Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1182 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 76736Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #35431 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 06:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kings Park, NY
Posts: 253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 537
Update: Watched F8 last night at 75db.

Yes the PSA's knocked over a Gatorade bottle during one (of the many action scenes), lots of smiles & giggles during the movie, well worth the $ 20
oneeyeblind likes this.

PSA MTM 210T's, MTM 210C, MT 110SR, V-1800, V-1801
65" LG 4K, Denon AVR-X4300H, EAT B Sharp Turntable, Xbox One X
ss nimrod is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #35432 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 07:50 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked: 390
I've had my V3601 for a while now. Sometimes I'll take the grille off just to look at the movement of the woofers. My wife thinks that's weird Anyway, I'm always amazed by the fact of how little movement there is, even at pretty loud volumes. Even at -10 MV with the gain at about 50% often times there is little discernible movement.
ss nimrod likes this.
albatros43 is offline  
post #35433 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 09:08 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parkview, IA
Posts: 3,744
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1517 Post(s)
Liked: 2302
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatros43 View Post
I've had my V3601 for a while now. Sometimes I'll take the grille off just to look at the movement of the woofers. My wife thinks that's weird Anyway, I'm always amazed by the fact of how little movement there is, even at pretty loud volumes. Even at -10 MV with the gain at about 50% often times there is little discernible movement.
albatros43- 50%
lizrussspike is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #35434 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 09:18 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
I'm on a slab, so it's not as crazy as it seems I promise. That's probably part of the reason I upgraded so quickly.
albatros43 is offline  
post #35435 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 10:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,723
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 820 Post(s)
Liked: 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatros43 View Post
I've had my V3601 for a while now. Sometimes I'll take the grille off just to look at the movement of the woofers. My wife thinks that's weird Anyway, I'm always amazed by the fact of how little movement there is, even at pretty loud volumes. Even at -10 MV with the gain at about 50% often times there is little discernible movement.

I know where you're coming from. We've all seen subs, either in person or on video, with massive excursion and driver cone movement. These subs with massive excursion don't always sound good. They may sound loud, and they may sound powerful, but that often comes with massive distortion.

The proof is in the pudding. Setting the gain for your particular AVR subwoofer line-output to achieve 75 - 82 dB during tests is critical. This should give you reference level bass, regardless of cone movement.

I recently watched a video of a v3601 subwoofer being driven to its mechanical limits with low frequency tones. NOT GOOD.

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
climber07 is offline  
post #35436 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 11:00 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
I know where you're coming from. We've all seen subs, either in person or on video, with massive excursion and driver cone movement. These subs with massive excursion don't always sound good. They may sound loud, and they may sound powerful, but that often comes with massive distortion.

The proof is in the pudding. Setting the gain for your particular AVR subwoofer line-output to achieve 75 - 82 dB during tests is critical. This should give you reference level bass, regardless of cone movement.

I recently watched a video of a v3601 subwoofer being driven to its mechanical limits with low frequency tones. NOT GOOD.
Yeah, nothing like that. For my tastes Audyssey sets the bass too low, so I adjust from there.
albatros43 is offline  
post #35437 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 11:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,723
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 820 Post(s)
Liked: 2615
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatros43 View Post
Yeah, nothing like that. For my tastes Audyssey sets the bass too low, so I adjust from there.
I agree. I bump my AVR sub trim up about 5dB, making sure I stay below 0dB so as not to clip the AVR sub output signal.

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
climber07 is offline  
post #35438 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 11:56 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,939
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 381 Post(s)
Liked: 10862
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatros43 View Post
I've had my V3601 for a while now. Sometimes I'll take the grille off just to look at the movement of the woofers. My wife thinks that's weird Anyway, I'm always amazed by the fact of how little movement there is, even at pretty loud volumes. Even at -10 MV with the gain at about 50% often times there is little discernible movement.
I don't want to stir a bees nest but one thing I noticed too is the 01 driver in the V1801 moves very little even when pushed hard. The 1.75" surround seems almost overkill because the drivers voice coil gets extremely warm well before the driver is utilizing it's suspension. The 15" drivers move quite a bit and barely get warm. Not saying there is a issue, just something I noticed.
jamiebosco likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #35439 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 05:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,696
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1022 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
I picked up my dual v3601's today, and was privileged to meet both Tom and Jim, great guys! As busy as they were, they took time out to chat and answer some questions I had. They were super helpful and somehow managed to fit two of these beasts in my Ford Escape, which did not seem visually possible. I also saw the new flagship: if you think the v3601's are big, you need to see this. It can more accurately be compared to a refrigerator. This thing should put out scary quantities of bass. I'm eagerly awaiting reports from the field, but for me, these v3601's should not leave me lacking in volume or extension. I will provide a review as soon as we can get these out of my vehicle and into my home theater. Fun times ahead!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
post #35440 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 06:21 PM
Senior Member
 
