Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1297 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #38881 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 08:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It was not your imagination nor intoxication. That is the multiple sealed sub ULF wobble! This usually indicates you have the headroom and extension to reproduce the F-Irene scene in Black Hawk Down. Meanwhile, those with less sealed woofage or ported subs wonder what the fuss is about.
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Hey you!! Out of my head!!!!
I originally had the 2 S36s upfront , which sounded good , but I didnt like the idea of it shooting into the fireplace. Felt like I was losing something somehow. I then turned the one in the corner 45degrees so it hits both walls and threw the other on the side of the cat next to the BAD Cat! I never did a sub-crawl or anything so there may be some potential I am missing , but due to the size and me hating wires , they are where they are. I close my eyes and for the most part the bass sounds like its coming right from the TV or middle of the room. There is some localization at times , mostly from the corner loaded at times , but overall they sound great! Watched Apollo13 last night on Netflix at a very modest volume , and what were we saying about sealed not giving off as much TR?? lol.....I was scared to turn it any higher lol...
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post #38882 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It was not your imagination nor intoxication. That is the multiple sealed sub ULF wobble! This usually indicates you have the headroom and extension to reproduce the F-Irene scene in Black Hawk Down. Meanwhile, those with less sealed woofage or ported subs wonder what the fuss is about.
Yep! Happens to me with my S3000i!
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post #38883 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I admire your attempts at experimenting but I think it's all over for you... I'm willing to bet you're already a proud owner of dual S3601's, you just don't know it yet.

Having walked this same path many times I know it well. The path goes like this:

1. One day out of the blue a thought about a sub upgrade pops into the back of your head.
2. That thought slowly (or quickly) works it's way to the front.
3. Over time the thought becomes an obsession dominating your thoughts day and night.

At this point there is still some hope that you can turn back but it takes a lot of effort or an angry wife.

4. Now you start rationalizing why you SHOULD do the upgrade (any reason will do).
5. Post your thought on the PSA subwoofer thread to get opinions.

At this point only the strongest of us can turn back.

6. Call Tom at PSA.
7. Pretend to still be "Thinking about it" for a little while longer (this makes us feel better).
8. Place the order.
9. Receive the new subwoofer and smile because you know you did the right thing.

There is only one man I know who hit Step 9 and turned back and that's basshead. Me? I'm usually done by Step 2.

Awesome!!!!!!! That's how it usually works.
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post #38884 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I admire your attempts at experimenting but I think it's all over for you... I'm willing to bet you're already a proud owner of dual S3601's, you just don't know it yet.

Having walked this same path many times I know it well. The path goes like this:

1. One day out of the blue a thought about a sub upgrade pops into the back of your head.
2. That thought slowly (or quickly) works it's way to the front.
3. Over time the thought becomes an obsession dominating your thoughts day and night.

At this point there is still some hope that you can turn back but it takes a lot of effort or an angry wife.

4. Now you start rationalizing why you SHOULD do the upgrade (any reason will do).
5. Post your thought on the PSA subwoofer thread to get opinions.

At this point only the strongest of us can turn back.

6. Call Tom at PSA.
7. Pretend to still be "Thinking about it" for a little while longer (this makes us feel better).
8. Place the order.
9. Receive the new subwoofer and smile because you know you did the right thing.

There is only one man I know who hit Step 9 and turned back and that's basshead. Me? I'm usually done by Step 2.
I went straight from step 1 to step 8 and never looked back.

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post #38885 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 09:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SuperFist View Post
Yep! Happens to me with my S3000i!
I remember the first time it happened , although I dont remember what I was watching? I was standing behind my couch and had to grab on to it to process what was going on! It really felt a bit like Vertigo!
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post #38886 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 10:14 AM
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uGGHHH , I know , it took me forever to just box them up and to repeat that again I may just as well keep em lol....I dont think its a nagging that "Hey do I want to keep the V18's?" , I think it would just be to get a WHOLE NOTHER listen to them. Like I said , I feel like ive been lying the whole time since hearing the difference in audio! Im sure the difference in settings is relative between the subs , but just to hear the V18's in their true glory. Although being a basshead , there are dangers to that. It would almost be like "NEW BASS" and that New Bass feeling makes the wallet sweat!!


