Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 1399 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 64665Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #41941 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
I thought I read somewhere that if the crossover for LFE was reduced from the default 120, that less content would be played by atmos and surround speakers. Personally, I don't feel like my atmos speakers are active enough and I like to keep the content going to them as much as possible.
David Charles is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #41942 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:41 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked: 492
@GeoJustGeo Dual V1801's is alot of firepower and like Basshead said "They should be enough for the largest of rooms!." I had your dilemma when remodeling my house , I had dual V18's in a roughly 17x17 living room that was plenty. I worried since we were remodeling to almost double that and having an open floor plan , the V18's would struggle. They kind of did the opposite , it was like the open area allowed them to breathe and pound harder! I still had the mindset that im going to upgrade , but I thought about the V18's and tried to picture 2-3X's that bass with dual V3601's. Visually the thought of them threw the GF into a frenzy of "Do we really need all that?" and honestly , we didnt. So I switched my order to dual S36's because I had been eager to try a sealed again , and the size of the was a lot more acceptable , they are still big but not V36 big!
The V18's pound the walls , but the S36's seem to fill the room wall to wall with pressure and great sounding bass. Im sure the V36's will do the same , but there is definitely a sound " I " prefer with sealed. I was recently treated to a demo of 3 JTR Cap2400s in a sealed theater room , maybe 15x25 or so. While they were awesome to hear and experience, I still like the sound of my S36's and S30. They are just a bit smoother and filling , and those ported 2400s and V36's are just downright VIOLENT! They will just beat you up with brass knuckles , while the sealed will still beat you up , but with 12 ounce boxing gloves on!
brahman12 and GeoJustGeo like this.
Jsnow17 is offline  
post #41943 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsnow17 View Post
@GeoJustGeo Dual V1801's is alot of firepower and like Basshead said "They should be enough for the largest of rooms!." I had your dilemma when remodeling my house , I had dual V18's in a roughly 17x17 living room that was plenty. I worried since we were remodeling to almost double that and having an open floor plan , the V18's would struggle. They kind of did the opposite , it was like the open area allowed them to breathe and pound harder! I still had the mindset that im going to upgrade , but I thought about the V18's and tried to picture 2-3X's that bass with dual V3601's. Visually the thought of them threw the GF into a frenzy of "Do we really need all that?" and honestly , we didnt. So I switched my order to dual S36's because I had been eager to try a sealed again , and the size of the was a lot more acceptable , they are still big but not V36 big!
The V18's pound the walls , but the S36's seem to fill the room wall to wall with pressure and great sounding bass. Im sure the V36's will do the same , but there is definitely a sound " I " prefer with sealed. I was recently treated to a demo of 3 JTR Cap2400s in a sealed theater room , maybe 15x25 or so. While they were awesome to hear and experience, I still like the sound of my S36's and S30. They are just a bit smoother and filling , and those ported 2400s and V36's are just downright VIOLENT! They will just beat you up with brass knuckles , while the sealed will still beat you up , but with 12 ounce boxing gloves on!
I would love to try s3601's in my room, but I am quite sure that the concrete floor that I have would quickly make me regret my decision
GeoJustGeo and Jsnow17 like this.
David Charles is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #41944 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
subacabra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Hillsborough, New Jersey
Posts: 2,544
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1678 Post(s)
Liked: 4895
Great discussion on lpf for lfe.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...2820129?page=1
mthomas47, basshead81 and biga6761 like this.
subacabra is online now  
post #41945 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 08:10 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I would love to try s3601's in my room, but I am quite sure that the concrete floor that I have would quickly make me regret my decision
I assume you mean with TR? I have concrete and dont miss a thing! Although I dont know what dual V36's would've done in my house , but coming from the 2 V18's , the difference is negligible.
GeoJustGeo likes this.
Jsnow17 is offline  
post #41946 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 08:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ereed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,456
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2304 Post(s)
Liked: 1625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copperhorse73 View Post
1. The PSA will go as loud as I’ve ever asked them to and not break much of a sweat. With the SVS ,if I turned them up too much they were straining.
2. Just the feeling of enveloping bass in the room. With SVS I felt like I had decent bass, but with the PSA the whole room is “energized”.

I’ve upgraded all of my equipment over the last few years and getting some “real” subs was the best move of all of them. Brings a lot of smiles, and that’s what this hobby is all about to me.
I wasn't aware you had svs in the past. Also wanted to thank you for letting me purchase your used V1500 to blend with my dual svs pb13s and its blends very well. The v1500 is pretty much similar to pb13 in 20hz port tune mode so it sounds like I have 3 pb13s, or 3 V1500s. LOL

I know we have been to each other's house to demo each other's systems but I want to invite you back to my house again especially after moving the subs around and putting V1500 nearfield. Bass response is much better with 3 subs vs 2 subs in my room!
jamiebosco and ahblaza like this.

Sony 45es | 120 inch screen | Panasonic BDT500 | Rotel RMB-1075 | Rotel RMB-1077 | Rotel RSP-1068 | Klipsch RP-280F/RP-450C/RP-160M (x4) | Funk Audio subs (x2) | MiniDSP 2x4HD | Crowson D-501/Shadow-8 Actuators (x2) | Monster Power Conditioner | GIK acoustic panels
ereed is offline  
post #41947 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 08:44 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,268
Mentioned: 345 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5482 Post(s)
Liked: 10460
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post

And now we're here, at the last days of my trial. I am completely satisfied and happy with my v1801, I'm sure now that you've read the back story you understand why. I run the gain at 12 o'clock and room eq sets it at +5 but I change it back between -6 and -4 consistently (mlp is not the best spot or the sub isn't in the best placement). Either way I'm extremely happy with it.

