Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1290 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #38671 of 53973 Old 12-16-2017, 07:40 PM
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a mini dsp has 4 presets and a remote i think.
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post #38672 of 53973 Old 12-16-2017, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Dear PSA family,
Which lullabies have sufficient bass to rock a bye my new baby boy?! Kidding...mostly

We’re all happy, healthy, and ready to get home for some relaxing family time.

The wife is really loving the look and sound of the new 210T additions and 106” PJ screen setup; movie marathon during paternity leave here we come!

Fatherhood changed my life so much....and all for the better. I am a much better man today because of my wife and two boys. God bless and enjoy every moment.
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post #38673 of 53973 Old 12-16-2017, 09:28 PM
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Fatherhood changed my life so much....and all for the better. I am a much better man today because of my wife and two boys. God bless and enjoy every moment.
Bassinet/crib vibrators work wonders when they are newborn. It gives them the sensation of being in mommy's womb. Most of them play music too. Highly recommended.

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post #38674 of 53973 Old 12-16-2017, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I'm not shocked that you may like the EQ off. You have a really nice smooth graph with your EQ applied where as with it off you have a huge peak in the lower mid bass region. That peak will make your bass sound louder in those frequencies and most people relate increased volume to good sound (that's why a lot of guys coming from car audio bass have trouble with the smoother and cleaner bass of home audio). Add the fact that movies have a lot of their effects in those frequencies where you have your peak and it makes sense that you may feel that sounds better. But based on your graph you are giving up a lot with that EQ disengaged.

Your ears may very well like stronger bass from 35 to 70 Hz and that's what you have with the EQ off. Or you might be getting tricked by the louder burst of volume in those frequencies. But remember with no EQ you are losing out on lower extension because you have a HUGE drop off from 35 Hz and down. Sadly, that means you are losing out on the lower LFE in movies. And to be honest with your EQ off you might as well buy a Polk or a BIC because you could achieve the same thing with a much cheaper one note wonder sub.... They usually play from 35 Hz to 80 Hz pretty loud (actually don't do that because they don't dig very deep and they have much poorer SQ which are the primary reasons we buy high quality subs like the PSA 15S).

Personally I would stick with the EQ on and allow yourself to get used to a smoother bass response. Start paying attention to movies that have good content below 30 Hz, play deep hitting scenes like the grenade scene from WWZ. Play it with your EQ engaged and not engaged and compare how it sounds. Let us know if you start to hear the difference.
Thanks Hopinater for you comments. You are always helpful and it is appreciated very much. I will do like you said stick with EQ on for now and see if I get more used to it. I can certainly feel the bass more with EQ off but that may be because of my sub being right behind my recliner which is my MLP. Thanks for pointing out about losing out on lower extension with no EQ because I did not notice the dropoff after 35Hz. Too bad I can't apply the PEQ to music when listening through the 7.1 analog inputs but that is ok because it sound very good like it is using the dacs from my Oppo 205.

I may get WWZ and try it out. I have been mainly comparing EQ on and off with Tron Legacy which is my go to disc for bass. Thanks again for the help.
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post #38675 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Dear PSA family,
Which lullabies have sufficient bass to rock a bye my new baby boy?! Kidding...mostly

We’re all happy, healthy, and ready to get home for some relaxing family time.

The wife is really loving the look and sound of the new 210T additions and 106” PJ screen setup; movie marathon during paternity leave here we come!
Congrats to you and your family. Thanks for sharing the wonderful news!

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post #38676 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Thanks Hopinater for you comments. You are always helpful and it is appreciated very much. I will do like you said stick with EQ on for now and see if I get more used to it. I can certainly feel the bass more with EQ off but that may be because of my sub being right behind my recliner which is my MLP. Thanks for pointing out about losing out on lower extension with no EQ because I did not notice the dropoff after 35Hz. Too bad I can't apply the PEQ to music when listening through the 7.1 analog inputs but that is ok because it sound very good like it is using the dacs from my Oppo 205.

I may get WWZ and try it out. I have been mainly comparing EQ on and off with Tron Legacy which is my go to disc for bass. Thanks again for the help.
You're welcome. Here is a thought, it seems you like your bass hot. I'm basing this on the fact you like all that extra output you're getting with no EQ. Try turning up the trim for your sub about 6 to 8 dB when you engage EQ and listen. Then when you turn off EQ turn back the trim to where it was. That way you will bring the output levels more in line with one another when you are comparing.