jarretc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Central California
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I picked up my dual v3601's today, and was privileged to meet both Tom and Jim, great guys! As busy as they were, they took time out to chat and answer some questions I had. They were super helpful and somehow managed to fit two of these beasts in my Ford Escape, which did not seem visually possible. I also saw the new flagship: if you think the v3601's are big, you need to see this. It can more accurately be compared to a refrigerator. This thing should put out scary quantities of bass. I'm eagerly awaiting reports from the field, but for me, these v3601's should not leave me lacking in volume or extension. I will provide a review as soon as we can get these out of my vehicle and into my home theater. Fun times ahead!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ah ha, so you're why my V3601 wasn't shipped out until 4 hours ago!
Mike Butny and Hopinater like this.

Denon X4000
Power Sound Audio (MT-110 / MTM-210C / MT-110)
Oppo BDP-103
Dual Power Sound Audio Triaxes
Sony KDL60W630B
jarretc is offline  
post #35441 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 06:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 7,286
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3852 Post(s)
Liked: 12979
I'm happy for you guys getting the V3601. It's good to have a few more guys who can comment on these subs. There's a few of us but it's always fun to add more to the club. Have fun getting those beasts set, they can be a little on the heavy side. But once in place they are a lot of fun.
imureh likes this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #35442 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 07:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,696
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1022 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I'm happy for you guys getting the V3601. It's good to have a few more guys who can comment on these subs. There's a few of us but it's always fun to add more to the club. Have fun getting those beasts set, they can be a little on the heavy side. But once in place they are a lot of fun.


Really looking forward to it. User reviews are what prompted me to pull the trigger on these. I have very high expectations!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
post #35443 of 56829 Old 07-28-2017, 07:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,723
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 820 Post(s)
Liked: 2615
I'm going to use this line on my kids...


Does the subwoofer look heavy? Then it's expensive, get away from it!

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
climber07 is offline  
post #35444 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 05:04 AM
Member
 
scott_richardson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Really looking forward to it. User reviews are what prompted me to pull the trigger on these. I have very high expectations!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Merely a v3600 owner here. But I only picked this sub up mere days before the 3601 was announced. I'm in Australia so it would have been a while until 3601's would have been available.

I only JUST moved into my new home with dedicated theatre, and am yet to give this sub a real go. It will be my only sub. But dual 18's will be plenty for me.

I can also concur that these push/pull dual 18" don't seem to move much at all to create vast amounts of clean bass. It's really impressive. With the limited listening sessions I had while it was temporarily set up in our old house, I was blown away by the depth and clarity of the bass.

My full setup is:

7 x MTM210 main channels
4 x MT110SR atmos channels
1 x V3600i subwoofer

7 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (7 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)
4 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (4 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)

JVC X9500 Projector
Crystalmorphic lens
Lens Motor
165" 2.35:1 AusTheatreScreens screen

No AV Processor yet - tossing up between Yamaha CX-A5100 or Marantz 8802a. Kinda wish replacements for these were available to make a better choice.
Mike Butny likes this.
scott_richardson is offline  
post #35445 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 05:08 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post
Merely a v3600 owner here. But I only picked this sub up mere days before the 3601 was announced. I'm in Australia so it would have been a while until 3601's would have been available.

I only JUST moved into my new home with dedicated theatre, and am yet to give this sub a real go. It will be my only sub. But dual 18's will be plenty for me.

I can also concur that these push/pull dual 18" don't seem to move much at all to create vast amounts of clean bass. It's really impressive. With the limited listening sessions I had while it was temporarily set up in our old house, I was blown away by the depth and clarity of the bass.