So here's my dilemma. I have saved enough to where I can get my 2nd v1801 in a few weeks. But then the infamous "what if" strikes. I can return the v1801 and afford the v3601 in about 2 weeks. But then the size of it becomes questionable to me. I'm single so no WAF, but just a lil crazy to me to picture a huge sub like that in my living room.

Which brings me to my next problem. This isn't my house, I live with roommates who enjoy my home-theater addiction lol. We have movie night like 3 days a week. Anyways, next year I plan on buying my first house (been waiting for the right time to use my VA Home loan, U.S. Marine Corps Vet). So the "room" question to help me decide what's the best sub for me is completely irrelevant. And that's where I'm confused on staying ported or going back to sealed as I was for 10 yrs. And to be honest, I can't distinguish much from either. My sealed dual 10's was too small to compare to this ported v1801, so I really have no preference.

So then I think to myself, if I get dual V or S 3601's....with that money I coulda just bought a 4000 ULF lmao! I hate this subwoofer game and I hate that you guys turn ppl like me who's original budget was $300 for 1 sub into the $3k-4k for duals lol.

I'm so lost. I just want to do it right the first time, I'm sure everyone who's read this far understands lol. HELP??!!

(You can just @me to avoid quoting this huge essay lol)
Hi,

After reading your post, I made sure that I also read all the other responses to your question, so that I would have the benefit of some other perspectives on this. I believe that you have already gotten good advice to get a second V1801. I think that to some extent at least, the "what ifs" are a matter of self-discipline, and that is something that a former Marine knows something about.

There is always going to be more out there. If you bought a Cap 4000 today, there might be a Cap 6000 in two years, to tempt you again. So, I think that you really need to approach this question from the standpoint of how much output will actually satisfy you, unless you really do just want to have the biggest subwoofer currently in the marketplace.

If you approach this question purely from a satisfaction standpoint, then I think you have your answer. You said it in the sentence I bolded. You are "completely happy and satisfied with your V1801". Given that, I would just get a second one to improve your frequency response, give you about 6db more headroom, and perhaps increase your sense of bass envelopment. After you buy your new house, and have lived in it for a while, if you want to experiment with something else that will certainly still be possible.

But, not knowing anything at all about how big or small, or solidly constructed, or open or sealed, your new HT room will be, I would just stick with what you do know right now. You know that you really like a PSA 18" ported sub, and you know that you can afford to buy another one. When it comes to HT, that's actually a lot to know.

Regards,
Mike
ahblaza, imureh, Hopinater and 3 others like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #41948 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 09:34 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,268
Mentioned: 345 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5482 Post(s)
Liked: 10460
^^^

Two issues that have come up in the last couple of pages are interesting, and Ray asked me to address one of them. The one he asked me to address was discussed at some length in the thread that subacabra linked. The LFE (low-frequency effects) channel is a completely separate channel that has nothing to do with the regular channels in our HT systems. That channel was specifically designed to provide more low-bass for 5.1 movies; it is only in operation with 5.1 content; and it is only played by subwoofers as long as a subwoofer is configured in an audio system.

The Cliff Notes version of this is that Mark Seaton and Roger Dressler (one of the original Dolby engineers and the creator of Pro Logic and PLII) noticed that most LFE content above 80Hz was random noise. That is consistent with the original intent of the LFE channel, which was to augment the low-bass with an additional 10db of SPL. At Reference (0.0 MV) the regular channels can hit peaks of 105db where the LFE channel can hit peaks of 115db.

Reducing the LPF (low pass filter) of LFE can, for some people, result in slightly clearer bass, as the fluff above 80Hz is removed. It can also give subwoofers slightly more headroom, as they are relieved of having to play the extra 40db of relatively meaningless noise that is in most soundtracks above about 80Hz. Personally, I like the lower LPF setting. YMMV!


* The other interesting issue involves the gain/trim settings for our subwoofers. To me, this is also a YMMV issue. It was Mark Seaton again, along with several other subwoofer makers, who I first heard comment on the possibility of clipping subwoofer signals on Denon/Marantz and Onkyo AVR's, when trim settings approached 0.0. Apparently, this was never (or rarely) a problem with Yamaha AVR's, as the older ones send a lower initial voltage to the subwoofer. (This issue is addressed in detail in the Guide, linked in my signature.)

Another factor that has come to light, more recently, involves the extent to which some subwoofers are not able to achieve their max outputs with lower gain settings. Some subwoofers can only achieve max output levels with very high gain settings. Lower gain settings, and higher trim levels, will not produce the same max SPL with every sub. This seems to vary somewhat among different subwoofer makes and models. I know that it applies to some SVS subs.

For comparison, Data-Bass always tests subwoofers with gain settings at maximum. If a particular subwoofer model is able to achieve satisfactory output with a lower gain setting, then this issue is a non-factor. For people who want to experiment, it may be possible to achieve higher SPL and more TR (tactile response) from a particular subwoofer, with a higher gain setting and a correspondingly lower trim setting, than it would be if the gain and trim settings were reversed. Again, YMMV!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #41949 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2857 Post(s)
Liked: 3583
Thanks Mike. I shall have to experiment with the lower LPF setting. I thought it was sacrilegious to change it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mthomas47 likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
post #41950 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 10:11 AM
Member
 
Copperhorse73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Huntersville, NC
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I wasn't aware you had svs in the past. Also wanted to thank you for letting me purchase your used V1500 to blend with my dual svs pb13s and its blends very well. The v1500 is pretty much similar to pb13 in 20hz port tune mode so it sounds like I have 3 pb13s, or 3 V1500s. LOL



I know we have been to each other's house to demo each other's systems but I want to invite you back to my house again especially after moving the subs around and putting V1500 nearfield. Bass response is much better with 3 subs vs 2 subs in my room!


