Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1214 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 65927Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #36391 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 03:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mike Butny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orland Park, Il
Posts: 2,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Nah... it just FEELS like its going to level the house.

I really like the power of duals V3601's but when I'm sitting in the HT I forget how they shake the whole house. I was reminded of this the other day when one of the kids was watching something in the basement HT... something with only light to moderate bass. I was sitting upstairs and it felt like I was sitting in a massage chair.

They are a serious sub and will not be ignored... no matter WHAT part of the house you're in. But they are soooooo much fun to have. I highly suggest picking one (or two) up... if you dare.
Funny you said that we are so caught up in our rooms that we do not think about the rest of the house. I was explaining to my 13-year-old son about my Plywood experiment ( he's the only that will actually listen when I'm talking about home theater stuff,lol ). I told him I watched Alien: Covenant the other night and I definitely felt a difference and he said " that's what you were watching, the whole damn house was shaking" .

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.

Last edited by Mike Butny; 08-28-2017 at 03:12 PM.
Mike Butny is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #36392 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 03:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mike Butny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orland Park, Il
Posts: 2,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This thread is must read IMO: Nalthien's Big-Room Challenge: PSA V1500 vs S3000i

Sealed subs can work in large rooms (you heard the dual Seaton F18s in mine), but to what benefits? You will lose tactile response compared to the ported subs. Also, deep bass below 20Hz caused my fireplace, doors, cabinets, and dishes to rattle more than the seats or listeners.

If you like the sound of sealed, are willing to sacrafice some TR, and can eliminate annoying resonances the S3601s could work quite nicely.

After speaking with Climber over the weekend it seems that the S7201 may bridge the TR gap between sealed and ported. Next weekend is pretty busy but soon I hope to visit and take some measurements. I need to get the RPI device built for TR measurements.
I actually read through the entire thread a few times, it's a classic!!!!!!
ahblaza likes this.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.
Mike Butny is online now  
post #36393 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,705
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Liked: 2597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulloutchamp View Post
I see what you mean , more of a lateral move than the improvement down low as im looking for...
This thread is must read IMO: Nalthien's Big-Room Challenge: PSA V1500 vs S3000i

Sealed subs can work in large rooms (you heard the dual Seaton F18s in mine), but to what benefits? You will lose tactile response compared to the ported subs. Also, deep bass below 20Hz caused my fireplace, doors, cabinets, and dishes to rattle more than the seats or listeners.

If you like the sound of sealed, are willing to sacrafice some TR, and can eliminate annoying resonances the S3601s could work quite nicely.

After speaking with Climber over the weekend it seems that the S7201 may bridge the TR gap between sealed and ported. Next weekend is pretty busy but soon I hope to visit and take some measurements. I need to get the RPI device built for TR measurements.
Indeed! I know it's not fair to compare the S7201 to dial XV15SE subs, but my body pulsates with the sealed 7201 like nothing I've ever felt.
Mike Butny and Pulloutchamp like this.
climber07 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #36394 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 03:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Indeed! I know it's not fair to compare the S7201 to dial XV15SE subs, but my body pulsates with the sealed 7201 like nothing I've ever felt.
The 7201 is probably the equivalent of 8+ S1500 so it would be liking comparing 2 v1500 to 8+ s1500. Just a touch more output
Mike Butny and climber07 like this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator
bscool is offline  
post #36395 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 04:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ahblaza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Steeler Country
Posts: 4,059
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2485 Post(s)
Liked: 3529
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Is your floor carpeted or tile/hardwood?

Also, I take it you don't have the room for something like a S1801 directly behind your MLP? That would give you a similar feeling of having a room full of 18" subs. The near-field is pretty intense. It is comparable to a Crowson I have and actually more intense with some content being on a floating/suspended floor it can bounce my hand of the side table I use for mouse pad to control my HTPC. Plus using it gives more impact in the midbass than the Crowson. I just prefer the near field sub overall to the Crowson. But I know many people do not have the room for one or don't want it because of aesthetics.
This is exactly what I described in my review of the V1801s, I had three of them with one firing directly (inches away) into back of the LP and I have to say I've never experienced this type of TR before. I can't really describe it in words but during longer bass heavy scenes I felt as if the entire couch was floating on air with violent body massaging. It actually was too much for me with my breathing, my chest cavity or thoracic area felt constricted, like I had a straight jacket on with electric current flowing through it.