My full setup is:

7 x MTM210 main channels
4 x MT110SR atmos channels
1 x V3600i subwoofer


7 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (7 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)
4 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (4 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)

JVC X9500 Projector
Crystalmorphic lens
Lens Motor
165" 2.35:1 AusTheatreScreens screen

No AV Processor yet - tossing up between Yamaha CX-A5100 or Marantz 8802a. Kinda wish replacements for these were available to make a better choice.
Wow!
albatros43 is offline  
post #35446 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 06:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 7,286
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3852 Post(s)
Liked: 12979
^^ I second that... WOW! Very nice set up.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #35447 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 07:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,676
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1012 Post(s)
Liked: 1263
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post
I can also concur that these push/pull dual 18" don't seem to move much at all to create vast amounts of clean bass. It's really impressive. With the limited listening sessions I had while it was temporarily set up in our old house, I was blown away by the depth and clarity of the bass.

My full setup is:

7 x MTM210 main channels
4 x MT110SR atmos channels
1 x V3600i subwoofer

7 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (7 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)
4 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (4 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)

JVC X9500 Projector
Crystalmorphic lens
Lens Motor
165" 2.35:1 AusTheatreScreens screen

No AV Processor yet - tossing up between Yamaha CX-A5100 or Marantz 8802a. Kinda wish replacements for these were available to make a better choice.
The v360x arent push pull, both drivers should be going in the same direction, incredible system btw.
jamiebosco and ahblaza like this.
Pradeep2 is offline  
post #35448 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 08:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ahblaza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Steeler Country
Posts: 4,171
Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2551 Post(s)
Liked: 3907
Quote:
Originally Posted by albatros43 View Post
Yeah, nothing like that. For my tastes Audyssey sets the bass too low, so I adjust from there.
Audy is known to do that especially with the bass response, I believe it's important to check all channel levels post Audy calibration using REW to take measurements at the MLP with speakers set at or close to 75dB and sub channel 85dB with MV at 30 dB, sweep levels -3dBFS. Using the AVR's PN test tones will give inaccurate results as they are not Audy (calibrated) tones. You can adjust gain on the sub to compensate for the lower output level Audy sets for the sub. 50% seems very high, do you have an SPL meter to confirm the level?
ahblaza is offline  
post #35449 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 09:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,696
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1022 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
The v360x arent push pull, both drivers should be going in the same direction, incredible system btw.


That's really impressive if they're not push/pull and still don't vibrate excessively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
post #35450 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mike Butny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orland Park, Il
Posts: 2,314
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked: 2906
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_richardson View Post
Merely a v3600 owner here. But I only picked this sub up mere days before the 3601 was announced. I'm in Australia so it would have been a while until 3601's would have been available.

I only JUST moved into my new home with dedicated theatre, and am yet to give this sub a real go. It will be my only sub. But dual 18's will be plenty for me.

I can also concur that these push/pull dual 18" don't seem to move much at all to create vast amounts of clean bass. It's really impressive. With the limited listening sessions I had while it was temporarily set up in our old house, I was blown away by the depth and clarity of the bass.

My full setup is:

7 x MTM210 main channels
4 x MT110SR atmos channels
1 x V3600i subwoofer

7 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (7 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)
4 channel Elektra HD2 Power amp (4 x 200w RMS - all ch. driven)

JVC X9500 Projector
Crystalmorphic lens
Lens Motor
165" 2.35:1 AusTheatreScreens screen

No AV Processor yet - tossing up between Yamaha CX-A5100 or Marantz 8802a. Kinda wish replacements for these were available to make a better choice.
I agree with the guys, very impressive theater/equipment list. Can you post pics, once you get settled in, of the theater and equipment? I have a soft spot for the MTM210 and I thought about going with the exact speaker set-up as yours.

Equipment List: JVC RS500, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Panasonic UB420, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.

Last edited by Mike Butny; 07-29-2017 at 10:32 AM.
Mike Butny is online now  
post #35451 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 11:42 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,820
Mentioned: 418 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked: 12246
^^^

FWIW, I think that it's a common misconception that Audyssey sets bass (meaning sub) levels too low. I believe it is actually doing just what it needs to be doing. There is a much more detailed discussion of this issue in the subwoofer guide, linked below, but this is a synopsis. First, Audyssey's task is to set all channels, including the .1 (LFE) channel to play at the same volume at the MLP. It does that by employing a 75db test tone. And, although there can be some variance in the accuracy of the Audyssey mics, they will typically be accurate with respect to the equivalent volume of all of the channels. So, all of the channels might be set a decibel higher or lower than 75db, but there wouldn't be a wide variance between the regular channels and the .1 channel.