Awesome! Yeah my last rig was dual SB2000, good subs for the money I guess but not in same league as the PSAs. It will be a few weeks before I can make it back over due to upcoming weekend plans, but I can’t wait to see/feel the improvement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ereed likes this.
Copperhorse73 is offline  
post #41951 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 10:21 AM
Senior Member
 
biga6761's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Piney Flats, TN
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
I did the same. Left trims where Audy set them, I believe -10.5 and -10 and bumped both gains equally to just about noon.
Lowered my lpf for lfe from 120 to 90 as well.
Like you have described, it seems the bass just hits harder and with more oomph and authority!
Watched It at -10 this past Sunday and it was like waves of bass just pumping through my room! @biga6761 recommended this to me and I couldn't be happier.
Perhaps he could chime in with his reasoning as I don't want to misquote him.
In simple terms the lowering of the sub trim inside the AVR is totally an issue of prevention. It has been a standard practice for mixers to split up the low freq content of films between the LFE and the LCR's since the beginning of multichannel surround sound and prob farther back than that. This was born of the fact that some theaters didn't have subwoofers and therefore didn't have an active LFE channel. Also high quality bass mgt. was not always a fixture in all playback scenarios so to make sure that no matter the setup some low freq content would be present by mixing it into the LCR's. After more and more measurement equipment became cheaper and interest grew, fellow enthusiast like ourselves started to measure soundtracks and realized that quite often the low freq content mixed into the LCR's is very high level and just as low in freq as what is mixed to the LFE channel.

What this means to us in the home theater where 80hz crossovers are the norm is that almost every soundtrack has bass that must be rediffected to the LFE via the bass mgt. in our receiver/pre-amps. While all modern receivers and pre-amps have solid bass mgt. even the best and most expensive gear can't handle full level redirected LCR bass sent to the LFE without clipping the sub output at MV's above say -10 without taking some kind of preventative action. This action comes in the form of lowering the LFE trim deep into the negative trim levels.

This is not to say that every soundtrack clips the sub out from redirected bass or has the potential to but when the really wicked soundtracks do come down the pike(hard to say if it's happening more or less than it used to) your system has to be ready for that worst case scenario. And if you think about it unless you analyse every track you playback before playing it back you had better be ready all the time. It's not always the big blockbuster films that have LCR bass strong enough to cause problems so one can't just guess at it either.

Running the sub trim at -10 or so will keep you safe with most gear all the way to reference but if you listen at no more than a -10MV a sub trim of -3 to -6 or so is prob safe. My Marantz 7702 was tested by Shreads over at Databass soon after coming out and it was found to clip the sub output above -8MV unless the sub trim was kept below -6 and if the MV was pushed to reference the trim must be kept at -10 or lower. A lot of folks who don't follow this advice say they can't hear this clipping so it must not be a problem but just because you don't hear it directly does not mean it is not there when looked at on an o-scope. Also sub output clipping manifests itself mostly as squashed dynamics which rob impact and punch plus it also forces a subwoofer to playback unintended square waves. It can also lead to premature sub amp clipping/limiting which again robs output and dynamics.

As I stated earlier this all pertains to MV's above -10 and if you never listen to your system this loud EVER(and I do mean EVER because if you only once a year "show off" your rig and push the MV past -10 then you need to be prepared for that worst case all year round by calibrating your sub with the sub trim deep into the negative and using the gain/volume on the sub amp to make up the difference. Most every system I have been around and calibrated this way see's a step up in sound quality for the effort and also have the piece of mind of knowing they will never have to worry about clipping their sub out, no matter the content or MV level.

Now in a few cases I have heard of some older receivers that can't be kept from clipping the sub out with strong redirected bass from the LCR's by lowering the sub trim but this has only been issue on 2 much older units that I know of, though there could be more I'm unaware of.


This was all brought about by a thread on Databass that I will link below. It started because the Oppo 105 was found to clip the sub out because of how the bass mgt. was implemented and lowering the sub trim wouldn't help the issue. Once this very high end piece of gear was found to have the problem it led to lots of testing, including the previously mentioned 7702 test. I would recommend anyone who sets up their own gear give this whole thread a good read.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/3...ean-sw-signal/

And this thread has more info.
http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/3...nd-an-o-scope/

Epson 5040UB-125" Silver Ticket 2.35:1-Xbox One S- HTPC JRiver MC24
Marantz av7702 - Crestron CNAMPX-12x60 Fully Bridged to 6x220 - 2_Crown Xls 2000's
Crown Xls 1500 - Qsc RMX 1450 - Qsc RMX 850 - 2_Inuke 3kDSP's - Inuke 6kDSP
Speakers}7.4.4 Atmos DIYSoundGroup HTM-12's, Volt-8's
Subs}8 SI HT-18 v.2's SBA 11hz Ported IB-Nr Fld 2_PA460 MBM's-UM18 FMarty-2_Buttkicker's

Last edited by biga6761; 05-03-2018 at 06:44 PM.
biga6761 is offline  
post #41952 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by biga6761 View Post
In simple terms the lowering of the sub trim inside the AVR is totally an issue of prevention. It has been a standard practice for mixers to split up the low freq content of films between the LFE and the LCR's since the beginning of multichannel surround sound and prob farther back than that. This was born of the fact that some theaters didn't have subwoofers and therefore didn't have an active LFE channel. Also high quality bass mgt. was not always a fixture in all playback scenarios so to make sure that no matter the setup some low freq content would be present by mixing it into the LCR's. After more and more measurement equipment became cheaper and interest grew, fellow enthusiast like ourselves started to measure soundtracks and realized that quite often the low freq content mixed into the LCR's is very high level and just as low in freq as what is mixed to the LFE channel.