Like you said it was like having 18" subs everywhere, well I did have two other ones but it felt more like having six. I believe the plywood method will get you a glimpse of what a direct 18' driver firing into the back of your LP will do especially at high SPL output. I literally had to turn the trim level down. With certain material it's downright scary for me, it's scary in my space without the sub behind the LP, the three V1801s did crush my room. What surprised me the most with the sub at the back of LP was the smoothing aspect of the FR graph and this may sound ridiculous but the sub was not localized, make any sense?

Just for curiosity sake I have built a portable wheeled support table to place the 7201 on it's side firing into the back of my LP, it won't be a long review as I don't know how much of that I can tolerate before cardiac or respiratory arrest................
bscool and Jaurhead like this.
ahblaza is online now  
post #36396 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 05:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
kyzer soze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
OK psychotic PSA subwoofer freaks, here is my contribution to the PSA subwoofer thread. If you don't have it(you probably don't), download "Down" by Fifth Harmony. Play it at reference level if your system is capable. This should make a most excellent music demo track. On my setup, the bass is loud, had a very crisp punch, while also being nice and deep. Not 17Hz Electronica deep, just nice deep music bass while have a nice strong punch at the same time.

If anyone tries it, let me know what you think. This will probably be the first song I demo for any guests.
My buddy just told me to listen to this track the other day. Bass is very clean it reminds of:

The chainsmokers- don't let me down

Ascend Sierra 2's (LCR & side surrounds) + Pioneer atmos modules. 5.1.4 setup
Marantz AV7703
Rythmik FV15HP
JVC DLA-X590R (RS 440) projector
Stewart StudioTek 130 screen
kyzer soze is offline  
post #36397 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 06:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
What surprised me the most with the sub at the back of LP was the smoothing aspect of the FR graph and this may sound ridiculous but the sub was not localized, make any sense?
Yeah, I noticed the same thing taking and taking a REW sweep of just the near-field sealed 18" I am using it has a very smooth frequency response. Which at first kind of surprised me but then I thought about it and since I am so close to it I am not getting the room mode interaction from, I getting mostly direction sound so it makes sense.

That audio clip I link to above Toole talks about it, I was surprised he would use a near-field. I had always thought of it as kind of a "makeshift" way to get the sensation of more bass. Like it was cheating, if I had enough subwoofers I wouldn't need a nearfield. So I resisted it until finally, my neighbors complained about the bass. So I had to figure something out to get that same feel without disturbing my neighbors and near-field solved the problem and eliminated the need for a Crowson I also bought to try first. The Crowson is nice but just something about an actual subwoofer giving the tactile feel that a Crowson cannot quite replicate. But if you do not have the room for a NF sub behind your MLP a Crowson will get you VERY close to the feeling of a nearfield subwoofer.

For those who do not know who Toole is, he worked for Harmon and has written books and paper on quite a few different things when it comes to sound. Some more of his writings on speaker placement and subwoofers can be read for free here http://www.harman.com/innovation?Cat...White%20papers and he has a new book out.
ahblaza and Hopinater like this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator
bscool is offline  
post #36398 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 06:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 4,883
Mentioned: 127 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3049 Post(s)
Liked: 10457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I think you meant below 30hz and the S3601 would have the advantage
We need to be careful about comparisons solely based on cea scoring. Not addressing you per se' Mike, you're just the post I clicked reply too..

It is important to understand what a "cea-2010" test represents and how limited it can be in trying to predict the way a subwoofer will "sound" in a given listening environment. I've tried to explain this a few times in the past without much success. It really would take much more time than I have today to do the topic---but here is an easy example.

A cea-2010 burst is a single frequency. For example, we burst 20hz for a fraction of a second. The amplifier isn't tasked by anything else---just full power sent to this one tone, for a fraction of a second. However in the real world movies are going to be a complex set of wave forms. There's not going to be individual tones except on a handful of "outlier" scenes that represent such a small cross-section of film bass they should be largely ignored. What IS very common will be bassy scenes that include loud/very loud effects <30hz in ADDITION to loud/very loud effects in the mid and upper bass.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume the only variable between two subs is the 30-100hz cea-2010 scoring. 15-30hz both subs score the same on cea-2010. But from 30-100hz one subwoofer is 6dB more powerful. We look at that and think "okay, both subs are going to sound the same on the deeper bass". But wait. Since we know there are (almost)always loud/very loud effects in the 30-100hz range we need to consider that the amplifier demands on one subwoofer will be significantly reduced for the majority of the operating bandwidth...perhaps only needing 1/4 to 1/2 the amplifier reserves! Thus, it will have more amp power available for the <30hz stuff. This can enable it to produce that bandwidth louder and cleaner with real world source material(movies in this context) even though a causal glance at the cea "scores" seem to indicate otherwise.