I am running the S36s on concrete with wood flooring and there are some differences with the TR. From what I can remember , I would say the 2 S36's are on par with the 2 V18's for TR for the most part. I think the V18's excite the room more easily , the couch will be buzzing during an episode of House Hunters on HGTV. Some of that may be lacking with the S36's , but I have noticed a different type of TR with them. Where the V18's will have the room buzzing , on some scenes the S36's will almost cause a wobble in the room which was a bit disorientating at first. Almost like I caught a bit of Vertigo , maybe I did or maybe I was drunker than I thought. Although this may happen with more V18's or the V36's , im not sure but its pretty cool when it does happen!
This has been an interesting discussion of the differences between sealed subs and ported subs. Personally, I think that if you are enjoying the deeper more compressive sense of the sealed subs, to the more overt feel of the ported subs, then you are ahead of the game.

But, in the interests of muddying the waters, it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily have to be an either/or in your case. Since you still have V18's and have toyed with the idea of comparing them again, why don't you leave your S3601's where you have them and try one of the V18's nearfield? Normally, it isn't a good idea to mix ported and sealed subs, but nearfield subs (within 3' of a listening position) don't engage room modes in the same way that subs further away do.

If you are able to achieve a reasonable sounding integration among the subs, you might be able to use the S3601's for most of your music listening and just engage the nearfield V18 when you really want the additional tactile impact that a ported sub provides. Just a thought.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #38887 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 10:26 AM
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Congratulations on the new setup I bet it sounds incredible. So did you initially have the MTM-210s then returned them for the MT-110's? Can you compare the sound difference between the two? Also can you talk about the difference between the two 15v's vs v3601's?


The 110 and 210 sound very similar. The 210s have a bit more midbass.




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post #38888 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
I remember the first time it happened , although I dont remember what I was watching? I was standing behind my couch and had to grab on to it to process what was going on! It really felt a bit like Vertigo!
That's good stuff right there. Whenever your subs make you feel like you're about to pass out or throw up... you have arrived!
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post #38889 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 12:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
this has been an interesting discussion of the differences between sealed subs and ported subs. Personally, i think that if you are enjoying the deeper more compressive sense of the sealed subs, to the more overt feel of the ported subs, then you are ahead of the game.

But, in the interests of muddying the waters, it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily have to be an either/or in your case. Since you still have v18's and have toyed with the idea of comparing them again, why don't you leave your s3601's where you have them and try one of the v18's nearfield? Normally, it isn't a good idea to mix ported and sealed subs, but nearfield subs (within 3' of a listening position) don't engage room modes in the same way that subs further away do.

If you are able to achieve a reasonable sounding integration among the subs, you might be able to use the s3601's for most of your music listening and just engage the nearfield v18 when you really want the additional tactile impact that a ported sub provides. Just a thought.
Regards,
mike
im going to need your full name , address , and an insurance waiver signed not to seek any damages for when my gf asks "whose f%^&in idea was this!!!????" i will need somewhere to point....thank you.
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that's good stuff right there. Whenever your subs make you feel like you're about to pass out or throw up... You have arrived!
barrrrrrfffffffff!!!!

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post #38890 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
This has been an interesting discussion of the differences between sealed subs and ported subs. Personally, I think that if you are enjoying the deeper more compressive sense of the sealed subs, to the more overt feel of the ported subs, then you are ahead of the game.

But, in the interests of muddying the waters, it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily have to be an either/or in your case. Since you still have V18's and have toyed with the idea of comparing them again, why don't you leave your S3601's where you have them and try one of the V18's nearfield? Normally, it isn't a good idea to mix ported and sealed subs, but nearfield subs (within 3' of a listening position) don't engage room modes in the same way that subs further away do.

If you are able to achieve a reasonable sounding integration among the subs, you might be able to use the S3601's for most of your music listening and just engage the nearfield V18 when you really want the additional tactile impact that a ported sub provides. Just a thought.

Regards,
Mike
Yes I agree, has been an interesting discussion and agree with a lot of what has been said. I've ran both, ported by itself, sealed by itself and mixed. I liked each on there own but do think there are some differences that I've experienced as well.

I agree that ported can be a bit more violent/explosive and has more TR (at least around tune) than the sealed, while not being quite as smooth maybe. Also I think it's true about the sealed creating a bit more pressure (not just room pressure where you feel it on your ears, but internally as well).

I'm all sealed now (I plugged my ports on my one ported DIY for the time being) to have all sealed on my 18's. To help make up the difference in that feeling of more TR and violence that ported can have, getting the sealed subs closer to you helps make up the difference (at least it did for me getting the drivers real close). It definitely helped to level the playing field when it comes to TR and that aggressive factor that ported has.

