Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1291 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #38701 of 54027 Old 12-18-2017, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Thanks Alan for your input. I will certainly follow yours and Hop's advice on this. Just to let you know that I ran one more sub measurement with REW but this time I used 85dB for my output level and then changed the target level to 85db when I generated the EQ filters. I then put those new adjustments into the PEQ of the 976 prepro and measured the sub again. That is the graph you see in this post. I think it is the best one so far.

I tried it out in some movies like Tron Legacy and the bass response seems to quite smooth and overall output level is good as well with EQ engaged. Thanks.
That looks really good. If you like how that sounds I think you pretty much nailed it.
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post #38702 of 54027 Old 12-18-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
That looks really good. If you like how that sounds I think you pretty much nailed it.
Thanks. Sounds good to me.

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post #38703 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mdanderson View Post
Thanks Alan for your input. I will certainly follow yours and Hop's advice on this. Just to let you know that I ran one more sub measurement with REW but this time I used 85dB for my output level and then changed the target level to 85db when I generated the EQ filters. I then put those new adjustments into the PEQ of the 976 prepro and measured the sub again. That is the graph you see in this post. I think it is the best one so far.

I tried it out in some movies like Tron Legacy and the bass response seems to quite smooth and overall output level is good as well with EQ engaged. Thanks.
Instead of +/-5dB from 20hz-75hz you are now +/-10dB.

Your new EQ created a large, 8dB peak at 42hz and another ~4dB peak at 67hz.

Your previous EQ was much flatter. Did you try just turning up the trim with that response?


All that being said, I prefer a peaky response myself (I have a large, ~6dB peak at 30hz)...nothing wrong with that.
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post #38704 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 10:08 AM
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Just a quick question with my 15v. Initial calibration @ ~75db and -5 on the trim. I upped the trim to -1.5 and just recently to 0.

I am still looking for a bit more oomph. Should I re run audyssey and calibrate around 80-85db? Would that lower my initial trim level?

Thanks.

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post #38705 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by klimo View Post
Just a quick question with my 15v. Initial calibration @ ~75db and -5 on the trim. I upped the trim to -1.5 and just recently to 0.



I am still looking for a bit more oomph. Should I re run audyssey and calibrate around 80-85db? Would that lower my initial trim level?



Thanks.


You should try and keep your AVR sub trim levels well into the negatives and use the sub gain to get the extra bass you are seeking. This will prevent clipping at high MV.


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post #38706 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You should try and keep your AVR sub trim levels well into the negatives and use the sub gain to get the extra bass you are seeking. This will prevent clipping at high MV.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by klimo View Post
Just a quick question with my 15v. Initial calibration @ ~75db and -5 on the trim. I upped the trim to -1.5 and just recently to 0.

I am still looking for a bit more oomph. Should I re run audyssey and calibrate around 80-85db? Would that lower my initial trim level?

Thanks.
@klimo

Yes you should re-run Audyssey with a higher subwoofer amp gain. Just be sure that you stay under -11.5 dB (-12 dB is the max and you won't know how much higher you went).

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post #38707 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 12:18 PM
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Got it. thanks!!
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post #38708 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Instead of +/-5dB from 20hz-75hz you are now +/-10dB.

Your new EQ created a large, 8dB peak at 42hz and another ~4dB peak at 67hz.

Your previous EQ was much flatter. Did you try just turning up the trim with that response?


All that being said, I prefer a peaky response myself (I have a large, ~6dB peak at 30hz)...nothing wrong with that.
Yeah I was going to say I personally like that peak he has 42 Hz (but I do wish it was a little less, like say 5 dB). I especially like the the slow climb starting at about 33 Hz, peaking at 42 Hz, and then the slow descent back down and ending at 50 Hz. I think it will play well with most movies and he still has good extension on the low end (down to about 17 Hz) so he can experience the lower LFE of movies. But that's my personal preference.

I like some peaks when they range anywhere from 20 Hz to about 45 Hz as long as they aren't out of control.
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post #38709 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 03:01 PM
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People must be really busy, this thread isn't as active as it usually is.
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post #38710 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klimo View Post
Just a quick question with my 15v. Initial calibration @ ~75db and -5 on the trim. I upped the trim to -1.5 and just recently to 0.

I am still looking for a bit more oomph. Should I re run audyssey and calibrate around 80-85db? Would that lower my initial trim level?

Thanks.
Try an 80hz crossover on your mains in the AVR with dynamic EQ on, dynamic volume off. You won't need to add much to the sub trim in my experience.

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post #38711 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Hi Mike, tried your steps. This is what I see. Seems to me that I am getting 4-6 dbs in most frequencies if I am reading this right when both subs are running? This with Audyssey off and defaults on the levels and distance. What do u think?