So not only does one product have much more mid/upper bass capabilities it will ALSO sound more powerful in the deeper bass as well.

I've seen so many puzzled comments in this context I've lost count. But HOW could sub xyz possibly sound as good as the acme sub? Acme is "superior"! There's something "suspicious" in denmark

Sometimes we need to step back and realize how complex all of this can be. You have the objective measurements and those, alone, can take years to get a solid handle on. Then trying to correlate those to subjective preference? I see guys spending a weekend on this and making statements with absolute certainty regarding acoustics and psycho acoustics. I'm going on 20 years of it and feel like I'm just beginning to understand many aspects of the process.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

The woods are lovely, dark and deep, But I have promises to keep,
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
post #36399 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 06:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,763
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 625 Post(s)
Liked: 257
Yeah I have my v1801 firing into the back of my recliner. You have to play with the gain a bit as the effect can be quite strong. While testing some bass heavy scenes I thought it was cool and sounded good but when I forgot about it and was into a movie the effect it gives is awesome. Hope that makes sense.
ahblaza and bscool like this.
keeper is online now  
post #36400 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 07:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 4,682
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2144 Post(s)
Liked: 2335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I wanted to share my latest purchase with those who have any piece of equipment that gets very hot. I bought: https://www.acinfinity.com/component...ystem-17-inch/ to help keep my Marantz SR7009 receiver cool as it gets hot. I have the T8 set for the fans to kick in when the temp reaches 90 degrees, it has a LED screen which can be disabled if the light bothers you. If you do a search you can find a $20 off coupon. I highly recommend this product.
That is a very elegant solution. I have 180mm computer fans on top of all of my receivers/pre pros sucking the hot air out. They just run all of the time that the receivers are turned on (USB powered).
Mike Butny and climber07 like this.
raynist is offline  
post #36401 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 07:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,836
Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3575 Post(s)
Liked: 11276
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I can't really describe it in words...

I don't know how much of that I can tolerate before cardiac or respiratory arrest
................
Ha Ha Ha.... I Love It! When you're using sentences like these to describe the bass you have (or will have) in your HT you know you're hardcore.
ahblaza likes this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #36402 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 09:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,705
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Liked: 2597
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
That is a very elegant solution. I have 180mm computer fans on top of all of my receivers/pre pros sucking the hot air out. They just run all of the time that the receivers are turned on (USB powered).
Same here man. I use two of these and you can adjust the speed and turn the LED on or off:



Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_0912 resized.jpg (723.8 KB, 456 views)
ahblaza and fastninja76 like this.

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
climber07 is offline  
post #36403 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 09:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
climber07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,705
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 806 Post(s)
Liked: 2597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I wanted to share my latest purchase with those who have any piece of equipment that gets very hot. I bought: https://www.acinfinity.com/component...ystem-17-inch/ to help keep my Marantz SR7009 receiver cool as it gets hot. I have the T8 set for the fans to kick in when the temp reaches 90 degrees, it has a LED screen which can be disabled if the light bothers you. If you do a search you can find a $20 off coupon. I highly recommend this product.
That is a super elegant and super cool looking solution. This reminds me of the professional rack-mount cooling solutions for IT systems. Very classy indeed!

Their page is permanently bookmarked on my browser now. Thanks man.
Mike Butny likes this.

Power Sound Audio S7201 Quad 18" 4000W Sealed Subwoofer - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
climber07 is offline  
post #36404 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 09:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Highlighted in red for clarity my question, which was different than what Tom had sai

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
We need to be careful about comparisons solely based on cea scoring. Not addressing you per se' Mike, you're just the post I clicked reply too..

It is important to understand what a "cea-2010" test represents and how limited it can be in trying to predict the way a subwoofer will "sound" in a given listening environment. I've tried to explain this a few times in the past without much success. It really would take much more time than I have today to do the topic---but here is an easy example.

A cea-2010 burst is a single frequency. For example, we burst 20hz for a fraction of a second. The amplifier isn't tasked by anything else---just full power sent to this one tone, for a fraction of a second. However in the real world movies are going to be a complex set of wave forms. There's not going to be individual tones except on a handful of "outlier" scenes that represent such a small cross-section of film bass they should be largely ignored. What IS very common will be bassy scenes that include loud/very loud effects <30hz in ADDITION to loud/very loud effects in the mid and upper bass.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume the only variable between two subs is the 30-100hz cea-2010 scoring. 15-30hz both subs score the same on cea-2010. But from 30-100hz one subwoofer is 6dB more powerful. We look at that and think "okay, both subs are going to sound the same on the deeper bass". But wait. Since we know there are (almost)always loud/very loud effects in the 30-100hz range we need to consider that the amplifier demands on one subwoofer will be significantly reduced for the majority of the operating bandwidth...perhaps only needing 1/4 to 1/2 the amplifier reserves! Thus, it will have more amp power available for the <30hz stuff. This can enable it to produce that bandwidth louder and cleaner with real world source material(movies in this context) even though a causal glance at the cea "scores" seem to indicate otherwise.