Second, once all of the channels have been set equally with that 75db test tone, the AVR will automatically reconfigure the regular channels to play at an "average" volume level of 85db at 0.0 MV (Reference). The .1 channel will play 10db higher than that. Peak volumes at Reference will be 105db for the regular channels, and 115db for the .1 LFE channel. So far, so good. The problem is that most of us don't like to listen at Reference levels, and as we reduce our volume to more normal levels (-10 to -20 is pretty typical) the bass frequencies fall-off perceptually much more quickly than those in our more normal hearing range. (Again, there is a detailed explanation of this phenomenon in the guide and you can also research the Equal Loudness Contours for more information.)

DEQ was specifically designed to help address that perceived loss of bass, at below Reference volumes, but even with DEQ employed most people find the bass somewhat lacking, so it clearly is not a complete solution. Most people seem to need to add about +3 to +6db in addition to DEQ. For those of us who prefer not to use DEQ, even heavier sub boosts are required. But, DEQ is a separate software system which many people don't use. Perceptually low bass levels is not specifically an Audyssey issue. Audyssey's job is to set all of the channels in a system to play at the same volume, and with the same timing, as measured at the MLP.

Audyssey has to start with all of the channels playing at the same volume in order to create the Flat curve and the Reference curve. If the bass frequencies were playing relatively louder than the other frequencies, there would be no way to EQ the audio system to a flat frequency response. But, once Audyssey has done its job, it's up to the user to decide how loudly he wants to listen, and how much extra bass he likes. And, listening levels and bass preferences can vary dramatically, so with or without DEQ, there would be no one-size-fits-all solution to bass levels.

If we all listened at Reference volumes, in a properly calibrated system, we would be hearing the bass frequencies in movies just as the film mixers intended for us to hear them. (DEQ would be completely neutral at that point.) At that Reference level, the only additional sub boost that most of us might want would be for purposes of individual preference. And, I suspect that most of those boosts would be pretty modest. But, since most of us don't listen at Reference levels, there is a nearly universal requirement to add bass to a properly calibrated and EQed system, at below Reference listening levels, just to get back to the acoustic balance that film makers intended for us to hear.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-29-2017 at 12:03 PM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #35452 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 12:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,696
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1022 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

FWIW, I think that it's a common misconception that Audyssey sets bass (meaning sub) levels too low. I believe it is actually doing just what it needs to be doing. There is a much more detailed discussion of this issue in the subwoofer guide, linked below, but this is a synopsis. First, Audyssey's task is to set all channels, including the .1 (LFE) channel to play at the same volume at the MLP. It does that by employing a 75db test tone. And, although there can be some variance in the accuracy of the Audyssey mics, they will typically be accurate with respect to the equivalent volume of all of the channels. So, all of the channels might be set a decibel higher or lower than 75db, but there wouldn't be a wide variance between the regular channels and the .1 channel.

Second, once all of the channels have been set equally with that 75db test tone, the AVR will automatically reconfigure the regular channels to play at an "average" volume level of 85db at 0.0 MV (Reference). The .1 channel will play 10db higher than that. Peak volumes at Reference will be 105db for the regular channels, and 115db for the .1 LFE channel. So far, so good. The problem is that most of us don't like to listen at Reference levels, and as we reduce our volume to more normal levels (-10 to -20 is pretty typical) the bass frequencies fall-off perceptually much more quickly than those in our more normal hearing range. (Again, there is a detailed explanation of this phenomenon in the guide and you can also research the Equal Loudness Contours for more information.)

DEQ was specifically designed to help address that perceived loss of bass, at below Reference volumes, but even with DEQ employed most people find the bass somewhat lacking, so it clearly is not a complete solution. Most people seem to need to add about +3 to +6db in addition to DEQ. For those of us who prefer not to use DEQ, even heavier sub boosts are required. But, DEQ is a separate software system which many people don't use. Perceptually low bass levels is not specifically an Audyssey issue. Audyssey's job is to set all of the channels in a system to play at the same volume, and with the same timing, as measured at the MLP.

