Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1269 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #38041 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Thanks, Darrell!
I would be happy to consider nearfield placement, but it's definitely no go this time due to WAF. The only acceptable placement is at the front wall under the screen. The total width of front wall available for sub placement is about 14 feet, so there is some room for moving left/right and try to to get rid of some peaks and nulls.

Crowson is a great idea, and I really like it, given it will allow to get better bass experience without annoying neighbours with high SPL. Would sealed or vented be better here?

Think @Hopinater has something to add here as well, as he recently enjoyed the Crowson ride
Anything you can do to get your subs closer to your seat will help get more dBs for you and less for your neighbors. My subs are on midway on the side walls flanking my main seats and double as end tables. You can also use a larger sub as a coffee table in front of your sofa if that's your main seating position. If it helps you can cover them with some kind of tablecloth to help with WAF. In any case unless you're planning on renting a house in the near future, I wouldn't buy expensive subs and then worry about wasting most of their potential depending on your neighbors' tolerance level.

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post #38042 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
I am in an open floor plan , maybe about double your size or so and recently went from 2 V1801's to 2 S3601's and completely enjoying it! The V18's are great and will do you well , but I have come to enjoy the eardrum popping like pressure the S36's provide. Are you looking to get duals??
Yeah, sure, the end goal is dual, though S36s won't fit due to depth limitation. Going sealed, the short list is S1801 or S3000i. If I didn't screwed up the math, my reading of FR and CEA says that with 0-room gain dual S3000i can deliver ca. 100db at 10 feet distance (+6db for duals and -9-10db for 10ft RMS) around 10hz, which is OK for my listening levels and dual S1801s can deliver around 90db at the same distance.
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post #38043 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
In any case unless you're planning on renting a house in the near future, I wouldn't buy expensive subs and then worry about wasting most of their potential depending on your neighbors' tolerance level.
That's a fair point May be lower dB plus Crowsons is the only way to go.
Given that I'm not targeting reference levels, but more in the range of 80-90db max, is there any drawback in going seals to get lower extension and support them with Crowsons?
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post #38044 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
That's a fair point May be lower dB plus Crowsons is the only way to go.
Given that I'm not targeting reference levels, but more in the range of 80-90db max, is there any drawback in going seals to get lower extension and support them with Crowsons?
To avoid confusion, saying 80-90db includes 20db headroom for dynamic range, so -15-25db to reference 105db for LFE (headroom included)

Last edited by OKGeek; 11-15-2017 at 09:36 AM.
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post #38045 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
That's a fair point May be lower dB plus Crowsons is the only way to go.
Given that I'm not targeting reference levels, but more in the range of 80-90db max, is there any drawback in going seals to get lower extension and support them with Crowsons?
Yes, Crowsons would definitely help assuming there are no neighbors below you. Also the lower the frequency, the more sound will penetrate to other apartments. If possible you may want to limit your sub's extension (ie, need less expensive sub) and let the Crowsons take over on the lower frequencies. This is definitely a compromise, but may be necessary given your situation.

Unfortunately this is not the greatest hobby for apartment dwellers unless you have cooperative neighbors, but even that can change at any time. I live in a house, but I still have restrictions - not so much from my wife, but we have an older Golden Retriever that goes nuts whenever there's thunder or too much ULF from the HT.

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post #38046 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
can you push higher? instead of 108db of green graph can you get to 115db or 120db? my attached graph is messed up, but I tried to go high...
You have to go into the UMIK barrel and pull the PCB out and adjust the dip switches on the board to lower the gain from 18dB to either 12 or 6dB so you can measure higher SPL without the mic clipping. It's explained here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-umik-1-a.html
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post #38047 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Have you gotten any time to really give a listen to the S36's? Been curious to your thoughts after having the 7201! Im enjoying mine so far , even though I keep eyeing that S3000I in the outlet! Not that I need it , BUUUTTTT you know how that goes!
Sorry no I haven't had time nor the energy to really get this all dialed in, I will as soon as I can. Thanks for the interest.
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post #38048 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Have you gotten any time to really give a listen to the S36's? Been curious to your thoughts after having the 7201! Im enjoying mine so far , even though I keep eyeing that S3000I in the outlet! Not that I need it , BUUUTTTT you know how that goes!
As a Public Service Announcement (PSA, ha) the outlet S3000i is currently sitting in my family room. Rocks for music right now, but I am slightly underwhelmed for movies. I haven't spent much time dialing it in, but my SVS PC Ultra (12) actually gives a bit more punch in some scenes. I am guessing it is because the frequency of the content matches the port tune (20 Hz) I am running. I am going to spend some more time dialing it in this weekend and demoing more content to see if I can get the S3000i to hit a bit harder on the LF movie content. For what is worth, I have a very open room that connects directly to a living room and kitchen/dinette without any doors.