So not only does one product have much more mid/upper bass capabilities it will ALSO sound more powerful in the deeper bass as well.

I've seen so many puzzled comments in this context I've lost count. But HOW could sub xyz possibly sound as good as the acme sub? Acme is "superior"! There's something "suspicious" in denmark

Sometimes we need to step back and realize how complex all of this can be. You have the objective measurements and those, alone, can take years to get a solid handle on. Then trying to correlate those to subjective preference? I see guys spending a weekend on this and making statements with absolute certainty regarding acoustics and psycho acoustics. I'm going on 20 years of it and feel like I'm just beginning to understand many aspects of the process.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Good points. Something I was looking at more recently is the max long term output. So if someone/I looks at only cea 2010 max burst on the JTR 1400 and PSA XV30se it looks like the JTR 1400 has way more output. But then looking at max long term output they are much closer with the PSA having more output above 50hz. So if someone/I am pushing their/my system to the limits and running the subs on the edge or into distortion like some here do, then the JTR and XV30 will actually be very close in output with the PSA having more output above 50hz. At least that is my understanding.

I started looking at the max long term output more after reading a JL Audio paper on subs, amp, music and clipping and how most run their subs into clipping and then have power compression=reduced output.

Tom is my line of thinking that they would be closer in real world listening output for someone that really pushes the system to the limit or listens to clipped content or too many other factors? My understanding is that is what JL points out is it the music of today and it's low crest factor so it is much easier to play a clipped signal to the subs than music that has a higher crest factor from back in the 1980s. I use my system for mostly music that is why I think it applies to someone like me.

If someone wants to read about JLs take on it skip to page 19, the same thing would apply to home theater subwoofers also. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dio_081211.pdf





Highlighted in red for clarity my question, which was different than what Tom had said and hopefully it is clear I was not trying interpet his post to say anything else.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg XV30 vs 1400 max burst.jpg (106.4 KB, 474 views)
File Type: jpg XV30 vs 1400 max long term.jpg (104.5 KB, 469 views)

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

Last edited by bscool; 08-30-2017 at 02:51 PM.
bscool is offline  
post #36405 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 10:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
fastninja76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Monterey
Posts: 556
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 357 Post(s)
Liked: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Same here man. I use two of these and you can adjust the speed and turn the LED on or off:



I use this exact same fan on my Yamaha 1060. Works like a charm. Amazing how much heat it pulls out even under "moderate" usage.

Yamaha RX-A 1060
Emotiva BASX A3
Polk Audio RTi A9
Polk Audio CSi A6
PSA V3601
fastninja76 is online now  
post #36406 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 10:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,802
Mentioned: 313 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3652 Post(s)
Liked: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Good points. Something I was looking at more recently is the max long term output. So if someone/I looks at only cea 2010 max burst on the JTR 1400 and PSA XV30se it looks like the JTR 1400 has way more output. But then looking at max long term output they are much closer with the PSA having more output above 50hz. So if someone/I am pushing their/my system to the limits and running the subs on the edge or into distortion like some here do, then the JTR and XV30 will actually be very close in output with the PSA having more output above 50hz. At least that is my understanding.



I don't think that is what Tom was saying...

The Max long term output is just the highest long term output compression sweep. If you look at the long term output compression sweep, Ricci could have gone 5 dB higher with the Cap 1400 while XV-30FSE is heavily compressed and near its limit.

PSA XV-30FSE



JTR Cap 1400



Besides, if you read the write up, you will see that Tom sent his subs to Ricci and Jeff delivered his sub to Ricci. It is apparent that Ricci spent more time with the PSA subs so he took in-room CEA 2010... not so with JTR subs.

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is offline  
post #36407 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 10:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I don't think that is what Tom was saying...

The Max long term output is just the highest long term output compression sweep. If you look at the long term output compression sweep, Ricci could have gone 5 dB higher with the Cap 1400 while XV-30FSE is heavily compressed and near its limit.


Besides, if you read the write up, you will see that Tom sent his subs to Ricci and Jeff delivered his sub to Ricci. It is apparent that Ricci spent more time with the PSA subs so he took in-room CEA 2010... not so with JTR subs.