Audyssey has to start with all of the channels playing at the same volume in order to create the Flat curve and the Reference curve. If the bass frequencies were playing relatively louder than the other frequencies, there would be no way to EQ the audio system to a flat frequency response. But, once Audyssey has done its job, it's up to the user to decide how loudly he wants to listen, and how much extra bass he likes. And, listening levels and bass preferences can vary dramatically, so with or without DEQ, there would be no one-size-fits-all solution to bass levels.

If we all listened at Reference volumes, in a properly calibrated system, we would be hearing the bass frequencies in movies just as the film mixers intended for us to hear them. (DEQ would be completely neutral at that point.) At that Reference level, the only additional sub boost that most of us might want would be for purposes of individual preference. And, I suspect that most of those boosts would be pretty modest. But, since most of us don't listen at Reference levels, there is a nearly universal requirement to add bass to a properly calibrated and EQed system, at below Reference listening levels, just to get back to the acoustic balance that film makers intended for us to hear.

Regards,
Mike


Excellent post!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mthomas47 likes this.
healthnut is offline  
post #35453 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 12:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Sekosche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,438
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1512 Post(s)
Liked: 3829
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

DEQ was specifically designed to help address that perceived loss of bass, at below Reference volumes, but even with DEQ employed most people find the bass somewhat lacking, so it clearly is not a complete solution. Most people seem to need to add about +3 to +6db in addition to DEQ. For those of us who prefer not to use DEQ, even heavier sub boosts are required. But, DEQ is a separate software system which many people don't use. Perceptually low bass levels is not specifically an Audyssey issue. Audyssey's job is to set all of the channels in a system to play at the same volume, and with the same timing, as measured at the MLP.

Regards,
Mike
I left DEQ on for TV and movies the last few years, but a couple months ago when I added two more V1801, I turned off DEQ and added an extra 4dB sub boost from my normal 6-8dB up to a 10-12dB boost with Audyssey Flat. I'm really liking it this way, but may go back to DEQ for a little while to A/B some content.

To my ear, it sounds cleaner at high volumes with DEQ off, so I may have been hearing more bloated bass with DEQ on at typical listening volumes around -10MV. Though the added headroom I have now, lower distortion, and smoother FR might have something to do with this as well.

Also, I have a love hate relationship with what DEQ does with the surround channels, as it really makes them pop during surround rich movies but can easily over power the front speakers, collapse the sound stage, and ruin the immersion.

What do most people here prefer that use Audyssey?

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA TV1512 x2; MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, MiniDSP 2x4 HD
PJ: Epson 5050UB
Screen: Silver Ticket 106" HC
Sekosche is online now  
post #35454 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 01:11 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,820
Mentioned: 418 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5983 Post(s)
Liked: 12246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I left DEQ on for TV and movies the last few years, but a couple months ago when I added two more V1801, I turned off DEQ and added an extra 4dB sub boost from my normal 6-8dB up to a 10-12dB boost with Audyssey Flat. I'm really liking it this way, but may go back to DEQ for a little while to A/B some content.

To my ear, it sounds cleaner at high volumes with DEQ off, so I may have been hearing more bloated bass with DEQ on at typical listening volumes around -10MV. Though the added headroom I have now, lower distortion, and smoother FR might have something to do with this as well.

Also, I have a love hate relationship with what DEQ does with the surround channels, as it really makes them pop during surround rich movies but can easily over power the front speakers, collapse the sound stage, and ruin the immersion.

What do most people here prefer that use Audyssey?
I used to have a bit of a love/hate relationship with DEQ, too. But, a couple of years ago I completely quit using it and now our relationship is perfect. From long participation on the Audyssey thread, I would say that most people who have Audyssey do use DEQ, some by default and some by deliberate choice. Virtually everyone who doesn't use it employees an independent sub boost to compensate. I had two primary issues with DEQ.

First, it boosts the bass in all of the channels and not just in the .1 channel, and I thought that a bass boost in the center channel sometimes made dialogue sound a little unnatural. Second, like yourself, I didn't particularly enjoy the surround boost. Some movies and TV shows already add some extra surround boost for ambiance. Over time, I found it annoying. But, both of those things are strictly YMMV issues. Many people love DEQ!