Now what about having the drivers on ported boxes real close to you (I'm talking VNF here where the driver is almost touching the back of your seat)? From subwoofers (not talking TT's or MA's here), this is probably about as much violence and TR as you can get IMO, more so than the sealed sub positioned the same way. But there are trade offs, bigger enclosures on ported if you want deep extension to get TR that you can really feel down around 10hz or so, where as sealed have the extension in a smaller box (but will probably require some or a lot Low Shelf boost sometimes to pick the bottom end up) and also possibly a little distracting having ported that close (kid kicking that back of your chair kind of thing comes to mind) but can be lessened by moving the sub a little further a way, and then the ported maybe not quite as smooth feeling as the sealed (if you like that), etc. This is VNF, so didn't really mean to get into that again, but I think if I couldn't run sealed subs very close to me, I'd go with ported, at least for movies, because I like the aggressive effect that ported can give.

@Jsnow17 - you might try running both like Mike was saying. If you can get them integrated (it might take some work) it might work out great for you, giving you the best of both worlds.
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post #38891 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 01:00 PM
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That's good stuff right there. Whenever your subs make you feel like you're about to pass out or throw up... you have arrived!
It also saves on the cost of beer.

The PSA marketing could go.... "Want the buzz without the hangover? We have just the thing for you. Dual S3601's. Want to forget your name and how you got there? Then step up to dual S7201's."

Hmmm.... Maybe I should be trading in my ported for sealed.
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post #38892 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 01:28 PM
 
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It also saves on the cost of beer.

The PSA marketing could go.... "Want the buzz without the hangover? We have just the thing for you. Dual S3601's. Want to forget your name and how you got there? Then step up to dual S7201's."

Hmmm.... Maybe I should be trading in my ported for sealed.
3. Over time the thought becomes an obsession dominating your thoughts day and night.
Id say you are rapidly approaching #3
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post #38893 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yes I agree, has been an interesting discussion and agree with a lot of what has been said. I've ran both, ported by itself, sealed by itself and mixed. I liked each on there own but do think there are some differences that I've experienced as well.

I agree that ported can be a bit more violent/explosive and has more TR (at least around tune) than the sealed, while not being quite as smooth maybe. Also I think it's true about the sealed creating a bit more pressure (not just room pressure where you feel it on your ears, but internally as well).

I'm all sealed now (I plugged my ports on my one ported DIY for the time being) to have all sealed on my 18's. To help make up the difference in that feeling of more TR and violence that ported can have, getting the sealed subs closer to you helps make up the difference (at least it did for me getting the drivers real close). It definitely helped to level the playing field when it comes to TR and that aggressive factor that ported has.

Now what about having the drivers on ported boxes real close to you (I'm talking VNF here where the driver is almost touching the back of your seat)? From subwoofers (not talking TT's or MA's here), this is probably about as much violence and TR as you can get IMO, more so than the sealed sub positioned the same way. But there are trade offs, bigger enclosures on ported if you want deep extension to get TR that you can really feel down around 10hz or so, where as sealed have the extension in a smaller box (but will probably require some or a lot Low Shelf boost sometimes to pick the bottom end up) and also possibly a little distracting having ported that close (kid kicking that back of your chair kind of thing comes to mind) but can be lessened by moving the sub a little further a way, and then the ported maybe not quite as smooth feeling as the sealed (if you like that), etc. This is VNF, so didn't really mean to get into that again, but I think if I couldn't run sealed subs very close to me, I'd go with ported, at least for movies, because I like the aggressive effect that ported can give.

@Jsnow17 - you might try running both like Mike was saying. If you can get them integrated (it might take some work) it might work out great for you, giving you the best of both worlds.
See thats the way it works around here.........
Me: "Man I found the correct settings for my AVR , sounds amazing! Makes me WONDER what my old V1801's would sound like?"
PSA Forum: "Pull one out , put it nearfield see if you like it!? It would probably be amazing!"
Me: "No I really dont need it , its alot of work , I need to send them back!"
PSA Forum: "You have already thought about it , may as well try............"
Me: "Ok , I have free time this weekend...Ill set one up"
PSA Forum: crickets
Me: "Hey so I tried that out and it sounds awesome. The TR from the V18 combined with the S36's feels like Im being launched to the moon!!!!"
PSA Forum: "IMAGINE WHAT 2 V1801's WOULD DO!!!???"
Me: "Nooo , Im already on thin ICE for setting up a 3rd!!"
PSA Forum: "Better to ask for forgiveness than permission!"
Me:
PSA Forum: " Just go ahead and throw away or burn those V18 boxes because we have you now and are under our control. We will make your spouse and wallet despise your whole existence!"
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post #38894 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 02:21 PM
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See thats the way it works around here.........
Me: "Man I found the correct settings for my AVR , sounds amazing! Makes me WONDER what my old V1801's would sound like?"
PSA Forum: "Pull one out , put it nearfield see if you like it!? It would probably be amazing!"
Me: "No I really dont need it , its alot of work , I need to send them back!"
PSA Forum: "You have already thought about it , may as well try............"
Me: "Ok , I have free time this weekend...Ill set one up"
PSA Forum: crickets
Me: "Hey so I tried that out and it sounds awesome. The TR from the V18 combined with the S36's feels like Im being launched to the moon!!!!"
PSA Forum: "IMAGINE WHAT 2 V1801's WOULD DO!!!???"
Me: "Nooo , Im already on thin ICE for setting up a 3rd!!"
PSA Forum: "Better to ask for forgiveness than permission!"
Me:
PSA Forum: " Just go ahead and throw away or burn those V18 boxes because we have you now and are under our control. We will make your spouse and wallet despise your whole existence!"
Yep... that about sums it up.