Tron Legacy has great bass. Flip back and forth between the settings for your subs with the scenes that hit deeper and see if you can notice a difference. See if you can hear the deeper bass with the EQ on and the trim turned up. .
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post #38677 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Bassinet/crib vibrators work wonders when they are newborn. It gives them the sensation of being in mommy's womb. Most of them play music too. Highly recommended.
no wonder so many of us love those tactile transducers shaking our home theater chairs.
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post #38678 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Thanks Hopinater for you comments. You are always helpful and it is appreciated very much. I will do like you said stick with EQ on for now and see if I get more used to it. I can certainly feel the bass more with EQ off but that may be because of my sub being right behind my recliner which is my MLP. Thanks for pointing out about losing out on lower extension with no EQ because I did not notice the dropoff after 35Hz. Too bad I can't apply the PEQ to music when listening through the 7.1 analog inputs but that is ok because it sound very good like it is using the dacs from my Oppo 205.

I may get WWZ and try it out. I have been mainly comparing EQ on and off with Tron Legacy which is my go to disc for bass. Thanks again for the help.
I have always been loathe to use eq and I still mostly prefer my music and movies with no eq...but recently after having a few issues with port chuffing on one of my subs during a handful of bass-heavy scenes. I did some placement work which helped before with my other sub....but this time I also ran antimode 8033 sii...I then ran my Yammy YPAO room correction and let it rip. Initially with antimode engaged in flat mode I felt like everything sounded tighter and faster but also less impactful. My dislike for eq was raising its ugly head......but the port chuffing was gone and others had told me to be mindful of this issue once eq is engaged. It takes a while for your ear to get used to the cleaner sound. Still I did not want the perception of less bass to circumvent my experiment, so I did as Hopinator is suggesting and ran it hotter than usual to try and somewhat compensate. YPAO set my subs at -8...so I increased the trim to -3 on bass heavy films and -1 on movies that can use the extra juice. Now I am very happy...no more chuffing and my bass sounds all around fantastic.
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post #38679 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 12:21 PM
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Congrats buddy!! What an awesome Christmas present!
Of course the PSA shirt too! Lol that's great!


Haha, thanks for the well wishes everyone. It is a powerful thing being a first time new daddy; I have a stepson as well that’s my movie buddy.

I wore the PSA t-shirt as an undershirt and when I took off the sweater my wife just looked at me and said of course.

She felt setting up a stereo system in our birthing suite for soothing white noise and baby lullabies was a bit much...request denied. Lol, I did see an article on a device that mimics car engines in cribs to soothe babies, guess that is similar to some of our tactile bass obsessions.
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post #38680 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
You're welcome. Here is a thought, it seems you like your bass hot. I'm basing this on the fact you like all that extra output you're getting with no EQ. Try turning up the trim for your sub about 6 to 8 dB when you engage EQ and listen. Then when you turn off EQ turn back the trim to where it was. That way you will bring the output levels more in line with one another when you are comparing.

Tron Legacy has great bass. Flip back and forth between the settings for your subs with the scenes that hit deeper and see if you can notice a difference. See if you can hear the deeper bass with the EQ on and the trim turned up. .
Thanks for the additional input. The only thing that concerns me about turning up the trim level for the sub in my 976 prepro is that the level is already at 0.0dB so increasing it would put it into the positive numbers which I have heard is not a good thing or something to try and avoid. Maybe I am wrong about that notion. I can always turn up the actual gain knob on the sub itself to maybe the 3oclock postion. It is currently at the 2 oclock position and Tom V from PSA said that should be no problem.

I have a follow up question if you don't mind. When I posted the graphs of the 15S yesterday that was with a "target level" of 80dB which is the starting output level I chose when I began the measurements. If I were to increase the target level to say 85 or even 90dB, would the new filters generated by REW cause less of a decrease in the overall bass level? Thanks.

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post #38681 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Thanks for the additional input. The only thing that concerns me about turning up the trim level for the sub in my 976 prepro is that the level is already at 0.0dB so increasing it would put it into the positive numbers which I have heard is not a good thing or something to try and avoid. Maybe I am wrong about that notion. I can always turn up the actual gain knob on the sub itself to maybe the 3oclock postion. It is currently at the 2 oclock position and Tom V from PSA said that should be no problem.

I have a follow up question if you don't mind. When I posted the graphs of the 15S yesterday that was with a "target level" of 80dB which is the starting output level I chose when I began the measurements. If I were to increase the target level to say 85 or even 90dB, would the new filters generated by REW cause less of a decrease in the overall bass level? Thanks.
If you are already at 0.0 I would strongly suggest changing that so you can buy yourself some room to play around. But I don't know anything about the 976 so I can't really help you with that.