BTW, does anyone have experience with Audyssey Multeq xt32 setting the sub distance long? For the SVS it was pretty close to accurate, but with the PSA it is setting it to 14.8 ft and the tape measure says 9 ft. I manually changed to the 9 ft, but wondering if it was doing 14.8 ft due to phasing or something?
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post #38049 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by N8G View Post

BTW, does anyone have experience with Audyssey Multeq xt32 setting the sub distance long? For the SVS it was pretty close to accurate, but with the PSA it is setting it to 14.8 ft and the tape measure says 9 ft. I manually changed to the 9 ft, but wondering if it was doing 14.8 ft due to phasing or something?
The DSP circuitry in the sub amp adds some delay. That is the extra distance you are seeing with Audyssey. We all see it.
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post #38050 of 50382 Old 11-15-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by N8G View Post
As a Public Service Announcement (PSA, ha) the outlet S3000i is currently sitting in my family room. Rocks for music right now, but I am slightly underwhelmed for movies. I haven't spent much time dialing it in, but my SVS PC Ultra (12) actually gives a bit more punch in some scenes. I am guessing it is because the frequency of the content matches the port tune (20 Hz) I am running. I am going to spend some more time dialing it in this weekend and demoing more content to see if I can get the S3000i to hit a bit harder on the LF movie content. For what is worth, I have a very open room that connects directly to a living room and kitchen/dinette without any doors.

BTW, does anyone have experience with Audyssey Multeq xt32 setting the sub distance long? For the SVS it was pretty close to accurate, but with the PSA it is setting it to 14.8 ft and the tape measure says 9 ft. I manually changed to the 9 ft, but wondering if it was doing 14.8 ft due to phasing or something?
Hi,

As noted in the previous post, Audyssey isn't measuring the physical distance to the sub. It is measuring the arrival time of the sound and timing it to coincide with the sound arriving from the other speakers. Circuitry in the subwoofer's amp adds delay to the sound, so Audyssey set's a longer distance so that it will speed up the arrival time of the sound. You should set it back to where Audyssey put it.

Being used to a ported sub, you may need some time to get used to the slightly different sound/feel of a sealed sub. You should be getting a lot more mid-bass with the S3000i, though. Although I am sure that you got a very good deal on the outlet sub, it might have been tempting to try something like a V1801, since you are already accustomed to the sound and feel of a ported sub.

Regards,
Mike

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post #38051 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 04:57 AM
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Thought I would share something from Ed Mullen on another thread about running subs hot

Can you damage a sub if you turn it up?

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post #38052 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

As noted in the previous post, Audyssey isn't measuring the physical distance to the sub. It is measuring the arrival time of the sound and timing it to coincide with the sound arriving from the other speakers. Circuitry in the subwoofer's amp adds delay to the sound, so Audyssey set's a longer distance so that it will speed up the arrival time of the sound. You should set it back to where Audyssey put it.

Being used to a ported sub, you may need some time to get used to the slightly different sound/feel of a sealed sub. You should be getting a lot more mid-bass with the S3000i, though. Although I am sure that you got a very good deal on the outlet sub, it might have been tempting to try something like a V1801, since you are already accustomed to the sound and feel of a ported sub.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Climber07 and Mike. I thought it might be something like that so I am glad to get a confirmation and set it back.

