Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1213 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36361 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I watched 3 episode of Ray Donavan and the season finale of GOT last night and I'm sold with the plywood platform experiment. If I can notice a difference on tv material then its the real deal. I have the plywood separated from the floor using 2 1/2" furniture grippers which were an improvement vs having the plywood laying directly on the floor. I'm using 3/4" thick wood and its sort of hidden. I made sure the wood was slightly larger than the bottom metal frame but smaller than the dimensions of the couch so the wood does not stick out and is only visible if you look under the couch. I also attach 2 pieces of 2' wood strips to the plywood ( in front and back of the couch) to make sure the couch doesn't slip off the plywood as both end seats recline. This little experiment may have saved me some $$$$$$ because as of right now I'm extremely happy with the tactile/vibrations sensation I know get at the MLP. Now after saying all that, If I was going to add more should I trade in my S3000I for a S3601 and I would have an S3600/S3601 combo or pick up an another S3000I and have 3 subs, that would look kick as$ with 3 subs up front and dual S3000I co-located would have more output than 1 S3601 so with the combo of S3600/2 S3000I's should put me close to 7201's output. Opinions?
Mike, I get a lot of TR now with my all wood frame couch with 4" x 4" feet on carpet over concrete, just wondering if I put absorbers under the four feet of the couch if this would make any difference? Like I mentioned before the wife can feel the vibrations a floor above me with her feet on the floor, actually the walls seem to flex as well up there. Thia is with the V1801s, I don't know what will happen with the 7201. The 7201 will also be supported with oak squares with sliders on them. I'm building much bigger oak feet for the 7201, same design as I posted in an earlier thread.

I think the concrete is actually supplying most of the TR in my room so I really don't want to change much except maybe isolate the couch's feet from the carpet over concrete and test with this and without the isolators............just thinking out loud......
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post #36362 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Mike, I get a lot of TR now with my all wood frame couch with 4" x 4" feet on carpet over concrete, just wondering if I put absorbers under the four feet of the couch if this would make any difference? Like I mentioned before the wife can feel the vibrations a floor above me with her feet on the floor, actually the walls seem to flex as well up there. Thia is with the V1801s, I don't know what will happen with the 7201. The 7201 will also be supported with oak squares with sliders on them. I'm building much bigger oak feet for the 7201, same design as I posted in an earlier thread.

I think the concrete is actually supplying most of the TR in my room so I really don't want to change much except maybe isolate the couch's feet from the carpet over concrete and test with this and without the isolators............just thinking out loud......
Jeff: With your entire couch being wood including the legs you are in good shape. You can try just adding absorbers but thinking about if you added a sheet of 3/4" plywood you would have more surface material for the bass to transmit energy to the wooden legs on the couch. So with just the isolator pads the bass would hit just the wooden legs ( couch too) and transfer energy to the entire couch but with isolator pads under a sheet of plywood, the couch has the potential to receive much more energy from your subs as it is now receiving energy from the sheet of plywood and its legs combined.
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post #36363 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I watched 3 episodes of Ray Donavan and the season finale of GOT last night and I'm sold with the plywood platform experiment. If I can notice a difference on tv material then its the real deal. I have the plywood separated from the floor using 10, 2 1/2" furniture grippers which were an improvement vs having the plywood laying directly on the floor. I'm using 3/4" thick wood and its sort of hidden. I made sure the wood was slightly larger than the bottom metal frame but smaller than the dimensions of the couch so the wood does not stick out and is only visible if you look under the couch. I also attach 2 pieces of 2' wood strips to the plywood ( in front and back of the couch) to make sure the couch doesn't slip off the plywood as both end seats recline. This little experiment may have saved me some $$$$$$ because as of right now I'm extremely happy with the tactile/vibrations sensation I know get at the MLP. Now after saying all that, If I was going to add more should I trade in my S3000I for a S3601 and I would have an S3600/S3601 combo or pick up an another S3000I and have 3 subs, that would look kick as$ with 3 subs up front and dual S3000I co-located would have more output than 1 S3601 so with the combo of S3600/2 S3000I's should put me close to 7201's output. Opinions?
Far be it from me to ever promote the purchase of more subs... but unless you want matching subs for aesthetic purposes (3600 and 3601) I would definitely keep your S3000i and add a 2nd one ... for a total of three subs with an output approaching the S7201.
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post #36364 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:27 AM
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@Pulloutchamp I think the room is too large now to consider sealed without dropping some serious $$ on S7201s or several S3601s.