REW has no affect on your bass settings all it does is measure. I'm not really sure what "target level" is with REW. I usually just set my master volume at somewhere between -20 to -15 dB and take measurements. That usually produces a graph of around 95 dB on average on my system.
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post #38682 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Thanks for the additional input. The only thing that concerns me about turning up the trim level for the sub in my 976 prepro is that the level is already at 0.0dB so increasing it would put it into the positive numbers which I have heard is not a good thing or something to try and avoid. Maybe I am wrong about that notion. I can always turn up the actual gain knob on the sub itself to maybe the 3oclock postion. It is currently at the 2 oclock position and Tom V from PSA said that should be no problem.

I have a follow up question if you don't mind. When I posted the graphs of the 15S yesterday that was with a "target level" of 80dB which is the starting output level I chose when I began the measurements. If I were to increase the target level to say 85 or even 90dB, would the new filters generated by REW cause less of a decrease in the overall bass level? Thanks.
Hop has already been giving you great advice and I agree with all that he has said. Here is something else that you can try. You have a Room Size Control which affects the low frequencies--typically under about 30Hz. The best advice I have heard (from Mark Seaton) is to EQ the sub with that control set to about the mid-point. But, once you have finished your calibration, you can experiment with setting that control higher, to provide more emphasis to the <30Hz frequencies, or setting it lower, to provide less emphasis to the very low frequencies while still hitting the mid-bass.

Combining some experimentation with the setting of the Room Size Control, with changes to the amount of sub boost you are adding, will help you to tailor the sound of your bass to your personal preferences. And, once you drop your AVR trim level to about -5, and go up correspondingly by a couple of clicks on your sub gain, you will be able to add or subtract bass easily, depending on the content in that listening session, using your AVR remote.

Regards,
Mike

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post #38683 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 02:33 PM
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What ever happened to Marc Alexander
Well, I took a break from the subwoofer forum for a few weeks in Oct. Big mistake!

I tried to pickup the PSA thread but I had to know the full story with Ahblaza and RollsTroyce (sp?) and their 7201s. So, I've been reading every post but the thread moves so fast I am always playing catch-up. I just got to Dec. 1.

I've also had less time because I have been working on a new project for me, A/V Analysis (avanalysis.com). I'll be posting my impressions and measurements of many things A/V. It won't be a duplicate of data-bass. I hope to launch in January.
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post #38684 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 02:38 PM
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post #38685 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 03:24 PM
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Hop,

I know I've mentioned this to you before, but have you ever tried the "Copy"/"Audyssey Flat Curve" function in the GEQ and gave that a listen? I much prefer the sound in my room. In fact, I turned Audyssey back on just the other night and after getting used to the sound with the GEQ, I just can't go back.

However, you have a large dip in your bass response that I don't have, and that can't be fixed with the GEQ. If you did prefer the sound, you could always add a MiniDSP for the subs.

To me, Audyssey ON sounds more "processed" and the bass sounds like it is being held back somehow...I can't explain it, because according to REW it should sound better.
Kal Rubinson reported this with his Marantz AV8802a a few years ago. I agree with what you said about Audyssey on… it can sound processed. I like it on for movies and off for music in my den and bedroom.

I have a X4300H in the den and had planned to utilize the Audyssey app. I haven't even bought the app as it just hasn't met my expectations based on other users' reports. I will be buying the app for comparison sake, but I bought a MiniDSP nanoAVR DL so I can run Dirac. That will make separate REQs I'll have running. I just need a bigger cinema room and a winning lottery ticket a Trinnov Altitude.
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post #38686 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 03:28 PM
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REW has no affect on your bass settings all it does is measure.
Yes and no, some devices, like the miniDSP 2x4, will import settings for filters from REW, I've used this feature before.
That said, I don't think the 976 does this.

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post #38687 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
If you are already at 0.0 I would strongly suggest changing that so you can buy yourself some room to play around. But I don't know anything about the 976 so I can't really help you with that.

REW has no affect on your bass settings all it does is measure. I'm not really sure what "target level" is with REW. I usually just set my master volume at somewhere between -20 to -15 dB and take measurements. That usually produces a graph of around 95 dB on average on my system.
Thanks again for your help. I will make some adjustments so I can have some room to move around with in the sub level of the AVR.

