Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1215 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36421 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 11:16 AM
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Well idk about everyone else, but I'm learning a lot today haha.
@bscool my head is spinning from reading that discussion you linked between Ricci and others. I'll definitely be reading that again to understand it better, thanks for sharing!


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post #36422 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
BTW, what does DUT stand for? Device Under Test? I have always wondered...
Correct. I always think driver under testing " SETTINGS ON DEVICE UNDER TEST -I do CEA-2010 measurements with the device under test set to full volume."http://www.brentbutterworth.com/cea-...nt-manual.html
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post #36423 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Not really because what you are comparing is compression on the low end...not the same thing as what Tom was saying. Also long term power should be taken with a grain of salt comparing to real world use. All that test is basically for is testing the subs protection circuits @ 100% DUT. No real world content comes even remotely close to long term power...actually the most demanding movie content is 1/4 DUT. In the past Ricci mentioned using those numbers for his diy testing to get a "real world" representation of what a end user might see by powering a UM-18 with a Inuke amp instead of a power soft k10 like JR uses...other then that, there should be no correlation made.
Josh from Data-bass


"The long term output compression test is meant to simulate the effects of high duty cycle use on the system but in a much more rapid manner. The long duration sine wave sweeps at the highest power levels are brutal on the systems and are meant to simulate many hours of playback of typical material with a MUCH lower duty cycle" http://www.data-bass.com/know-how

I read this to say even though it uses sine wave this is done for the reason of brevity as testers do not want to sit there for an hour blasting the sub with real music content to measure its Long Term Output. It has nothing to do with playing sine waves in actual content.

Also, it would be helpful if you can quote with a link what Josh Ricci said so we can all read the whole context as others like myself may interpret it differently. I could say Ricci said "basshead81 is wrong and bscool is correct" but without a quote for context, it doesn't have much validity.
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post #36424 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 03:47 PM
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While you guys discuss the finer points of subwoofer response I'm thoroughly enjoying the LFE in my copy of John Wick chapter 2 which arrived today. I'll be back to see what you've figured out later.
Kelly
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post #36425 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 04:50 PM
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I have a slight hum on my subwoofer when nothing is playing.

I tried changing wires and isolating the connection to the sub, but its a no go.

The only thing i can think of are line-level ground loop isolators. Is there any drawback to using one? Can anyone recommend one that actually works?
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post #36426 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeard View Post
I have a slight hum on my subwoofer when nothing is playing.

I tried changing wires and isolating the connection to the sub, but its a no go.

The only thing i can think of are line-level ground loop isolators. Is there any drawback to using one? Can anyone recommend one that actually works?
Is the hum there when you have nothing plugged into its inputs?
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post #36427 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeard View Post
I have a slight hum on my subwoofer when nothing is playing.

I tried changing wires and isolating the connection to the sub, but its a no go.

The only thing i can think of are line-level ground loop isolators. Is there any drawback to using one? Can anyone recommend one that actually works?
I'll share what I just recently had a problem with.

After my 3601 came, I ordered a wireless kit and started using it. Well, everything seemed ok until it was quiet and I was right next to the sub. I could hear that hum too. Then I connected the RCA cable again to see if it was the wireless receiver causing the sound. As soon as I connected the RCA to the wireless receiver, the hum almost vanished. Hooked it back to the cheap cables that came with the wireless, hum came back.

I guess in my case the hum was being caused by using the cheap cable that came with it instead of the higher quality one I was using before when it was connected to the AVR. So now, I have it wireless still, but I'm using that 25 foot cable to connect the wireless receiver to the sub. All of 3 feet connected with 25' cable .