If anything, I would consider adding another V1801 right behind the MLP and they should give you more than enough of everything.
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post #36365 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Jeff: With your entire couch being wood including the legs you are in good shape. You can try just adding absorbers but thinking about if you added a sheet of 3/4" plywood you would have more surface material for the bass to transmit energy to the wooden legs on the couch. So with just the isolator pads the bass would hit just the wooden legs ( couch too) and transfer energy to the entire couch but with isolator pads under a sheet of plywood, the couch has the potential to receive much more energy from your subs as it is now receiving energy from the sheet of plywood and its legs combined.
To even further enhance the sensation and if possible, take the legs off so the entire wood frame of the couch gets vibrations and not just the points where the legs hit. I found having the bass/shake from the subs and Buttkickers much more intense once I took the legs off my couch so the entire perimeter came in contact with the platfform.

One question I have though is which is more tactile, leather or cloth? I would think leather? I have a cloth couch down there now, but have a leather one upstairs I can use if that would increase the sensation more (?).
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post #36366 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Okay Mike, Toe, Climber, Fatty and anyone else interested in this plywood experiment. I've jumped into the pool and ordered two sets of those Buttkicker Ri-4 isolation pads from parts express. Each set has five pads so that should give me more than enough.



Mark Seaton provided us an excellent tip regarding rubber pads and what to consider when choosing them but since I was told there would be no math I decided I would go with the ones Buttkicker sells and trust that that THEY did the math. I have 45 days to try them so if they aren't right I can always send them back and try something else.



So here's a question that I would love input on. When it comes to wood I'm thinking 1/2 or 5/8 inch should be okay. But do you guys think the type of wood would matter? I'm even thinking OSB might work well. Theres a nice exchange going on between SBuger and Coolrda on the "Your Home Theater ULF Score" thread regarding this but it looks like it's a little different situation.



Anyway, now it's a waiting game until those pads come, so I have some time before I need to get the wood.


Awesome Hop, looking forward to your findings!


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post #36367 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Pulloutchamp I think the room is too large now to consider sealed without dropping some serious $$ on S7201s or several S3601s.

If anything, I would consider adding another V1801 right behind the MLP and they should give you more than enough of everything.
Marc I agree with this, adding that third V1801 behind the MLP with the other two front corner loaded just put the whole experience over the top, I still don't care for the rear sub firing directly into my back but I'm not like the rest of the guys that are looking for this. Doing this with the third sub actually improved the FR at the MLP as well, it really is a game changer if that's what you're looking for, I can appreciate why so many guys go this route, it's like having four subs in my opinion. This is especially useful if your room is really large, best case scenario to make the room seem and feel smaller.
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post #36368 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:55 AM
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@Pulloutchamp I think the room is too large now to consider sealed without dropping some serious $$ on S7201s or several S3601s.

If anything, I would consider adding another V1801 right behind the MLP and they should give you more than enough of everything.
Pulloutchamp

How many subs do you have now?

If you still have 2 PSA V1801s and 1 PSA V1500, I would consider at least trading in the V1500 for a V1801, or better yet, trading in a V1801 and a V1500 for a V3601.

I can bring over my sub and test it out in your room since it should be very similar to the V3601.
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post #36369 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
To even further enhance the sensation and if possible, take the legs off so the entire wood frame of the couch gets vibrations and not just the points where the legs hit. I found having the bass/shake from the subs and Buttkickers much more intense once I took the legs off my couch so the entire perimeter came in contact with the platfform.