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post #38688 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hop has already been giving you great advice and I agree with all that he has said. Here is something else that you can try. You have a Room Size Control which affects the low frequencies--typically under about 30Hz. The best advice I have heard (from Mark Seaton) is to EQ the sub with that control set to about the mid-point. But, once you have finished your calibration, you can experiment with setting that control higher, to provide more emphasis to the <30Hz frequencies, or setting it lower, to provide less emphasis to the very low frequencies while still hitting the mid-bass.

Combining some experimentation with the setting of the Room Size Control, with changes to the amount of sub boost you are adding, will help you to tailor the sound of your bass to your personal preferences. And, once you drop your AVR trim level to about -5, and go up correspondingly by a couple of clicks on your sub gain, you will be able to add or subtract bass easily, depending on the content in that listening session, using your AVR remote.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike. I actually did all my measurements with the room gain setting at the midpoint. I have also tried moving the room gain setting to small and to large. So far I have not heard much difference between the two but maybe it is just my hearing. I will also drop the AVR trim level like you said and move the sub gain accordingly as well. Thanks again for the advice.
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post #38689 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
Yes and no, some devices, like the miniDSP 2x4, will import settings for filters from REW, I've used this feature before.
That said, I don't think the 976 does this.
You are correct. The 976 does not import the filters from REW. I had to manually make the adjustments in the PEQ of the 976 after looking at the suggested filters generated by REW for the 976.

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post #38690 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
Yes and no, some devices, like the miniDSP 2x4, will import settings for filters from REW, I've used this feature before.
That said, I don't think the 976 does this.
That's good to know. I've never looked into the... thanks.

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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #38691 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
a mini dsp has 4 presets and a remote i think.
I missed this post...
The miniDSP DDRC-88a has 4 presets and can be controlled with a remote, this is what I use.
Several other miniDSP products are controllable with a remote, but I don't know how many presets they have.

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post #38692 of 53973 Old 12-17-2017, 08:56 PM
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Just watched Real Steel again with the kids after a long time. The movie does not get talked about much from a bass perspective but it has some great LFE. Recommend both as a movie as for great bass.


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post #38693 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Just watched Real Steel again with the kids after a long time. The movie does not get talked about much from a bass perspective but it has some great LFE. Recommend both as a movie as for great bass.


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You're right...I've seen it three times with my boys and actually don't mind watching it because the sound mix is pretty good and there are some nice bass moments thrown in for good measure. This is how I get away with spending so much money on the theater room....because it's not just for me, it's for the whole family.
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post #38694 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Here is a new graph of my 15S after getting my new Outlaw 976 prepro which has a 10band PEQ, and applying the REW eq filters. I don't have the big increase between 25 and 65Hz. When I tested the EQ with movies I did notice an overall decrease in bass output with the EQ engaged. But movies still sounded good anyway.

It is hard to decide between EQ on or off. I have included a graph of the 15S with EQ off as well for comparison. Thanks for any comments. Also congrats to Sekosche on your new arrival.
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
You're welcome. Here is a thought, it seems you like your bass hot. I'm basing this on the fact you like all that extra output you're getting with no EQ. Try turning up the trim for your sub about 6 to 8 dB when you engage EQ and listen. Then when you turn off EQ turn back the trim to where it was. That way you will bring the output levels more in line with one another when you are comparing.

Tron Legacy has great bass. Flip back and forth between the settings for your subs with the scenes that hit deeper and see if you can notice a difference. See if you can hear the deeper bass with the EQ on and the trim turned up. .
Hop has got the right idea here, but...according to mdanderson's graphs, that peak at 60hz is about 18dB higher than his corrected response(!). Me thinks he is going to have to run the sub even hotter than 6-8dB to get that feeling back.

Start with Hop's suggested boost, but don't be afraid to go even higher...using a combination of sub trim and amp gain if need be.
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post #38695 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Well, I took a break from the subwoofer forum for a few weeks in Oct. Big mistake!

I tried to pickup the PSA thread but I had to know the full story with Ahblaza and RollsTroyce (sp?) and their 7201s. So, I've been reading every post but the thread moves so fast I am always playing catch-up. I just got to Dec. 1.
Yeah this thread can move fast at times. There have been times I didn't read it for three days and I was already five pages behind and playing catch up. But that's why this is by far my favorite thread, it's always active and fun and a lot of great guys hang out here.
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Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
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post #38696 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Maybe this will clarify. When dual subs are mutually coupled(within 1/4 wavelength of the highest frequency they play), you will get an exact, linear 6 dB increase in output across the entire frequency range that exactly matches the original frequency response. All peaks, valleys, and nulls will look exactly the same.