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Sorry for the delay. The graph looks good except for that dip. Remember to use your meter to make sure each sub hits 75db, if 1 sub is higher or lower than the other then the graph will not be accurate. You can try and move 1 or both subs to other spots to help that dip. It takes time but the reward is worth it.
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post #38712 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Dear PSA family,
Which lullabies have sufficient bass to rock a bye my new baby boy?! Kidding...mostly

We’re all happy, healthy, and ready to get home for some relaxing family time.

The wife is really loving the look and sound of the new 210T additions and 106” PJ screen setup; movie marathon during paternity leave here we come!

Congrats and remember your kids are only young once so try and spend as much time with them as possible because they grow up so fast.
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post #38713 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Good post. However, I disagree that dual subs produce an average of 6dB and some frequencies greater.

TMK & IME the most gain you can expect with dual subs [at any frequency] is 6dB (co-located as you describe). When spread out some frequencies will be less than 6dB of gain but never more.

I'd love to be wrong. Do you have any sweeps you can post showing greater than 6dB of gain?

Edit: I am wrong @bear123 is 100% right regarding gain potentially exceeding 6dB. I still believe an average of 3-5dB is more realistic.
A good example of this would be a deep 20 dB null in the response of a single sub that gets filled by the addition of the 2nd sub. In this case, the increase at that frequency could easily be 10, 20, or even 30 dB.

I'll try to dig up my single sub/dual sub sweeps, pretty sure I filled a good size null.

Last edited by bear123; 12-19-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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post #38714 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 05:03 PM
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For those of you that may have or are thinking about adding a 3rd sub to your system, I want to share my process that worked for me. For my 3rd sub I went DIY this time around, just something I wanted to try and it's not for everyone. The new addition is an UM18-22 driver in a 2' x2 'x2' sealed box made out of 3/4 inch Birch Plywood powered by an Inuke 6000DSP amp. Ok, the setup process spanned over 3 days with 2 nights spent messing with the subs until 4 a.m. I first tried all 3 subs up front which was a disaster. I could never get all 3 subs to play nice with each other, too much canceling. I ended up throwing the DIY sub in the back left corner and the S3600I and S3000I up front, left and right side and spread out. I then did the steps below:

1) I made sure all 3 subs hit 75db EACH.

2) I ran a sweep of the S3000I by itself and then ran a sweep of the S3600I by itself.

3) I adjusted the delay ( several times) of the closest sub to the MLP ( my seat) until I was getting 4-6db gain through the measured frequency. Note: It's ok if at a certain frequency you get no gain at all and usually it's only covering a minute range where you would never notice it.

4) I turned the front subs off and EQ-ed the UM18-22 sub as flat as possible ( except for a 35-45 peak) I was able to get it flat down to 5hz.

5) I then turned on the S3600I and took measurements of it along with the UM18-22 DIY sub and I got a nice flat graph down to 5hz.

6) I turned the S3600I off and turned the S3000I on and ran a sweep ( DIY and S3000I) and another great graph down to 5hz.

7) I then turned the S3600I on and ran a sweep with all 3 subs and that's when the fun starts. My graph was no longer flat down to 5hz, I was getting a nasty rolloff/dip around -16-17hz and I was getting canceling at certain frequencies and not gaining much with the 3rd sub so it was time to put some work in.

8) I started with the S3000I as it didn't have any delay set so I slowly increased the delay and ran a sweep with all 3 subs. I did this several times until I could not get any more positive results out of it. The graph look so much better after this process.

9) I then decided to see if I can further improved things with adding more delay to the S3600I, remember I had already added delay when I was dialing it in with the S3000I so I was afraid I might actually cause more harm than good by adjusting it further. I made a note of where the delay was set and then I slowly added a little more delay and ran a sweep, with each adjustment the nasty dip at 17-16hz was improving and I was getting positive gains in other frequency spots. I kept increasing it until I saw it starting to have a negative impact.

10) While I was able to improve the dip at 17-16hz, I know if I had a 4th sub in the back left corner I would be back to being flat at 5hz so the journey continues

I hope this helps anyone currently trying to dial their subs in as placement and the delay setting is key along with a Mic and REW, without it it's impossible to get your moneys worth out of this hobby.

NOTE: I still have to run Audyssey and see what my hard work nets me

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post #38715 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
A good example of this would be a deep 20 dB null in the response of a single sub that gets filled by the addition of the 2nd sub. In this case, the increase at that frequency could easily be 10, 20, or even 30 dB.