One question I have though is which is more tactile, leather or cloth? I would think leather? I have a cloth couch down there now, but have a leather one upstairs I can use if that would increase the sensation more (?).
I would say leather as I often feel like I'm getting shocked from my leather couch. I thought about adding a few small pieces of wood in the areas that the metal frame is not touching the plywood. If I was Jeff, I would definitely take the legs off.
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post #36370 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
To even further enhance the sensation and if possible, take the legs off so the entire wood frame of the couch gets vibrations and not just the points where the legs hit. I found having the bass/shake from the subs and Buttkickers much more intense once I took the legs off my couch so the entire perimeter came in contact with the platfform.

One question I have though is which is more tactile, leather or cloth? I would think leather? I have a cloth couch down there now, but have a leather one upstairs I can use if that would increase the sensation more (?).
I could do this but would lower the couch by 5 inches, I would consider cutting a piece of plywood and drilling holes so I could thread the feet through the plywood and back into the wood frame of couch. I don't think this would help much or maybe it would............I'm already vibrating on the couch as is, once I get the 7201 I will set up some tests with containers of sand or water and observe their behavior....
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post #36371 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:08 PM
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I could do this but would lower the couch by 5 inches, I would consider cutting a piece of plywood and drilling holes so I could thread the feet through the plywood and back into the wood frame of couch. I don't think this would help much or maybe it would............I'm already vibrating on the couch as is, once I get the 7201 I will set up some tests with containers of sand or water and observe their behavior....
Jeff: The plywood platform will take it to another level . I could never go back to having my couch directly on concrete after experiencing the plywood effect.
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post #36372 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:19 PM
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I am curious as to what were the details of those four DIY subs that you were not quite happy with: the make and the size of drivers, the cubic feet of the sealed enclosures and the amount of RMS power being sent to each driver?
Hello,

I believe the cabinets were in the 3 - 3.5 cu feet range. The drivers are Elemental Designs 16 O.v2 woofers with 22mm xmax.
RMS power was on the order of 1000 watts to each woofer. The Peavey CS4080HZ amp is rated at ~2000 watts RMS into 4 ohms per channel.

I think the system was very capable and it did in fact sound pretty good. Not as good as the new S3000i's though. The problem I had was the endless measuring tuning / filter and EQ adjustments. I always felt like I was leaving some performance on the table. I just wanted a fully engineered solution. Also ultra low bass playback was difficult as I believe there was some filtering going on in either the Behringer crossover / EQ or the Peavey amplifier itself.
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post #36373 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:28 PM
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II'm sold with the plywood platform experiment. If I can notice a difference on tv material then its the real deal. I have the plywood separated from the floor using 10, 2 1/2" furniture grippers which were an improvement vs having the plywood laying directly on the floor. I'm using 3/4" thick wood and its sort of hidden. I made sure the wood was slightly larger than the bottom metal frame but smaller than the dimensions of the couch so the wood does not stick out and is only visible if you look under the couch.
Is your floor carpeted or tile/hardwood?

Also, I take it you don't have the room for something like a S1801 directly behind your MLP? That would give you a similar feeling of having a room full of 18" subs. The near-field is pretty intense. It is comparable to a Crowson I have and actually more intense with some content being on a floating/suspended floor it can bounce my hand of the side table I use for mouse pad to control my HTPC. Plus using it gives more impact in the midbass than the Crowson. I just prefer the near field sub overall to the Crowson. But I know many people do not have the room for one or don't want it because of aesthetics.
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post #36374 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Pulloutchamp I think the room is too large now to consider sealed without dropping some serious $$ on S7201s or several S3601s.

If anything, I would consider adding another V1801 right behind the MLP and they should give you more than enough of everything.
Original plan was 2 V3601's , thought about the 7201 , after listening for a bit yesterday I think the 2 1801's are more than sufficient for a non-avs PSA forum follower lol... Will have to do some more listening tonight and get them moved around more towards their correct places...Almost seems like the V36 may be too much (blasphemy , I know) and almost wasteful. I really dont want to get into more than 2 subs , mainly to avoid placement issues , and woman issues...Just curious if 2 S3601s can do what 2 V1801s are doing plus a little more on the lower end...
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post #36375 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:39 PM
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One question I have though is which is more tactile, leather or cloth? I would think leather? I have a cloth couch down there now, but have a leather one upstairs I can use if that would increase the sensation more (?).
I think it might depend on the construction of the couch also but I have seen Mark Seaton talk about leather furniture providing more tactile feel. I don't remember his exact words, but it enhanced/increased the feel of the bass.