What this means to us in the home theater where 80hz crossovers are the norm is that almost every soundtrack has bass that must be rediffected to the LFE via the bass mgt. in our receiver/pre-amps. While all modern receivers and pre-amps have solid bass mgt. even the best and most expensive gear can't handle full level redirected LCR bass sent to the LFE without clipping the sub output at MV's above say -10 without taking some kind of preventative action. This action comes in the form of lowering the LFE trim deep into the negative trim levels.

This is not to say that every soundtrack clips the sub out from redirected bass or has the potential to but when the really wicked soundtracks do come down the pike(hard to say if it's happening more or less than it used to) your system has to be ready for that worst case scenario. And if you think about it unless you analyse every track you playback before playing it back you had better be ready all the time. It's not always the big blockbuster films that have LCR bass strong enough to cause problems so one can't just guess at it either.

Running the sub trim at -10 or so will keep you safe with most gear all the way to reference but if you listen at no more than a -10MV a sub trim of -3 to -6 or so is prob safe. My Marantz 7702 was tested by Shreads over at Databass soon after coming out and it was found to clip the sub output above -8MV unless the sub trim was kept below -6 and if the MV was pushed to reference the trim must be kept at -10 or lower. A lot of folks who don't follow this advice say they can't hear this clipping so it must not be a problem but just because you don't hear it directly does not mean it is not there when looked at on an o-scope. Also sub output clipping manifests itself mostly as squashed dynamics which rob impact and punch plus it also forces a subwoofer to playback unintended square waves. It can also lead to premature sub amp clipping/limiting which again robs output and dynamics.

As I stated earlier this all pertains to MV's above -10 and if you never listen to your system this loud EVER(and I do mean EVER because if you only once a year "show off" your rig and push the MV past -10 then you need to be prepared for that worst case all year round by calibrating your sub with the sub trim deep into the negative and using the gain/volume on the sub amp to make up the difference. Most every system I have been around and calibrated this way see's a step up in sound quality for the effort and also have the piece of mind of knowing they will never have to worry about clipping their sub out, no matter the content or MV level.

Now in a few cases I have heard of some older receivers that can't be kept from clipping the sub out with strong redirected bass from the LCR's by lowering the sub trim but this has only been issue on 2 much older units that I know of, though there could be more I'm unaware of.


This was all brought about by a thread on Databass that I will link below. It started because the Oppo 105 was found to clip the sub out because of how the bass mgt. was implemented and lowering the sub trim wouldn't help the issue. Once this very high end piece of gear was found to have the problem it led to lots of testing, including the previously mentioned 7702 test. I would recommend anyone who sets up their own gear give this whole thread a good read.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/3...ean-sw-signal/
I love how informative that was!! Thanks
mthomas47 and biga6761 like this.
David Charles is offline  
post #41953 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 10:43 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2857 Post(s)
Liked: 3583
Quote:
Originally Posted by biga6761 View Post
In simple terms the lowering of the sub trim inside the AVR is totally an issue of prevention. It has been a standard practice for mixers to split up the low freq content of films between the LFE and the LCR's since the beginning of multichannel surround sound and prob farther back than that. This was born of the fact that some theaters didn't have subwoofers and therefore didn't have an active LFE channel. Also high quality bass mgt. was not always a fixture in all playback scenarios so to make sure that no matter the setup some low freq content would be present by mixing it into the LCR's. After more and more measurement equipment became cheaper and interest grew, fellow enthusiast like ourselves started to measure soundtracks and realized that quite often the low freq content mixed into the LCR's is very high level and just as low in freq as what is mixed to the LFE channel.



What this means to us in the home theater where 80hz crossovers are the norm is that almost every soundtrack has bass that must be rediffected to the LFE via the bass mgt. in our receiver/pre-amps. While all modern receivers and pre-amps have solid bass mgt. even the best and most expensive gear can't handle full level redirected LCR bass sent to the LFE without clipping the sub output at MV's above say -10 without taking some kind of preventative action. This action comes in the form of lowering the LFE trim deep into the negative trim levels.



This is not to say that every soundtrack clips the sub out from redirected bass or has the potential to but when the really wicked soundtracks do come down the pike(hard to say if it's happening more or less than it used to) your system has to be ready for that worst case scenario. And if you think about it unless you analyse every track you playback before playing it back you had better be ready all the time. It's not always the big blockbuster films that have LCR bass strong enough to cause problems so one can't just guess at it either.



Running the sub trim at -10 or so will keep you safe with most gear all the way to reference but if you listen at no more than a -10MV a sub trim of -3 to -6 or so is prob safe. My Marantz 7702 was tested by Shreads over at Databass soon after coming out and it was found to clip the sub output above -8MV unless the sub trim was kept below -6 and if the MV was pushed to reference the trim must be kept at -10 or lower. A lot of folks who don't follow this advice say they can't hear this clipping so it must not be a problem but just because you don't hear it directly does not mean it is not there when looked at on an o-scope. Also sub output clipping manifests itself mostly as squashed dynamics which rob impact and punch plus it also forces a subwoofer to playback unintended square waves. It can also lead to premature sub amp clipping/limiting which again robs output and dynamics.



As I stated earlier this all pertains to MV's above -10 and if you never listen to your system this loud EVER(and I do mean EVER because if you only once a year "show off" your rig and push the MV past -10 then you need to be prepared for that worst case all year round by calibrating your sub with the sub trim deep into the negative and using the gain/volume on the sub amp to make up the difference. Most every system I have been around and calibrated this way see's a step up in sound quality for the effort and also have the piece of mind of knowing they will never have to worry about clipping their sub out, no matter the content or MV level.