Just food for thought

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post #36428 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadwar View Post
While you guys discuss the finer points of subwoofer response I'm thoroughly enjoying the LFE in my copy of John Wick chapter 2 which arrived today. I'll be back to see what you've figured out later.
Kelly
I'm done discussing...I am not going to spend a hour searching for info to cite, then go on a half page rant to prove my case. he makes a valid point, but I still do not think it correlates with what Tom was saying. Either way I will just say BScool is right and Basshead81 is wrong because I really don't give a ****!! So when you get back there will be nothing to see...enjoy your flick!
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post #36429 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 08:08 PM
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Hi all,

No time(or energy) to add to the discussions tonight. But I wanted to say that even though the long term vs. short term isn't exactly what I was referring to it is related in the sense that is adds (yet)another objective metric that could(should?) be considered when evaluating how a product will sound. I'll probably regret this but we shouldn't ignore the sound quality metrics either---waterfall, spectrogram, impulse, GD, etc. The rub so-to-speak is knowing what those measurements MAY be influencing with regards to correlations to audibility in a typical room(or even a not so typical room). It really can be fascinating when you see the dots connect in a way you didn't initially expect.

Anyway,it's a topic that should be discussed imo and I appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in. It's past 11 here and I'm toast. But I'll try to find time tomorrow to jump in..

Tom V.
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post #36430 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Is the hum there when you have nothing plugged into its inputs?
No, the hum is only there when the sub out of my kef ls50w is connected to the sub.

If it use the sub out from my pc soundcard, there is no hum.
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post #36431 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeard View Post
No, the hum is only there when the sub out of my kef ls50w is connected to the sub.

If it use the sub out from my pc soundcard, there is no hum.
Sounds like a ground loop problem. Are the sub and the speakers plugged into the same wall outlet? That's the first thing to try.

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post #36432 of 52376 Old 08-29-2017, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
Sounds like a ground loop problem. Are the sub and the speakers plugged into the same wall outlet? That's the first thing to try.
Yes, they are plugged into the same outlet.
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post #36433 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 04:54 AM
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This is from a discussion going on over in the PSA speaker thread but since it's dealing with subwoofers I brought it over here because it may be helpful to some guys who are considering adding a 2nd sub to their system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFist View Post
Hahaha! I hear ya. Because I love a challenge and I like disciplining myself, it was put to me to resist buying another one and this I shall do. Besides, I would definitely need to upgrade my existing speakers if I got another PSA V1500 or V1801 or more because the LFE would then greatly overpower and drown them out.

Another determining factor for me that I just realized by playing a movie at my -14dB listening level one night and going out in my backyard...

I have 3 full windowed sliding doors that face the backyard and A LOT of bass is getting through them even though they are closed shut. I am positive there will be someone who notices this sound with yet another mind-warping sub added to the mix and the last thing I want to do is irritate my neighbors in any way. But it was a fun ride, guys!
Those are definitely good reasons to resist adding a 2nd PSA sub right now. But allow me to add a couple of reasons why it might be good to do.

1. Usually adding a 2nd sub is more about smoothing out the bass at the MLP and other LPs than it is getting more output. Smoothing is the process of getting rid of peaks and valleys in the bass response. If you sit in a valley than the bass will be anemic in that particular frequency range. If you sit in a null than you will get no bass at at those frequencies. Having two subs can get rid of those pesky issues and two similar subs makes it even easier to achieve this.

2. The result of this is often an improvement in the over all sound quality of the bass in your room. I found the bass to be much fuller and more enveloping with two high quality subs.

3. Of course you will also have greater output abilities by adding a 2nd sub, it just may not be your main goal. But because the actual output is controlled with things like trim settings and the volume control (which we can adjust), adding a 2nd sub will not necessarily result in you irritating your neighbors... unless you want it to... which you don't.

4. With greater output there will be an increase of headroom which means neither sub is working as hard to produce the output you desire. This means you probably won't have to worry about the subs approaching their limits during those hard hitting low frequency effects that we all love so much.

5. You don't need to worry about your speakers being over powered because you have control over the trim level of your subs, so unless you are deliberately turning up your trim (running your subs hot and way above the level set by the room calibration software of your AVR) then everything should still be balanced.