I am pretty constrained on my options for sub choices due to WAF. The S3000i is about as big as I can go and ideally should be veneered to look like furniture. I measured the levels manually last night and it seems Audyssey is setting the sub trim about 2-3 db's down from what I am measuring on my Radioshack SPL meter (with the 3db correction factor accounted for). Pushing the trim up those 2 or 3 db's really did help when checking it out on a few scenes last night.
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post #38053 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I wouldn't buy the larger more powerful expensive subs and then worry about wasting most of their potential depending on your neighbors' tolerance level.
I edited your post because I think this brings up an important point.

I think the accuracy of your statement depends on what you mean by expensive. If you mean expensive being something like the difference between a 15S verses a S3000i then I would agree with you. He won't need to spend the extra on the larger sub because he won't be able to take advantage of it's greater output.

But if by "expensive sub" you mean a quality ID sub verses a cheaper sub (like say a Polk) then I have to strongly disagree with you. There is a lot more to a quality sub than it's output capabilities (sadly that's the very problem with AVS, too many people focusing on one metric when it comes to sub... output).

A good sub like the ones produced by PSA will have have been designed and engineered with a focus on sound quality as well as other things besides just output. It's designed with quality components and manufactured and assembled with care and then tested before being shipped. Mass produced cheaper subs are not nearly as concerned with these things. In short, you get what you pay for.

IMO it's well worth buying a quality subwoofer whether you can play it loud or not. Output limitations just change WHICH quality sub you should choose, just as space restraints do.

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Last edited by Hopinater; 11-16-2017 at 10:24 AM.
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post #38054 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I edited your post because I think this brings up an important point.

I think the accuracy of your statement depends on what you mean by expensive. If you mean expensive being something like the difference between a 15S verses a S3000i then I would agree with you. He won't need to spend the extra on the larger sub because he won't be able to take advantage of it's greater output.

But if by "expensive sub" you mean a quality ID sub verses a cheaper sub (like say a Polk) then I have to strongly disagree with you. There is a lot more to a quality sub than it's output capabilities (sadly that's the very problem with AVS, too many people focusing on one metric when it comes to sub... output).

A good sub like the ones produced by PSA will have have been designed and engineered with a focus on sound quality as well as other things besides just output. It's designed with quality components and manufactured and assembled with care and then tested before being shipped. Mass produced cheaper subs are not nearly as concerned with these things. In short, you get what you pay for.

IMO it's well worth buying a quality subwoofer whether you can play it loud or not. Output limitations just change WHICH sub you should choose, just as space restraints do.
Thanks for clarifying. I meant the former, ie, paying for extra dBs/extension if you won't be able to enjoy them most of the time. Of coarse 'most of the time' also means different things to different people - it could mean once a week, month, or never in some cases. It was just a value judgement for his circumstance that I wanted to make sure he was considering.
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post #38055 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I edited your post because I think this brings up an important point.

I think the accuracy of your statement depends on what you mean by expensive. If you mean expensive being something like the difference between a 15S verses a S3000i then I would agree with you. He won't need to spend the extra on the larger sub because he won't be able to take advantage of it's greater output.

But if by "expensive sub" you mean a quality ID sub verses a cheaper sub (like say a Polk) then I have to strongly disagree with you. There is a lot more to a quality sub than it's output capabilities (sadly that's the very problem with AVS, too many people focusing on one metric when it comes to sub... output).

A good sub like the ones produced by PSA will have have been designed and engineered with a focus on sound quality as well as other things besides just output. It's designed with quality components and manufactured and assembled with care and then tested before being shipped. Mass produced cheaper subs are not nearly as concerned with these things. In short, you get what you pay for.

IMO it's well worth buying a quality subwoofer whether you can play it loud or not. Output limitations just change WHICH sub you should choose, just as space restraints do.
Thanks, @Hopinater . That's actually the foundation of why I consider sealed as well instead of simply chasing higher output level of ported in the port tune region.
Am I right in assumption, that going sealed with dual (s1500, s1801 or s3000i) I can get lower extension and other benefits of sealed at -20db to reference even if room gain contributes little to nothing due to room size?

