
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post #34732 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 01:40 AM
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Dawn of the Planet of the Apes

Had some decent bass on the original Triax.
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post #34733 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This is not my full review of the V1801. Even though the 15" Seaton MFW-15 Turbo and Rythmik FV15HP have more output from 16-25Hz I would still choose the V1801 over any of the 15" subs available. I believe the new high-excursion driver delivers excellent tactile energy and that is worth more than any SPL measurement IME.
Thanks Marc for sharing. Would you pick S1801 over V1801 then to get higher output in movies within 16-25Hz given your findings in respect of port chuffing beyond the limits of V1801? Will it deliver same tactile energy?
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post #34734 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 04:08 AM
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Thanks Marc for sharing. Would you pick S1801 over V1801 then to get higher output in movies within 16-25Hz given your findings in respect of port chuffing beyond the limits of V1801? Will it deliver same tactile energy?
For movies, I would still pick V1801 over S1801. When all else being equal, the ported sub should have 8~12dB more output around port tune which is 16~25Hz. The ported V1801 should also deliver more tactile response.

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post #34735 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 05:37 AM
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Fast 8 = decent movie with a few bass moments but nothing special.
Exacly Mike Butny. seemed liked they had a few moments while watching had me thinking okay here come some LFE.....and a mere small vibration on the couch. Maybe I will just have to run this one hotter. Glad I rented.
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post #34736 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 06:11 AM
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Thanks Marc for sharing. Would you pick S1801 over V1801 then to get higher output in movies within 16-25Hz given your findings in respect of port chuffing beyond the limits of V1801? Will it deliver same tactile energy?
A ported sub will have a lot more tactile kick than similar sealed sub in most situations, for several reasons.

1) Ported subs have drastically higher output around tune, often 2-4x the output of a comparable sealed sub. Because of this, sealed subs will often simply hit their output limits and compress and stop getting louder even thought the signal might call for it.

2) Let's assume both subs will play at the required SPL level without excessive distortion or compression. In most circumstances, the ported sub will produce higher SPL at the same MV level due to the greater efficiency around port tune gives the ported sub a more aggressive frequency response in that area.

3) Let's assume that enough eq has been applied to a sealed sub so that it actually produces the same output at the same MV as a ported sub would. The ported sub will stave have A LOT more tactile effect due to the ported alignment.

Again though, for anyone who does not have both the eq capability to substantially boost the low end on sealed subs along with the displacement required to do so without compressing/limiting, ported subs will just hit much harder down low.

Coming from the owner of two sealed subs.
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post #34737 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Dawn of the Planet of the Apes

Had some decent bass on the original Triax.
There was a low budget movie on Prime I watched a while back. About a group of teenagers lost in the woods. Whoever did the sound forgot to click "on" for the highpass. Anytime the wind blew during a dialogue drive scene I would watch the office subwoofer(s) go nuts. I can't remember the movie now and to be honest it was sort of like the intro to EoT...just a bunch of noise that has absolutely nothing to do with the movie. But I'll try to track it down if I have a few minutes today. Also, anyone with a Roku who enjoys older movies should check this free channel out.

https://www.rokuguide.com/channels/the-nerdaclysm

The movies range from classics(imo) like the original The Time Machine, Creature from the Black Lagoon, The Mummy, The Wolfman to some of the best "campy" sci-fi you could ask for---Plan 9, King Kong vs. Godzilla. Plus they have some stooges, Hitchcock's tv series and just a BUNCH of cool (older)stuff. The best part is they all seem to be in their original aspect, with the original run times and ZERO commercials.

Tom V.
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The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,
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post #34738 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There was a low budget movie on Prime I watched a while back. About a group of teenagers lost in the woods. Whoever did the sound forgot to click "on" for the highpass. Anytime the wind blew during a dialogue drive scene I would watch the office subwoofer(s) go nuts. I can't remember the movie now and to be honest it was sort of like the intro to EoT...just a bunch of noise that has absolutely nothing to do with the movie. But I'll try to track it down if I have a few minutes today. Also, anyone with a Roku who enjoys older movies should check this free channel out.

https://www.rokuguide.com/channels/the-nerdaclysm

The movies range from classics(imo) like the original The Time Machine, Creature from the Black Lagoon, The Mummy, The Wolfman to some of the best "campy" sci-fi you could ask for---Plan 9, King Kong vs. Godzilla. Plus they have some stooges, Hitchcock's tv series and just a BUNCH of cool (older)stuff. The best part is they all seem to be in their original aspect, with the original run times and ZERO commercials.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Alright Tom, time for a spoiler. What's up with the new top of the line sub? Quad opposed 15? Dual opposed top and bottom firing cylinder? Inquiring minds want to know. Wait....dual opposed 21? Horn?
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post #34739 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 08:12 AM
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Whats up psa family!? Been a long time since i logged in, im sure i missed a lot ha! Hows everyone enjoying there psa gear? I know i still havent found one single complaint with the t18s yet

1600 cubic foot sealed room! Samsung 8500 curved 4k
denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s rear surround
Quad PSA T18s!!!!!!
Funk audio 12.2 HP mains powered by/funk audio 6x500 watt amp

Last edited by newc33; 07-15-2017 at 08:50 AM.
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post #34740 of 57574 Old 07-15-2017, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Thanks Marc for sharing. Would you pick S1801 over V1801 then to get higher output in movies within 16-25Hz given your findings in respect of port chuffing beyond the limits of V1801? Will it deliver same tactile energy?
My answer depends on your room.

In a large room open to other rooms, ported subs are a better choice unless you have several grand to spend on sealed subs. They are also a better choice for concrete subfloors IMO.

However, in a smaller room (<3000ft³) there is cabin gain that occurs which a sealed subs shallow roll off takes better advantage of (often down to 8Hz or below). An upstairs room or room with wood subfloor (like those built with a crawl space or basement) will transfer more tactile energy and sealed subs are my preference in this scenario (not everyone's).

If you are chasing deep bass response there are other ported solutions. I would recommend a pair of V1500s or 15Vs over a single V1801. Also, don't forget to check the PSA outlet or chat with Tom for discounted, like-new returns.
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