Now in a few cases I have heard of some older receivers that can't be kept from clipping the sub out with strong redirected bass from the LCR's by lowering the sub trim but this has only been issue on 2 much older units that I know of, though there could be more I'm unaware of.





This was all brought about by a thread on Databass that I will link below. It started because the Oppo 105 was found to clip the sub out because of how the bass mgt. was implemented and lowering the sub trim wouldn't help the issue. Once this very high end piece of gear was found to have the problem it led to lots of testing, including the previously mentioned 7702 test. I would recommend anyone who sets up their own gear give this whole thread a good read.



http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/3...ean-sw-signal/


Thanks for this. What has your experience been with lowering the LPF for LFE from the standard 120hz to 80 or 90? I had always heard this should not be touched but looks like lowering it actually may help the bass sound better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
biga6761 likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
post #41954 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 11:43 AM
Senior Member
 
biga6761's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Piney Flats, TN
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked: 833
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks for this. What has your experience been with lowering the LPF for LFE from the standard 120hz to 80 or 90? I had always heard this should not be touched but looks like lowering it actually may help the bass sound better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have measured the effects of lowering the LPF of LFE in my system with REW and the effect is subtle. As you guys know crossovers are not brick walls, so lowering the LPF of LFE doesn't cause content to be lost as I have seen it theorised by some( not in this thread). From my measurments, what happens is the high end of the sub band freqs(70-150hz or so) are rolled off at a faster rate than it does when left at 120hz. This roll off rate remains the same as far as the crossover order but just starts to roll off at a lower freq.
Meaning if you leave the LPF of LFE at 120hz the response will start to roll off around say 105hz or so and be down 6-10db by 150hz where if you lower the LPF of LFE to say 90hz the upper end of the response will start to roll off around 80hz and be down 6-10db by 130hz or so. This has the effect of lowering the upper bass range's total output by between 2-10db overall between 70hz and 150hz. Just as Subacabra had a boomy peak in his upper bass, by lowering the LPF of LFE to 90hz instead of 120hz he most likely reduced that peak by a few db giving a more balanced low freq presentation and removing the boom.
Most times the boom comes from the combo of the main speakers and sub response combining around and above the crossover points of each the sub and speakers. By lowering the LPF of LFE you lower the output of the subs enough around and above the speakers crossover to remove the boom and give a flatter crossover point response therefore removing the boom. ( this is considering you have done the sub distance tweak to maximize the output and flatness around the crossover point giving the best blend of the subs and speakers but still have issues with boom around said crossover point)

Weather or not you should lower the LPF of LFE is completely system and room dependent meaning experimentation is key. If you lower it and find your system to sound better you can leave it there and be confident you are not throwing away upper bass content, you are simply playing back that content above say 80-100hz at a lower level than you were with the LPF of LFE at 120hz. Anyone can verify this by measuring it with REW as I did.

Whether or not some receiver brands change the content sent to the heights or surrounds(or any speakers for that matter) by changing the LPF of LFE I can't say for sure, but IME this is not an issue(at least for D&M units) from the measurements I have taken in my rig. Because running my LPF of LFE at anything different than 120hz doesn't change any measurements other than the subs and the way the speakers blend with the sub at their crossover point. Again this is where measuring and experimentation is best to verify how changing the LPF of LFE effects the crossover blend with the speakers but our ears are also very good measurement devices and if you like the sound of your system with the LPF of LFE lower than 120hz but can't measure it's effect that's totally up to you and is just fine. It is you who has to listen to it anyway.

If anyone has measured different behavior with their gear I default to them but this is the behavior I have measured in my system using the 7702. Hope this helps and feel free to reach out if I can clarify anything any better for you or if you have any other question I can possibly answer.

Cheers fellow bass junkies.
ahblaza, mthomas47, imureh and 4 others like this.

Epson 5040UB-125" Silver Ticket 2.35:1-Xbox One S- HTPC JRiver MC24
Marantz av7702 - Crestron CNAMPX-12x60 Fully Bridged to 6x220 - 2_Crown Xls 2000's
Crown Xls 1500 - Qsc RMX 1450 - Qsc RMX 850 - 2_Inuke 3kDSP's - Inuke 6kDSP
Speakers}7.4.4 Atmos DIYSoundGroup HTM-12's, Volt-8's
Subs}8 SI HT-18 v.2's SBA 11hz Ported IB-Nr Fld 2_PA460 MBM's-UM18 FMarty-2_Buttkicker's

Last edited by biga6761; 05-02-2018 at 11:57 AM.
biga6761 is offline  
post #41955 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 11:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,703
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6348 Post(s)
Liked: 5683
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschmoldt View Post
Can any owners of the S1500 give me their opinions on the performance of this sub. I recently discovered PSA and am itching to try out them out. it would be paired with a small system klipsch rp-150 and rp-250 that I use mainly for music and tv. This might be too big and drown out the smaller bookshelves. Are these subs fast and accurate or loud and proud? thanks for your input in advance
Yes.


ahblaza, basshead81 and Hopinater like this.
Alan P is offline  
post #41956 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 12:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2857 Post(s)
Liked: 3583
Quote:
Originally Posted by biga6761 View Post
I have measured the effects of lowering the LPF of LFE in my system with REW and the effect is subtle. As you guys know crossovers are not brick walls, so lowering the LPF of LFE doesn't cause content to be lost as I have seen it theorised by some( not in this thread). From my measurments, what happens is the high end of the sub band freqs(70-150hz or so) are rolled off at a faster rate than it does when left at 120hz. This roll off rate remains the same as far as the crossover order but just starts to roll off at a lower freq.