Last edited by OKGeek; 11-16-2017 at 09:39 AM.
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post #38056 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 09:47 AM
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Am I right in assumption, that going sealed with dual (s1500, s1801 or s3000i) I can get lower extension and other benefits of sealed at -20db to reference even if room gain contributes little to nothing due to room size?
Only if you get more firepower. If your room is large enough that it doesn't contribute much gain, then you won't take advantage of lower extension without multiple sealed subs. I would think dual S3601's would be the minimum configuration in a large room with little gain.

In other words, extension doesn't matter if you don't have enough output.

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post #38057 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 10:28 AM
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That will happen i promise but first i have to unpack my new emotiva XMC-1 and XPA 2 and get it all hooked up and calibrated
But until then im listening to some of my music ripped into mp3 on the pc. So far so good but i just unplugged my 2 PA 505s, connected the 1801 and adjusted the gain by ear so its not finely tuned yet. Still sounds good. Tomorrow night i shake the walls!!
Congrats! You're gonna love the sound. The XMC 1 and XPA 2 are excellent music and movie sound partners. Enjoy

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post #38058 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
Thanks for clarifying. I meant the former, ie, paying for extra dBs/extension if you won't be able to enjoy them most of the time. Of coarse 'most of the time' also means different things to different people - it could mean once a week, month, or never in some cases. It was just a value judgement for his circumstance that I wanted to make sure he was considering.
Yeah it's was definitely a good point that you brought up and I had a feeling that I knew what you meant. I just wanted to make sure to clarify some things... just in case there were some people who were confused.

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post #38059 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 10:42 AM
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Congrats! You're gonna love the sound. The XMC 1 and XPA 2 are excellent music and movie sound partners. Enjoy
actually as of right now i think your right haha. just gotta the spl meter out and did a speaker level match. have to admit it does sound better than the onkyo. im using an xpa-5 for center, surrounds and backs along with the xpa-2 for fronts. really clear and crisp sounding. i will run dirac once i find an adapter for mic to mic stand.

i will be doing a lot of listening since now thats all i can afford to do
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post #38060 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by krauley View Post
actually as of right now i think your right haha. just gotta the spl meter out and did a speaker level match. have to admit it does sound better than the onkyo. im using an xpa-5 for center, surrounds and backs along with the xpa-2 for fronts. really clear and crisp sounding. i will run dirac once i find an adapter for mic to mic stand.

i will be doing a lot of listening since now thats all i can afford to do
Yeah your Emo setup is identical to mine except for the front speaker amp(s). I've had my XMC 1 most of this year but haven't even calibrated with Dirac because it just sounds so good with basic setup. I've set the speaker distances and level matched and just enjoyed it. I do have a DSpeaker 8033S-II for the two subs. I'll be interested to hear what you think about what Dirac does for you.
Kelly

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post #38061 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Thanks, @Hopinater . That's actually the foundation of why I consider sealed as well instead of simply chasing higher output level of ported in the port tune region.
Am I right in assumption, that going sealed with dual (s1500, s1801 or s3000i) I can get lower extension and other benefits of sealed at -20db to reference even if room gain contributes little to nothing due to room size?
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
Only if you get more firepower. If your room is large enough that it doesn't contribute much gain, then you won't take advantage of lower extension without multiple sealed subs. I would think dual S3601's would be the minimum configuration in a large room with little gain.

In other words, extension doesn't matter if you don't have enough output.
Like sk373 said, the sealed subs have the POTENTIAL to achieve lower extension because of their design but that potential can't be realized without output. You can compare the numbers for the 15V and the 15S to see this. The 15S has 109 dB from 16 to 25 Hz and the 15V has 116 dB in that range. However, if you compare the graphs of the two subs you'll see they behave true to their design, the 15S rolls off slowly where as the 15V rolls off rapidly after 20 Hz. So in theory the 15S has better extension.

But that extension won't be very noticeable because of the lower output. Don't forget, the lower you go the more power it takes for noticeable bass. Those low frequencies are hard to experience, they require power. Just as sk373 said, in order to realize that potential for deeper extension you'll need to have a small room or add more fire power, either in the form of a larger sealed sub or more smaller sealed subs.
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

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post #38062 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Crowson is a great idea, and I really like it, given it will allow to get better bass experience without annoying neighbours with high SPL. Would sealed or vented be better here?