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #35455 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 01:48 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 14,299
Mentioned: 291 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6110 Post(s)
Liked: 5670
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
That's really impressive if they're not push/pull and still don't vibrate excessively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Push pull won't counteract vibrations like dual-opposed will. The heavy MDF cabinet limits the vibrations IME.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #35456 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 01:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
subacabra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Hillsborough, New Jersey
Posts: 2,944
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1955 Post(s)
Liked: 5719
I use dynamic eq for most content unless I'm pushing things over -20. I also use dynamic volume but only for cable to help boost the dialogue since I rarely listen to regular old tv over -35.
Currently my sub levels are only boosted 3 db from what audyssey set them to.
Especially with the nearfield the bass is pretty extreme.
subacabra is online now  
post #35457 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 02:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Audy is known to do that especially with the bass response, I believe it's important to check all channel levels post Audy calibration using REW to take measurements at the MLP with speakers set at or close to 75dB and sub channel 85dB with MV at 30 dB, sweep levels -3dBFS. Using the AVR's PN test tones will give inaccurate results as they are not Audy (calibrated) tones. You can adjust gain on the sub to compensate for the lower output level Audy sets for the sub. 50% seems very high, do you have an SPL meter to confirm the level?
I don't use REW. I do have an SPL, although I've really just let Audyssey do its thing and then bumped up bass in the subwoofer gain and also in the "speaker" setting. I'm sure I'm running quite hot, but I don't know that I've ever gone higher than -10 MV while watching a movie. Also, I find that many of the sources are just crap that I listen to. I listen to most music with the Spotify app via Fire. More recent songs sound pretty good, but older ones are definitely lacking.

Audio is a very complicated and aggravating thing. You can have everything calibrated great for one source (i.e. Blu-Rays), but then many other things might sound bad depending on whether it's HBO streamed vs. live, etc.
albatros43 is offline  
post #35458 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 04:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 7,286
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3852 Post(s)
Liked: 12979
I agree with Mike's post on Audyssey.

Let's be honest. It's not Audyssey that's broken... we are the one's who are broken. We are the 1% of the population that thinks having multiple 15" or 18" subwoofers is normal. Sometimes we watch subpar movies just because they have great bass moments. We bring our friends over to watch 30 second demos of incredible bass scenes so we can show them how our subwoofers can knock things off the shelves. We don't just like our bass, we like our bass HOT! Right now I'm running 9dB hot over what Audyssey thinks it should be.

This place is an asylum for bass addicts. But since we're all alike we think this is normal.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #35459 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 04:26 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I agree with Mike's post on Audyssey.

Let's be honest. It's not Audyssey that's broken... we are the one's who are broken. We are the 1% of the population that thinks having multiple 15" or 18" subwoofers is normal. Sometimes we watch subpar movies just because they have great bass moments. We bring our friends over to watch 30 second demos of incredible bass scenes so we can show them how our subwoofers can knock things off the shelves. We don't just like our bass, we like our bass HOT! Right now I'm running 9dB hot over what Audyssey thinks it should be.

This place is an asylum for bass addicts. But since we're all alike we think this is normal.
"This place is an asylum for bass addicts." Love this statement. I bet a fair amount of our better half's think we need professional treatment or group therapy. I know mine does.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
oneeyeblind, gbreda and Hopinater like this.
dprizal is offline  
post #35460 of 56829 Old 07-29-2017, 05:39 PM
Member
 
scott_richardson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I agree with the guys, very impressive theater/equipment list. Can you post pics, once you get settled in, of the theater and equipment? I have a soft spot for the MTM210 and I thought about going with the exact speaker set-up as yours.
Certainly. I'll pull some pics down from DTV Forum where I have posted the pics, and put them up here. Are you happy for me to put the pics in here? Or somewhere else? Theatre isn't fully set up yet, but can post progress images etc. Actually need to get the sub into the room... it's rather heavy!
Mike Butny and Sekosche like this.
scott_richardson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
chuffitychuffchuff , chuffmaster , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , hr chuff'n'stuff , ipal , neo , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , s1512 , s3000i , S3600i , s7201 , tv36 , tv42 , v1500 , v1512 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off