Meaning if you leave the LPF of LFE at 120hz the response will start to roll off around say 105hz or so and be down 6-10db by 150hz where if you lower the LPF of LFE to say 90hz the upper end of the response will start to roll off around 80hz and be down 6-10db by 130hz or so. This has the effect of lowering the upper bass range's total output by between 2-10db overall between 70hz and 150hz. Just as Subacabra had a boomy peak in his upper bass, by lowering the LPF of LFE to 90hz instead of 120hz he most likely reduced that peak by a few db giving a more balanced low freq presentation and removing the boom.

Most times the boom comes from the combo of the main speakers and sub response combining around and above the crossover points of each the sub and speakers. By lowering the LPF of LFE you lower the output of the subs enough around and above the speakers crossover to remove the boom and give a flatter crossover point response therefore removing the boom. ( this is considering you have done the sub distance tweak to maximize the output and flatness around the crossover point giving the best blend of the subs and speakers but still have issues with boom around said crossover point)



Weather or not you should lower the LPF of LFE is completely system and room dependent meaning experimentation is key. If you lower it and find your system to sound better you can leave it there and be confident you are not throwing away upper bass content, you are simply playing back that content above say 80-100hz at a lower level than you were with the LPF of LFE at 120hz. Anyone can verify this by measuring it with REW as I did.



Whether or not some receiver brands change the content sent to the heights or surrounds(or any speakers for that matter) by changing the LPF of LFE I can't say for sure, but IME this is not an issue(at least for D&M units) from the measurements I have taken in my rig. Because running my LPF of LFE at anything different than 120hz doesn't change any measurements other than the subs and the way the speakers blend with the sub at their crossover point. Again this is where measuring and experimentation is best to verify how changing the LPF of LFE effects the crossover blend with the speakers but our ears are also very good measurement devices and if you like the sound of your system with the LPF of LFE lower than 120hz but can't measure it's effect that's totally up to you and is just fine. It is you who has to listen to it anyway.



If anyone has measured different behavior with their gear I default to them but this is the behavior I have measured in my system using the 7702. Hope this helps and feel free to reach out if I can clarify anything any better for you or if you have any other question I can possibly answer.



Cheers fellow bass junkies.


Thanks for the explanation. I am on it . Have a Denon 4300H.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
biga6761 likes this.

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
post #41957 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 12:34 PM
Member
 
mdameron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 183
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 104
I have a 15V in two different setups in my house. Love them. Awhile back I added Y-splitters on the back of my subs to use both the inputs, in order to get the auto-on to work better. Because of the additional input voltage, I had to turn the gain down on the sub amps quite a bit. All the way down to the 8-9 o'clock position. That allowed me to keep the trim levels in the AVR in the negatives. It sounded decent. I ended up just leaving the subs on anyway because this didn't really fix it, but I don't care.

Then a couple weeks back I read some posts on here regarding amp gain which caused me to do some experimenting. What I have found is that I enjoy the overall sound MUCH better if I use just a single RCA input on the amp and have the gain at 12-1 o'clock position. This typically puts the Audyssey sub trim about about -11.5, which I boost about 6db, plus enable Dynamic EQ. It seems much louder and fuller this way compared to the y-splitter + low amp gain + similar post-audyssey trim adjustments.

Anyone else notice something like this? On paper the two configurations should sound the same, but I have been made a believer. I did this in the family room, and noticed the improvement on basic TV and kids' movies. Then I went to the movie room and did the same, and noticed a big improvement there too. I didn't notice the change when I added the y-splitters because I was constantly tweaking, so I never really had a "baseline" before I added the y-splitter. I finally left it alone for several months after adding the y-splitter, just enjoying the sound. So now I really notice the change for the better.

Denon 1911
LCR: Polk RTiA7, CSiA6
Front height: 8" Monoprice in-ceiling
Rear: 6.5" Monoprice in-ceiling
Sub: PSA 15V x2

Last edited by mdameron; 05-02-2018 at 12:46 PM.
mdameron is offline  
post #41958 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 01:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,732
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3502 Post(s)
Liked: 10856
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I had an additional thought, I’ve been doing a lot of testing between my V3601 and my v1801. I ultimately have the subs only half a decibel off according to Audyssey. So let’s call them equal for now as far as this goes. I have done a lot of listening and it seems like whatever I can throw at the V3601, the V1801 can handle. As most of you know I’m a pretty big bass head and like a lot of heavy music but I can’t seem to find the limit to v1801 and even though the V3601 plays about 4 to 5 dB louder, The smaller brother just doesn’t want to quit. I had the very first of the v3601 out there and I feel like the DSP inside of the v1801 sub is a little bit different, even though it’s only a single driver. That’s pure speculation, I have some tests and things to suggest that’s the case but I really don’t know for sure. Not that it matters but if any changes were made, it’s only for the positive. Looking back, I would love to have four of the V1801 spread around my room. I really can’t get any port noise out of those things and I sure as hell have tried. At any rate, I’m satisfied.
That's really cool that the little brother is keeping right up with it's big brother. I have all the bass I need but reports like this reignite my desire to put V1801's near field flanking my couch. It would be total overkill but it would be fun.
David Charles likes this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #41959 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 03:13 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,268
Mentioned: 345 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5482 Post(s)
Liked: 10460
^^^

Coming back to the issue of where to set the LPF of LFE, I happened to come across a series of posts on the subject from 2014. The final one in this sequence is from Mark Seaton. This is from page 526 of the JTR Speaker Thread:



Originally Posted by beastaudio

Quote: Originally Posted by Bunga99

Yep....and few other respected members such as Mark Seaton, Craig John, FilmMixer.