Now go set up those V1801's nearfield and report back.

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post #38895 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 02:23 PM
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^^^ LOL Yes, this place can be pure evil sometimes!!!!! Now like Hop says, hurry up, set'm up and report back
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post #38896 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 03:20 PM
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Hi Alan, about to give the GEQ a go. Do leave speaker selection as all and then curve copy? And then when it says copy Audyssey flat say yes and that is it?


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Sorry for the late reply, I've been on vaca for a few days.

Pretty sure it doesn't matter if you have it set to Individual or All when you do the curve copy. It will copy (as much as it can) to the GEQ for each individual speaker, the Individual and All settings only come into play if you want to adjust the GEQ.

I've played with adjusting the GEQ (didn't like my results any better than the default Copy), and when I did I always used the All setting...theory being that the speakers are already individually EQ'ed as well as they can be and I would only want to change the tonal balance of the system as a whole, not the individual speakers.

Make sense?
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post #38897 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 03:50 PM
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It also saves on the cost of beer.

The PSA marketing could go.... "Want the buzz without the hangover? We have just the thing for you. Dual S3601's. Want to forget your name and how you got there? Then step up to dual S7201's."

Hmmm.... Maybe I should be trading in my ported for sealed.
It is possible/probable that the slot-loading of the S7201 adds to the TR. How it would compare to a V3601 [or 2] would be a very interesting.
@ahblaza you've had V1801s, a S7201, and now dual S3601s. Do you think the slot-loading adds to the TR?

Maybe one of these days I can pay a visit to @Jim Farina with the RPI meter and do some comparisons.

I still need to visit @climber07 and he's very close to me!
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post #38898 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 03:52 PM
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As a counterpoint to the more bass, more and bigger subs etc, Dennis Foley from Acoustic Fields had some interesting thoughts on bass and room size on a you tube video I watched recently. He said rooms are like containers, they can only hold so much bass. So many guys try to put more bass in the “container” (room) than they can properly hold, with poor results. I’ve been guilty of this myself. The kitchen above my basement home theater has actually had more bass response than the theater room itself. I think it is quite possible to overdo subwooferage, particularly in smaller rooms.


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post #38899 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
As a counterpoint to the more bass, more and bigger subs etc, Dennis Foley from Acoustic Fields had some interesting thoughts on bass and room size on a you tube video I watched recently. He said rooms are like containers, they can only hold so much bass. So many guys try to put more bass in the “container” (room) than they can properly hold, with poor results. I’ve been guilty of this myself. The kitchen above my basement home theater has actually had more bass response than the theater room itself. I think it is quite possible to overdo subwooferage, particularly in smaller rooms.


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Some just don't get this and want to put Dual Cap 4000 ULFs in a 900ft³ room. Sure, it will be like a Six Flags ride but at that point its truly a ride and not a medium to enjoy the material. I'm going to start recommending these folks add D-Box while they are at it!
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post #38900 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 04:09 PM
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Sorry for the late reply, I've been on vaca for a few days.

Pretty sure it doesn't matter if you have it set to Individual or All when you do the curve copy. It will copy (as much as it can) to the GEQ for each individual speaker, the Individual and All settings only come into play if you want to adjust the GEQ.

I've played with adjusting the GEQ (didn't like my results any better than the default Copy), and when I did I always used the All setting...theory being that the speakers are already individually EQ'ed as well as they can be and I would only want to change the tonal balance of the system as a whole, not the individual speakers.