Anyway, there are good reasons NOT to add a 2nd sub right now and good reasons TO add a 2nd sub right now.
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post #36434 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 12:43 PM
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I officially joined the PSA club. Just purchased one of the V1801 B stock subs. Very excited

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post #36435 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 12:43 PM
 
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Heard something interesting last night while playing Youtube clips off my phone (still no TV up ) and played the grenade scene from WWZ and laying on the floor , 1 1801 was about 4-5 to my right , the other was about 10' diagonal to my right partially blocked by a fireplace(They are still just thrown around , uncalibrated)...My room is around 30x30 , but 12x30 is where I have all the stuff , its not sealed off but has a fireplace and kitchen island down the way...Its tucked in there a bit...Anyway , the grenade went off and and there was a wave that started at the front , seemed to hit the back wall and return to the front...It was pretty cool.. not sure if my previous room was too small to allow that to happen or what , but it was almost like you could see the percussion go thru the room and return...Interesting to see what happens when I really corner load those things or I get the 36's
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post #36436 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 01:08 PM
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Hi guys,

I'm going to do another fantasy football league this year. 10 teams, standard rules. We have 3 spots filled right now including me. So 7 open.

Draft will be this Sunday either at 8 or 9pm(Eastern). Please, don'ts request a spot if you aren't 100% sure you could be present for the draft. Also, please be sure you can spend the needed 3 minutes(?) each weekend updating your roster as well.

Free stuff for 1st/2nd/3rd place. TBA.

Please email [email protected] if you want in. And again, ONLY if you are 100% going to be there for the draft and will monitor your team through the season. Thanks!

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post #36437 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 01:10 PM
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Holy cow you guys are fast over there Tom. Ordered and I already got the shipped email less than 20 minutes later. That's nuts.

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post #36438 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 01:11 PM
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Holy cow you guys are fast over there Tom. Ordered and I already got the shipped email less than 20 minutes later. That's nuts.


That's customer service at its best! Super responsive and lightning delivery.


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post #36439 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi all,

No time(or energy) to add to the discussions tonight. But I wanted to say that even though the long term vs. short term isn't exactly what I was referring to it is related in the sense that is adds (yet)another objective metric that could(should?) be considered when evaluating how a product will sound. I'll probably regret this but we shouldn't ignore the sound quality metrics either---waterfall, spectrogram, impulse, GD, etc. The rub so-to-speak is knowing what those measurements MAY be influencing with regards to correlations to audibility in a typical room(or even a not so typical room). It really can be fascinating when you see the dots connect in a way you didn't initially expect.

Anyway,it's a topic that should be discussed imo and I appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in. It's past 11 here and I'm toast. But I'll try to find time tomorrow to jump in..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom, I am did not think that you were referring to long term vs short. I was asking for your thoughts on long term output, it appears to a better metric than looking at burst for those like me that really push their subs.

And I agree it is only one metric and there are many others we haven't discussed. It is my opinion after looking into it more that the long term outputs are a better metric for my use to look at than bursts numbers that I had focused on in the past.

It was after reading that JL Audio paper I mentioned and linked that I started looking into it more as they talk about compression that happens for many people that push subs hard.

And I looked into it more and posted links that I found so that other might find them of use or interest and they can decide for themselves what they think. I like to learn and have been into audio for close to 27 years starting out back in the early 90s building my own systems in my cars and I still love audio to this day. There is a lot more information out there today than when I started. I remember when I started most people just built an enclosure for their subs going by what the manufacturer recommended as there was not the software out there to model them and if there was I did not know about it or it was prohibitively expensive. The first time I played with any modeling software was back in the late 1990s early 2000s and it was a fascinating experience seeing how everything interacts and affects everything else. And I realize that modeling simulations are not 100% accurate but much better than nothing.

I also posted the info so if I am understanding it incorrectly someone could point it out so I can learn something or understand it so that I or we can all learn more and can make better choices and decisions in the audio world.
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post #36440 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 04:06 PM
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.... . Also, please be sure you can spend the needed 3 minutes(?) each weekend updating your roster as well. ....
LOL... literally.