I've tried 120hz and 80hz on the LFE channel and in my room it sounds better with it set at 80hz. YMMV



Agree with that all I do, but you gotta think, if Filmixer and the likes of him are already filtering out above 80hz, by the time that mix gets to the end-user, there already isn't much above to worry about, so the reason to knock it down is that much less important. I will try and experiment with it when I get around to measuring more tonight.


(Mark):

A quick jump in here... Point missed.

Lowering the .1 (LFE) channel low pass (not tied to speaker crossover) becomes less an issue when running subs at perfectly matched levels with mains. As you raise the subwoofer level above a neutral balance, shading/tilting down the upper end makes more and more sense.

Look at the graphic from Craig John's post again:


For a moment forget the roll off an just look at the *difference* between the green & orange curves. The two curves are parallel above the blue line (120Hz), and they converge near 40Hz. Between there is a smooth tapering which makes for a shelf filter. In the case of this 8th order filter, the maximum cut of the shelf is about 8dB as seen between the two curves at 120Hz, with about 4dB of cut around 80Hz. A 100Hz setting makes for about 1/2 those cut values on a similar shape shelf filter.

In many cases, this helps allow for the amped up bass setting while better tapering and transitioning back to the main speakers.

As I and others have posted, this is simply a matter of final "seasoning to taste" in the same manner we might give a modest or aggressive rise to the subwoofer response itself.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...hread-526.html


To paraphrase what Mark is saying, the more that we boost the bass, the more sense it can make to roll-off the LFE channel a little more with a lower LPF. But, it's still just a YMMV issue.
jamiebosco, ahblaza and biga6761 like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-02-2018 at 03:20 PM.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #41960 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 04:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,732
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3502 Post(s)
Liked: 10856
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Charles View Post
I would honestly buy duel v1801. I can’t imagine many scenarios where that won’t suffice. Wait till you get a mutual coupling effect, you will be blown out of the water on much louder of sounds (providing you set them up properly).
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
+1 to the post above for dual V1801 coming from someone who has dual V1801 and from someone who has a V3601 and a V1801. Can’t get more authentic recommendation than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
dual V1801 should be enough subwoofage for all but the largest rooms.
I agree with all these guys and everyone else who have suggested dual V1801's. They give you plenty of bass now and they will also give you plenty of bass in the future unless you move into a stadium somewhere.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #41961 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 04:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
imureh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2857 Post(s)
Liked: 3583
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

Coming back to the issue of where to set the LPF of LFE, I happened to come across a series of posts on the subject from 2014. The final one in this sequence is from Mark Seaton. This is from page 526 of the JTR Speaker Thread:

To paraphrase what Mark is saying, the more that we boost the bass, the more sense it can make to roll-off the LFE channel a little more with a lower LPF. But, it's still just a YMMV issue.
Very interesting, so I have added this to the to do list:

1. Experiment with 80hz LPF for LFE
2. Try to open UMIK again to change gain setting....
3. if successful on 2, run compression sweeps and measure my normal listening levels to assess when hearing loss is likely to set in...

Mike: Do I need to run calibration after changing that the LPF for LFE? I wouldn't think so but confirming

Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser, 2 BK LFE
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
imureh is offline  
post #41962 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 05:02 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Does PSA have an upgrade program?...I didn't see it on the website but in case I missed it. I see alot if comments about 'upgrading' PSA subs but maybe others are just selling to upgrade. Thanks.
aschmoldt is offline  
post #41963 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 05:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,732
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3502 Post(s)
Liked: 10856
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

There is always going to be more out there. If you bought a Cap 4000 today, there might be a Cap 6000 in two years, to tempt you again. So, I think that you really need to approach this question from the standpoint of how much output will actually satisfy you, unless you really do just want to have the biggest subwoofer currently in the marketplace.


Regards,
Mike
Mike your post makes a great point that I would like to hit on briefly. Part of the fun in these subwoofer threads is the excitement that gets generated when someone buys a new sub and then posts about their their awesome experience. I mean, who doesn't like a good story about pictures falling off the wall or windows flexing two stories up? Of course this excitement creates a want for more subwooferage in others... and some may even end up going out and upgrading so they can make pictures fall of their walls as well. All of this is fine, it's what I love about you guys.

BUT, before you go out and buy a bigger subwoofer you really owe it to yourself to make sure you have tapped into all the power you already have with the subs in your arsenal. Case in point, in the last two weeks I've tweaked two different aspects of my setup (taking very little time or effort). But it sounds to my ear that I've actually added another subwoofer. Obviously I had untapped potential just sitting there and changing a seating position and few settings brought out that potential.

And now today we've had multiple educational posts regarding LFE crossovers as well as other things that may help to bring out even more potential in some of our setups (great stuff today guys). Once we know we are using our current subs to their full potential then we can make an informed decision regarding whether we are satisfied or not with the output. If we don't do this we are just throwing money at our dissatisfaction by buying more and bigger subs.

Some guys like Basshead are great at realizing the full potential at their finger tips and they have all they could want... I think that's why they are so able to resist the upgrade bug. Of course some guys have an addiction (like me) and just like to buy new subwoofers. But I'm better now, I haven't bought a sub since October.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

Last edited by Hopinater; 05-02-2018 at 05:11 PM.
Hopinater is offline  
post #41964 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 05:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,732
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3502 Post(s)
Liked: 10856
Quote:
Originally Posted by aschmoldt View Post
Does PSA have an upgrade program?...I didn't see it on the website but in case I missed it. I see alot if comments about 'upgrading' PSA subs but maybe others are just selling to upgrade. Thanks.
Not officially but they will allow you to trade in a sub for credit towards another sub. So they do but you won't find it on the site, you will have to talk with Tom. I've been a frequent user of this unofficial program.
iceatola, fastninja76 and Jsnow17 like this.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #41965 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 05:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
David Charles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Amherst, Ohio
Posts: 1,288
Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked: 1846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Not officially but they will allow you to trade in a sub for credit towards another sub. So they do but you won't find it on the site, you will have to talk with Tom. I've been a frequent user of this unofficial program.