I didn't think that was what Tom was saying, I was asking him if my understanding of power compression and how many people push their subs to the limit and if clipping and thermal compression is taken into account.

I don't see where it says the PSA was tested in his room? That would pretty much invalidate the tests I would think. Since all the other subs were tested outside I thought? Can you link to it or cut and paste where he says it was CEA 2010 tested in a room?
ahblaza likes this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator
bscool is offline  
post #36408 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 10:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,289
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3626 Post(s)
Liked: 2061
I think whatever subs you buy, measurements can be sketchy due to room size and placements but also just mic/computer and user issues. the tests by ricci seem accurate to me. just want to add I posted measurements of my subs with rew at my mlp for some how loud can they go stuff...but if i moved my mic 7 feet to the left of my mlp i hit a positive spot in room where all spl was about 7db higher, i guess a sweet spot. i like this spot and go walk over to it sometimes...no chair here, its next to a adjutting corner into room if i spelled that right. but in this one spot i get killer bass with that chest pressurization and funny breathing...unfortuneatly, its just in a single spot and if i put mic there would give bad results to others imo...on the other hand the results i do give i always want to say 20k cuft is a lot of space, but i get tired of saying that too....

i think most of these id sub companies are putting out better stuff than the name brand BW/focal subs if ya know what i mean. I think we got it good.

btw, I havent seen pics of roofing yet from 7201 owners in living rooms??? just kidding ya all in good fun, but i want measurements.
schwaggs likes this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
post #36409 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 10:56 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,802
Mentioned: 313 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3652 Post(s)
Liked: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I don't see where it says the PSA was tested in his room? That would pretty much invalidate the tests I would think. Since all the other subs were tested outside I thought? Can you link to it or cut and paste where he says it was CEA 2010 tested in a room?
LOL... Ricci did not just test the PSA subs in room. He did all the CEA Max Passing SPL outdoors per protocol. However, he did In Room Max Passing if time allows on some subs, in this case PSA subs. That is why you see CEA Max Passing SPL AND In Room Max Passing for PSA subs.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=106


Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is offline  
post #36410 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 11:12 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,337
Mentioned: 194 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked: 9522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Good points. Something I was looking at more recently is the max long term output. So if someone/I looks at only cea 2010 max burst on the JTR 1400 and PSA XV30se it looks like the JTR 1400 has way more output. But then looking at max long term output they are much closer with the PSA having more output above 50hz. So if someone/I am pushing their/my system to the limits and running the subs on the edge or into distortion like some here do, then the JTR and XV30 will actually be very close in output with the PSA having more output above 50hz. At least that is my understanding.

I started looking at the max long term output more after reading a JL Audio paper on subs, amp, music and clipping and how most run their subs into clipping and then have power compression=reduced output.

Tom is my line of thinking that they would be closer in real world listening output for someone that really pushes the system to the limit or listens to clipped content or too many other factors? My understanding is that is what JL points out is it the music of today and it's low crest factor so it is much easier to play a clipped signal to the subs than music that has a higher crest factor from back in the 1980s. I use my system for mostly music that is why I think it applies to someone like me.

If someone wants to read about JLs take on it skip to page 19, the same thing would apply to home theater subwoofers also. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dio_081211.pdf



I believe Tom is simply saying that just because the V1801 and S3601 show similar cea2010 output in the 20-31hz does not mean the S3601 will sound equal. The S3601 is going to sound more powerful due to its increased upper bass sensitivity which will have an impact on the deeper bass range as well.
chucky7, jamiebosco and ahblaza like this.
basshead81 is offline  
post #36411 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 11:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
@chucky7 The 1400 is showing compressiong. Look at the graphs a little closer.


"The long term output compression measurements start out at the usual drive level which produces roughly 90dB at 50Hz."

"By the 110dB nominal sweep level the vent is starting to compress more significantly by about 4.5dB at 16Hz. Above the vent tuning the compression at this level is about 1dB or less which is good. The final 115dB nominal sweep produced significant output compression of about 7dB at 16Hz and a bit of distressed noise which was likely air noise from the vent. The vent would be moving huge volumes of air very quickly by this point. Output compression in the upper bandwidth reached about 2dB also a clear indication that the amplifier was not going to give much more with this type of signal so the system was not pushed any harder with this measurement type. During the loudest 115dB nominal sweep the Cap1400 produced 113 to 116dB over the 20-120Hz bandwidth and mustered up almost 109dB at 16Hz."