Edit here is one reference but I have seen Mark himself post about it but can't find it https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post28285858 "Mark Seaton told me that leather is better for tactile feel than cloth and he is right"

Lol, I see you were the next poster in that same thread I linked so you have already seen it
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post #36376 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:41 PM
 
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Pulloutchamp

How many subs do you have now?

If you still have 2 PSA V1801s and 1 PSA V1500, I would consider at least trading in the V1500 for a V1801, or better yet, trading in a V1801 and a V1500 for a V3601.

I can bring over my sub and test it out in your room since it should be very similar to the V3601.
Just the 2 1801's and 2 PC12+ in the garage....Only using the 2 1801's rt now....Although I havent got to hear a 3601 , I do remember the Cap1400 at Marcs giant house and it was alot...Now im thinking my little house would take a beating with a Cap1400 or 2 3601's ...I think the 1801's right now are sufficient , but could use a little more all around and down low...
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post #36377 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:42 PM
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Original plan was 2 V3601's , thought about the 7201 , after listening for a bit yesterday I think the 2 1801's are more than sufficient for a non-avs PSA forum follower lol... Will have to do some more listening tonight and get them moved around more towards their correct places...Almost seems like the V36 may be too much (blasphemy , I know) and almost wasteful. I really dont want to get into more than 2 subs , mainly to avoid placement issues , and woman issues...Just curious if 2 S3601s can do what 2 V1801s are doing plus a little more on the lower end...
Please stick with ported subs.

Below 40 Hz, each V1801 is capable of producing twice as much output as a S3601. Your room is just too big for you to benefit from the cabin gain.
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post #36378 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:48 PM
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Is your floor carpeted or tile/hardwood?

Also, I take it you don't have the room for something like a S1801 directly behind your MLP? That would give you a similar feeling of having a room full of 18" subs. The near-field is pretty intense. It is comparable to a Crowson I have and actually more intense with some content being on a floating/suspended floor it can bounce my hand of the side table I use for mouse pad to control my HTPC. Plus using it gives more impact in the midbass than the Crowson. I just prefer the near field sub overall to the Crowson. But I know many people do not have the room for one or don't want it because of aesthetics.
I have fake hardwood laminate flooring( http://www.homedepot.com/p/TrafficMA...2012/100593151, something like this) with a piece of 10 x 20feet carpet on top. If I buy another sub I may try it behind the couch but I rather keep it away as my kids have friends over and they like to game and watch movies in the theater room and I would feel at ease if they were not near the subs. I'm always telling my kids and their friends" do not touch anything, this stuff is expensive"
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post #36379 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:49 PM
 
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Please stick with ported subs.

Below 40 Hz, each V1801 is capable of producing twice as much output as a S3601. Your room is just too big for you to benefit from the cabin gain.
Duly noted! I will take some pics tonight , although I say 30x30 , it is definitely less than that with a couple of cutouts and stuff....Ill take my measuring tape home and get some dimensions...
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post #36380 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I think it might depend on the construction of the couch also but I have seen Mark Seaton talk about leather furniture providing more tactile feel. I don't remember his exact words, but it enhanced/increased the feel of the bass.

Edit here is one reference but I have seen Mark himself post about it but can't find it https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post28285858 "Mark Seaton told me that leather is better for tactile feel than cloth and he is right"

Lol, I see you were the next poster in that same thread I linked so you have already seen it
Crap, I must be getting old since I don't even remember that! Thanks for refreshing my memory!
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post #36381 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Please stick with ported subs.

Below 40 Hz, each V1801 is capable of producing twice as much output as a S3601. Your room is just too big for you to benefit from the cabin gain.
I think you meant below 30hz and the S3601 would have the advantage below say 15hz and would extend deeper.