I'll try to dig up my single sub/dual sub sweeps, pretty sure I filled a good size null.
Filling a null is different than gain.
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post #38716 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by klimo View Post
Just a quick question with my 15v. Initial calibration @ ~75db and -5 on the trim. I upped the trim to -1.5 and just recently to 0.

I am still looking for a bit more oomph. Should I re run audyssey and calibrate around 80-85db? Would that lower my initial trim level?

Thanks.
Hi,

The advice that Climber gave you was perfectly valid, and if you have already implemented his suggestion, then just disregard this post.

But, you could achieve the same result by leaving your AVR trim level at -5, which is about where you would like to end up, and just increasing your sub's gain level by several clicks. You can do that without running Audyssey again. This method will get you to the same end result as starting at -11.5 and adding AVR trim up to -5. After you get up to about -5, if you wanted to add any more SPL, you would be back to using the gain control on the sub, anyway.

If you use the simpler method, I would probably pay attention to the number of clicks I go up in gain, just for curiosity sake if nothing else. I believe someone said earlier that each click equals about 1.5db, although I don't know if that is true for all PSA subs, or just the particular model that was being discussed.

Regards,
Mike
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post #38717 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

The advice that Climber gave you was perfectly valid, and if you have already implemented his suggestion, then just disregard this post.

But, you could achieve the same result by leaving your AVR trim level at -5, which is about where you would like to end up, and just increasing your sub's gain level by several clicks. You can do that without running Audyssey again. This method will get you to the same end result as starting at -11.5 and adding AVR trim up to -5. After you get up to about -5, if you wanted to add any more SPL, you would be back to using the gain control on the sub, anyway.

If you use the simpler method, I would probably pay attention to the number of clicks I go up in gain, just for curiosity sake if nothing else. I believe someone said earlier that each click equals about 1.5db, although I don't know if that is true for all PSA subs, or just the particular model that was being discussed.

Regards,
Mike


I haven't had a chance to run audyssey again, but this is MUCH easier!

Thanks!!

Will be good to go for Dunkirk!

I will turn trim down to original -5. Then turn gain up. I'm below 50% right now on the gain knob.


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post #38718 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Instead of +/-5dB from 20hz-75hz you are now +/-10dB.

Your new EQ created a large, 8dB peak at 42hz and another ~4dB peak at 67hz.

Your previous EQ was much flatter. Did you try just turning up the trim with that response?


All that being said, I prefer a peaky response myself (I have a large, ~6dB peak at 30hz)...nothing wrong with that.
I will defer to your and Hop's expertise and I do appreciate all the help you have given to me, but at this point I am not going to worry about it anymore. I am just going to enjoy my system for what it is. No need for me to keep chasing after perfection. At least my last two graphs are the best ones so far and I can choose between these two for my PEQ. I will try out some movies and decide which one I like better. Thanks.

Matt

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Last edited by mdanderson; 12-19-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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post #38719 of 54027 Old 12-19-2017, 11:10 PM
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Looks like the hard work paid off.


Edit: I forgot to turn Deq off before running the sweep.
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post #38720 of 54027 Old 12-20-2017, 06:39 AM
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^^ Wow, that looks great mike. Incredible extension.
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post #38721 of 54027 Old 12-20-2017, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Instead of +/-5dB from 20hz-75hz you are now +/-10dB.

Your new EQ created a large, 8dB peak at 42hz and another ~4dB peak at 67hz.

Your previous EQ was much flatter. Did you try just turning up the trim with that response?


All that being said, I prefer a peaky response myself (I have a large, ~6dB peak at 30hz)...nothing wrong with that.
I find that peaks in the response down low are much less offensive and actually make the bass sound deeper. I have a natural +8db peak in my room at 32hz...I have it tamed to about 4.5db and it sounds perfect.
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Last edited by basshead81; 12-20-2017 at 08:52 PM.
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post #38722 of 54027 Old 12-20-2017, 08:51 PM
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Filling a null is different than gain.
Fwiw my response lifted +8db at 20hz when adding my 3rd sub and it lowered my +12db peak @ 32hz -4db.
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post #38723 of 54027 Old 12-21-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Fwiw my response lifted +8db at 20hz when adding my 3rd sub and it lowered my +12db peak @ 32hz -4db.
What I'd like to see is the FR overlays of dual subs individually then combined. I'm still skeptical that the combined gain can ever exceed 6dB.
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post #38724 of 54027 Old 12-21-2017, 09:32 PM
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What I'd like to see is the FR overlays of dual subs individually then combined. I'm still skeptical that the combined gain can ever exceed 6dB.
Hi Marc,

I thought you said you were convinced by the overlays in the Data-Bass article I linked in an earlier post. If you stop and think about it, you know that room placement will affect subwoofer performance both positively and negatively. If room placement (and room modes) can make one sub peak or dip at certain frequencies, why wouldn't you believe that the same thing could happen with dual subs, or with even more than two?