Make sense?
I experimented with the GEQ copy method you described and ended up restoring my Audyssey calibration which seemed provide a deeper, more well defined bass response .
The GEQ approach may very well be room dependent, so it's worth a try if you're in the mood to experiment.
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post #38901 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sorry for the late reply, I've been on vaca for a few days.



Pretty sure it doesn't matter if you have it set to Individual or All when you do the curve copy. It will copy (as much as it can) to the GEQ for each individual speaker, the Individual and All settings only come into play if you want to adjust the GEQ.



I've played with adjusting the GEQ (didn't like my results any better than the default Copy), and when I did I always used the All setting...theory being that the speakers are already individually EQ'ed as well as they can be and I would only want to change the tonal balance of the system as a whole, not the individual speakers.



Make sense?


Happy New Year Alan and yes makes sense. I did try GEQ and will try again. I still preferred Audyssey but that could be just my ears used to the sound.


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post #38902 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 04:22 PM
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It is possible/probable that the slot-loading of the S7201 adds to the TR. How it would compare to a V3601 [or 2] would be a very interesting.
@ahblaza you've had V1801s, a S7201, and now dual S3601s. Do you think the slot-loading adds to the TR?

Maybe one of these days I can pay a visit to @Jim Farina with the RPI meter and do some comparisons.

I still need to visit @climber07 and he's very close to me!
I don't think the s7201 is using slot loading. The cavities are too big. I do get a feeling like a shockwave at certain frequencies if I put my head right next to the upper one. I really need to clear three feet behind my listening position and place it directly behind me to see how it can really feel. Then stack two um18s on either side of it, also firing into couch. Biggest problem there is I only have a single rear speaker so the 7201 will block it completely. I guess two Volt 10s for rears would solve that...
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It is possible/probable that the slot-loading of the S7201 adds to the TR. How it would compare to a V3601 [or 2] would be a very interesting.
@ahblaza you've had V1801s, a S7201, and now dual S3601s. Do you think the slot-loading adds to the TR?

Maybe one of these days I can pay a visit to @Jim Farina with the RPI meter and do some comparisons.

I still need to visit @climber07 and he's very close to me!
Unless I have missed it , I havent seen ahblaza post about the S36's? That was at least 1-2 months ago. Hope all is well , I remember him talking about his or his brothers health issues? Maybe I have just missed his posts hopefully....
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post #38904 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Some just don't get this and want to put Dual Cap 4000 ULFs in a 900ft³ room. Sure, it will be like a Six Flags ride but at that point its truly a ride and not a medium to enjoy the material. I'm going to start recommending these folks add D-Box while they are at it!


Yes. A D-Box, for the full experience! Seriously though, i think a lot of guys want to be physically impacted by a movie (I do myself), but there are sensible limits to how far we can go.


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post #38905 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
I experimented with the GEQ copy method you described and ended up restoring my Audyssey calibration which seemed provide a deeper, more well defined bass response .
The GEQ approach may very well be room dependent, so it's worth a try if you're in the mood to experiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Happy New Year Alan and yes makes sense. I did try GEQ and will try again. I still preferred Audyssey but that could be just my ears used to the sound.


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I'm sure the effectiveness of this is very room dependent, but I'm glad you guys at least gave it a try.


EDIT: If you were using DEQ with Audyssey, make sure that you bump up the sub trim substantially when using the GEQ (5-6dB).
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post #38906 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 04:49 PM
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We will make your spouse and wallet despise your whole existence!"
You left out building integrity and neighbors.
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post #38907 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 05:01 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
I experimented with the GEQ copy method you described and ended up restoring my Audyssey calibration which seemed provide a deeper, more well defined bass response .

The GEQ approach may very well be room dependent, so it's worth a try if you're in the mood to experiment.


I agree. I found the same. Will try again just for grins.
@Alan P my DEQ is off. I don’t think I will ever turn it on.

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post #38908 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 05:48 PM
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Ahh, a little dynamic eq never hurt anyone
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post #38909 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
Unless I have missed it , I havent seen ahblaza post about the S36's? That was at least 1-2 months ago. Hope all is well , I remember him talking about his or his brothers health issues? Maybe I have just missed his posts hopefully....
I was just thinking about this today and no, you haven't missed any posts from ahblaza... he's been missing for a couple of months. I hope he's okay.
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post #38910 of 54016 Old 01-04-2018, 06:05 PM
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I was just thinking about this today and no, you haven't missed any posts from ahblaza... he's been missing for a couple of months. I hope he's okay.
I heard from Jeffrey the other day. He's doing ok, was going through some health issues but looks forward to joining us all again soon
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