The reason you get 6 dB is because doubling subs(drivers, excursion, power) adds 6 dB in output. Period. But here is the tricky part. Mutually coupled, the subs are exactly in phase in all frequencies, so you get 100% constructive interference.

When the subs are spread out, you will get constructive summing at some frequencies and destructive in others. Some frequencies will see MUCH great than a 6 dB increase where a null is filled in, but less increase, or even a loss, at some frequencies where there may have been a large bloated peak.

Properly placed, dual subs that are spread out will yield an average increase of 6 dB across the frequency range. This can be verified by playing broadband pink noise.

Where does the 3 dB misconception come from? Well, as I'm sure you have seen, there are many many many people who spend thousands on their subs only to place them poorly from an acoustic standpoint in order to be symmetrical or where they prefer to have them. In cases like these, the poor placement results in poor constructive interference and may only yield a 3 dB average increase at the MLP.

But this is not because dual subs do not increase the SPL in the room by 6 dB, but because poor placement simply has not yielded the appropriate increase of 6 dB at the MLP.

However, saying dual subs only add 6 dB when placed next to each other, and only add 3 dB when spread out, is false.

Properly placed dual subs will improve average SPL by 6 dB AND improve the likely poor frequency response of the single sub.
Good post. However, I disagree that dual subs produce an average of 6dB and some frequencies greater.

TMK & IME the most gain you can expect with dual subs [at any frequency] is 6dB (co-located as you describe). When spread out some frequencies will be less than 6dB of gain but never more.

I'd love to be wrong. Do you have any sweeps you can post showing greater than 6dB of gain?

Edit: I am wrong @bear123 is 100% right regarding gain potentially exceeding 6dB. I still believe an average of 3-5dB is more realistic.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 12-18-2017 at 04:17 PM.
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post #38697 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 03:49 PM
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I posted my sweeps a few posts back and seems to be no more than 4-6 db


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post #38698 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Good post. However, I disagree that dual subs produce an average of 6dB and some frequencies greater.

TMK & IME the most gain you can expect with dual subs [at any frequency] is 6dB (co-located as you describe). When spread out some frequencies will be less than 6dB of gain but never more.

I'd love to be wrong. Do you have any sweeps you can post showing greater than 6dB of gain?
Hi Marc,

Bear can certainly speak for himself on this issue, but how much SPL to expect from a second subwoofer appears to be heavily dependent on both room modes and placement. This is a quote from a very good article from Data-Bass and a link to the article follows:

"You cannot simply assume a static gain of any amount over a substantial frequency range when the system is emitting from multiple points within a room or other confined space"

I like to use the 6db rule-of thumb myself, when referring to mutually-coupled subs, located within 1/4 wavelength of each other. But, the reality is that the actual gain derived at particular frequencies is heavily room/placement dependent, and somewhat unpredictable. I don't pretend to understand the subject fully.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=c...0#!prettyPhoto

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #38699 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 04:09 PM
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In the example given, the green trace is one subwoofer, red is two, blue is three and the black trace is with all four of them operating. It is easy to see that adding in the second subwoofer caused a gain larger than 6dB at the listening position in quite a few places � 12, 30, 40, 50 and 90Hz for example. Over some ranges output was actually lost (58-65Hz and 97-116Hz) most likely due to the phase relationship at those frequencies.
I had read this article previously but focused on room/cabin vessel gain. I missed/skipped this example in which gain exceeded 6dB at 90dB. I'd say that is definitive proof!

As always, thanks Michael!
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post #38700 of 53973 Old 12-18-2017, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hop has got the right idea here, but...according to mdanderson's graphs, that peak at 60hz is about 18dB higher than his corrected response(!). Me thinks he is going to have to run the sub even hotter than 6-8dB to get that feeling back.

Start with Hop's suggested boost, but don't be afraid to go even higher...using a combination of sub trim and amp gain if need be.
Thanks Alan for your input. I will certainly follow yours and Hop's advice on this. Just to let you know that I ran one more sub measurement with REW but this time I used 85dB for my output level and then changed the target level to 85db when I generated the EQ filters. I then put those new adjustments into the PEQ of the 976 prepro and measured the sub again. That is the graph you see in this post. I think it is the best one so far.

I tried it out in some movies like Tron Legacy and the bass response seems to quite smooth and overall output level is good as well with EQ engaged. Thanks.
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