That is from databass 1400 test page http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...d=117&mset=129
ahblaza likes this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator
bscool is offline  
post #36412 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 11:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,289
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3626 Post(s)
Liked: 2061
does anyone have an opinion on what spl level the subs actually start working?

hard to explain, but if a user is saying has no tr at 100db, maybe just no tr at that level in your space...maybe in your space need 130db....or am i out there?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
post #36413 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 11:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I believe Tom is simply saying that just because the V1801 and S3601 show similar cea2010 output in the 20-31hz does not mean the S3601 will sound equal. The S3601 is going to sound more powerful due to its increased upper bass sensitivity which will have an impact on the deeper bass range as well.
I understand that. And that kind of ties into with what I am asking him or is related having to do with power compression and driver efficiency. They are all interrelated and you cannot just look at burst numbers.
Mike Butny and ahblaza like this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

Last edited by bscool; 08-28-2017 at 11:49 PM.
bscool is offline  
post #36414 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 11:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
LOL... Ricci did not just test the PSA subs in room. He did all the CEA Max Passing SPL outdoors per protocol. However, he did In Room Max Passing if time allows on some subs, in this case PSA subs. That is why you see CEA Max Passing SPL AND In Room Max Passing for PSA subs.



What does that have to do with CEA 2010 max output levels I was asking about?

I could have used the UM18 and XV30 as they show similar results with the UM18 having much more output in the bursts but in max output, they are closer with the XV30 having more output above 50hz.

This correlates to what I find in my listening room comparing the UM18 vs the XS30(yes I realize it is not the XV30 but above 50hz they will be similar in output) and that is that the XS30 has more output above 50hz than the UM18. So my real world listen seems to match up closer to the max long term output graphs than the max bursts.

Edit. I also realize Josh is using a much more powerful amp to test the UM18 than I use and that is another reason I used the JTR 1400 as a comparison as it is a "controlled sample" so to speak.



Attached Images
File Type: jpg Um18 vs XV30 burst.jpg (117.2 KB, 629 views)
File Type: jpg Um18 vs XV30 max long term.jpg (105.9 KB, 637 views)
ahblaza likes this.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

Last edited by bscool; 08-29-2017 at 12:11 AM.
bscool is offline  
post #36415 of 52754 Old 08-28-2017, 11:46 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mike Butny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Orland Park, Il
Posts: 2,167
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
We need to be careful about comparisons solely based on cea scoring. Not addressing you per se' Mike, you're just the post I clicked reply too..

It is important to understand what a "cea-2010" test represents and how limited it can be in trying to predict the way a subwoofer will "sound" in a given listening environment. I've tried to explain this a few times in the past without much success. It really would take much more time than I have today to do the topic---but here is an easy example.

A cea-2010 burst is a single frequency. For example, we burst 20hz for a fraction of a second. The amplifier isn't tasked by anything else---just full power sent to this one tone, for a fraction of a second. However in the real world movies are going to be a complex set of wave forms. There's not going to be individual tones except on a handful of "outlier" scenes that represent such a small cross-section of film bass they should be largely ignored. What IS very common will be bassy scenes that include loud/very loud effects <30hz in ADDITION to loud/very loud effects in the mid and upper bass.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume the only variable between two subs is the 30-100hz cea-2010 scoring. 15-30hz both subs score the same on cea-2010. But from 30-100hz one subwoofer is 6dB more powerful. We look at that and think "okay, both subs are going to sound the same on the deeper bass". But wait. Since we know there are (almost)always loud/very loud effects in the 30-100hz range we need to consider that the amplifier demands on one subwoofer will be significantly reduced for the majority of the operating bandwidth...perhaps only needing 1/4 to 1/2 the amplifier reserves! Thus, it will have more amp power available for the <30hz stuff. This can enable it to produce that bandwidth louder and cleaner with real world source material(movies in this context) even though a causal glance at the cea "scores" seem to indicate otherwise.

So not only does one product have much more mid/upper bass capabilities it will ALSO sound more powerful in the deeper bass as well.

I've seen so many puzzled comments in this context I've lost count. But HOW could sub xyz possibly sound as good as the acme sub? Acme is "superior"! There's something "suspicious" in denmark

Sometimes we need to step back and realize how complex all of this can be. You have the objective measurements and those, alone, can take years to get a solid handle on. Then trying to correlate those to subjective preference? I see guys spending a weekend on this and making statements with absolute certainty regarding acoustics and psycho acoustics. I'm going on 20 years of it and feel like I'm just beginning to understand many aspects of the process.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
No worries Tom, I know exactly what you are talking about. This topic reminds me when I would try to explain to my buddies who were shopping for new amps for their system. Ok, let's look at your speakers, whats the sensitivity? Do you have 4, 6, or 8-ohm speakers? I know the speaker says 8 ohms but at certain frequency's the ohms dip. Is this amps rating based on 20-20,000hz or at a certain frequency? Hows the power supply? What size caps? Does it have reserve when called upon? Whats the amps rating into 4 ohms?
ahblaza and bscool like this.