Think @Hopinater has something to add here as well, as he recently enjoyed the Crowson ride
I only wish is I had bought my Crowsons years ago. I used to run my subs 8 to 9dB hot and now I'm running them 6dB hot and I've backed my MV down from -12 to -14 (for most movies) to -18. And I feel I have plenty of bass.

It's a really interesting brain warp going on. The tactile response from the Crowsons make it sound like the bass is actually stronger even at lower volumes. Now it must be remembered I have very capable subs, and I'm still running them 6dB hot so the subs are very important. But the Crowsons and the subs really compliment one another very well.

And let me just add, playing a video game like COD with the V3601/Crowson combination is absolutely incredible.
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #38063 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Like sk373 said, the sealed subs have the POTENTIAL to achieve lower extension because of their design but that potential can't be realized without output. You can compare the numbers for the 15V and the 15S to see this. The 15S has 109 dB from 16 to 25 Hz and the 15V has 126 dB in that range. However, if you compare the graphs of the two subs you'll see they behave true to their design, the 15S rolls off slowly where as the 15V rolls off rapidly after 20 Hz. So in theory the 15S has better extension.

But that extension won't be very noticeable because of the lower output. Don't forget, the lower you go the more power it takes for noticeable bass. Those low frequencies are hard to experience, they require power. Just as sk373 said, in order to realize that potential for deeper extension you'll need to have a small room or add more fire power, either in the form of a larger sealed sub or more smaller sealed subs.
Thanks @Hopinater and @sk373 !
The trade-off is very well explained, appreciate a lot! The main question left is what fire power is enough for 320 sq.ft living room in apartments with series of openings totaling another 240 sq ft if the goal is to be OK for 20db below reference.

Reading of compression charts on the PSA site tells me that even dual 1500s can deliver 10Hz at least -20db to reference for 10 ft distance, or even bit higher, but may be I've screwed up numbers or missed the whole point

Just in case, my rough estimate, based on upper compression line (purple) from PSA site:
1) 10Hz can be delivered by single s1500 at least at 91dB, or may be higher, as compression is not max burst, neither long term output;
2) assuming it was measured at 1m distance, correspondent level at 3m, which is the distance to my MLP, is at least 82db;
3) dual gives me +6db, so 88db, corner loading may add a bit more, but lets leave it for now;
4) reference level for home is 75 db + 10db (LFE) + 20 db headroom gives me 105db for reference;
5) thus dual s1500 capable of at least -17db below reference, assuming 0 room gain
6) my longest dimension is 28 ft, which is 1/2 wavelength for 20Hz, so I might expect 6db room gain (not 9-12, as you normally do, as there are openings) at octave below, which is 10Hz

As 5) stays within -20db to reference, which is OK for my listening levels and there is an opportunity for 6), though theoretical, ain't I'm safe with even dual s1500, set aside dual s1801 or s3000i? Hope it makes sense.

PS. s3601 is a no go for me due to size limitations
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post #38064 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 12:05 PM
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Just received the tracking status for my S3000i pair. They should be delivered by the end of the day Monday. Guess what I'll be feasting on this Thanksgiving.

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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

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post #38065 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Thanks @Hopinater and @sk373 !
The trade-off is very well explained, appreciate a lot! The main question left is what fire power is enough for 320 sq.ft living room in apartments with series of openings totaling another 240 sq ft if the goal is to be OK for 20db below reference.

Reading of compression charts on the PSA site tells me that even dual 1500s can deliver 10Hz at least -20db to reference for 10 ft distance, or even bit higher, but may be I've screwed up numbers or missed the whole point

Just in case, my rough estimate, based on upper compression line (purple) from PSA site:
1) 10Hz can be delivered by single s1500 at least at 91dB, or may be higher, as compression is not max burst, neither long term output;
2) assuming it was measured at 1m distance, correspondent level at 3m, which is the distance to my MLP, is at least 82db;
3) dual gives me +6db, so 88db, corner loading may add a bit more, but lets leave it for now;
4) reference level for home is 75 db + 10db (LFE) + 20 db headroom gives me 105db for reference;
5) thus dual s1500 capable of at least -17db below reference, assuming 0 room gain
6) my longest dimension is 28 ft, which is 1/2 wavelength for 20Hz, so I might expect 6db room gain (not 9-12, as you normally do, as there are openings) at octave below, which is 10Hz

As 5) stays within -20db to reference, which is OK for my listening levels and there is an opportunity for 6), though theoretical, ain't I'm safe with even dual s1500, set aside dual s1801 or s3000i? Hope it makes sense.