Every year we seem to have a few guys in our league that can't manage to update their lineup through the bye weeks and for injuries.

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post #36441 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 04:51 PM
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LOL... literally.

Every year we seem to have a few guys in our league that can't manage to update their lineup through the bye weeks and for injuries.
*sigh* I feel I may be the only (soon-to-be) PSA owner who doesn't know a lick (or give two sheets) about football. Or other sports for that matter. I grew up a theater kid, both on- and backstage, and work in and around art. One of my old managers was once giving me the rundown on his FF lineup, and I just stood there acting interested. The best reponse I could come up with was "Yay, sports!"
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post #36442 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 04:56 PM
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I officially joined the PSA club. Just purchased one of the V1801 B stock subs. Very excited
I'm sure you got one of mine, you got a brand new sub my friend, it's not even broken in, used maybe 10 hours, enjoy.........
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post #36443 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 05:13 PM
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Okay today I received my Buttkicker rubber pads so it was time to make a plywood base to decouple my couch and concrete floor with the goal of seeing if this provides a greater tactile response or not. The nice part about this is it cost a grand total of $73 for all materials involved (and it could be done cheaper depending on what you use for pads) and it took less than an hour to make. I've included a few photos just to provide some reference. I'll report back with my impressions.

EDIT... Quick note, that black box under the couch is not a tactile transducer, it's just the electrical box for the couch's recliner.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1185.JPG (80.9 KB, 160 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1186.JPG (58.9 KB, 136 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1187.JPG (49.9 KB, 136 views)

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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

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post #36444 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaurhead View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwaggs View Post
LOL... literally.

Every year we seem to have a few guys in our league that can't manage to update their lineup through the bye weeks and for injuries.
*sigh* I feel I may be the only (soon-to-be) PSA owner who doesn't know a lick (or give two sheets) about football. Or other sports for that matter. I grew up a theater kid, both on- and backstage, and work in and around art. One of my old managers was once giving me the rundown on his FF lineup, and I just stood there acting interested. The best reponse I could come up with was "Yay, sports!"
You're not alone. I played sports throughout school but don't watch or follow any. I don't mind watching the super bowl or a good fight, but very rarely. I usually have to ask who's playing every year. I'm the movie/music guy at home. TV for me is usually educational or outdoors related.
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post #36445 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 06:47 PM
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Okay today I received my Buttkicker rubber pads so it was time to make a plywood base to decouple my couch and concrete floor with the goal of seeing if this provides a greater tactile response or not. The nice part about this is it cost a grand total of $73 for all materials involved (and it could be done cheaper depending on what you use for pads) and it took less than an hour to make. I've included a few photos just to provide some reference. I'll report back with my impressions.

EDIT... Quick note, that black box under the couch is not a tactile transducer, it's just the electrical box for the couch's recliner.
I am glad these plywood platforms are working for you guys. At the same time I "hate" you. I have around $800 of rubber flooring sitting in my garage for my basement project that I planned on using and then putting OSB subflooring over it as that was recommended by most to get the best tactile feel similar to a suspended floor on concrete. Now after seeing how great it sounds like even a simple piece of plywood works I'm like [email protected]?! am I going to do with $800 of rubber flooring that I can maybe sell for a $100 lol.

I won't be finishing my basement anytime soon but I am thinking of skipping the rubber with plywood over it as that will be a lot more work and $$$. Sounds like a carpeted piece of plywood will help a lot and then near field subs I think I will be pretty close to what I am getting now on a suspended floor.