Where room modes cause a dip to occur, dual subs will have less than 6db, or may even lose SPL compared to a single sub. And, where room modes cause a peak to occur, the gain from a second sub can be more than 6db. This is certainly something that you could test for yourself in the room where you have dual subs.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #38725 of 54027 Old 12-21-2017, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Marc,

I thought you said you were convinced by the overlays in the Data-Bass article I linked in an earlier post. If you stop and think about it, you know that room placement will affect subwoofer performance both positively and negatively. If room placement (and room modes) can make one sub peak or dip at certain frequencies, why wouldn't you believe that the same thing could happen with dual subs, or with even more than two?

Where room modes cause a dip to occur, dual subs will have less than 6db, or may even lose SPL compared to a single sub. And, where room modes cause a peak to occur, the gain from a second sub can be more than 6db. This is certainly something that you could test for yourself in the room where you have dual subs.

Regards,
Mike
It looks like what @Ricci did was simply take sweeps as he added each sub. While this shows advantages of adding subs, it's not changing the physics/math. Measuring each sub individually then summed will reveal the full picture. I still haven't been convinced that true constructive gain can exceed 6dB.
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post #38726 of 54027 Old 12-22-2017, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It looks like what @Ricci did was simply take sweeps as he added each sub. While this shows advantages of adding subs, it's not changing the physics/math. Measuring each sub individually then summed will reveal the full picture. I still haven't been convinced that true constructive gain can exceed 6dB.
Well...It can.
The problem is the physics/math become far more complicated as soon as the room boundaries are introduced and the speakers become seperated. The assumptions of a colocated pair in an anechoic environment cease to apply. Think about it logically.
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I own a pair of V3601’s and have them both nearfield (one in front and one behind.) I have my sub receiver level at 0 and my volume set to 12 o’clock on the subs. My crossover for the mains is set at 80hz. I do not use a center channel. I have noticed a heaviness or chestiness with male voices during movie dialogue scenes. I’ve turned the subs off and the effect disappears. I’ve tried lowering the sub gain, but the effect persists. Any thoughts and/or suggestions?


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post #38728 of 54027 Old 12-22-2017, 07:46 AM
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I own a pair of V3601?s and have them both nearfield (one in front and one behind.) I have my sub receiver level at 0 and my volume set to 12 o?clock on the subs. My crossover for the mains is set at 80hz. I do not use a center channel. I have noticed a heaviness or chestiness with male voices during movie dialogue scenes. I?ve turned the subs off and the effect disappears. I?ve tried lowering the sub gain, but the effect persists. Any thoughts and/or suggestions?


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If you have Deq enabled then disable it. That's if you have that feature. Where are the sub trims at? I noticed when I had my old Onkyo receiver and I set the subs around 81-82db before running Audy that male voices sounded chesty and the bass was a little boomy. For a test try lowering the crossover to your front speakers, try 60hz. Hope that helps.
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Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, 2 Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 LaVoce 21inch Neo DIY subs and 2 PSA S3600I'S.

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post #38729 of 54027 Old 12-22-2017, 08:04 AM
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What I'd like to see is the FR overlays of dual subs individually then combined. I'm still skeptical that the combined gain can ever exceed 6dB.
Isn't that basically what I just posted? The graph(no eq) is taken at reference running +5db hot with duals, then triples....then I posted the graph overlaid. It has been proven over and over that once subs are placed in room, gains at specific frequencies can be all over the place. However once you average those gains, they normally end up around +6db for doubling power and displacement. If you average the gains of my 3rd sub it ends up right in the +3-4db range even though it lifts the 20hz range +8db. The main reason why I see that gain is because my duals are nearfield and they are not netting much if any room gain below 20hz. That is the caveat of nearfield placement. My 3rd sub being further away nets more room gain. If I place all my subs far field, I end up with significantly more 20hz output in trade for an awful native response above 30hz. To the point that no amount of EQ will fix it.
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post #38730 of 54027 Old 12-22-2017, 08:14 AM
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If you have Deq enabled then disable it. That's if you have that feature. Where are the sub trims at? I noticed when I had my old Onkyo receiver and I set the subs around 81-82db before running Audy that male voices sounded chesty and the bass was a little boomy. For a test try lowering the crossover to your front speakers, try 60hz. Hope that helps.


Hi/ thanks for reply. I dont have DEQ enabled, but I will try lowering the crossover. I have Goldenear Triton 5’s, so i should be good for a 60hz crossover. Thanks again!


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