V1801 16-25hz 120.1dbs
31-50hz 129.5

S3601 16-25hz 118dbs
31-50hz 131

He may need dual V3601's.
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post #36382 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:03 PM
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Here Floyd Toole talks about he used a near-field 18" sub. I hadn't heard this in the interview before when I listened in the past but relistening again yesterday I heard it and thought it was interesting as he verified what I found is that it gives a very good FR also at the listening position, it really can help smooth out the FR. https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/14 starts at 39:27 he talks about it.

The whole interview is good for people that are new to subwoofers and subwoofer setups. Talks about rooms, sub placement, multiple subs and much more.
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post #36383 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I think you meant below 30hz and the S3601 would have the advantage below say 15hz and would extend deeper.

V1801 16-25hz 120.1dbs
31-50hz 129.5

S3601 16-25hz 118dbs
31-50hz 131
Oops... I used S3600's numbers to compared with V1801's... My bad.

However, as you pointed out, the V1801 is pretty much a wash with the S3601 from 16 ~ 50 Hz. Is it worth the trouble to upgrade to a S3601 when a V3601 is just $150 more? For the really deep stuff to be realized, you need a lot of dBs... the output down low plus cabin gain and boundary gain.

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post #36384 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Oops... I used S3600's numbers to compared with V1801's... My bad.

However, as you pointed out, the V1801 is pretty much a wash with the S3601 from 16 ~ 50 Hz. Is it worth the trouble to upgrade to a S3601 when a V3601 is just $150 more? For the really deep stuff to be realized, you need a lot of dBs... the output down low plus cabin gain and boundary gain.
2 V3601's and 1 V1801 nearfield and I think he would be set. I love spending other peoples money .
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post #36385 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Oops... I used S3600's numbers to compared with V1801's... My bad.

However, as you pointed out, the V1801 is pretty much a wash with the S3601 from 16 ~ 50 Hz. Is it worth the trouble to upgrade to a S3601 when a V3601 is just $150 more? For the really deep stuff to be realized, you need a lot of dBs... the output down low plus cabin gain and boundary gain.
I see what you mean , more of a lateral move than the improvement down low as im looking for...
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post #36386 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
2 V3601's and 1 V1801 nearfield and I think he would be set. I love spending other peoples money
lol...fun isnt it? I think the 2 V36 will just level the damn house lol....
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post #36387 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
I see what you mean , more of a lateral move than the improvement down low as im looking for...
Bingo!
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post #36388 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:40 PM
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I wanted to share my latest purchase with those who have any piece of equipment that gets very hot. I bought: https://www.acinfinity.com/component...ystem-17-inch/ to help keep my Marantz SR7009 receiver cool as it gets hot. I have the T8 set for the fans to kick in when the temp reaches 90 degrees, it has a LED screen which can be disabled if the light bothers you. If you do a search you can find a $20 off coupon. I highly recommend this product.
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post #36389 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
I see what you mean , more of a lateral move than the improvement down low as im looking for...
This thread is must read IMO: Nalthien's Big-Room Challenge: PSA V1500 vs S3000i

Sealed subs can work in large rooms (you heard the dual Seaton F18s in mine), but to what benefits? You will lose tactile response compared to the ported subs. Also, deep bass below 20Hz caused my fireplace, doors, cabinets, and dishes to rattle more than the seats or listeners.

If you like the sound of sealed, are willing to sacrafice some TR, and can eliminate annoying resonances the S3601s could work quite nicely.

After speaking with Climber over the weekend it seems that the S7201 may bridge the TR gap between sealed and ported. Next weekend is pretty busy but soon I hope to visit and take some measurements. I need to get the RPI device built for TR measurements.
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post #36390 of 55465 Old 08-28-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
lol...fun isnt it? I think the 2 V36 will just level the damn house lol....
Nah... it just FEELS like its going to level the house.

I really like the power of duals V3601's but when I'm sitting in the HT I forget how they shake the whole house. I was reminded of this the other day when one of the kids was watching something in the basement HT... something with only light to moderate bass. I was sitting upstairs and it felt like I was sitting in a massage chair.

They are a serious sub and will not be ignored... no matter WHAT part of the house you're in. But they are soooooo much fun to have. I highly suggest picking one (or two) up... if you dare.

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