I just looked at Soundproofing Companies site and they also show it without wood over the rubber. Maybe I'll just do that since it will help some with insulating the cold concrete floor from my feet in the winter and I won't end up giving the rubber flooring away. And just put a piece of carpeted plywood under my MLP verse cover a 23.5' x 18' room with it.https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...lution-1.3.jpg

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post #36446 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 08:07 PM
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I officially joined the PSA club. Just purchased one of the V1801 B stock subs. Very excited
I'm sure you got one of mine, you got a brand new sub my friend, it's not even broken in, used maybe 10 hours, enjoy.........
Yeah I might have. Tom didn't state exactly which one he shipped. He said he had about 4-5 or something like that. Very excited to hear and feel this thing.
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post #36447 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Okay today I received my Buttkicker rubber pads so it was time to make a plywood base to decouple my couch and concrete floor with the goal of seeing if this provides a greater tactile response or not. The nice part about this is it cost a grand total of $73 for all materials involved (and it could be done cheaper depending on what you use for pads) and it took less than an hour to make. I've included a few photos just to provide some reference. I'll report back with my impressions.

EDIT... Quick note, that black box under the couch is not a tactile transducer, it's just the electrical box for the couch's recliner.
I kinda had an idea as to how this project would come together based on what all you guys have been saying, but now that I see pictures of one done, I can't believe how simple it is! Has anyone confirmed that putting carpet/rug over the platform negatively or positively impacts TR? I have a thick, almost shag-like 5x7' rug under my loveseat presently that would need to go over the plywood should I decide to build one...

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post #36448 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 08:47 PM
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I kinda had an idea as to how this project would come together based on what all you guys have been saying, but now that I see pictures of one done, I can't believe how simple it is! Has anyone confirmed that putting carpet/rug over the platform negatively or positively impacts TR? I have a thick, almost shag-like 5x7' rug under my loveseat presently that would need to go over the plywood should I decide to build one...
I think it would have little effect. My reasoning is my suspended floor has carpet and padding over it yet I still get a lot of tactile feel. So I don't see why a miniature version of a suspended floor that these guys are building would be much different. But my logic may be flawed

I also noticed when I got a Crowson and put the little rubber isolators all around the bottom of my chair even with the Crowson off it feels like it lets chair move easier so I feel the tactile sensation easier. Could be in my head/subjective though as I haven't objectively measured it with a Vibsensor https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...st-thread.html like some people use to measure it. I have a Windows phone so I can't use the app or I would so I could take measurements. Windows has their own version but I haven't messed with it much since it is so different that the data doesn't correlate to the Vibsensor data.

Have any of you guys used the Vibsensor to test before and after on your platforms/riser? That way you could see also if doing something helped or not and at what frequency. I know getting pretty nerdy Just throw a near-field 15" or 18" at it and takes care of most of it

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post #36449 of 52376 Old 08-30-2017, 11:06 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Thanks for sharing @Hopinater ! I'll have to tackle this project after I build my volt 6's

On an unrelated note, I've been feeling entirely inadequate with my subs lately. All the 18" subs flying around lately and all I have are these "measly" 15 inchers haha.

Well, I decided to watch Interstellar the other night and OMG, I forgot how powerful the bass in that movie can be. My dual xv15se's absolutely PUNISHED my room during some of those scenes, and showed no signs of struggle while doing it. Just loud, clean, and deep bass - it was so much fun! Guess I just needed to watch something with some real bass to remind me of what I already have in my theater.

Anyway, just wanted to put in the good word for PSA's smaller offerings. Even my older models still bring the goods on movie night!


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post #36450 of 52376 Old 08-31-2017, 05:16 AM
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Thanks for sharing @Hopinater ! I'll have to tackle this project after I build my volt 6's

On an unrelated note, I've been feeling entirely inadequate with my subs lately. All the 18" subs flying around lately and all I have are these "measly" 15 inchers haha.

Well, I decided to watch Interstellar the other night and OMG, I forgot how powerful the bass in that movie can be. My dual xv15se's absolutely PUNISHED my room during some of those scenes, and showed no signs of struggle while doing it. Just loud, clean, and deep bass - it was so much fun! Guess I just needed to watch something with some real bass to remind me of what I already have in my theater.

Anyway, just wanted to put in the good word for PSA's smaller offerings. Even my older models still bring the goods on movie night!


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"smaller offerings"

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