Yeah i wonder what is next PSA sub wise


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ahblaza and Hopinater like this.
David Charles is offline  
post #41966 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 06:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ahblaza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Steeler Country
Posts: 4,006
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2459 Post(s)
Liked: 3402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
That's really cool that the little brother is keeping right up with it's big brother. I have all the bass I need but reports like this reignite my desire to put V1801's near field flanking my couch. It would be total overkill but it would be fun.
Go for it Jim, you didn't actually say overkill, maybe too much "Hops" tonight my friend............. I really miss my three V01s...................
Hopinater likes this.
ahblaza is offline  
post #41967 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 06:28 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,268
Mentioned: 345 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5482 Post(s)
Liked: 10460
Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Very interesting, so I have added this to the to do list:

1. Experiment with 80hz LPF for LFE
2. Try to open UMIK again to change gain setting....
3. if successful on 2, run compression sweeps and measure my normal listening levels to assess when hearing loss is likely to set in...

Mike: Do I need to run calibration after changing that the LPF for LFE? I wouldn't think so but confirming
Hi Ray,

As you thought, there is no need to rerun Audyssey when changing any of the settings in your AVR. Those settings are all separate from the software program that creates filters for the various channels.

Regards,
Mike
ahblaza and biga6761 like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #41968 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:19 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,268
Mentioned: 345 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5482 Post(s)
Liked: 10460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Mike your post makes a great point that I would like to hit on briefly. Part of the fun in these subwoofer threads is the excitement that gets generated when someone buys a new sub and then posts about their their awesome experience. I mean, who doesn't like a good story about pictures falling off the wall or windows flexing two stories up? Of course this excitement creates a want for more subwooferage in others... and some may even end up going out and upgrading so they can make pictures fall of their walls as well. All of this is fine, it's what I love about you guys.

BUT, before you go out and buy a bigger subwoofer you really owe it to yourself to make sure you have tapped into all the power you already have with the subs in your arsenal. Case in point, in the last two weeks I've tweaked two different aspects of my setup (taking very little time or effort). But it sounds to my ear that I've actually added another subwoofer. Obviously I had untapped potential just sitting there and changing a seating position and few settings brought out that potential.

And now today we've had multiple educational posts regarding LFE crossovers as well as other things that may help to bring out even more potential in some of our setups (great stuff today guys). Once we know we are using our current subs to their full potential then we can make an informed decision regarding whether we are satisfied or not with the output. If we don't do this we are just throwing money at our dissatisfaction by buying more and bigger subs.

Some guys like Basshead are great at realizing the full potential at their finger tips and they have all they could want... I think that's why they are so able to resist the upgrade bug. Of course some guys have an addiction (like me) and just like to buy new subwoofers. But I'm better now, I haven't bought a sub since October.
Thanks, Jim! I completely agree with you. I think that the majority of us who post on this and a couple of other subwoofer threads have more subwoofer headroom and low-frequency extension than we will ever fully use. I know that I have far more bass available than I can actually stay in the room with. And, as you said, there are usually some additional sub placements or settings we can experiment with that will give us audible and tactile improvements with our existing components.

But, it's still easy to be attracted by the next shiny object that comes along. That's where we need some of the self-discipline I referred to in my earlier post. Unfortunately, it's much easier to advise others to have self-discipline than it is to practice it ourselves.

But, with abstinence since last October, I would say that you are well on the road to recovery. Just 11 more steps.

Regards,
Mike
ahblaza, gbreda, Hopinater and 2 others like this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #41969 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 6,732
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3502 Post(s)
Liked: 10856
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

But, with abstinence since last October, I would say that you are well on the road to recovery. Just 11 more steps.

Regards,
Mike
Yep I'm almost there, just 11 more steps. But I think I was wrong. I think my S1801 was delivered in November so I'm not quite as far along the road to rehabilitation as I thought. The real test will be if PSA comes out with something crazy new and powerful and compact enough to allow for multiple placement options... like that prototype they were playing around with. If something like that comes out I will need you guys to talk me down from jumping in on the pre order.

LOL... Yeah right like that would ever happen. This thread is not the place to hang out if you're trying to RESIST buying a subwoofer... Bunch of bass addicted enablers that we are.

Subwoofers: PSA TV36 iPal X2 ...Speakers: PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210C Center- PSA MT110SR's Surrounds - RSL C34E Atmos... Motion Actuators: Crowson Shadow 8 - X2
Video: Samsung UN65KS9000 4K SUHD - Oppo UDP-203... AVR:Denon X4400... Gaming: XBOX ONE S

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences
Hopinater is offline  
post #41970 of 52321 Old 05-02-2018, 07:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 945 Post(s)
Liked: 1017
I've been taking all the advice I've received from yall and I'm still processing everything. Very thankful for everyone's help!

As it was mentioned, today was a great day for us with alot of Bass knowledge.
Figured I'd share something with y'all that pertains to the sub gain/avr trim topic. Saw this month's ago but remembered it with all this talk today.

https://youtu.be/Ic_ZItjm7g0
mthomas47 and Hopinater like this.
GeoJustGeo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
chuffitychuffchuff , chuffmaster , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , hr chuff'n'stuff , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , psa , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , s3000i , s7201 , tv36 , v1500 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off