PS. s3601 is a no go for me due to size limitations
I'm assuming 8 foot ceilings so with your 560 sqft of open area you have 4480 cuft which the subwoofer needs to fill. That's considered a large space.

Just a note on dual subs... My understanding is duals will only give you +6 dB if you are co-locating them. If you spread them out to get better smoothing you will only get about +3 dB gain (not taking your room response into consideration).

I think either the S1801 or the S3000i would work in your space just fine. I wouldn't expect to realize incredible output at 10 Hz but I think you would get nice output over all (you would have incredible bass from 50 to 100 Hz). IMO achieving extension down to single digits should be your last concern. It's not a cheap or easy thing to do, especially in a large room. Not to mention that there is not very much content out there in that range.
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post #38066 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

Just a note on dual subs... My understanding is duals will only give you +6 dB if you are co-locating them. If you spread them out to get better smoothing you will only get about +3 dB gain (not taking your room response into consideration).

I think either the S1801 or the S3000i would work in your space just fine. I wouldn't expect to realize incredible output at 10 Hz but I think you would get nice output over all (you would have incredible bass from 50 to 100 Hz). IMO achieving extension down to single digits should be your last concern. It's not a cheap or easy thing to do, especially in a large room. Not to mention that there is not very much content out there in that range.
Thanks a lot! That makes total sense for me
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post #38067 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Thanks @Hopinater and @sk373 !
The trade-off is very well explained, appreciate a lot! The main question left is what fire power is enough for 320 sq.ft living room in apartments with series of openings totaling another 240 sq ft if the goal is to be OK for 20db below reference.

Reading of compression charts on the PSA site tells me that even dual 1500s can deliver 10Hz at least -20db to reference for 10 ft distance, or even bit higher, but may be I've screwed up numbers or missed the whole point

Just in case, my rough estimate, based on upper compression line (purple) from PSA site:
1) 10Hz can be delivered by single s1500 at least at 91dB, or may be higher, as compression is not max burst, neither long term output;
2) assuming it was measured at 1m distance, correspondent level at 3m, which is the distance to my MLP, is at least 82db;
3) dual gives me +6db, so 88db, corner loading may add a bit more, but lets leave it for now;
4) reference level for home is 75 db + 10db (LFE) + 20 db headroom gives me 105db for reference;
5) thus dual s1500 capable of at least -17db below reference, assuming 0 room gain
6) my longest dimension is 28 ft, which is 1/2 wavelength for 20Hz, so I might expect 6db room gain (not 9-12, as you normally do, as there are openings) at octave below, which is 10Hz

As 5) stays within -20db to reference, which is OK for my listening levels and there is an opportunity for 6), though theoretical, ain't I'm safe with even dual s1500, set aside dual s1801 or s3000i? Hope it makes sense.

PS. s3601 is a no go for me due to size limitations
Hi,

Don't forget that Reference for the LFE channel is 115db. It is 105db for the regular channels. (The test tones are typically 75db simply because 85db test tones are too loud for most people.) In addition to exclusively playing the LFE channel, your subs need to provide bass support to the other speakers in your HT system, via bass management (setting crossovers). Most people allow about another 5db of sub headroom for those other channels, for a total of 120db. So, if you want to play at -20 MV, with no sub boost, you will need to have about 100db of undistorted headroom available. And, most people prefer to add a bass boost for reasons explained in the subwoofer guide linked in my signature.

It is very difficult to rely on a strictly mathematical calculation of how much subwoofer a person may need. Some of the reason for that is unknown room factors. Even more of the reason is due to individual user preferences with respect to bass. That's a large part of the reason that so many of us find ourselves in a perpetual state of upgrading subs. We find that our preferences for bass may change with our exposure to it.