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.

Last edited by Mike Butny; 08-29-2017 at 12:00 AM.
Mike Butny is online now  
post #36416 of 52754 Old 08-29-2017, 06:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,836
Mentioned: 95 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3575 Post(s)
Liked: 11276
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
That is a super elegant and super cool looking solution. This reminds me of the professional rack-mount cooling solutions for IT systems. Very classy indeed!

Their page is permanently bookmarked on my browser now. Thanks man.
That's funny... I bookmarked it as well. Very classy, very functional and very cool looking addition.
Mike Butny likes this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is online now  
post #36417 of 52754 Old 08-29-2017, 10:20 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 13,337
Mentioned: 194 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Liked: 9522
Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I understand that. And that kind of ties into with what I am asking him or is related having to do with power compression and driver efficiency. They are all interrelated and you cannot just look at burst numbers.
Not really because what you are comparing is compression on the low end...not the same thing as what Tom was saying. Also long term power should be taken with a grain of salt comparing to real world use. All that test is basically for is testing the subs protection circuits @ 100% DUT. No real world content comes even remotely close to long term power...actually the most demanding movie content is 1/4 DUT. In the past Ricci mentioned using those numbers for his diy testing to get a "real world" representation of what a end user might see by powering a UM-18 with a Inuke amp instead of a power soft k10 like JR uses...other then that, there should be no correlation made.

Last edited by basshead81; 08-29-2017 at 10:27 AM.
basshead81 is offline  
post #36418 of 52754 Old 08-29-2017, 11:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 4,802
Mentioned: 313 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3652 Post(s)
Liked: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Not really because what you are comparing is compression on the low end...not the same thing as what Tom was saying. Also long term power should be taken with a grain of salt comparing to real world use. All that test is basically for is testing the subs protection circuits @ 100% DUT. No real world content comes even remotely close to long term power...actually the most demanding movie content is 1/4 DUT. In the past Ricci mentioned using those numbers for his diy testing to get a "real world" representation of what a end user might see by powering a UM-18 with a Inuke amp instead of a power soft k10 like JR uses...other then that, there should be no correlation made.
BTW, what does DUT stand for? Device Under Test? I have always wondered...

Speakers: L/C/R: JTR Noesis 212HT. Surrounds: Jamo C103, KEF Q100, Polk Audio RTiA3.
Subwoofer: JTR Captivator 4000ULF.
AVR: Denon AVR-X4400H. TV: Samsung UN75NU8000FXZA.

FS: Jamo C103, KEF Q100 and Polk RTiA3
chucky7 is offline  
post #36419 of 52754 Old 08-29-2017, 11:23 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Not really because what you are comparing is compression on the low end...not the same thing as what Tom was saying. Also long term power should be taken with a grain of salt comparing to real world use. All that test is basically for is testing the subs protection circuits @ 100% DUT. No real world content comes even remotely close to long term power...actually the most demanding movie content is 1/4 DUT. In the past Ricci mentioned using those numbers for his diy testing to get a "real world" representation of what a end user might see by powering a UM-18 with a Inuke amp instead of a power soft k10 like JR uses...other then that, there should be no correlation made.

For clarity I put my words in the quote area in blue.

I guess we see things differently and interpret things we read differently. I looked into it more myself and found more info and from what I understand what I stated earlier is correct.

The PSAs tested by data-bass shows they have a minimal loss at Max Long Term Output, which matters if you are someone that pushes your system hard. It will not matter to you if you have a bunch of subs(more headroom) and/or run at a lower level so that you are not running into power compression. I would say the higher efficiency drivers that PSA uses is a big part in this as if you compare different drivers on data-bass the ones that suffer less loss in the Max Long Term Output are higher efficiency drivers from what I am seeing. For example, compare the JTR 1400 to the JTR 118 and look at Max Long Term Output the 118 has more output from around 45hz and the frequencies below that are within 4-5dB where in the Max Burst the 1400 shows it being ahead by 6dB+ most of the FR until around 60hz. I would guess the V1801 is closer in Max LTO to the 118 more so than the 1400.

This may explain why some people are finding the PSA v1801 is closer than most thought it would be in real world listening comparisons to the JTR1400. The Max Long Term Output is probably closer I am guessing even though Max Bursts wouldn't show that and that is what most people focus on mistakenly. Josh compared the Max Burst numbers to car audio SPL numbers I didn't quote him but you can find data-bass if you want.

Like I mentioned in an above post this matches my experience with different subs I have used in my room from the PSA XS30, Submersive, UM18 and some pro Audio drivers which most are listed in my signature(not that this is a large sample). I do listen to higher volumes with the bass frequencies right around reference on average and sometimes higher. The primary use of my system is for listening to music.

Here is what I found from further reading. I just took snippets but you click on the links I provided to read the rest of the conversation.

From Josh

"For practical output comparisons of systems I prefer to use the maximum long term output sweep myself. These are much more representative of what can be actually realized with an appropriate "safe" amplifier capability."

Sounds like Josh doesn't agree with you here or can you explain?

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...s#comment-8911

"Basically stated this is the maximum level attainable in a long term manner, at which point the subwoofer’s behavior in some part of the frequency range has become a limiting factor. The higher the maximum output attainable the better the dynamic tracking of the subwoofer and the more suitable it will be for high output duties, or large, open spaces."

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...ubwoofer-tests

From diy speaker guy and data-bass

"It looks like you completely missed the part about power compression." https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post42272713

"But for long term max spl it's power compression that we are more concerned about" https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post42272785


The CEA testing is useful for certain things but it won't give any clue about long term max spl. The CEA burst is incredibly short. Even at 10 hz it's well under 1 second long so it won't give any information about power compression or the ability of the driver to handle that amount of power long term.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQY3swM4tA

If you listen to music similar to the track I posted, the safe power level is very low. Much lower than data-bass test levels"


Sounds more like Max Long Term Output to me that you say no one hits. EMD type and "bass-head" music will be MUCH more demanding.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post42273913

"The long term output compression test is meant to simulate the effects of high duty cycle use on the system but in a much more rapid manner. The long duration sine wave sweeps at the highest power levels are brutal on the systems and are meant to simulate many hours of playback of typical material with a MUCH lower duty cycle.Sine waves are 100% duty cycle so the voice coil gets heated relentlessly and in fact this test type kills more drivers than any other. Heavily compressed electronic music is only 25% duty cycle at mostand typical music is far less than that so the average power is far less than that of the test signals used here.Therefore the voice coil and amplifier have some "downtime" to recharge and cool off a bit. Don't think of this measurement as output that can be sustained indefinitely...Think of it as a survival point...The sine wave test signals may generate an average power of 1500w from the amplifier into a system. Actual music or movie content that produces peak outputs of the same SPL levels might require the same amount of peak power but the average power seen over the same time period is more likely to be 200 watts than anywhere near the 1500 of the sine wave.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQY3swM4tA Edit added link again for context to the quote below

In other words, stuff like most rock music is fine at the Max Long Term Spl level reported by data-bass, but if you try to play something like this on repeat at that level it's going to be a costly event UNLESS you have an impedance peak at the bassline frequency."

Again this does NOT sound like Burst is what we should look at. It sounds to me more like we should be looking at Long Term Output if you want to listen to stuff even like rock music(at high levels) which most would not consider taxing.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post42273913

"All the drivers tested at data-bass have Long Term Output Compression Magnitude information, this shows how much total compression was measured in that box size at that power level. This is very important info, and it seems some people might not be aware that these losses"

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post42273913


Electrodynamic

"Posts like this will go un-noticed or get buried and forgotten. Josh took the time to explain, in detail, the differences yet the latter will never be looked at or taken as true information on other forums"

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...s#comment-8911

I realize that Max Long Term Output is only a part of it but I believe it tells us more than the Burst numbers do for real world use and that was my point from the start.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator

Last edited by bscool; 08-29-2017 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Added links and more info
bscool is offline  
post #36420 of 52754 Old 08-29-2017, 11:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parkview, IA
Posts: 3,188
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1274 Post(s)
Liked: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
That's funny... I bookmarked it as well. Very classy, very functional and very cool looking addition.
and Hopinater , if fits perfectly on top of the X4200. I purchased one a while back, because my X4200 got pretty warm after a movie. The thing is pretty silent as well, only time I hear the fans is when I stop or pause a movie. Never would hear it sitting right next to a MTM-210C.
Mike Butny and Hopinater like this.
lizrussspike is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
chuffitychuffchuff , chuffmaster , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , hr chuff'n'stuff , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , psa , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , s3000i , s7201 , tv36 , v1500 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off