If I were you, I would go as big as you can reasonably afford. If you can accommodate dual S3000i's in your room, then that's what I would start with. You always want to have plenty of undistorted headroom available. You can always turn down your master volume more, or choose to back-off on your sub boost. But, if you discover down the road that you wish you had a little more bass on tap, you will be back looking to upgrade. I would go for the largest model you can afford and accommodate now.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #38068 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKGeek View Post
Thanks @Hopinater and @sk373 !
The trade-off is very well explained, appreciate a lot! The main question left is what fire power is enough for 320 sq.ft living room in apartments with series of openings totaling another 240 sq ft if the goal is to be OK for 20db below reference.

Reading of compression charts on the PSA site tells me that even dual 1500s can deliver 10Hz at least -20db to reference for 10 ft distance, or even bit higher, but may be I've screwed up numbers or missed the whole point

Just in case, my rough estimate, based on upper compression line (purple) from PSA site:
1) 10Hz can be delivered by single s1500 at least at 91dB, or may be higher, as compression is not max burst, neither long term output;
2) assuming it was measured at 1m distance, correspondent level at 3m, which is the distance to my MLP, is at least 82db;
3) dual gives me +6db, so 88db, corner loading may add a bit more, but lets leave it for now;
4) reference level for home is 75 db + 10db (LFE) + 20 db headroom gives me 105db for reference;
5) thus dual s1500 capable of at least -17db below reference, assuming 0 room gain
6) my longest dimension is 28 ft, which is 1/2 wavelength for 20Hz, so I might expect 6db room gain (not 9-12, as you normally do, as there are openings) at octave below, which is 10Hz

As 5) stays within -20db to reference, which is OK for my listening levels and there is an opportunity for 6), though theoretical, ain't I'm safe with even dual s1500, set aside dual s1801 or s3000i? Hope it makes sense.

PS. s3601 is a no go for me due to size limitations
I would go with dual S1801 or dual S3000i's. The reason is that 91 dB @ 10-15 hz isn't the same thing as 91 dB at 30-40 hz. It takes more output at the lower frequencies for us to perceive them.

But as Hop said, there isn't much @ 10 hz to really worry about anyway. IMHO, because of the size of your room, you should buy as much sub as you can. Having the headroom is important, not necessarily for cranking it up, but making sure your system plays as cleanly as possible.
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Vizio M75-E1; Oppo 203 universal UHD player; Denon 4300H AVR, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; one pair NHT mini Atmos speakers; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case); Roku Premiere+; Amazon 4K Fire TV
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post #38069 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 01:06 PM
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I would go with dual S1801 or dual S3000i's. The reason is that 91 dB @ 10-15 hz isn't the same thing as 91 dB at 30-40 hz. It takes more output at the lower frequencies for us to perceive them.

But as Hop said, there isn't much @ 10 hz to really worry about anyway. IMHO, because of the size of your room, you should buy as much sub as you can. Having the headroom is important, not necessarily for cranking it up, but making sure your system plays as cleanly as possible.
@mthomas47 , @sk373 , @Hopinater , thanks a lot guys for so valuable inputs. Lots of very important insights!
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post #38070 of 50382 Old 11-16-2017, 01:16 PM
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I just want to take a minute to make a comment about PSA's attention to detail and quality. As you know I got my new B-stock S1801 last week and this wasn't a return, it was blemished unit. When I got the sub I was so interested in comparing sealed and ported subs that I didn't really pay any attention to looking for the blemish.

But once I had the new sub situated in my living room and dialed in I remembered this was a blemished unit so I decided to find the blemish. I looked over the amp, I looked over the cabinet, I looked at the driver... nothing. Perplexed I made a closer inspection of everything, really focusing on the finish of the cabinet... still nothing.

Since Tom had asked me to let him know what I thought of the sub I decided just to call him (easier than chat) and while I was on the phone I asked where the blemish on the sub was located. He told me I would have to remove the driver to see it. It was on the cut out in the cabinet for the driver, it was something minor but since it wasn't 100% perfect they b-stocked it, even though no one would ever be able to see it.

I wanted to share this story because that's the kind concern that PSA has for their customers and that's one of the major reasons I purchase from them.
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